Is Restoration the Cure for Stale Vintage? | The Hangover Ep 9

Should do it. What is going on, party people? The Hangover episode nine coming at you today, Wednesday, July 15, 2026. I'm Jeremy Lee from Sports Cards Live, joined by Joe Perot from Sports Cards Live and David Chase also from Sports Cards Live. This is episode nine, guys. What is going on? Happy Tuesday. While we are recording, we had a great show on Saturday. We talked about the, the Franken Wagner, we talked about the collectible assets on Heritage. We had a great show, lots of conversation. We had Darren Ravel on the channel for the first time. But this is exclusive Sports Cards Live content on the Sports Card Clubhouse. We are glad to, glad to be here. Hope everyone's having a great day. Hope you're enjoying the rest of the content here on the Clubhouse. Joe, how you feeling today on this Tuesday morning? I'm doing great, you know, mid summer, Midsummer night's dream. I don't know. Yeah, just counting down the days. Tell schools back, but trying to also disassociate. And man, the hobby is alive. Right leading into the national, we got fanatics this weekend we got a West coast card show. There's just seems like everything's converging and a lot of action. It feels, it feels like the hobby is peaking right now. I don't know if that means that it's gonna, the, the peak in, in furs that we're going to see anything decline. There might be a little bit of, of what's, what's the word? There might be a hangover. It might be a little bit of a hangover after the national. Right, because it's. Every west coast card show will be done. Dallas shows done by then. The national Fanatics Fest, all these things are done by then. And I wonder how people are going to feel the last month of summer heading into the fall. We'll see how it goes. But then, you know, show season kicks in again in the, in the fall in certain regions. The hobby never sleeps. The hobby never dies. The hobby's never gonna die. We're, if we're peaking right now, what does the next peak feel like? I don't know. But I'm, I'm gonna be here for it either way. What. However high or low it is, I'll be here for that, for the next peak as well. You know, there are things changing, you know, even we talked at length on Saturday about the Franken Wagner, the Keith Olbermann owned Wagner silhouette that's been restored on a, what's his name? Johnny Leach. Tommy Leach. Yeah. Tom on a Tommy Leach. Authentic Tommy Leach. Background, beautiful looking restoration job, I would say. This is. You know, I was saying on the phone, I think it was with, you see, I talked to Joe and David on the phone, both of these guys, so much. I don't know what I said to which one of you guys. I said to one of you guys, I feel like that Wagner is, is. We are going to look back at the sale of this card when it sells on August 8th. That's when it's going to sell. I think we are going to look back on that card as being a fundamental ship. Possible shift, but a fundamental moment in the hobby. Because is it going to open the door to wider acceptance of restoration or is it going to close the door to that? One way or another, it's going to be. There's gonna be a lot of talk happening and I think that this card is going to go down as among the most famous cards of all time. I really think that I'm, I'm. I'm kind of blown away by how few people are actually, in my end, in my feeling, understanding the magnitude of this situation, because restoration, preservation, alteration, maintenance, all these things are. Are hot topics. It's. We're seeing more and more of it out there. You see, you see card show flyers that say restoration on site. Now, a lot of people don't like it. We are not fans of this, the three of us. We are. We don't. We're not big restoration guys. But what if the movement becomes so strong that it overtakes what becomes and puts us into what might become the minority? So I think that this card is revolution, could be potentially revolutionary for the hobby, whether we like it or not. I'm not encouraging it or discouraging it for anybody else. I'm just saying I think that this is a potential revolution on our hands and we're not understanding the magnitude of the impact it's having here right now in mid July 2026, this thing's going to sell on August 8th. Depending on what it sells for, this could have huge repercussions moving forward. And you guys aren't realizing it yet. Not you guys. So we talked about it, but people aren't understanding and really comprehending just how big this moment might be for the hobby moving forward, such that it could be remember. It could be remembered 50, 100 years down, down the road from now, just like when Gretzky McNall bought the other Wagner, the. The PSA8 trim copy for $451,000 in the early 90s. Could be revolutionary. Just like that opening thoughts on that topic that I just brought. Joe, let's go to you for your opening thoughts on that topic. Yeah, I mean, I'm super curious how that auction wraps up. And the beauty of the hobby is that there's not just one data point to keep track of. Right. I mean, there's the market of Wagners, there's what this particular version of refurbishment is involving in. There's the fact that it's in a CGC holder. There's so much to take into account. But I love reveals. I love sort of not knowing something and then being able to try and think what's going to happen and then seeing it happen and, you know, the number that ends up, you know, ends up going for. I think it's going to be fascinating and will probably tell us a lot about how people are feeling about this or at least how. How the big spenders are feeling. Yeah, great add on there. I agree. David, what do you think? Oh, I mean, I'm so far still a little offended that you checked in to say hi to Joe so far and you haven't even said hi, David, how are you doing today? As you mentioned, hi to Joe. Sorry, Joe. What's this guy's last name below us here? David. What? David. I mean, he checks in with Joe. How's it going, Joe? What's going on? And then just goes with the subject. Doesn't even just. I'm like, nothing. All right, well, I'm doing well, Jeremy, thank you for asking. And with this, with this topic. Yeah, I think it's very