Banning Customer-To-Customer Sales And Trades At Card Show Short-Sighted Or Fair?; Record-Breaking Card Sales Online A Bubble Or Bull Signal?; Quiz Show On Grading Report For August 2025

You're listening to Cards to the Moon, a podcast about trading cards from both a collector and investor perspective. We hope you'll stick around for the ride as we take a deep dive into the state of the hobby, share some hot takes, hopefully some useful advice and fun stories along the way. Hey guys, welcome back to Cards to the Moon. This is episode 315. My name is Clark from 5cardguys.com and 5cardguys on Instagram, YouTube, and on Facebook. Co-hosting with me is John who is back. You can find him on IG at TradeUAtRecess. First John, I want to ask you, how has your summer been? It's been so long, so I want to know how you've been doing. It's been a while. I know work got kind of crazy and just life was sort of happening, so apologies to everyone and everybody, but it's been a great summer. That's good to hear. Yeah, summer's pretty much over now, now that it's September. Hyung, he couldn't join us today. Something came up last minute, but we'll be hoping that he can join for our next episode. All right, off the top today, I don't know if you saw, John, but a record $416 million was spent on online card sales in August. That equates to a record 5.87 million transactions, making August the hottest month in hobby history. So yeah, that's incredible. This set an industry record for the third consecutive month, so this seems to be the trend over the summer. So yeah, John, what do you think of the hobby these days and do you think we're in another bubble or are we saying cards to the moon? Well, it's our show, right? So we got to say cards to the moon. It's tough to say. I feel like sports cards is going to go on a bit of a run because Pokemon had its turn and I feel like there might be a bubble with Pokemon, but at the same time, I don't really know what I'm talking about because I'm not in Pokemon. Pokemon kind of has a different atmosphere or like a ecosphere or whatever, however we want to say it. I think there's just so many collectors in that world that I feel like there should be a bubble. Like your economist had kind of points to, I feel like there's a bubble coming, but you never know because the collector base is so incredibly strong. On the sports card side, I think the latest, the most recent activity, and we talked about this before when we saw like the gem rates for one of the biggest gem rate cards was the Gryff89 Gryffie, or like the most submitted to PSA at one point. And that was pretty recent. And I remember us kind of giving the opinion that I think that's a lot of people returning to the hobby, like digging into their collections from back in the day and kind of returning and submitting to PSA. And obviously the submitting process is a lot more user-friendly these days. So it's easy to just walk up to your local card shop or do it yourself. So I feel like the collector base in sports cards is sort of returning. Maybe not as robust as Pokemon, but that gives me some confidence that we could be seeing a bit of a run with sports cards. And I mean, we're seeing it on the high end, right? So the record sales, and I'm assuming the record sales numbers, a lot of it is TCG related. Sure. Yeah. But clearly what people are seeing on Instagram and what people are seeing on social media is the big boy sales, like the big collectors are spending big time money on really, really rare cards. So I think that is giving confidence to a lot of collectors like us, like everyday Joe Schmo collectors that spend $100 a year, $1,000 a year, not so big money. So yeah, I could see this being, maybe not like pandemic level, like that was a little bit too crazy. But I think we might be seeing a healthy run here, which is really exciting for all sports card collectors. Yeah. For sure. I agree with you. We've discussed this in the pod before too. It does feel different than the pandemic peaks, the pandemic hype. I think you still have a little bit of that in this run where there are people that are looking to flip, make a profit because they're seeing the money flowing in. So you're going to always attract those kinds of investor types, not real true collectors in that sense. So I'm sure that's propping up some of the numbers. But to your point, I think there are also genuine collectors coming back to the hobby, which is creating this more solid foundation for this run. So I think we're going to see a correction at some point, but I don't think it's going to be as drastic as the one we saw post COVID, right? Right. And you're right, I think TCG has a lot to do with it. And every time Roy and Will, we've been having them on the show monthly just because of the TCG hype and WWE cards are booming as well. But I think we're all on the same page when we think it's pretty much a bubble. But we just don't know when it's going to pop. And I don't think it'll be, even for Pokemon, I don't think the correction won't be as drastic as we saw with sports cards in 2022, 2023. But we'll see. We've been wrong before in this hobby, wildly unpredictable, but it's fun nonetheless. But yeah, it's kind of exciting to see. The other thing I want to mention was the 400 plus million dollars in online transaction, which is amazing. And people can say, oh, there's a Kevin O'Leary sale with MJ, Kobe, Duel Logo Man, but that only accounts for 13 million out of the 400 million, right? So there's a lot of volume being done on eBay, on all the online auction houses. So that's, I don't know, that's another bullish sign for me. You know, it's going to be interesting because I feel like we're, in terms of the show, we're kind of going down the path of the pandemic. When we first started the show, we were always talking about what's the next thing that it'd be worthy investing in. So I'm actually going to be interested in hearing people's opinions. Especially right now for sports cards, the GOATs are making their run, right? Like if you own something special, like an MJ or Kobe, Tom Brady, like the GOATs are kind of making their run right now. But what's next? Like is vintage, you know, everything kind of suppressed and went down, is vintage going to be the next one to make a comeback? Is it now the time to really invest in sort of the non-GOAT legends? You know, the Peyton Manning's, the Barry Bonds, like is it time to go for those guys? Is it time to go back to like Luka Doncic and go back to sort of like quasi-modern? So it's going to be an interesting conversation where collectors and investors alike start talking about what's the next, you know, what's the next thing to go for? Yeah, there are definitely cycles to everything, man. When you just mentioned Luka Doncic, I