1548 - Father/Son: Jeremy Lee, Sports Cards Live, and his father Harvey

Foreign. Welcome, Dr. James Beckett, sports Card Insights here with Jeremy Lee and his dad, Harvey the First. Thanks, Sponsors. Top spinning in the upper deck, Heritage Auctions, Hugs and Scott Auctions, Mike Stadium Sports Cards, Burbank sports cards, compse.com and Beckett Media, Beckett Grading, Beckett Authentication. Before I even get started, Jeremy and I a long time ago had a conversation about sponsors and advertisers. And this was early on, and I had initially gotten these seven sponsors that I wanted to get. And Jeremy said, I think I'd get some advertisers of some sponsors. And I said, in my opinion, if they sponsor you, you just have to say nice things about them occasionally. But if they're an advertiser like hellofresh or Quince, you have to read their copy, which you do. And I will say this, Jeremy, I'm thinking about Quints, and my wife was way before that a hellofresh customer and very satisfied. So, again, the show is sponsored, not advertised. And it's great to be with you guys. Welcome, Harvey. I got to spend some time with you at the Toronto Sports Expo. One of the questions I sometimes ask the fathers and sons over these years is, what would your ideal hobby day be together? Was it what you experienced in Toronto five weeks ago, or have you had other positive experiences where you guys have enjoyed the hobby together? At the national, for example, it's important to understand that when I go there, there's a bit of social time and a bit of father together time. And I just watch Jeremy and the way he behaves and the way he does his business. And I've learned a great deal about the way he does things and his attitude towards the hobby. But aside from that, it also becomes an evening out, socialization, understanding the community of the sports cards industry. So I enjoy it because if all I have to do is really just be around and watch him, I take pride in that. Do you have other communities that you're part of, Harvey? For many years, I've been involved with the Rotary foundation in my city of Winnipeg. In the 90s, I was involved with the Rotary foundation and I did some community work. I did some auctions there. I also did some work for scholarship trust funds, involved with setting young people all across the world as diplomatic individuals. I was the chairman of that, and I really enjoyed that very much. It taught me a lot about young people and it taught me a lot about attitudes, different personalities. It was really quite an engaging experience. And I worked with some very good people in those years, and they asked me to be the chairman. I was Quite honored to do that. My dad did something like that as well, and it was very enriching. But as we get into the hobby, insights on that, how was that different or the same in terms of those communities? Was there a lot of esprit de corps or a lot of competitive spirit like there sometimes can be in the sports card industry? There's always competitive spirit in any organization. It's an ecological system. And I know that the sports card industry is like that also. I was just doing something I wanted to do and contribute, but so I want to move up the ladder in the hierarchical part of an organization. Do you realize that your son Jeremy is a peacemaker in the hobby? Has certainly been a voice and a voice of reason. Although I'm talking about Jeremy as if you're not here, but you have gone on a few rants lately. But other than that, he is trying to help people enjoy the hobby and so sounds like you did that in your sphere as well. With the Rotary. I watched Jeremy, and in all relationships that he's had, I've noted they've always ended up with diplomacy. He was able to walk away from things and from various individuals with always a good attitude. And the people he was involved with were also enriched by that kind of behavior. So I was very proud of that. Jeremy, you're a real voice in the hobby. You have your own voice, but you give an amplification and clarity to other voices in the hobby. And I certainly appreciate that about you. Sports cards is a lifestyle, and it ought to be a lifestyle that has enjoyment for everybody. And you're doing that. I'm just trying to figure out, Jeremy, the apple falls very far from the tree here. As I spent time with you guys last month, that was enjoyable for me to watch Harvey watch you in action. You were holding court there. It was terrific. I appreciate that. Jim. My father is a very social person. Whenever we're out at a restaurant having dinner, when we are together in the same city, he's always seeing people he knows, especially when we're in Winnipeg, where I'm originally from and where he currently lives. I go visit him there once or twice a year and we'll go to one of our favorite restaurants there, Ray and Jerry's. A lot of people in the sports world know it because it's right near the old Winnipeg Arena. But he always knows people and people come say hello to him, and he introduces me to people he's known for years. When you say, does the apple fall far from the tree? I think I probably picked up some of that from him. I picked up that both of you guys