Hobby Jobs: Stay Close to the Problem with Josh Johnson, CTO of Card Ladder

Foreign. What's going on everybody? Welcome back to another episode of Hobby Jobs here on the Stacking Slabs Network. This is the show where we talk about building businesses in the sports card industry and we hear from builders themselves. Really excited about hobby jobs in the platform we are building here on the Stacking Slabs Network. So much great feedback from industry professionals about this content. The B2B side of the sports card industry is forming. It's maturing. This content is carving a wedge right in that zone for builders, operators, entrepreneurs. I have a ton of passion for this. This is an opportunity for me each week to talk about things that interest me as an individual building a business within the sports card industry, hear from others, learn, gain insights, and hopefully share that with all of you for the foreseeable future. Some really cool things happening right now behind the scenes at Hobby Jobs. Hopefully we get a chance to share some of those updates very soon. But what we are going to do in today's episode is share with you a conversation that I had with a good friend at the national and that is Josh Johnson, the Chief Technology Officer at Card Ladder. I have known Josh for some time now. We have never really had a conversation publicly about building Card Ladder and his mindset mentality, how he thinks about working with a team in the space. We get into that. It was a fun week at the national with Josh. We did our annual excursion with a group of hobby runners running on the trail system behind the convention center. Year two we've done that. It's one of my favorite parts of the trip. Before we get into that conversation, I want to share some perspective. And that perspective is the thinking around the difference between being able to build something and knowing what deserves to be built. The difference matters more today than I think it did a few years ago. The barrier to building a product has fallen. You no longer need years of technical training to take an idea and turn it into something people can use. Yu-Gi-Oh can help you write code, design an interface, organize data, and launch product faster than ever before. This creates opportunity. It also creates a lot of products. Searching for a Problem I receive messages from people building tools for the hobby all the time. They want feedback. They want introductions. They want help reaching collectors. In some cases, that person can explain every feature of the product but struggles to explain why it needs to exist. They started with the desire to build. They never spent enough time with the problem. That is one of the ideas that's at the center of my conversation with Josh. Josh has spent his career building tech. He worked inside companies such as Amazon he understands engineering systems, scale and product development. He also understands cards. The second part matters. Card Ladder was not created because Josh sat outside the hobby and identified a market he wanted to enter. He was already there. He was collecting. He was talking with other collectors. We had Chris on here recently, and Chris was doing work that Josh believed he could help automate. That work turned into graphs. The graphs turned into sales records. The sales records turned to more tools. One addition led to the next. Card Ladder grew out of problems its founders were experiencing themselves. They wanted to understand what cards were selling for. They wanted to see movement of a market. Instead of relying on small pieces of insight here and there or nuggets, they wanted better information when making decisions about their own collections. They built something they needed. Then they stayed close to the people who needed it. With them, the sequence is important. Live in the product. Understand the people affected by it. Build a solution. Listen to how many people use it, improve it, keep going. Many people want to reverse that order. If they build something, then they search for the person who needs it. Technology can speed up the act of building. It cannot replace the judgment required to know what is worth building. Yu-Gi-Oh makes that distinction easier to see. Josh talks in our conversation about the difference between an experienced engineer using Yu-Gi-Oh and someone relying on Yu-Gi-Oh to make every decision. The experienced engineer uses Yu-Gi-Oh as leverage. The tool helps that person move through work faster. The engineer still brings the architecture, judgment, context, and understanding of the user. The person guides the technology. We talk a lot about this on Built in the Hobby with the Inferno Red Team. When someone depends on Yu-Gi-Oh for the idea, the structure, and the execution, the products begin to all look the same. The creator has not developed enough judgment to make the decision that separates a useful product from another collection of features. Access to technology is no longer the advantage it once was. Taste is an advantage. Judgment is an advantage. Understanding the customer is an advantage. Knowing what not to build might be the biggest advantage of them all. That is where the card Ladder story becomes more than a technology story. It becomes a story about restraint. Josh spent three months before the national working to make Card Ladder perform better at the show. That work was not designed to produce a huge launch announcement. It did not create another feature for a marketing campaign. Most Card Ladder users will never know what he changed. They will only know when they are standing on the show Fleer and need information. The app just works. Think about the conditions inside the National Thousands of people using their phone. Collectors are moving through deals. Dealers are checking prices. People are trying to make decisions with another person standing across the TABLE Waiting for an Answer A slow product is not a small inconvenience. In that moment, speed becomes part of the value. Reliability becomes part of the brand. The work behind the experience is invisible until it fails. That is one of the parts of building a business that people most always overlook. Building is not one launch. It's it is not the moment when the logo goes live or the customer signs up. Building is waking up months or years later and improving the same thing. It is fixing the issue that bothers you even if no one else reports it. It is making search load faster. It is simplifying the signup process. It is preparing for demand before customers feel the strain. It is making the product work when people need it. Josh described Card Ladder's growth as slow and up and to the right. There was no single moment when everything changed. The team did not force growth beyond its ability to serve its users. They