THWC 407: The Greatest of All Time

What's up, everybody? I'm with Cage. Episode 407, brought to you by Arena Club by card data use code Cage. Save yourself a couple bucks and buy the Philly Show. Oh, you guys a good episode. Oh, you guys a good one, man. You know, it's. It's a lot of fun out there in sports Today, Thursday the 18th, as I record this, there are millions of people in the Canyons of Heroes for the first time since, I guess, the Giants 2011 team, right? They won the championship and had a parade. So, you know, I think the Giants did it a couple years before that. Then the. The Yankees were there in 09. It's been forever for the, for the Knicks, but you're gonna have, you know, millions of people there, you know, parade downtown Manhattan. And, you know, at the same time, we got to watch some great soccer football. And, you know, I titled this episode the Greatest of All Time. And you expect me to come on here and talk about Lionel Messi and the hat trick. I mean, what a great day of soccer there you had, you know, starting it off with Mbappe scoring two goals, and then Holland scoring two goals, and then Messi coming out after those two guys are scoring three goals. You know, that's. I'm not. I'm not gone yet. One of the crazy things in that game was the, the. The goalie for the Algerian team is son. I mean, that was a fun thing to see because you got Messi playing against the sun. He played against the dad when he was 18, and now he's 39 or going to be 39 and playing against the sun. Interesting stuff. But no, today's not about that. Today. It's funny. I've gone down a rabbit hole the last couple of days. I bought a lot of cards, actually, but we talked about that. My son, who always opens my eyes to things, it's just. It's crazy how this works, right? He has this website on his phone. I don't think it's on an app or a game or anything, but it's basically 8020.com now, some of you guys have probably seen this. If you haven't, you will. Or you'll look it up. And it's basically, build a team. Build a team that would go 82 and, oh in a season. And it's random. It spins the team and the era. You know what I mean? So you get a random team and a random 60s, 70s, 80s, 90s. And what's funny about that is I've been having a lot of conversations recently with a lot of hobby people, and I'm going to mash the two together right now. What it has opened my eyes to is the best team that we've been able to build so far, 78 and 4. And it's funny because, you know, we want to, like, restart it when we don't start off good. And start off good basically means get Wilt Chamberlain, because there's an algorithm that you got to get a certain number of points, but, you know, we've got it to where our team is scoring 140 points a game, you know, and the funny part is, by doing this, it lets you look at the team and all of their great players for that decade, and you see, you know, the Lakers. Do you want to use Kobe? Do you want to use, you know, Shaq, you know, the Maurice Lakers? Luca actually fills the stats better than LeBron did as a Laker. You know, it's towards the end of the LeBron career. You know, Michael Jordan 80s versus Michael Jordan 90s. But what has been the biggest eye opener is the stats from the 60s and from the 70s especially, and how inflated they are and how crazy they are, even though in the 60s they didn't even track things like blocks and steals and that kind of stuff. But you take a look at, like, Wilt Chamberlain stats and. And, you know, other guys that, you know, my son is learning who Bob McAdoo is. You know what I mean? And, you know, it's. It's an interesting thing to watch because. Or. Or to look at because, you know, we talk about stats all the time. We talk about awards, we talk about MVPs, we talk about that stuff. And there is this recency bias. And I'm going to talk about two conversations that I've been having over DMS that just have. Have dominated the conversation. And if you do a sports card talk show, this should be your topic. If you. You talk about the crossover later, Josh and, and. And Chris for your, you know, your next episode. You know, you know, these are the two topics. This is what's on everyone's mind. Besides what inning are we in and when's this whole thing gonna come crashing down? Right? The two topics I get, number one, I collect a lot of vintage cards. I collect a lot of older cards, cards of people who aren't playing. Should I be selling them? Because is someone really going to care about Lefty Grove in a decade or two or three, the same way they did 20 years or 30 years ago? You know, my 33 Gowdy set is Filled with guys that nobody's going to care about. They will be a hundred year old cards in a couple years. You know, is there a significance to them? Even though the players are not somebody people care about and that's an important thing. And it leads into the second topic, which is a goat conversation. And this, you know, for lack of a better way of saying it, it stems from the Wemby conversation where, you know, Wemby's 22 and you know he didn't win. And you have a lot of idiot heads out there who are Kobe guys, but more LeBron guys and Jordan guys, especially the LeBron guys. A little nervous about, you know, Wemby coming in and, and wow, if you won A championship at 22, you know, and, and then he went on and won more, you know, what does that do? And you know, what I heard the most was, ah, Wendy, he can't be the goat. Webby can't be the goat now he lost in the finals. He can't be the goat. Officially, he can't be the goat. And you know, I've talked about this on the episodes before this about how, you know, most people ask now would put Tom Brady as the goat of the NFL over Joe Montana when Joe Montana was the undefeated in the Super Bowl. He's 