telling. Also, I think it's going to be super interesting to see is this going to be like the lowest price Wagner or could this be a Wagner that goes for a relatively high price that's above a lot of the dirty, filthy PSA1 SGC1 Wagners and show that a revolution of fixing a card can increase the value because it looks better. And I think that this is a version of that. And we've been talking over weeks over fixing cards and how that's kind of becoming a little bit more mainstream. And this might be the poster child of that. Yeah, I think it is. I think it's going to be. And it's the blatant obvious poster child because it isn't orange like the original. It is yellow now. Really interesting. So. So we talked about this on Sports Cards Live this past Saturday. We had Darren revel on to talk about it as well. We also talked about the collectible heritage card issue, but since the Saturday, which is only three days ago I've received somebody on Instagram DM'd me the front the before and after pictures of two other slabbed restored Honus Wagners. So we're gonna so this Saturday, this coming Saturday, which will be the 18th or the 19th, I forget which one of July, we are going to be streaming sports cards live. We're going to be on YouTube on, on YouTube on sports cards Live, but we're also going to be streaming to the Four Collectors YouTube channel for once a year as we do for the Lollapalooza event where a whole bunch of content creators come together for three days of non stop content. So make sure you're checking that out on Four Collectors everybody. However, we're going to be talking more about the Wagner there. Why? Because after the, the, the episode we did on Saturday, Love of the Game, the auction company who is hosting the card, CEO Al Chrisafili reached out to me and we've been, we've had quite a few conversations in the last few days. Well, two actually conversations last couple days and talking about the card and the story. He's going to come on and clarify the story behind this card. We're also during that show on, on Hobby Palooza, I'm also going to share these two other restored Wagners, the before and after versions of them. So we can just broaden the discussion and talk about the fact that there are restored cards in PSA slabs and SGC slabs and CGC slabs. And we'll get, we'll get Al's thoughts, Al Chrisafili's thoughts from Love of the Game. We'll get his thoughts on the card. He'll tell a bit more of the story about the owner, who is Keith Olbermann, and, and it's gonna fill in some, some holes that we didn't have filled in last week on Saturday when we talked about. So I'm excited to have Al on the show to talk about the card, which is a controversial card, but I think it's a very, to me, it's one of my favorite topics in the hobby, like of all time because, because of, I just think that we are not fully comprehending the magnitude of this moment in the hobby and on in a way, like, I hope I'm wrong. I hope that, that, that this is not going to be such a moment because I am not somebody who restores cards or wants to own restored cards. Now there are exceptions to that. And last night I think it was you, David. Put me through the, put me through the ringer with, with Kind of trying to figure out where we would be accepting of having a restored card in our collection. Why don't we go around the horn on that topic quickly, David? I think it's interesting and because Joe's on top, and I didn't even address you, David, we're going to continue with prioritizing Joe here, but. I'm kidding. But, David, you actually, last night when we were chatting, you made me think. And it was great. I love it. Because we were like, hey, what cards would you be willing to accept into your collection if they were restored? And I know what I think. Joe, what about you? Where do you fall today on. On accepting restored cards into your collection? Would you accept any card you want? Or do you. Is it like, like. And I'll just spill the beans. For me, it's like, okay, Wagner, 52 tops, mantle, 48 leaf satchel, and maybe a Mic and maybe a Nagursky, maybe a couple of others near those because I can't afford them otherwise. And what I can afford, I'd never want to look at because it would be ugly. They're. I don't. I don't really care about own appeal. I care about eye appeal and wanting to look at what I own. So what about you, Joe? Where do you fall in terms of owning a card that's been restored? Yeah, so in my collecting history, I definitely purchased cards, you know, 15, 20 years ago even, that were in cases like BGS and PSA and designated as altered. And they were usually cards that looked near mint or mint and probably had been trimmed. And I still have some of those. And I. And I think the way I wrap my head around that is I'd rather look at what appears to be a near mint card of. Let's say I have a. I have a 68 mantle, tops, for instance, you know, and it's just. It looks like it could be an 8, but it's altered and it's probably trimmed. I'm assuming it's trimmed. So I'm okay with it as long as it's transparently reflected in some way or another. I think where we're going now, though, with this kind of card architecture is a little different. And I'm open to that, too, because I think as long as it's not pulling the wool over someone's eyes, I'm pretty good at appreciating what something is and not sort of what it's not. I mean, I can recognize what it's not, but I can also lean in and appreciate the fact that in the case of the Wagner, like this is a silhouette that's being framed in such a way where we can fully appreciate it. So yes, I may be a bit of a contrarian to many of my friends and, or the crowd that I usually align with, but I don't see this as that controversial in so much as it's acknowledged. Maybe we can quibble about the language that they used. You know, that which we did, we went through a whole word list. We had a word bank of all the different ways. You know, I did come around to the word refurbished, which I think Cage suggested at one point. But I don't have as big of a problem as some, and I think I could even embrace it as long as we're not trying to scam anybody. Well said, buddy. How about you, David Chase? I just want to push back at Joe for