kept improving the product. They kept talking with collectors. They kept showing up at card shows. They kept doing the work for close to seven years. That answer will frustrate people looking for a shortcut. Seven years does not fit into a post about launching a business in 30 days. It is difficult to package consistency as a growth tactic because consistency does not produce an immediate result. You do the work today, then you do it again tomorrow. Most days don't feel important. The value appears when enough of those days are stacked together. A collector walks into a card shop and the buyer asks, do you go by Card Ladder values? This just happened to me recently. Think about what needed to happen for Card Ladder to become part of the language of the transaction. The product had to earn trust with the shop. It had to earn trust with the seller. The information needed to be useful. The app needed to work. Both sides needed to understand what Card Ladder value meant. No advertising campaign creates that position by itself. That position is earned through repeated use. Consistency is not a card Ladder secret, as Josh says in our conversation. It's a life principle. He connects it to running. You do not become a runner because you had one strong run. You run today, then you run again. Your ability changes because you stayed with the work. Josh organized the run during the national last year. I joined him with a group of collectors around 6am we ran 10 miles on trails behind the convention center. Getting up was not fun. There was no part of me at 5:30 in the morning that thought running 10 miles was the right way to start a long day at the National a year later. I remember the run. I remember talking about cards and deals and moving through trades. I Remember the people. I remember the experience. I remember the alarm. That is another part of building something that lasts. The work often asks for payment before it provides the reward. You give it time before it gives you momentum. You serve people before they trust you. You build the foundation before anyone notices the building. People entering the sports card industry need to understand this. Skills from the outside, the hobby have value here. The industry needs engineers, needs marketers. It needs salespeople. It needs financial leaders. It needs product managers, recruiters, designers, operators. Bringing those skills into the hobby does not mean the hobby needs to conform to the way another industry works. Collectors can tell when someone enters the space to extract from them. They know when the product is being forced into their lives. They know when a company is using the language of community without participating in the community. Josh makes this point when he talks about people entering the hobby from technology. You need humility. You need a willingness to spend time here before deciding what everyone needs. Whatnot shows, build relationships, collect something. Have conversation that aren't always tied to sales. Learn why people care. Understand how collectors make decisions, then look for the pattern your skills can help solve. You cannot treat people here as a collection of logins on a dashboard. These logins represent collectors standing at tables, negotiating deals, working on collections and trying to make decisions with their money. Josh has gone directly to dealers at the show and asked them why they were not using Card Letter. What did they dislike? What are they missing? What would make the product more useful. Those conversations shaped the product. They also created accountability. When a friend runs a card shop and depends on your product, the standard changes. The product cannot work because the person wants to support you. It needs to work because the person has a business to operate. This is what it means. When I say staying close to the problem, you see the consequences of your decisions. You hear the frustration. You watch how the product fits into a real transaction. You understand that every feature adds something else the team must maintain. That leads to another part of Josh's approach that stood out to me. The Card Ladder team receives requests for business features that might generate more revenue. The opportunity can sound attractive. Add the feature and several shops will sign up. Move in this direction, the product will reach another market. Card Ladder often says no. The team asks whether the feature serves the collector. Would they use it themselves? Would the collectors they know value it. Does it support the reasons why Card Ladder exists? If the answer is no, the revenue does not make it the right decision. That's discipline. Businesses need revenue. They also need an identity. Every revenue opportunity carries a cost. A feature creates maintenance A customer type creates expectations. A new business line takes attention away from the product you already promised to support. Revenue is not good revenue when it moves the company away from its purpose or wears down the people responsible for delivering it. Josh, Chris, Christina, protect the health of the team when they make decisions. If an opportunity adds an hour to someone's workload every day, they take that cost seriously. If one person feels the decision will reduce their happiness, the other two will listen. They understand that the business depends on all three people remaining committed to the work. That might look conservative to someone measuring the company by how fast it expands. I see it as one of the reasons Card Ladder has lasted. The team is building a company they still want to work for. They are protecting the conditions that allow them to keep showing up. That restraint also shapes the brand. At the national, there are companies fighting for everyone's attention. Someone wants to scan your badge. Someone wants an email address. Someone tells you about a product before learning anything about you. Car Ladder takes the other approach. There's a couch. There's hoodies. There's conversations. There's candy, too. If you use the product and need help, the team wants to help. If you do not use it, they want to understand why the interaction does not start with pressure. That does not mean Card Ladder lacks ambition. It means the product carries more of the burden. Make something people need. Make it work. Treat people well. Give trust time to build. This conversation with Josh is about technology, Yu-Gi-Oh product decisions, brand building and working in the hobby. Underneath all of it is a lesson about becoming a builder who lasts. Do not enter this industry because you want something to build. Enter because you care to understand what needs to be built. Don't confuse more features with more value. Don't let access to technology replace time spent with people. Don't chase every source of