was going to joke. I don't know if you should go back to Doncic's Silver Prism as a play. Once we start doing that, it might truly be a bubble. But one of the lessons I think we've learned because of that pandemic hype and then that bubble bursting is a lot more people are more savvy, right? We're not going for the non-numbered cards or we're not spending crazy amounts on non-numbered cards because, you know, we've definitely even collectively here on this pile, we held a bag on, you know, cards like Lewis Robert and other players, you know, that their cards aren't as rare, you know, so we don't want to be doing the same thing. But it is an interesting question. I'm curious to see what the next play is for a lot of these collector and investor types. All right, let's move on to hobby headlines. Okay, I'm going to switch gears a little bit, but a lot of people in the hobby seem to be talking about this one as well, and it's about a card show, the Lake Worth card show to be specific, which announced a new policy banning customer-to-customer trades or sales unless you're a vendor, right? Unless you purchase a table at the show. Now if you look at any of the comments in, you know, these posts, the majority of people think this is ridiculous and there's definitely some backlash against the card show. But to be fair, I'm sure there are organizers of other card shows that feel the same way or similar as the Lake Worth card show, and if I'm going to play devil's advocate, I would say that if you allow trades or sales to happen between collectors, then what's the point of setting up and paying a fee to have a table at a card show? Then in turn, that would threaten the existence of that card show perhaps in the future. If you don't have enough vendors to support the show, or you can always raise the fee to enter the show, but that might also deter people from coming to the show. So that would be the argument, I guess, the general argument, I guess, from these card show organizers as why to implement this kind of policy. But yeah, John, I'm curious, what are your initial thoughts on this matter? Yeah, I think I agree with the general sentiment. It's a little old school minded. The hobby is changing and you have to sort of adapt with the times. I can understand it from a business perspective, I can understand it. But there, I mean, a lot of these shows, and not to knock on a lot of folks here, but there's a lot of legacy vendors, you know, they sort of, the old man on the porch imagery, if you will, you know, get out of here, you young kids, get off my porch. There's a lot of that kind of happening in the hobby. So there's these legacy, they're just getting pissed off at anything. They're getting pissed off at young kids walking around trying to wheel and deal them. They're getting pissed off at, I don't know, the whole breaking aspect. And I mean, I'm not a big fan of the breaking thing either, but this is the evolution of the hobby. And at some point, even if you're a legacy guy, even if you're older, you have to kind of accept this is the way it's morphing. And if kids, if young, not even kids, even us, like walking into car shows and we're doing trades on the side, making deals on the side, that's now a part of the ecosystem in the car show space. And that actually what makes me excited to go to a car show, if I'm being honest, making deals, because I don't want, I love making deals with dealers too, but you're going to run into a lot of dealers that are completely unfair. They're wanting 60% on comps and then they're asking 130% on comps on the card you want. So then I'm just not going to deal with that guy. And then there's a collector here that goes, Oh, you're actually interested in that car. Like I, I actually have it. Let's work on a deal. Like, boom, you're, you're getting, it's just more options for the people entering the show. And it creates a better experience, whether it may, it may not create a great experience for that particular vendor. But I think this is a real learning lesson for them on how they should go about their business at these car shows. Like this is the way it's done. And I, there's some etiquette involved. Let's not get it twisted. Like you don't just walk up to a vendor's table and start dealing with another person at the guy's table. Like there's, there's, there's some etiquette, but I mean, I, there is a little portion that I could be a little bit empathetic. I'm not going to completely swing one way. You do see a lot of sort of deals happening right outside of the show. It's an easy way for people to kind of go to a place where they know there's going to be a lot of people with a lot of cards and you start doing all these crazy deals in the lobby and kids are making up like makeshift tables and they're kind of skirting the, skirting the system a little bit. You're going to see some of that too, but yeah, overall I think it's, it's the old man on the porch waving his fist and it's a, it's, yeah, you can see why they're getting criticized by the, by the comments. I'm not surprised. Yeah. I'm not surprised either because that was my first reaction. I'm like, this is, this sounds really short sighted and you know what, if, if I guess it's not a big deal for bigger shows, like I went to the national this summer, I went to FanFest again and you're seeing people making deals on the side all the time and, and the organizers of these bigger shows don't care. And you could argue, I guess that it doesn't matter to them because they still have the volume going to all these different dealers and vendors. But I don't know how big that Lake Worth card show is. Maybe it's a smaller show. I'm gathering it's a smaller show. And so there's a bigger impact on people doing side deals and it could take away from some of the vendors, but at the same time, kind of to your point, like that's the draw for a lot of collectors to make as many deals as possible, whether it's with a vendor or with a fellow customer, right? So if you play it out, then just say you ban these shows, like actually there was a sign. I don't, I don't know if this is from the Lake Worth card show in the subsequent show, but the sign says any customers that are caught trying to sell cards, buy cards or make deals with cards, uh, with any other customers without buying a table will be thrown out. Okay. So that was, that's what the science is a little aggressive to me, but you know, if I saw that, I'm like, I don't know if I want to come back to this show to tell you the truth. You know, if, especially if it's, if it's a smaller show and there's only 50 vendors, let's say that that's how many there are. And I just don't like the inventory. Why would I come back for the next show? You know? Um, but if I knew that there were other collectors