4 no in the super bowl and Brady is not undefeated in Super Bowl. So, you know, I mean, it cuts both ways, right? You know, and I'm not arguing that Wemby's the goat. That is not the point of this. We're not going to talk about Wemby anymore. We're going to, we're going to, we're going to move this forward. But you understand the backdrop to those conversations and the reality is, what I want to talk to you about today is I'm guilty of it myself. It's falling in love with the current players, with the active players and not thinking about what happens to those cards, those investments, those pieces when they're no longer active, when you don't have the excitement. Right. You know, Messi is going to play this World cup and most likely be his last World Cup. He's gonna be, you know, in his 40s and you don't know whether he'll play. Maybe he will play. Who knows? You know, I mean, I don't want to say he won't. Maybe we'll play, but he won't be the player he is now. You know, Father time catches up to everyone. Everyone, trust me, it's catching up to me. How many? 50 in a couple of months and I'm feeling every day of it. I gotta tell you. I don't look it, but I feel it. So. But yeah, I mean it's, it's an interesting thing to think about, right? Because as I've moved my collection into all active players, I'm enjoying it, right? I like watching Otani mash home runs and pitch. I get another win last night and he comes out there and he has one bad inning and gave up a bunch of runs and the ERA goes up to like 1.4, which is still amazing. You know, I think second best ERA in the majors. And you know, I think he's what, seven and two now and he got the win. But you're like, oh man, he gave up a few runs. He's terrible. I mean, like, you know, because he set the bar so high and you know, the home run totals are going up. I think he's up to like 15 now. I like watching, but by the same token, we talk about this, I like watching Aaron Judge and then he gets hurt and all of a sudden the car values are not where they were a month ago. So, you know, there, it's a double edged sword, but it's not about injuries, it's not about, you know, current player versus versus former player. I actually did some research for this episode and it's important because we fall in love with the guys who are playing now because we watch them play and we watch them succeed. I put Ohtani in a different category for Judge in a different category because they've done it now. They're multi MVPs. Ohtani's won championships. I'm not talking about LeBron, right, because you know, he's won multiple championships. He will always be in that goat discussion, always be in the all time great conversation, right? But when we talk about people like buying Wimby cards, right, or buying whoever it was before Wimy or you know, buying the next great rookie in baseball or buying into Cooper Flag or buying into the, you know, these guys and spending the money that you spend. It's important for an old unk like me to go into some data with you and to go into some stories and to tell you about, you know, the guys that I loved or the guys that I learned about, the guys that I didn't know about. Some names you'll know, some names you might have heard of, but you, you'll be surprised about this. And kind of what I, what I wanted to pull out here was it started with Wilt, right? It started with Wilt. Because when I looked at his stats, I'm like, oh my goodness, it's great. People talking about, oh, Wemby can't be the goat. Well, I, I say, I, I, I did this in, in conversation over dm, I said, well, what if Wimy came out in the next three years and averaged 41, 47.1 points, 26.3 rebounds per game over three season stretch, including averaging over 50 a game in one of those seasons, right? Won multiple championships, multiple MVPs, you would be calling him the goat for the next three years. You couldn't touch a wimby card unless you were a billionaire. If he went out there and averaged 47.1 and 26.31 MVPs, championships average 50 a game, I mean, you'd be looking at him like, oh my God, this guy really is an alien. We've never seen anything like this. But you have. And while Wilt is considered a top 10 player, top five by many, not top five by others. Go check out some lists. You never hear him in the goat conversation, you know, and that's what Wilt Chamberlain did. But it's not just about Wilt, right? If, you know, we can compare it. Shaq. Everybody loves Shaq, but nobody's paying the crazy millions of dollars for Shaq's cards. Wemby has already had multiple cards sell for more than Shaq's cards have ever sold for, right? But shaq, in a three year period from 99 to 02, averaged 28, 6 12.4 rebounds, 2.6 blocks in the regular season and then in the playoffs. 35.1 points and 14.3 rebounds a game in the, in the finals and won three consecutive finals MVPs, which I talk about because I'm a Shack guy. You don't even, you know, you don't even hear about that. You don't think about that, right? But shaq was awesome. 