are really smart, but you also have a personality that's noticeable. It cares about other people, both you guys. So I'm just wondering, each one of you see that in the other. Both of you have been successful. Is it more your intelligence or your personality, or is it just wrapped together? Let me go first here, Doug, because I think it's a great question. My father is a physician. He's been practicing medicine for my whole life, and he takes a lot of care in his patients. He loves the challenge of what he does. He's not a young man anymore, but from what I can see and what he tells me and just how much he works to this day, he approaches his career like I approach the hobby. It's truly his interest. It's his passion, Jim, just like with you and me with sports cards, he approaches medicine the way you and I approach sports cars, with passion, invigoration, and the challenge of it. He loves the puzzle, putting it together, the research, all these different things that he does. It's inspiring. And as I put in the acknowledgments in pops and comps, he challenges me not just directly, but also by setting an example. So, yeah, the way he approaches his patients is sort of similar to the way we might approach the hobby with wanting to leave it a better place. So you actually named the book after Harvey. He's the pops in Pops and Pops. You can say that. You could definitely say that. It's got double meaning. Definitely. Harvey, your turn. When Jeremy said he was an accountancy and he just didn't really have a complete passion for doing accountancy because it's a numbers game and it can be boring. And it depends. It depends what kind of accountancy you're doing. He initially trained in tax accountancy, and then he went off to various places and had many experiences. But I think the important thing is he came to me one day and said, I have a passion for this industry. And Confucius once said, if you love your job, it's not a job. If you love your job, it's something you want to do your whole life, and it doesn't matter. It's a holiday, it's not going to work. It's enjoying it, and it brings you socialization, and it brings you financial reward, it brings you satisfaction, and it also brings you new friends. That's really synthesized in a real package. Jeremy has found that. He keeps telling me when we go to these shows, the Expo, he has friends, lots of Friends. And I could see that if you're good at math in this industry and you're good with people, you're probably going to be very successful. But did I sense that you had zero heartburn? Harvey, when Jeremy was contemplating leaving the accountant full time position and going all in with the hobby, did that strike you as you were excited for him or did you have any trepidation at all? I would have to say that Jeremy is pretty intelligent in making decisions. His judgment is good and he knew exactly what he wanted. He had been around a lot of different industries and a lot of business experiences in his field. He knew what he was doing, he had an idea. And he equates this as not just a business but as a life. And when he said he had a passion for it, I said, go for it. And I've seen at his home, I've seen the way he handles himself at these shows. He loves it from what I can see. And therefore right now I have no trepidation, but I did have some trepidation at the get. But Jeremy, what you're doing now is greatly expanded from when you left and started. You were mainly a podcaster, a YouTuber, and now you're a publisher, you're convener, a lot of different things that have really expanded your personal brand and your sports cars live brand. You're doing all these auction result shows, collaborating with a lot of people and a lot of companies. Did you see those stepping stones or you just said, if I'm all in with the hobby, there'll be opportunities that present themselves that I'll have time to pursue, or was there a master plan? There was no master plan at all, Jim. This is not a path that I think I'd be able to map out moving forward. Starting sports cards live and the live stream interviews. It just happened by chance, really. A very impulsive decision kicked that whole thing off. You mentioned earlier we talked together about advertising. When I was approached by some of the first sponsors or advertisers, I didn't know how to do a deal like that. So I reached out to you early and asked for your advice and you gave it to me and that really helped set off the pathway. I continued on. A few years went by and I was approached by companies to represent them, do YouTube video shows under their brand and that opened up a new revenue stream from there and it opened up my eyes to what the potential was. Then writing the book Pops and comps was another thing. Very impulsive decision. That morning I woke up, I had no idea that later that night I would start writing a book. It was not on my plan. And then that happened. The same thing with the Hobby Spectrum project. It just spawned out of the content we were discussing on Sports Cards live on the various panels. And so, no, it's a simple question, but it doesn't really have such a simple answer. But I don't plan very far ahead. I'm working on another