coming and, and uh, I could make a deal with them. Um, I might come and I might still check out the other tables just in case there are cards that I like from vendors that are there. But if I have a bad first experience or not even a bad one, but I just leave empty handed the likelihood of me coming back to that show, knowing that I can only buy from vendors. at the show and if they're the same vendors like they're you know a lot of these shows the same vendors come month after month i'm probably not going to come back so i think that's what i mean by short-sightedness the organizers want to expand the hobby you want to do better business you want more customers to come in and i think taking away these you know essentially it's trade night right and trade nights are growing in popularity it draws people in essentially if you're banning that i think you're just harming the business model of the card show overall yeah i mean when you take a step back this is like you know for some of those vendors that are really complaining i saw someone i can't remember who posted sports card investors somebody post a lot of the big the big boys are posting about the this lake show right a lake worth card show but the first the post had two images the first image was the actual lake worth card show post about you will be kicked out the thing that you explain and in the second picture was i think a vendor's rant i think it was on facebook or instagram something but this long rant about how he's so pissed off at these kids coming in and yada yada yada and yeah get out of here for you know like if you're not gonna i go through my you're affecting my business i buy the tables and you're doing this and that and you're like it's pissing me off but i mean when for those people like this is simple like market dynamics consumer and supplier right like yes if you have products set up and 10 people walk by and they're like they're not interested because you just don't have the products that they want right yeah if you happen to have a product that they want but some other table or some other kid has the exact same product now you're not competing with two or three others to make that sale right so whether it's you're competing with another vendor or you're competing with a kid in the lobby if you don't make the sale and you lose it to the kid in the lobby the kid in the lobby did something better than you they made a trade their their numbers were better than you whatever it was that they did it was better it's just simple market dynamics you had a price too expensive you're being greedy you're you weren't you're the guy was looking to trade in and you're giving him 60 on comps and he was like well you know what like i this kid outside is making a deal with me and we're gonna go you know we're gonna go straight one for one or whatever whatever the the or you buy it for a little bit cheaper but it's just simple market dynamics in my mind if you lose out on the deal it's not because these kids are making deals on the side and that's ruining your businesses because you gotta you have product there and you're just not selling it properly that's that's just my opinion that maybe i'm being a little bit too harsh but no if you lose out on a deal like i mean that's that's on you man that's a you gotta step back and rethink how you're pricing your cards step back and rethink how you're negotiating with people how you're treating people maybe you're being a big grouch i don't know right so yeah totally um that totally makes sense to me and i agree with you and i love how we're like the imagery that we're thinking of is this grumpy old man it could be a young guy too i guess um but sorry to the grumpy old man you're probably right though you're probably right they're probably grumpy old man but but uh yeah no like honestly what are you gonna what are you gonna say next ebay is ruining my sales i wish people would stop buying and selling online you know they need to come to my vendor or my shop it's like that's ridiculous right at a certain point you gotta adjust to how the market works you know where and you know part of the coming to car show is the human interaction that's a plus you know if especially if it's local so again it speaks to what you're saying how you treat your customers you know i would gladly spend a little bit more if i really appreciated the owner of a card store or or a vendor that i'm familiar with because i know i'm getting fair deals and and uh if i know that then i'd be glad to make more deals with them especially if they have the inventory that i like right so for sure yeah yeah i mean we can all admit it we as even as a vendor i'm sure i've never been a vendor but i'm sure vendors will also say i have a lot of returning customers and i actually going to the expo i haven't gone to the national before but going to the expo in toronto when i go in there i usually look for the guys that i've dealt with before the guys that treated me well that's super fair that i enjoyed had a great experience with and you're right that customer service element for some of these vendors that they're just so black and white with money they don't realize there is a cut there is a customer service element if you treat the person buying at the table really well really fair look at king of cards like his content is absolutely exploding and everybody is in love with it because he is dealing with people the way they want to be dealt with like he's it's just the perfect imagery of what everybody wants in an experience in a vendor you know experience and he's doing it perfectly and that's why his content is exploding that's somebody these vendors should be looking at and being like i i should adjust and start being like that because the customer service element i think is super underrated in the vendor experience yeah is there anything else you would want to see like if you're a vendor and you know this is going on there's competition but if you're a vendor what would you do to attract more people to your booth like you know there i think that's this is where creativity comes in and maybe this is a question for roy and will because they set up at von kahn recently and i think the next time we meet for a podcast i'll ask this very same question and i think i think neither of them mind having people do side deals outside or trade nights even but you know what other than pricing your cards fairly that's that's an obvious one i wonder what else you can do in terms of being a dealer to to you know get more people to come your way right i think for for and i haven't been to roy's booth um he's only set up once or twice but knowing who they are as friends like we know them really well yeah and and they're not grizzled vendors right they're they're new to it so