just one second just to get you to think, just to see if it's a different answer for you. There will be no pushing back on Joe Perot. I will fight to the death to protect Joe Perot. I will too. So I agree. And I don't mean pushing back, I mean having you think in question, Joe, do you think that there's a difference though, for a card that you would accept as altered versus refurbished? Right. Like, I think that's what I, I would love to know for you if you were to purchase a card today, a newer a card in your collection, if it's refurbished. What's, what's the criteria of a card that you would take in that kind of status? I, I, I mean, I think in line with what Jay Lee led off with, I think it would probably have to be a card that would be incredibly difficult to acquire in any other way. So, for instance, you know, one of my grails, maybe one of yours too, David, is a 48 leaf satchel page. I don't see a reality where I'm going to be able to access a 48 leaf satchel page. But if there were a refurbished version that had some elements of a real page card, but it needed to be augmented in some way, I would be happy to bring that in. And as we know, I am Beater Joe, so I, I, my threshold for acceptance, despite the the Rodeo moniker, I, I still have my roots in Beater Beater Jonas. So I, but I do think kind of like the, the primary lens would be the, the magnitude of the card. Gotcha. Beater Beater Jonas. I love it. Peter. Joe Ness. So, David, what about you? Where do you fall on this accepting Restore? Because Joe went and talked about trimmed and altered cards. Fine, happy to have that. You know, that fits right in. But what, what this Honus Wagner card is, I love how Joe said reframed, not just restored, but reframed in a different frame than original frame. We think border, but we're talking about the background as well. So. And then I guess my. Not a pushback, but like to Joe, with the 1968 mantle, what if it was reframed with a different background than. Than the one you're used to now? It becomes a Franken card again. So I'm going to change the question a little bit to in which what, what cards would you have in a Franken card form? You know, like for me, the ones I mentioned, I don't think, Joe, you would want a Franken card. 68 tops mantle. You'll get a real, a real full weather. Yeah. Okay, David, where do you fall in all that? So I was pushing back on Jeremy on this when, when, because our first thought was that same way. Right people, the 52 tops mantle, the 48 leaf Paige, the Wagner, like those are like the three that come to our minds. I mean, I know that Jeremy doesn't love the Babe Ruth kind of rookie card as much. I do like that card. I put that in there too. You know, these iconic, crazy, very expensive cards that I do not see myself owning anytime soon. But can there be a layer below that? And, and that's kind of the way that I was thinking and wondering. It is. So like a card such as a 1955 Roberto Clemente, right? That's a card that I can afford. It's expensive, but I can still afford it. And I can afford a lower grade, hopefully nicer, nice looking one. But if one comes in as like a seven or an eight that looks like that, that's refurbished, I wouldn't care, but I wouldn't go for a card like that. Okay. Because I can own a lower graded one. It really has to have a base of a very expensive way to get in. What's that base? That's different for all of us, right. For some people that could be a $500 card. I totally get it. For me, it's a more expensive card. It's a card that like is. You know, I have bought one card that's over five figures in my lifetime so far. And I think that's like around that threshold where it's like the lower grade, nice looking card is above that number. Then I can see myself in certain circumstances. So like for me, A33 Gowdy Ruth is an interesting one, right? Because for a nice version of that, that's probably like 10 to $15,000. And if one looks like an eight that's refurbished, that looks very similar. That could be a $200,000 card. Well, for me to get into a nice one is that threshold. So that's like right on the border for me for what I would take as a refurbished card. And I'm not even 100% sure that card would be one. It's for sure one that's beyond that price range for myself. Yeah, Joe, a quick follow up too. The one thing about this Wagner that we don't know is none of us have held it in hand and somebody mentioned that there's some, you know, upliftment there because of the way it might have been placed on it. So that would actually factor in as well to me, like how well the refurbishment or reframing was achieved and what you would detect when you started to kind of look at the card in a three dimensional way and not just a flat 2D way. Great, great point. And that's something that we'll, we'll get Al to, to talk about on Saturday on Sports Cards Live on Hobby Palooza. You know, I wonder now, guys, we're talking a lot about vintage cards. Restoration, refurbishment, alteration. Why are we talking about this? Is vintage getting stale? Are we feeling like it's a bit like, are we getting bored of vintage? We all love it, we talk about it a lot. I know Joe and I also collect modern. David, you're firmly vintage, but is it getting stale? I asked the question because Joe, you introduced, offered a topic that I think is a, that I really enjoy, that I really want to get into this next topic, but I think that's a neat little segue. Why are we talking so much about like, is this how to bring some action back into the world of vintage by restoration and yellow backed Wagners or yellow background Wagners? Like what's going on? Joe, what are you, what are you thinking when you talked about like when you, when you introduced the topic earlier? Well, both in my own collecting, you know, I've always sort of had a foot in ultra modern and modern and then in vintage and even vintage I sort of categorize, you know, kind of early, early, you know, 30s, pre war and then more like the 50s and 60s. And I found myself personally just, I never look for 50s and 60s anymore. And even some of the tobacco cards or, or bowman and leafs or you know, interesting, you know, E92 stuff that don't have like a true iconic player. I'm