99 to 2002, people were, you know, LeBron came and people got, you know, crazy about cards in 2003. Giannis. Giannis is a great example. He really is a great example. It's not even that long ago and he's an active player. You know, I remember talking about this with Andrew when he was co hosting the show and he's like, you got to get some, you got to invest in Giannis. He's the next thing. Look, he's already done it. He's so young. He's going to do this for the, Think about what his numbers are going to be, career numbers from that was like 2021, right? And his cards were expensive and they, they should have been. He averaged 28.4 points, 12.4 rebounds and 5.8 assists. Two MVPs, Defensive Player of the Year, and a Finals MVP with the championship. After that three year run, you were like, my God, Goodness, this guy's the new goat. He's going to be fantastic. He's going to be great. Well, what does the hobby think of Giannis right now? Great player, great guy, but nobody's putting him in the goat conversation. We're going to have discussions about whether he's going to be a top 50 NBA player of all time. But the point of it is, I want you to think about Giannis right now. Right? Think about Giannis right now and what you think of him. Are you running out to go buy his cards the same way you would run out to buy a Wemby card or Cooper flag card, whatever it is? No, but I'm going to tell you that after that three year run, 2021, from 18 to 21, Giannis was that guy. And I want you to think about what would happen if Wemby tops this year off with another two years or three years of scoring 30 points a game, 12 and change rebounds, six assists, two MVPs, a defensive player of the year. He already won a Finals mvp. People would be talking about him and paying through the nose for his cards. But guess what? That is what Giannis did. It's not even close to what Wilt did or what Shaq did, or Kareem, who from 70 to 73 averaged 33.1 points, 16.2 rebounds per game, two MVPs and an NBA championship during that three year run. Pretty crazy, right? People don't really talk about Kareem now. Lu Alcinder, they don't really talk about him. I mean, he's fantastic. You know, you heard his name because LeBron broke his scoring record, but you don't have people clamoring to get his cards. And it's not just basketball. That was the 820 that had me doing it. Right. But I mean, you guys have probably heard of Don Mattingly, because a lot of people who listen to the show are vintage baseball guys. And, you know, you've also heard me talk about him, one of my heroes growing up. He's all I had in 86, when the Mets won the championship and the Yankees were terrible. I got to meet Don Mattingly and talk to him for a little while, which was kind of cool, showing my, you know, My rookie card of him and you know, just, just chat with him. People outside of New York don't really think about Don Mattingly as anything. Nothing. You know, I mean, for New Yorker, he's a big deal and you know, he's been a pretty good manager. Now stepping in. But let me tell you, from 84 to 89, you know, when I was a kid, we're talking about when I was 7 to when I was 13, you know, like peak baseball fandom, cheer for your guy and your hero. That guy was the one of the most dominant players ever. He had a six year stretch like no one has ever seen and maybe no one ever will. He averaged 203 hits. That was his average across six seasons. 203 hits, 43 doubles, 114 ribies and a.327 batting average. He was the MVP. Top five in voting for the MVP in three consecutive seasons. Never won a championship because the Yankees were not that good in the 80s. I know that's hard to fathom, but I mean, think about the stats there. One year he batted.352 with 238 hits, 53 doubles, 31 home runs, 113 ribbies set Yankees franchise records for hits. And he was the leader in doubles and hits. I mean, guy batted 343, 324, 352, 327 and just put up numbers like you would not believe. The worst season was 110 RBIs. The best season was 145 RBIs. And this was, you know, a first baseman. This was, you know, but here's the thing. Even though he went on to be a six time All Star, nine time Gold Glove winner, and you know, won the MVP, finished with a career.307 batting average, which I think there are like six guys currently playing who have a.300 average right now, right? Nobody buys his cards, but in 89, wow. Donnie Baseball was the guy. Donnie Baseball was the guy. And you have to think about that, right? You have to think about, you know, even somebody who can go out there and put on a five or six year stretch. Mike Trout is a great example, right? I mean, Mike Trout is a, you know, these are guys who were on hall of Fame trajectories, cut short by injury, you name it. It doesn't just have to be injury, you know, I mean in the 80s, Maddenley had a first base rival, Keith Hernandez, who had a run from 79 to 86 where he averaged.311, had over.400 on base percentage eight straight Gold Gloves, won an MVP, Albert Bell. It's got some other stuff going on, but from 93 to 98. Have you even heard of Albert Bell? Look him up. Great videos, great, great clips of him. Guy was very different personality than Don Mattingly. I mean his six year peak, which is what I'll call it there, averaged 40 home runs, 120 RBIs with a.307 batting average. He had a bad hip. Stop playing at 34. So the career counting stats aren't there, but oh my goodness, how many of your guys who were buying now are going to do that, are going to have a six or seven year peak like that? No, ma, I got Manny, Manny loves Noma. From 97. 03, a seven year peak. 323 back to back batting titles, batting. 357 and 372 average, 21 hits. I mean, I mean in the playoffs he was 41. Doubles. I mean, he had an injury also, so that kind of sucked. Don Newcomb, Dale Murphy. I mean the names are just crazy, but they're not names that any of you guys have ever really heard you really talk about. And I do this on purpose, right? I do this on purpose for you guys. I know you don't care. None of you. You're not going to go out and buy a Don Manley card or, or an Albert Joey Bell card. You're not going to go out and chase these guys. But it's done for a reason. My eyes were open to the stats of some of the guys in the 60s, some of the 70s NBA stats. Go look. Oh my God. Some of These guys average 30 points and 20 rebounds. Wilt was like 45. And I mean, it's just crazy. The numbers that are out there on this and very few of us are buying their cards right now. And if I went back to, you know, the, the