they're going to be it's going to be pretty organic like they're they're going to be there almost like a collector selling to other collectors yeah and i think that although it's very natural to them and it's very organic i think a lot of collectors approaching vendor booths you know if you're like an old grizzled vendor sometimes that can be a little bit intimidating right because you you kind of brought like what are you offering 80 bucks no that's that's that's brutal like no like i'm not interested and like for a lot of people approaching a vendor like that's like oh that's kind of intimidating this guy's a little bit intimidating yeah i get he's he's being black and white there's a lot of customers he's got to be quick but for someone like roy and will like approaching them they're going to be like collector first mindset and you walk in you're probably having like a nice conversation about the hobby and all of that stuff and i think that that will go a long way obviously they're not just going to get sales right away and that really has that component is the product that they actually have yeah but i think organically similar to carrying cards if you keep treating people the right way you keep having positive interactions you're going to get returning customers you're going to be start to get known as all this guy's really fair if you ever go to the card show go visit roy he's got really great cards and it's actually very very fair and he actually buys at 85 percent comps yada yada you start growing a reputation i think that's how you kind of grow organically yeah and and i think not to overdo this old grizzled uh vendor analogy or description uh but i think the new way of doing things is to put yourself out there more whether it's online or or um through just your previous in-person interactions right um to create this good impression for them to return the next time and you know to your point king of the cards is a great example but when i was at the national i saw i don't know if you're familiar with talent sports cards he has a big online following really nice guy talks to everyone that comes up there's a lineup for his booth okay and at the national there are a lot of booths but there was a lineup for his because they want to just talk with him and try to make a deal with him and uh it's it's not that he has different cards than other vendors like he has a lot of downtowns guess what a lot of other vendors have downtowns but he's willing to make a deal uh they just like uh enjoy his content so they kind of feel like they already know him so that uh you know they don't feel like they're going to be ripped off and um if there's no deal he's generally respectful um and and they you know you leave not feeling bad but you you feel good that you actually had an in some kind of interaction with uh with talent sports cards so i think that all comes to what we're saying you know um i feel like the ones that do have the bigger complaints about these side deals going on are i would guess and i would assume they're these vendors that have been just used to be that are just used to doing something a certain way for so long and yeah hobby's changing you know every time we come on the pod this is this is why we're still doing the pot it's evolving so much every week that we're having something new to discuss and i think um hobbyists vendors collectors investors we all have to adjust as the hobby does so i think that's an interesting point of discussion we'll see what happens with the lakeworth card shop i'm really curious to see if the numbers do well but if i'm going to place a bet i think it's going to be more damaging than beneficial with this new band policy in place so we will see all right let's move on to our next segment of the show and it's called quiz show all right now that august is over and summer is pretty much done as we're mentioning off the top gem rate released some data for card grading for the month of august so that's the theme of today's quiz show okay um i have five questions for you john name in order the four major grading companies that had the most cards graded for august 2025 to the least so the four major grading companies which which had the most cards graded to the least right psa number one of course uh number two i have to assume is uh cgc csg are they the same company cgc yeah yeah yeah i think they're probably number two oh sgc i think they've been pretty bad right i think sgc i beckett's bad too sgc has really been tanking i'll give sgc the third spot i feel like he there they might be going really down there but because beckett's really bad so it's got to be sgc and then beckett beckett's really grading is probably still a little bit niche yeah i think those are the four i think it's psa cgc sgc beckett yeah you got it exactly like that psa 1.66 million million cards graded for august then second is cgc with 438 000 uh sgc third with 118 000 and uh you're right beckett uh finishing fourth with 64 000 right oh man cgc is killing sgc why do you think that is i think the answer is pretty obvious probably well the tcg component yeah i think so too i think so too for sure yeah um all right uh you know this was the third question but i think you kind of alluded to it so i'll ask this question next year over year from august 24 to august 20 to august 2025 which grading company saw the biggest decrease definitely like i haven't been paying attention to numbers but i'm pretty i'm pretty sure sgc and cgc i mean didn't sgc have the two spot right i could i could have sworn they had the two spot so the last year yeah so the fact that cgc's have 400 000 submissions and sgc's at 118 like that's yeah i can't like i mean beckett's been going down but as you see like that's uh that's a sad state of affairs like i that they're number one in terms of drop i'd have to imagine you're right you got it sgc um year over year minus 29 percent and even month over month from july to august is minus 23 which is also the biggest drop well um you know i guess we didn't talk about this on the pot but maybe we could just spend a minute or so on it now we've heard that peter steinberg the former president of sgc who's integral i think a lot of people thought that he did a really good job with sgc announced that he was stepping down he was very cordial about it but i guess most people think that it's because psa really since they bought it and since we kind of expected um they're not putting as many resources into sgc uh it seems and maybe the rumor is that peter steinberg was didn't feel good about it and thought that this was a good time to leave um the company what do you think uh yeah what do you think of uh just where sgc is now as a brand and and do you think psa is doing the right thing with sgc yeah this