just not quite as intrigued by that. And I've. And I've had a whole lot of my hobby career be involved in, you know, a Sam Crawford or a Rube Waddell. So it's interesting to find myself a little disenchanted. And then I'm looking around at a lot of my hobby friends who are trying out new lanes, sometimes more in the like 90s parallel. Like all this Barry Bonds fascination. Like, I know so many people that have been dabbling in Barry Bonds who I consider primarily vintage collectors. And when I ask them about it, it's just like there's so many cool discoveries there. Like, there's such a complexity of offerings in the menu and. And surprisingly, like, you might have a numbered card or it might not be numbered at all, but looking at the pop counts and looking kind of for opportunity and sort of seeing that market have a little bit more fuel than what we might say, you know, a dusty old mid hall of Famer that is probably going to, you know, chip away a little bit. A little bit, A little bit not go down. So I've just been noticing it in my hobby friends and it just has brought to my mind this question of, like, personally and in the kind of company I keep, are we just getting a little bored with like mid and even. And even upper mid vintage? Yeah. Interesting topic. So I'll just a few words that come to mind for me. 2. First thing is I wonder if any of that has to do with all this talk and hobby narrative recently about moving towards goats and only collect goats and goats only and invest in. Go, go, go, go, go, go, go. These goats. It's getting annoying, all this goat talk all the time. I wonder if that's. If that, if, if that social narrative has started to move the needle a little bit. But then I think also, you know, I've been collecting vintage cards for 40 years and people often say to me, and I just. Someone recently asked me, like, Jay Lee, what's the one vintage hockey card you don't have yet that you want, that you want to own? I don't have an answer to that. Guys, I've got everything. I'm kind of like, I don't think I bought a vintage hockey card in, in like for my personal collection. In a few years, I'd have to really go looking and take an audit to see what it was. I've. I almost feel like my vintage hockey collection, it's done, it's complete. I don't need anything else. Maybe the odd second year or third year card out there just for fun. But it would almost be more like. Like what? Like just the, the shiny penny that's. That stuck out to me. Like, I'm not actively looking for any vintage hockey right now. So. Is it stale? Well, no, I'm just done. But I can't help but buy cards. So I look at other lanes. You know, we, we expand. We, you know, you. When you, when you run out of rice, you gotta go eat corn. Like, I'm. I'm just looking for something else. And I found many things. So I wonder, I wonder if it's narrative. And I wonder if a lot of collectors are. Are becoming more advanced in their collections where they're just like, I have all the, I have all the call. I got my cobs, my roofs, my Garricks, my Jackies, my mantles, my errands. I got what I want. My pages, I got them. Where do you go from there? Those people are no longer contributing to the values of the prices because they're not bidding anymore. They're out of the market. So just some thoughts in mind about why vintage might be getting a little sort of stale, to use an aggressive word for it and not to offend it. Like, we all love our vintage here, so. But David, what do you think on the topic? Yeah, I think that the longer you've been in the game, the more you've seen these cards over and over again. And there's not really a new supply that's coming out and surprising us every year. The way that modern can affect you. Right. And you have to either get a new lane or. This is also why there's so many YouTube channels where they have, like, oddball, you know, fruity Pebbles cards that they show that for me can get like a little bit tough to watch, but I get it. Right? It's because you've already. How many times can somebody talk about the golden age regular cars? You have to find different paths that excite you. That's a new find. And I'm the same way as you, Jeremy, about getting a little stale with some of my sports. Like for football, vintage, I'm done. The only card I would ever want is really like the Nagursky. And for basketball, the card I'm missing is the Mikan. And other than that, like, I'm not really looking for those two. And I was really into vintage basketball and football when I came back into the hobby. But I kind of. I have the cards that I want and like, it's funny because I'm not into modern, but you guys have kind of have started to wear on me a little bit. And for my first time on this fanatics auction I did bid on a mem card. I bid on a patch card. It was a four patch game played Messi, Ronaldo, Pele and Maradona card. And I was falling in love with it. I was only going to buy it if it went to a certain price and it was double what I was going to pay for it. But I put in bids for it and it was a card I've never seen before and it was very cool and I started doing research on it and I get the modern path because you guys can have a new year come out or a new lane and be able to fall in love with the cards that you see that are coming out. And I don't have that as much as a vintage unless I go oddball or a different complete thing like non sports. Right. Which is what I'm doing right now. I'm following that because I'm seeing new things for the first time that are exciting me. Yeah, yeah. Well said. Good, good, good comments, David. So listening to both of you and listening to myself, I've come up with a qu. Sort of a question, a scenario if you will, where put yourself in the situation. Me with hockey, David with basketball, football. Joe, if you're, you know, if it's gotten stale for you. So you, you're, you're a vintage guy, you've done you, maybe you have a channel, maybe you don't, doesn't matter. But you're a vintage guy, you love your vintage cards and you're now looking for another way to still enjoy the hobby instead of just moving on. You know, you don't want to, you don't want to leave the community, you don't want to stop shopping. You, you're addicted