pitching numbers of the guys who played in sort of a dead bowl era pre war, you'd be, it'd be insane. I mean, Ty Cobb has records for wins, records for hits. You know, Cy Young has records for wins and, and losses. You know, no one's ever gonna touch. It's a different game. It's fun stuff. It's interesting to think about kind of the numbers. I would say that the goat conversations are real interesting because you have to take into account the, you know, the, the different era. The numbers change. You know, they didn't track blocks and steals for a lot of these guys that are on here. And you know, some of these guys had you know, we're averaging 20 something rebounds a game. And I mean, that just doesn't happen if we see a 20 rebound game once, you know, you're like, oh my God, did you see Dennis Rodman, how many rebounds he had? You see Webby had 20 rebounds. You know, you're wow, these guys were doing it for the whole season, different game. And most of that is probably because there were a lot less, you know, three point Chucks being thrown up. And that changed the game too. That changed the game from a scoring perspective. You know, I know when I was a kid in the, in the 80s and 90s when I went out on a basketball court, I was learning post moves. I had the littler guys, the smaller guys playing point guard, throwing it into me with my back to the basket. And I was learning a little baby hook when Shaq was learning it. You know, I learned the dream shake and have taught it to my son. You know, I can, you know, shoot a spinning jumper out of the, out of the post. You know, I have a couple good post moves. Kids today are not learning that. They're learning how to chuck the ball from halfway down the street. Curry. You know, and that changes, it changes the stats, it changes the complexion of the game. You know, it changes what, what, how kids are learning the game and what stats there are going to. And it's just, it's interesting to watch this. Interesting to do because I bring it all back to cards. I'll preach a little caution. Don't get too far ahead of yourself on any young player because even if that young player goes out and has a great three year, four year, five or six year stretch, anything can happen. And it's been done before by players who you probably are not collecting. I remember walking around the Mint Collective with Manny, second time you got mentioned nanny, looking for no more Garcia para cards. Think of the stats I just gave you. I mean, that guy was a stud bag. 372 in a season. Come on, who does that? Nobody does that. And had a six, seven year stretch like you wouldn't believe. There wasn't a single card of his. Like I wanted to buy him a card. We couldn't even find one. Obviously not very heavily collected. He can't even find the card. So I mean, I come on here today, you know, a little discombobulated with a little bit of research. But really the heading on it is, you know, when you talk about the greatest of all time, you got to look back at what some of these guys have done in the past. And I mean, maybe we split that conversation up into the greatest of each era because each one of them are going to have different stats and value different things. But the higher level part of it is, is that we all love buying these, you know, these, these new guys, these current guys, these people are playing now because it's exciting. You know, you see, my collection has shifted from Babe Ruth and Mickey Mantle to, you know, I'm buying Ohtani and Judge and have some Steph Curry and you know, Messi. There is some excitement there, you know, but, but I don't say do what I do, I'm just telling you what I do. You have to notice that when I'm buying, I'm still buying. Everybody I just named is an old timer already. Multiple MVP is for Judge and Otani. Multiple MVPs and championships for Steph Messi. I mean, most people would say he's the best to ever do it. You know, there'll be some arguments to the contrary. You are not seeing too many cards that I'm gonna hold for a long time of Connor Griffin, that's the guy's name, right? Or even Cooper Flag. I mean, I have some Cooper Flag cards. I'll hold them until this next season's about to start and sell them. It's a little bit of a different strategy there. You know, I am buying Jackson Dart not because I plan to hold Jackson Dart past the National. I'm not telling you, you know, not to do that either. But the point of it is, you know, maybe take a little look at your collection, maybe, you know, take a look at, you know, kind of, you know, what was collectible previously and go back to the old. I mean, I give Gary Vee credit on this one. You know, he used to say, be careful buying the current guys because, you know, look at someone like a Dwyane Wade and look at the stats and look at what they did. And someone like Dwayne Wade is a, you know, a top 50, top 75 all time player who's just not really collected. He probably should be collected more than he is, but he's not really collected. Is your guy who you're really heavily invested in now and you know, putting your money into and, and betting on that guy having a career, is that guy really going to be better than Dwyane Wade? I guess for your sake, with the amount of money you're putting in, we all hope so. And there's another episode we talk about the greatest of all time. For me, I mean, I'm gonna start telling people it's Wilt. Because you can't make an 82.0team without him, it seems. And there's another episode, guys. Brought to you by Arena Club. Buy card ladder, use code Cage. Save yourself a couple bucks and buy the Philly Show. If you hated this one, keep it to yourself. Now just tell me. Send me a DM and say this was a stupid episode. I'll talk to you guys soon. Take care, everybody.