whole situation like i think peter did a great job of bringing sgc into the number two spot like he really i mean he he beat beckett i mean beckett to a certain extent beat themselves right but he he did a great job in in surpassing beckett and then psa bought sgc and since then i don't like i don't know what they've done with sgc i feel like they just kind of left them to the side and put all their eggs in psa basket and just walk over their own company if they had to and at this point i don't know like this time next year, I could feel like SGC is like, just completely finished. Wow, like maybe that's a hot take. And they won't be they won't be completely gone. But in terms of relevance and brand power, like I think by this time next year, based on the trajectory, I think we could really see a complete decline of SGC. Like I don't at this point, you ask any of our hobby friends, there's really no reason to submit anything to SGC. And I think a lot of people aren't even that happy, even the thought of like, Oh, I really like the tuxedo look, I don't even see people saying that anymore. Because I mean, if your cards are not even worth half of PSA 10, like as much as you like the tuxedo look, you're not gonna like that aspect. So you're gonna be like, screw that. It's not worth the tuxedo look. So I don't I don't know, like I just, it makes me question why PSA even bought SGC, if they knew they could just maybe they saw Peter as a threat. And they're like, you know what, instead of losing market share, let's just buy them. And the death of SGC will be our gain of market share, right? Like, I don't know, like, maybe they're just like, it's better to buy them out and continue maybe bleeding losses. But it seems kind of weird. I feel like they PSA with the right strategy. And based on their current strategy, they could have beat out SGC anyways. I don't know. It's really, it's all really kind of confusing how PSA has treated this whole purchase. But me like really, maybe it was just them buying it out to stop the bleeding. And then that was that was it. Zero strategy involved after the fact let SGC kind of burn to the wayside. Yeah, no, that's that's those are good questions to ask. But I mean, where we are now, it seems that that's one of the reasons why PSA bought out SGC just to get rid of the competition. In that sense, you know, they were nice about at the beginning. But in reality, maybe this was their end game. Right. And, and I think, you know, I've said on this pot before, the SGC vintage, I think could be a, you know, a thing that they could really focus on and really keep a niche that way. But other than that, yeah, as modern, no one's going to SGC. I mean, 100. I was just looking at the numbers. I should say no one's going to 112,000 cards out of the what, 118,000. So almost the whole thing were sports cards going to SGC. And I think that's because of the value. You know, it's pretty cheap. I think they had some promos. And it's generally cheaper to send to SGC than to PSA. But that means with TCG booming, only 6000 went to SGC. Like no one from the TCG community is sending their cards to SGC. Like their fourth place when it comes to that category. Right. So that's interesting. But yeah, I think the expectation for a lot of people now is that like you said, SGC is just going to continue to decline, especially if sports cards was the thing that was propping them up. And if that's decreasing, double digit decreases month by month, year over year, it's not a good sign for SGC. So something to keep an eye on. Yeah, too bad. You know, I think there's people suggesting that Peter Steinberg should go to Beckett. Maybe he could do something there to really revive that brand. That'd be an interesting news development if that ever happened. Yeah. And the craziest development and all of this is I think everyone is probably in agreement that Beckett has the better chance of revival over SGC, which is kind of crazy to say. But yeah, I think it's pretty obvious they have, especially with the black label still being super relevant and all that stuff. Beckett still has the opportunity to come back. Beckett probably was the one that was celebrating the hardest when they heard Peter Steinberg stepping down and SGC is heading towards the wrong direction. All right. This was an easy one for you to year over year the other way from August 2024 to August 2025. The highest increase was 156%. Which grading company was that? You already mentioned it. It's SGC. Yep. And that is primarily due as we expected to the growth of TCG cards, Pokemon cards in particular, out of the 438,000 cards total that were graded in August, 402,000 were TCG cards. Holy, that's crazy. So the other way, not as many sports card collectors are going to CGC, but TCG is, yeah, that's definitely besides PSA, CGC is the second choice by far. All right. Speaking of PSA, question number four, they're still dominating, of course. Of the 1.66 million cards PSA graded in August, how many were TCG cards? Wow. You know, when I look at social media, as impressive as those CGC numbers are, I'm still seeing almost everything Pokemon, especially Pokemon, is PSA. I'm not really seeing CGC out there on social media. So I don't know, of the 1.6, I'm going to say like a million was TCG. Like a big number, like at least 50%, at least 800,000, I'm going to guess, but I'm going to say a million. That's pretty good. 970,000. Oh, almost 970,000. Damn, I'm killing it. You're doing well. After these extended time off from the pod, whenever you come back, you kill these quiz shows. Maybe that's what it takes. Yeah, yeah. But yeah, almost a million if you round up, right? Holy cow. That's crazy. And like 1% of that million is from Roy. He just got a huge PSA sub. Yeah, I saw his real, oh, incredible return. Yeah, he did. He's doing well. We'll ask him to talk about it next time he's on the pod, but you're right. Like PSA, it's still dominating. You get the most value, just like sports cards. If it PSA tens, oh man, the multiplier of Pokemon cards, especially right now is pretty crazy. And the only thing I'm like, with Pokemon cards and TCG, pop count doesn't matter as much. We talked about it before in the pod, but pop count doesn't matter as much apparently for some of these Pokemon cards. Which is wild to think. I remember when Roy's talking and he's like, yeah, the pop count is pretty low. It's at like 5,000 PSA tens. Like, whoa. Like in the sports card world, we would be just torturing that card. 5,000. Oh man, that's like, what is that? Like prison base? That's brutal. But in the Pokemon space, it's like, wow. It goes to show how many collectors there are and how many people are getting the cards and keeping it in their collection. So even if it is 5,000, there aren't that many