to buying cards like we all are. Here are some ways that I can see you refreshing the staleness. Put, put, putting some moisture back into that stale piece of bread. Here's what I got. Upgrading is one way that you can maybe stay involved. Number two, move to in IP autos on those cars. We know some people that have done that. That's a way to reinvent the game in a way. Number three, going oddball, non mainstream type of direction. A lot of you, David, you just said that. And number four, maybe you want to start looking to restored Franken card one of ones like the, like this. Now the Honus Wagner obviously is unaffordable. For 99.9 of the hobby, if not more. But there is a movement in the hobby space towards art cards. And people have been cutting. There's a guy called Card Cutter. There are people who take cards, they cut them up in every which way and create a new creation. I've been gifted a couple of them over the years and I have them proudly displayed because they are creations of an artist using the raw materials of actual vintage, authentic sports car or modern sports cars. So I say, okay, maybe, maybe another way for somebody to get re interested is, hey, I've got, I've got a beautiful 54 tops Hank Aaron with that gorgeous orange background and the two images of him, the three sided border. Maybe, maybe I can. Maybe I can. Maybe I come across a silhouetted Wagner. Sorry, silhouetted. A silhouetted Hank Aaron similar to the Wagner. I find this. It looks like a piece of garbage, but I find it. And now I'm gonna go find myself a nice cheap 54 tops LK line with that red background and I'm gonna restore it. I'm gonna, I'm gonna create the world's only authentic silhouetted Wagner reframed on an authentic alkaline red background. I'm gonna have the first red background Hank Aaron. Maybe that's a way that some people can. I don't think we're there. I don't think anyone's going out and doing that yet. Except for the Honest Wagon. And this was, which was done in the late 90s. But is that an option for people? I know that, I know that a lot of our, our viewers, listeners, friends and fans are sitting there rolling their eyes saying, jeremy, shut up. Don't give anyone any ideas. You know, you're, you're talking ridiculous. Am I though? Am I really? Maybe I am. I'm willing to be, I'm willing to be ridiculous on this. David, what do you think of that? Of that? Because I gave you four ways to continue not letting vintage go stale on you. Yeah, I mean, I, I do think it's interesting to see our cards in a different form in a different way. You know, by the way, we have to expand our minds when we're saying this. We get it. All right? All you precisionists who are throwing tomatoes at the screen, as Greg would say, I get it. And you know what? On a Wagner it's hard because there's only like 30 of them or something crazy like that. But there is a few thousand fifty four errands, right? Or K lines. So like, you know, if there's 3,000 of them. If one of them is put in as like a one of one and has some kind of artist do something very cool looking to it, I understand that. And for me, I'm not so overprotective of all 3,000 of them in the population that I think that that is an interesting thing to do. Very different. To do it to try to get a higher grade and fool somebody. But if you end up like, you know, we were talking about that Wagner, you know, it's a yellow background, so you can kind of see that it's different than anything else. But. But if it was like a bright red background or a purple background or these other cards also to make a Hank Aaron that looks very different than the Aaron that it is, I think that is an interesting concept. Don't hate me. Yeah. Watch out for the. There are tomatoes flying right now. You know, I think about hobby president Jonathan Victor Mangini. I have no idea what his middle name is. I just made that up. I don't even know. Yeah, yeah, it's Jonathan Victor, right? Yeah, Jonathan Victor Mangini. I think about him. He. He proudly collects miscut cards. Am I right? Yeah, he. He loves miscut cards. They're. They're unique. They're rare. They're rarer than centered cards, actually. Miscuts. I'm not off centers. That's a. That's a fun angle. He found a way to be interested, remain interested, and to find unique oddballs, that kind of thing. To find the needle in the haystack. I wonder is there? And I know the difference between what he's doing and someone who would go out and say, you know what? I've got my authentic original Hank Aaron and everybody else I want. Now I want to find. I want to play. I want to have some fun. I want some. I want some variations. I want some artists made. I got. I got a guy. He's a great conservator. I've got a guy. He's. He's. He's. I got the right input. I got the raw materials to do it because they're cheap. They're, you know, they're low grade, whatever. I might start ordering or commissioning some of these. And like you said, David, not to fool anybody. That's why one of the reasons I really like the yellow Wagner is because it's going to fool nobody. And if you're fooled, you're. That's on you at this point. You should have done. You did no research. So not so you. You can afford to be fooled at that point. But, you know, by. By not trying to fool anybody and actually taking what is otherwise something that you might not enjoy owning and turning to something you would enjoy owning, regardless what the rest of the hobby thinks, feels, or cares. I mean, I'm okay with it because you're not trying to deceive anybody. I'm not saying I would go do this. Not here today, in 2026. Maybe in the future, I might be like, hey, you know what? I've got a Gretzky rookie. I got four of them, actually. Maybe I get a trashed one, Joe, like just a brutal one. I cut out Wayne Gretzky and. And I put him. I get someone to create me. I put him. Put that silhouette. Silhouette of Wayne on some other card. Change the background, do something to it to make it interesting. And I also think that this is where. This is where, you know, we lose a lot of people in this discussion, but these become potential one of ones. Now. These are not authentic cards, guys. There's. They are not authentic. I don't think the Franken Wagner is