project right now that you're involved in that I think will be announced this week publicly. And that's another thing that just was an idea that popped into my head one night during one of my walks. I think what I am good at doing right now is executing on ideas. And one of the reasons I'm good at that is because I have some great relationships with some great people in the industry who are willing to listen to me and hear out these ideas. And when we're all on the same page, we can start executing together. So I love the collaborative aspect of what I do. If you've seen Jim, My Sports Cards Live Saturday Night show, the live streams have grown to be more than really just me interviewing somebody. Now we have a crew, we have regulars, and they're all part of Sports Cards Live as well. And it just comes back to the theme. Sports Cards is a lifestyle, and we just keep on going. I don't know what's next, except that I'm going to continue doing what I enjoy doing. I say this in jest, but you have been two timing me because all this time I thought when you were doing your walks, you were listening to my podcast. And now I find out that you're doing the walks and you're coming up with new business ideas. So which is it? I listen to you. The problem with you, Jim, is that your podcasts are too short. So my walks outlast your podcast. So I'm not too timing you. Maybe I am, because I listen to your podcast and then I listen to other people's as well. If I meet Jim and Jeremy. One thing I've noticed about Jeremy, he tries new things, and like me, I go for long walks too. And I exercise every day. And when I'm exercising, it keeps my brain fluid and free and ideas come. Jeremy does the same thing, which I think is great, and he'll come up with new ideas, but he knows how to adapt and he knows how to move with the flow and he knows where the gradient is, and he seems to move in the right direction. Another little bit deeper question for both of y' all in your careers has being In Canada been a positive or a negative or a neutral because it's different outside the United States. You're not far away and there's no enmity. I don't think certainly probably an advantage for hockey, but just in the field we're in, and you were in medicine, Harvey, to what extent are there advantages or disadvantages of being Canadian? I think there's a balance. No matter where you are, you have to find it. In medicine, we have more of a socialized system because the government seems to do all the funding, not all of it. There's some private enterprise. There's a difference. And I've seen the good and the bad on both sides. You just have to find a balance where you are a homeostasis, a balanced position where you really can make a contribution. I would say that the United States, with research and development has been outstanding. They're having changes because of the administrative things that have gone on. But really, when it comes down to it, I train in Ann Arbor, Michigan, and being in Ann Arbor, I saw the United States, I saw medicine there. Intellectually, the same thing, but it's a different environment, different drive politically. First of all, Ann Arbor, I remember we lived there when I was like five or six years old for a year. So I have some vague memories of Ann Arbor. For me being in Canada, for what I do, Jim, and even what you do with your podcast, I don't think it really matters where you are. We've got people creating sports card content in Europe, in Australia, in Asia, U.S. canada, South America, everywhere. And unless these people tell you where they are and their accents don't give it away, you might not even know where they are located. I had a meeting just two days ago with somebody wanted to inquire about advertising with me. And he's in Canada as well. But until I told him I was also in Canada, he had no idea that I was located here. So I think we're very fortunate with technology. And here we are, we're all thousands of miles away from each other. I'm 1500 miles away from my father, and we're each a couple thousand miles away from you. Yet here we are meeting on this screen. Without technology, we wouldn't be doing what we're doing. And I think that the technology just makes the hobby. It's like the economy's become global, so is the hobby. And you mentioned maybe from a hockey perspective, there's an advantage of being in Canada. I try not to paint myself into that hockey corner. I collect all sports and non sport for Me, it's more of a challenge than a benefit, I would say. And the challenge is as simple as having to cross the border every time I want to go down to a card show or to visit people in the United States. But even that is not that much of a challenge. I guess the biggest challenge is the value of our dollar compared to the American dollar. That has nothing to do with what I'm doing. That's actually a benefit for me because many of my partners and sponsors are located in the United States and I invoice them in US Dollars. So that's a benefit, but I guess the opposite of that. In Chicago at the National, I'm buying cards in US Dollars. It cost me a bit more as an American going over at the Toronto Sports Expo, I can tell you Canadian