floating out there in the wild. I mean, I'm sure at 5,000 PSA, there would be a pretty decent chunk, but not like the sports card world where everybody's flipping those cards. Yeah, it's true. It's true. All right. Last question. The next three out of the number of cards that PSA has graded are all sports. Okay. So you got almost 1 million going to TCG. The next three are sports cards. Can you name them in order from highest number of cards graded to the lowest? Which sport is number two, which sport is number three, and which sport is number four for PSA? Sports only. Yep. Graded. I think the flipping game is super strong in football. I'm going to guess football is number one. Okay. So you want top three? Yeah, in order. So you're saying football is the highest sport because you're taking TCG away. I think football is number one. Yep. Then it's got to be either obviously baseball or basketball. Baseball's got Broman, which has got a huge flip component. And basketball, I mean, basketball's got Wemby. So I go basketball two, I go baseball three. Football, basketball, baseball. Man, you're so close to getting a perfect score. It is football. You're right about that. Okay. Football had about 228,000 cards graded in August by PSA. And then it's baseball with 193,000-ish. Oh, Wemby, you let me down. And we're in baseball card season as well. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're in the midst of it still, playoff runs coming up. Oh, man, Wemby third season, I should have known. It's not even like a rookie year. If you had an extra one minute to think about it, you probably would have come to that conclusion. But yes, basketball, 150,000 cards graded by PSA. Yeah. And then there's a huge drop off. So from TCG, football, baseball, basketball, and then a huge drop off to fifth, which is non-sport, 42,000. And then it goes back to sports again, which is soccer, 26,000. And then hockey, 21,000. Wow. Yeah. Hockey, man, come on. You know, like looking at all these numbers, it's wild to think that CGC component of the 400,000 submitted was like, what was the number again? It was like 4- 465,000. Yes. TCG. Yeah. If PSA is killing the TCG component, right? I mean, you're starting to collect Pokemon, and I know Roy, I've only seen him submit to PSA. And I would assume, Clark, if you're going to submit a bunch of Pokemon cards, you're going to PSA. Only to PSA, yes. Right. This time next year, if we look at these numbers, I mean, at this point, I feel like based on the trajectory, PSA is also going to gobble up CGC on the TCG side. CGC has not much of a presence in sports cards, clearly. So they only have to gobble up CGC on the TCG component. Then they just completely dominate. By this time next year, are we seeing 2 million on PSA? 50,000 Beckett, less than 100,000 CGC, and SGC, who knows? 20,000. Are we going to see that where it's just like, the other grading companies now have become completely niche. You're only going to them because you like the slab, or you like the look, or you're loyal to them. Kind of like tag grading. Tag grading is, I don't know how much they're actually doing, but you see them on Instagram a lot, right? Because I think a lot of people like the component that you can, like how detailed they are in what they did and how they came to the grade. And also, I actually personally, I like the visual of the slab. I think it looks great. Yes, me too. But yeah, outside of, I feel like at this point, it's going to be PSA and everything else is going to be niche. You know what? That's not out of the realm of possibility, that's for sure. But if you're saying that down the road, PSA might purchase CGC, that's a possibility. I mean, if their strategy worked on SGC, clearly they gobbled up all of SGC. I'm like, CGC, don't do it. Look what happened to SGC. Just don't do it. Remain your own brand. You got some loyal customers, okay? I think CGC are happy with the current numbers, to tell you the truth. They don't have to be number one, right? Sure. They're doing well. Yeah. But the point is their bread and butter is Pokemon. Yes. And if right now, as PSA is just completely gobbling up Pokemon, is the writing not on the wall for CGC? No matter what they do, they can market more, they can try to be more creative, but it's going to be an insane challenge for them to keep their numbers without having PSA dig into their market share. They do have a pristine, I think it's pristine, black 10, kind of similar to the Beckett black label. Oh, yeah. With the gold, the embossed gold font. Yeah. So maybe market that a little bit more. That looks pretty sweet. I wouldn't mind having one of those. And I think they do better than PSA 10. Maybe that's a question for Roy, but they have value. So maybe, I mean, that being said, the black label for Beckett can only do so much for Beckett as a grading company. But they have the volume right now. I think the bigger question is once the TCG market cools down, which I think we all agree will have to cool down at some point, what will happen to CGC? Will there not be that much volume to sustain CGC as a company? I don't know. I guess it depends how much it cools off, but that's a question for me. Whenever that happens. Right. So this part I'm not aware of because I've taken such a long break. So maybe this is a component. Is CGC's return a lot quicker than PSA? What do you mean? The grading returns. So when you submit it, do they give it back to you within two weeks? How's PSA? I'm not aware of- Good question. How quick it is. Because I know that's how SGC kind of made their mark was when PSA was really struggling with turnaround times. That's the term I was trying to use. Right, right. Struggling with turnaround times. They took advantage and stepped in there and not only gave good prices, but was like, we'll be able to get it door to door to you in 15 business days, right? And that was a big component of why a lot of people, and maybe a lot of people right now, I don't know, but- but are people using CGC because the turnaround time is so much greater that they can flip car, whatever they need to do with, right? Yeah, I think PSA is also getting better in that regard too. So that's kind of scary, right? PSA has their express service. The only thing CGC could do right now is, yeah, sure, the turnaround times could be quick and maybe it is quick. But I'm sure it's definitely not as expensive to grade with CGC than it is with PSA, right? So maybe that's a competitive advantage they have. And unlike SGC, I don't think CGC has done that great a job marketing themselves as a premier grading company. So maybe that's something they could invest in. Like, hey, CGC, this is our brand. I think TAG's done a better job than CGC. For sure. To tell you the truth, right? Does CGC even have