an authentic card. It says authentic on the CGC holder. I don't think it's an authentic card. We'll talk about it with Al on Saturday. But not trying to fool anybody here. These are true art pieces. So, you know, and there's also the. I forget his name. He's been set up at the national for years now. The guy who. He cuts up cards and makes a big mosaic, and they're beautiful. They sell for thousands of dollars. He's not trying to fool anybody, but he's cutting up real cards, making mosaics and selling them for a lot of money. I used to have his card. Met him at the Navy, Ryan something. I feel like, yeah, I met him, like, 10 years he's there. He's. You can watch him doing his work at the National. What's the difference between what he's doing and making a Franken card? Keeping in mind that Franken cards are not trying to fool anybody. You're at least like. David, you mentioned if you. If you took the Wagner instead of yellow, you went with a red or a purple background. And I said to me, I'm like, no, that's too far away on the color spectrum from orange. Yellow is next to orange, as is red, right? It goes red, orange, yellow on the basic color spectrum. So they kept it close with yellow, but they didn't go. They didn't go off the beaten path and make it looks like completely unrecognizable. You still look at it you're like, wait a second. Like, oh, this is not original. Like you, you know, you, you have to look at it. You're like, what am I looking at before? You're just like, this is a, this is just a picture someone made in Photoshop sort of thing. So I wonder. I don't, I can see myself owning a Franken card in the future, even of a more common card. But it's not, it's really a novelty versus part of my sports card collection becomes part of my card art collection. And I do have a collection of that. I have a card that is a prism card of LeBron James that the Currency project, they painted on it and they sell their cards on, on ebay. And I bought one several years ago. They're all one on ones, but they're art cards. They're literally painting on the card, they around the player. And no one really questions that and says that's taboo. No, there's millions of those cards. Who cares? It's art. So any, any response to that? Go ahead, Dave. Yeah, and when we were, I mean we, we got in so deep on this subject until like 1:30 in the morning, by the way, and I have to be at work at 5:45. But one thing that was kind of interesting about this also was being one color away on the, on the color wheel. Red is the other side of yellow. And I thought it was very interesting. How about if like they use the deep red of like a cob for a card like that? So Joe, do you think that there'd be a premium on the Franken Wagner if it had the cob background and maybe even labeled as the Wagner Cobb kind of thing? Is that, what do you think of that versus what you see here in the yellow? And do you think it's worth more than the current Franken Wagner because it's Cobb instead of leech? Right. I mean, as long as it was verified, I, I suppose I, I do cringe at the idea of ruining a cob, a red cob, you know, and in my mind I'm like, how do we know it's not a Dolly Gray? So yeah, but the, the raw materials, I mean, let's face it, backgrounds are not at the same premium as, you know, the player's image or even, even maybe specific backgrounds. Like there are some really cool T206 backgrounds where you see, you know, the, the, the stadium in the background or maybe just an open field. And, and if those cards are known, then maybe it kind of ups the, the premium a little bit. If it's a famous card but you. Yeah. Wait, Joe, how about if, like, the cob that was used had a mustache drawn on it? Jeremy and I were saying things like that, Right. How about if it was like. Or had like a crazy paper loss on his face, that was used and you knew something like that. Let's even say that that happened, which is the reason why you used it. Would it bring a premium if it used the cob background? It might. I don't like that idea as much as kind of keeping it simple and keeping the main thing. The main thing, like, to me, like, I'm at the age right now where a lot of my friends who chose to get married, they're like, renewing their vows. You know, they're kind of like, trying to find that moment of like. And, and that's when Jeremy went through the list of, like, ways that vintage collectors can keep themselves sort of engaged, you know, that my mind went there. It's like, okay, what can we do? We're, you know, we can, we can have an open marriage, you know, but there's, there's challenges with that, as we know, in human beings. And yet, you know, so the renewal, like, kind of reminding yourself what you committed to it does. It is just sort of natural, I think, for human beings to reach a point where they're sort of like, okay, what is the next thing I'm reminded of? Bob Boozle, our wonderful hall of fame chat. Bob Boozle did an IG post where there was a bunch of collectors at the. The Louvre in front of the Mona Lisa, you know, kind of stemming off of. And they all have scissors and they're, like, trying to kind of get at the Mona Lisa to chop it up. And, and that came up on the show on Saturday night, right? Like, would you guys be okay with little bits and pieces of famous cards that were then kind of co opted? And I don't, I don't like that. And I don't agree that it's a fair comparison. Somebody said something about, you know, the jerseys. I think, you know, a card is meant to be a piece of art. I guess a jersey is too, but I have a little less interest in the esthetics of a jersey than I do of cards, maybe because I'm not a jersey collector. So anyway, this, this all just reminds me that, you know, as collectors were, we're kind of in the, in the emerging frontier of, like, what's. What's going to be important. And Jay Lee, I mean, for you, you've gone down this Lane of, of mem cards, modern mem cards of vintage players. So, like, that's how you're livening up your marriage, right? You're kind of like taking something that's, that's important to you. The vintage players, the, the icons, the Babe ruth, the Joe DiMaggios, the Jackie Robinson, and you're finding a new way to kind of engage with