dollar was a huge benefit to me. My eyes just popped out of my head. I saw this stuff and I saw the price tags and I thought, this is a pretty good deal for American dollars. It's a fabulous deal for Canadian dollars, but I hope it is. The world is shrinking, the hobby world is shrinking, and that's a good thing. How do you separate true collectible value from short term market hype? That's a tough one. The way people have done that in the past is go toward vintage. Go to stuff that's been around a long time that stood the test of time. A lot of times the short term hype stuff is newer, the latest shiny thing. But in this industry you don't have to separate people self select Harvey. So they, they go where they want to go. When I was doing price guides and trying to track everything back 40, 50 years ago, you just would get the price inputs and make it as accurate as you could. One of the key indicators you use to judge whether a card, books or collection is underpriced or overpriced. I should do that every month. You can do it philosophically in your own mind. I think that's too high, Tom, or what. We always try to do it empirically. It's too high if it's not selling, it's too low if it's selling like hotcakes. And the market has gotten much more responsive. It's moving very quickly now. It's never moved as fast as it is now. So the market corrects. If something is perceived as being too cheap, it gets swooped up and if it's too high, it sits there. Now, dealers are very quick to increase their prices, but they're slow to lower their prices because they're still hoping somebody's going to come and buy something at the pre injury price or before the guy lost the big game. It's very dynamic and that's part of the excitement and that's part of the lifestyle. Fifty years ago, the hobby was more about vintage. You could do annual price guides and even monthly price guides. I had people tell me 40, 47 years ago, we don't need that. Prices don't move that fast. Just once a year is fine now, once a day wouldn't be enough. What mistakes do intelligent buyers still make when they think they are buying value? Oh, good question. See, Harvey, why don't you ask your son? Either one of you answer that question. I just complimented Jeremy. He's a numbers guy. That's a people person. These people that think they're intelligent buyers, they may be intelligent one way or the other, they may be intelligent that they know all the cops, they know all the numbers, but they can't read the room, they can't read the people or have any sense of where the hobby is going. So to think that you're not omniscient, but think that you're brilliant and that you could predict the future is a recipe for a fall. Jeremy gives voice through Chris McGill, Chris Hoage and many others that there's just inexplicable micro and macro elements that make it impossible to predict with certainty what's going to happen. That's why there's auctions out there, because you don't know. You put it up and it might go high and it might go low. It's going to go for what it goes for if the auction is properly advertised. Jerry, it's a really good question. Mistakes that intelligent people still make. The world of sports cards, it's unlike other areas, hobbies or investment areas, where people spend money because there is emotion involved. And it can be difficult to separate your emotion from maybe your financial goals. Let's say because we like and are passionate about our sports teams, certain athletes. I think bias is something inherent in all of us, even if we like to think it isn't just because of who we are and the path, the journey we've all been on. So as intelligent as you are, I think bias and emotion are still there. They're lurking and they can cause you to go in a direction that may not provide the optimal result. Risk tolerance is another factor that comes into play. If I had a higher tolerance for risk, I think I could have had better performing sports card purchases over the years. Not to say they haven't been good, but I think I could have had better if I had a higher tolerance for risk. And if you are truly intelligent, you know what you don't know, or at least you understand that there's a lot you don't know. In that case, you're probably having to outsource some of the judgments you're making as to what is the right card, condition of the card, these sorts of things. Sometimes you gotta go with your gut, especially if you do have some insights. I go with my gut. I try to reduce the noise coming in from the outside, focus in on what's really good signal instead of noise. People who are intelligent, I just think all of these things are factors, they have to balance. Even if you just know that you are biased and you know that you have emotion and you know what your level of risk tolerance is and you understand that you don't know everything. I think you can make the best decisions possible. But even then, like you said, Jim, it's a moving target. Always in the hobby. It's impossible to predict the future. But all you can do is the best you can. The nice thing is, if you are collecting what you like, at the end of the day, you should be happy with it, regardless of how it performs.