a social media? Do they even have an Instagram account? I don't even know if I've ever seen anyone from the company step up and do anything. They do, but to your point, yeah, I don't know how many people know about it or it's in your face. The algorithm certainly doesn't feed it to me. And it's funny when I go to a card show, they have a booth, but it looks like the booth is from the 90s. You know what I mean? It's just like, you know, they got to update their signage, I think. That's my opinion. But they could do a lot more on the marketing front. Maybe that's a good play. Maybe that's a good investment for them. It's like the office where they show the office when they're at the convention and they're just sitting there with like a piece of paper. Come on, CGC. Don't be like those guys in the office. The show. Yeah, no, that's a good comp. All right. Well, you did pretty well. Four out of five. I'll give you 4.5. I'll give you 0.5 on that last. So congrats on a high score. All right. Let's finish our show with our regular weekly segment we call Pick One. Since Hyung's not here, John, do you want to start things off for us? Yeah, let's do it. So we know GOATs are making their bull run right now. And outside of GOATs, I think it's still Otani. It's like the GOATs, it's always something. Sports cars was only Otani at one point. And now the GOATs have caught up. But it's the GOATs and Otani. It doesn't look like this guy is going to stop. Right. Like the hype. There is the hype train. And we're past the, you know, the honeymoon stage of the first year. Like we're way past that. But this guy is such a freaking unicorn that with the hype, there is so much confidence behind it that he's going to go down as like the greatest ever. He may not. He's got his championships already. He may not like break records. So like numbers wise, I think that I don't know if he's going to get that chance. But just the fact that he's such a unicorn, like there's just so much confidence and the money clearly is behind it. So my question is going to be if you're an investor. Whether new or existing, right. You've been in the game for a while or like brand new coming in and you're going to go into baseball. Are you going to go Otani or anything else in baseball? It could be vintage. It could be Babe Ruth. It could be whatever. Juan Soto, underrated studs, the super suppressed Mike Trout at this point. Anything other than Shohei. Is it Shohei or is it anything else in baseball? Kabooms, whatever. I don't even know if there's a Kaboom. Or like the old school Kaboom. Anything. What are we doing? First of all, why are you going to rub salt on the wound by mentioning the Mike Trout card? That's unnecessary. Shohei still has the Mike Trout card. He's having a relatively healthy year for his standards. He's been injured for 20 games or so. I don't know. I haven't really followed too much. That's all I can ask for right now. Just keep playing. Stack those numbers. He's stuck on 20 home runs. Too shy away from 400. I'm waiting for that to happen. Kaboom. Will has a lot of unlicensed Kaboom baseball cards. Going back to your question. It's the same reason why I still don't have a Shohei. Other than being really priced out of the ones that I want. And I'm now looking at the 2nd and 3rd tier Shohei Otani cards I have. I like that play because I think Otani, like you were mentioning in your intro to the segment, he's a unicorn. And I think there are some cards that are really nice to have that I can still appreciate in value. That being said, there's so many baseball cards out there that means there's so many plays still to be had. And I think it's more fun. I wouldn't feel as good paying even $1,000 on an Otani card. Whatever I could get for $1,000. Probably 4th tier cards at this point. Versus even, you know, we're going to talk Joe Natang before Hyung had to step out. But someone that I think is exciting to follow for short term, I think I would rather prefer to do that. So I get what you're saying. But there's a part of me too, I hate paying high for anything. So that's another thing. Do we at this point feel like Otani is going to come down? There's going to be a buying opportunity for Otani. Because it's looking, man, it's looking like Toronto real estate. Yeah, it might come down a little, but it's just going to keep going up. Yeah, that's the scary part. Are we just completely missing? We've been saying we want to get into a nice Otani card for like the last three years. And we're just missing the boat after missing the boat after missing the boat. But I think that's the reality. You know, if we're comparing to Toronto real estate, my dreams of buying a detached house are over. I'm looking for a townhouse at this point, you know, if I'm lucky. So yeah, I'm going to go with the other cards. It's just the rest of the field is still so huge. There's got to be some place I could make that, well, you know, hopefully generate profits so I can buy a Shoei Otani down the road. I think, you know, the way you lay it out, the easy answer is probably the rest of the field because there's just so much out there. But man, I think the point that I'm just trying to make is I'm now not too sure about if Shoei Otani is going to come down. It'll slow down. It might come down, but I don't know if it's going to come down a lot like we thought. Like it went up and it should in the offseason. The only thing at this point, and nobody wants to see this, is if he has some kind of crazy injury. Like that would really kind of suppress his cards and really bring it down. But as a fan, it's just like Otani's got no haters. He's like the ultimate marketing tool. He's big. He's good looking. He appeals to international markets. He's swinging home runs. He's striking out batters. There's no end to this guy. So if I'm strictly wearing my investor hat, I think the diversifying your portfolio thing makes a lot of sense. And I think that's the easy answer and that's going to be also my answer. But I'm just making the point that, man, it does feel like Shoei versus the field right now. It does. It does. I mean, he seems to be bulletproof. There's been other stuff in the news about Otani. The whole gambling thing, of course, which was his translator. And then this real estate thing. I don't know if you saw that news. Him and some real estate agent getting into trouble trying to, I don't know, just Google it. I think I saw a snippet of it. I didn't look into it. Yeah. So, you know, even these off the field news doesn't seem to be impacting him. But if you're looking at recent trends, I was curious since you brought up Shoei, the last time it dipped. OK, like even to your point, it dips, but it creates a brand new floor. Like it's so much higher than the previous floor. So the last