them. Meanwhile, I'm at a place where like getting ready for the national and maybe a lot of us are doing this kind of inventorying my collection and figuring out how am I going to generate a little, a little, you know, heat that I can turn over into something fun. And I'm really, I'm going after those mid level vintage players. I'm going, I'm picking off. I mean, Hank Greenberg's kind of an icon, you know, one of the most famous Jewish players early on. Great player, great stats. But I'm like looking at my Hank Greenberg rookie and going, I could probably live without this. And, and how, how important will Hank Greenberg be in 20 or 30 years? So this brings up a lot. I, Sorry, David, you, you, it was your turn and you just asked me a question. Maybe throw it back to David and, and see if you have anything more to say. Well, before. Go ahead, think about it, Dave. I just want to say like back to the Cobb, like if the Franken Wagner was a cob back versus a leech back, I think it would great. I would be way more interested in it if it was the cob back, if it was an authentic cob back. So you got the authentic Wagner silhouette on an authentic cob background and backing. To me, that's really cool. You're marrying two otherwise, you know, ruined cards. You know, silhouette, a die cut Wagner and a cob where someone wrote a mustache or scratched out his face. But the rest of the card was good. Because Joe, you said I don't. You said, I kind of get, I forget the word you use. But you get uncomfortable when you start ruining a card. And I thought, well, these cards are already ruined. But then the purists will say, well, they're not ruined, they're just. That's the history, that's the journey they've gone through, which is. Couldn't be more, couldn't be more truthful. That is the fact. But you're almost like the other, the other, the other sort of side of it is thinking about these cards have, yes, they've traveled their path, they've had their journey, they've been damaged along the way, creased, crunched, up, all these things. Do we not respect these cards enough to try to revive them, to try to make them feel better? You know, like, you. Like, you hear about makeovers all the time. People are brought in off the street and they're given a makeover. They have a new lease on life. They can go get a job now. I mean, some of these cards want to go get a job. They can't get a job in the clothes they're wearing because they look like they were literally passed out outside in the back alley somewhere after getting hammered the night before and beaten up so that that person could go get a. Could go get a. Get a makeover. We are dead set against makeovers on cards. But does. Do we not. So there's the. There's a tension. Do we not respect the card enough to maybe give it a better future, a better. Make it feel better about itself because it looks better? And of course, I'm testing. I'm pushing these. I'm pushing the thought experiment here. I'm not advocating for anything here. I'm just pushing the thought pattern. So, David, I saw your hand go up. What do you think? I want to even push it further. And again, I don't agree with this, but I'm just trying to push the discussion to get to points that make us uncomfortable. Why are we so protective of other people's cards? Right? These are not our. These aren't even cards we own. None of us are gonna ever own a Wagner, but we are gonna fight to the death that somebody is repairing one of these 30 Wagners. It's not like this is the Louvre where the Mona Lisa is in a museum that we're able to go visit. This is going in some rich guy's basement that we're never gonna see again until he dies or his family decides to sell it. So it is kind of funny to me. And then that kind of makes me expand to, how about all these other cards? I mean, we are so against somebody cutting up a cob. There's thousands of cobs. There's thousands of them. It's not your cob. Go buy a different one. Why do we care so much about one cob that is never going to be in your collection anyway? That is going to be one that, like, makes people happy. It just is. And again, I'm not saying I 100% agree with this. I just kind of like the idea. But I think it's kind of an interesting dynamic to this of like, dude, worry about your own cards. It's good for your Cob. If other cobs are getting cut up, think about that as well, right? Yeah. Lower, less supply. I, you know, Joe touched on, you know, taking a very valuable vintage card in whatever condition, cutting it up into 20 pieces and, and putting it as a modern newly pack issued card commemorating that old card. I mean maybe tops of the baseball license goes and buys that 54 tops Hank Aaron that I talked about with the silo. Just the silhouette of his, of his body, maybe both silhouettes of the two images of him or even the whole card. They cut it up into 20, 30 little square, 1 inch square inch, whatever. It would be probably smaller than that. And they, and maybe they get six pieces, whatever it is, they embed them into a new card. And now what are you buying? You're buying a new card. Maybe it's a one of six, a one of ten, whatever it is. And, and they're, they're embedding it into a more modern housing, a more modern framing, a more modern structure using modern materials. But you're getting a piece of that Hank Aaron card. Now if they would ever do this. And I don't, I'm actually surprised this hasn't been done yet. They're doing it with tickets maybe, and maybe it has been done. We're just not focused in on it. But if they did the really fun conversation just like with patch cards in modern, it's all about the nicer patch. You know, are you getting a logo piece, you're getting jersey number in hockey, some great patch. Are you getting the eyeball from the, from the Panther or the, or the, the Buffalo? Like are, you know, are you getting the Flames from the Calgary Flames? What are you actually getting? What? So with a Hank Aaron, let's say I want like I got his mouth, I got his nose, I got one of his eyeballs, you know, versus his cheek might not be as interesting. The head from the mini silhouette, you could get in there as well. There would be value differences based on which piece you got of that cut up vintage card. Now we're taking this further from just a Franken card, which is taking two cards of the same set for this discussion, being that, that Wagner and melding them together. We haven't even talked about taking a 54 tops Hank Aaron and somehow marrying it to a third to, to a 57 tops Mickey Mantle or something like a different player from a different set. We're talking about the same thing. We're talking about the Franken Wagner taking two cards, one to reform the original and then we're Also talking about taking the card, cutting it up, and putting into a modern production. Fun conversations. Before you guys both respond and I forgot. I just want to show you. This is the LeBron James card that I was talking about that I own, made by the Currency Project. They sign the back, they put a sticker on, they put another sticker on. But this is like a. This is. This is original art on canvas with oil paint. I don't know. The original card is. You can probably figure it out from the back, but nice job not trying. Not trying to be an original card. This is a true one of one art piece. Now, I talked about cutting up cards as well. That's painting on it. This card made by card killer with a K on Instagram. A friend of mine, he's been on the show several times. Several years ago, he made me this card. This is an original Gold Patrol Opici Chrome Timusolani. But he put his own spin on it. It's a lot thicker. It's got, you know, it's. It's an art card. I display it proudly on my shelf. It's not trying to be anything. It isn't. Is this. Is this as offside to the purists out there as the. As the Franken Wagner on Love of the Game? The old Obermann card. Is this as offside? Is this offside? Just trying to understand and, and for, like, I'm willing to own both of these. This one I bought. This was a gift, but I'm willing to own them. And not only own them, display them proudly. I've displayed a very small percentage of my card collection. Ones that I don't think are going to get ruined by the light. I might be wrong. Time will tell. But anyway, back over to who. Who wants to jump in here after what I just talked about? David, Joe, either of you, are we. Or we're good? Well, I. Can. I. I just. I. I see the crowd gathering. I see the pitchforks out, the tar, the feather. Like, I'm. They're coming for us. But. But let's just remind everybody we're kind of like playing the thought experiment out to, like, levels that maybe just test where our sensibilities are and what are the underlying either assumptions or values that we're holding on to when we have responses. I think for me, getting back to the Cobb background, like, I don't know the T2O set well enough to know if there's a similarly green Cobb portrait background. But the reason, like, on the one hand, yeah, the substance of the card has Value. And so I could see the marriage of those, you know, the Wagner and the Cobb being even more kind of intriguing. But to me, I'm thinking where's, where's the Cobb silhouette? What did we do with that? Because that's valuable to me as well. And I feel like any old green background that looks approximate to the Cobb background could be, could do the job as well and not sacrifice the card. But yeah, really interesting ideas that I'm just kind of percolating on. Final comments on the episode. Joe, you want to add anything just to. Or. Yeah, yeah, no, I mean, kind of fascinating and I think just like circling back to the original question, is vintage getting stale? I, I don't want vintage to be getting stale. It is where my heart, you know, began in terms of collecting and my, a big, big part of my heart remains there. But I think there is something about growing and evolving and continuing to look for new opportunities and, and the chase and, or the pursuit of cards versus kind of the, the absolute ownership of them. And so as someone that is not made of money and you know, surviving on a sort of educator salary, I do need to kind of shift and consolidate and move. And that's, that's a little bit of what I'm doing. I'm dipping into the vintage coffers to afford some of the modern and ultra modern. You're, you're, your collection is moving. It's, it's fluid and I think you're stand. That helps you stay involved. So I think you're doing the right things and you're doing what you love. David, final comments and, and thoughts on the episode today. Yeah, first, I'd like to congratulate this episode for getting the historic most thumbs down of any clubhouse video. And you know that we're all just trying to expand our minds, everybody. And by the way, Joe, where is that cob going that you cut out? It's obviously going on a new card. You know, you just make two of them out of it, obviously. But you know, it is a fun game we play. Is it stale? Vintage, of course. Like, you know, listen, I love my vintage baseball and the way that I keep it fresh in my mind is trying to find a lower grade, higher eye appeal version of the same cards I have, which is why I sometimes double up and then I sometimes try to sell my other version. So we're being extreme. Sometimes it's a little stale. Yes. But really in general is let's try to expand and find new lanes that are going to excite us the way it was when you first. First ended up buying that Grail card that you love. The hobby never has to get stale on you, my friends. Thank you, everybody, for joining us. Thank you, Joe. Thank you, David Chase. We will be back on Saturday for Sports Cards live on Hobby Palooza, also on Four Collectors. This is the Hangover exclusive Sports Cards Live content on the Sports Card clubhouse. Thank you and goodbye, everybody. The hangover. We need to change a hat. Let's just make sure, Joe, you're good with this one. Good. Did you need a shave back there or something? Do I need a haircut? No. I mean, you're looking a little. You're looking a little ungroomed. He does that before Saturdays. He doesn't do that before the Hangover. Come on. I shave. I shave on Saturdays for Sports Cards Live. So I'm not dancing like we. We've done enough dancing. Mookie. It's Mookie. Chilson. Of course, we all know it's Mookie. People could cut up segments of this episode, put it in other shows and have restored hobby content. Yeah, Blackpool.