time it dipped. And if you're going to play trends, the perfect time to buy next is February of this coming year. Because last year, January 2024 was the peak. And it dipped for a few months, February to March, April, I think. Let me double check. Yeah, February to early May. And then the skyrocket happens again. And that hasn't gone back down since May of 2025. So, yeah, maybe, you know, if you see that dip early next year, I wouldn't expect a huge dip. But consider that your new floor. So if you're looking to get an Otani card, that's maybe the best time to get the one you really want at that point. Right. Question, if Otani did have a grave injury, right? Like everyone says, I'm really, I'm all in on Otani. You know, the moment there's an opportunity to buy like a real crazy opportunity, I'm all in, I'm going. Right. Yeah. Really, at this point, it would be something like that, like a grave injury where he's just out for like a year or two, like solid. Yeah. But if that happens, a lot of people kind of, like you and I, as much as we would be like, this is when I'm going in. You know, we'd probably shy away with it. Right. Like it's kind of like Jason Tatum. You're going on, he's got Achilles injury for a full season. Like I think most people at this point are not probably, they know the right answer is if I'm going for Tatum long term, I should go now. But it's just such a not exciting slash risky play that you even, you'll talk yourself out of it. So let's say Otani does have a grave injury right now and he's out for like two seasons and his career might be in jeopardy. Do you think this crazy run Otani had long term, his legacy will still uphold if the injury happened today? Like, is there still crazy injury risk with Otani? Man, I don't know, man. He's such a unicorn. Right. Like, do you think that he's now cemented his status or if his career ended, potentially it was close to ending today, you know? That's a really good question. I don't know. I don't know what to tell you the truth. Like when you're talking about injuries, he had a Tommy John, you know, that was a good time to get one. And then now he's proved all naysayers wrong about how good he is. Chicks still dig the long bomb, man. Who cares about the pitching? Yeah, I guess Tommy John doesn't impact your power. I mean, so if that was the case, he's like, oh shoot, another Tommy John. I'm in. But if it was more, this is the end of his career, I still think despite everything that he's done, I think you would see a decrease somewhat. I don't think it would go this. It would definitely, like a lot of people get scared. Like no question there would be a decrease. But let's say his car, like the Red Ink Auto, where it's a highly desired rookie car. It's, I don't know, right now it's at 25 grand. Let's say it drops to like 12. Yeah. Like, are you in? Right? But there's a potential he's done. Done, done? There's a potential he's done. So now it's just straight, like how good was his legacy? Are you in at 50%? No. I don't know. You know what I'm saying? Yeah, that's hard. That's hard. It's hard. Ask me in 10 years. I'm like, okay, he's got enough stats at that point. Even five years, even five years. But I still, this is, yeah, he's still young relatively. And he could accomplish so much more. Yeah, I think you answered it. I think the injury risk is still there. Yeah. The severity of the injury will matter. Yeah. He's getting close though. He's getting pretty close to like cementing a legacy. Every year he plays. Yeah, for sure. Exactly. I agree with you. That's a good one. All right. Let's finish with mine. I chose basketball for this one. SGA is 2018 select courtside gold rookie. 10 out of 10. Sorry, not the grade. The serial number is 10 out of 10. But the grade is PSA 9. Okay. That's sold for just over 10K. Or are you going with Cooper Flag? The new hot thing right now. 2024, 25. Bowman U Chrome. Red refractor number to five. PSA 8. Auto 10. And the auto is inscribed the brotherhood. The brotherhood. Based on Buick. Yeah. PSA 8. Auto 10. Red number to five versus the SGA select courtside gold number to 10. PSA 9. Right. Both sold for just over 10K. On card or sticker? I believe it's a sticker. Oh, boy. You already know. I already knew my answer. But that just put it over the top. That just cemented. Okay. Yeah. I mean, we obviously have a bit of a Canadian bias. Right. And select gold, that's, I mean, select as a brand has taken a pretty big punch over the years. So it's not the desired card. But it's up there. It's one of the big boy SGA cards. Cooper, I don't know. Bowman U is still not. Bowman U doesn't really do for me, if I'm being honest. If I'm going to spend 10 grand, I'd rather, I don't know. I'd still, like some people might say Bowman U, I don't know. one of his firsts, yada, yada, yada. But I think that sentiment, people are trying to force it. It only works with baseball. Baseball is so specific. There's just something about Bowman first. It still has the licensing, so it looks like a major league card. I think a lot of that really has to do, and it has a bit of a history. Bowman U, I'm not convinced. I don't think Bowman U, I'm just not, I'm not. If I'm gonna spend 10 grand on Cooper Flag, if, you know me, I'm not gonna buy anyone in the first three years, so regardless, I'm not picking Cooper Flag. But if I were, 10 grand, I'm going for his first Tops Grom. I'm going for his first Flawless. I don't even know if he's gonna have a Flawless anymore, but I'm going for something else that's NBA-related, not Bowman U, so this one's an easy for me. Whatever was on the other side, I was probably gonna pick anyways, and it's SGA Gold, like that's an easy one. Easy one for you, yeah. You know what, it was an easy one for me, but I wonder how many would have gone for Cooper knowing the hype of Cooper right now, it being a red refractor, number to five, of course, so really scarce. I know the sticker would have docked some points for a lot of people, but it is inscribed as well, so a lot of different factors in play, but I think for both of us, it was an easy SGA Gold select. Wondering if our listeners think the same way, or if you think you would have gone for Cooper, let us know. You can always DM us at CardsToTheMoon or at FiveCardGuys on Instagram. All right, that's it for the show. Thanks for tuning in. We'll have a brand new show for you next week. Talk to you then, bye. Hey, thanks for listening to Cards To The Moon. We'd really appreciate you subscribing to our podcast wherever you listen to your podcasts, and you can also connect with each of us on Instagram at FiveCardGuys, or you can follow Hyung at Integrity Sports Cards, or John at TradeUAtRecess. You can also check us out at FiveCardGuys.com. Thanks again, and hope to connect soon.