revenue at the expense of the reason that your company exists. Stay close to the problem. Stay close to the people. Do the work no one sees. Then give the work enough time to matter. Here's my conversation with Josh Johnson, Chief Technology Officer at Card Letter recorded as at the Card Ladder booth at the National. All right. I am here with Josh Johnson, CTO at Card Ladder. We're going to be talking about working in the hobby. You said something last night when we were standing outside the hotel. We were just having a conversation about working for ourselves in this space, a space that we love, and how once you're in it and you're doing it, it's really hard to get out of it and go do something else. You've been Doing this for a while. Building card ladder. You've also worked in corporate America, worked in for tech companies. Where kind of does that spirit of that come from? Like, you've been on both sides. What do you like about kind of doing what you're doing? Yu-Gi-Oh I mean, like you said, it's mostly just the experience of having 10 years in the corporate side of things, working in the, you know, with managers and teams and huge corporations. I work for Amazon, which is about as big as it gets. And so the contrast of that versus me and my friends working on a product together is a huge, huge difference. And it's like I can't go back now. So I, I feel like I don't know your observations, but it feels like there's been this rise of people from outside of sports cards finding their way into sports cards, whether it's building their own businesses or plugging into a bigger business. I think for a long time this hobby was just hobby people. And now like outside skills are being applied to building companies. How do you think that impacts kind of like the next future look in just the hobby industry? Yu-Gi-Oh some of that is some of those people are trying to apply what they know from the outside world into our space. And it's probably a bit of a learning curve coming in because this industry will just, they'll catch on to that very quickly. It's a very honest group of people. We, we know, like when you're coming in, trying to sell us something versus trying to bring some added value. I would say just an observation is you have to be very grounded and you have to be very humble about coming into this space and know that you, you might go through some tough times trying to one-of-one over the average collector versus like, you know, coming in saying, I know how tech works. You guys need to listen to the way I do it, you know what I mean? Because we like purposely come into this space to avoid that tech world to a certain extent. We come here to avoid everything being automated and Yu-Gi-Oh and we come in, it's like, I want to sit down and look at shiny pieces of cardboard. So people coming into this space from the business side, it takes a bit of time to I think, adjust to that. And we're probably going through, we went through some of that pain in the last cycle, and I think there's a lot better adjustment to it this time around. Do you observe kind of what other people are building and other tech in this industry, or are you just heads down working on card ladder, like making it as good as possible? Day in and day out. Like, do you pick up and look at what else is going on Regularly? Mostly the heads down, but we get approached about business ideas and wanting to work with us. So we, we still like get a lot of the conversations around that kind of stuff, which is great. And I think most of it's with good intention. Probably just a lot of ideas that are trying to like force tech onto things where we don't necessarily need them, which is, which is normal. But some of it is like, Yu-Gi-Oh we're adding new stuff. This is great. Let's see how we can incorporate it. I know there's a big push to like put Yu-Gi-Oh into things. Oh, I want to talk, I want to talk about that into every product. Or like make a new product and make an adjacent side product to your product that has Yu-Gi-Oh bolted onto it. There's a lot of that going on and that'll take some time to like, figure out and because like, Yu-Gi-Oh is changing so fast, dude, that like, we don't even know necessarily what that product is going to be or if it's like integrated into the existing products or if it's like a backend service or what it is or maybe like Fanatics takes it up and they just integrate it at the, at the manufacturing and braking level. So we don't really know what it is yet. So I don't know about you, but I have seen or, and received more messages from individuals that are building something and they want feedback on it. Now obviously the connection point is individuals have access to these tools through Yu-Gi-Oh and they're building stuff and trying to get it to market. You are like the type of developer that I am used to working with based on my career in technology. I can just tell by how you think and work. Like, how do you think about that from like, you've built your career on the back of like engineering building product and now individuals with very little to no technical experience are building things and bringing them to market in a very quick manner because Yu-Gi-Oh allows us to do that. Like, is this a, a good thing, a bad thing? Somewhere in between, like, what's your position and what do you see? I'm not sure exactly. It's like the thing I noticed with that, the pattern I noticed is that people like that want to build the product, but they don't even know what it is necessarily. Like their first goal is to build a product as opposed to here's the idea and the need and then I build the product to fix the need, which is very noticeable to me. And those are like, you know, they're like Yu-Gi-Oh vibe coded apps that I can tell right away. So the difference between that individual versus the experienced tech person, I think use. The experienced person uses Yu-Gi-Oh to augment what they're already building and uses it as like a hyperscale, 10x yourself, a hundredx yourself. And the way that you think about engineering and like scaling very quickly versus someone that's like fully dependent on it, those all start to like blend together and look very similar because like they're relying on the Yu-Gi-Oh and the Yu-Gi-Oh systems are all fairly similar. So they kind of like create similar looking apps, similar structure. Whereas an experienced engineer is like I said, very exponentially skilled in that they can guide it very quickly. Like my limiting factor right now as an engineer is I can't tell it to go fast enough because I'm sitting here typing out with my fingers. The Yu-Gi-Oh is so fast that like, it's like waiting for me to type faster. It's like, hurry up dude, I've got the whole app in my brain. Give me the next instruction. So you have built something very, very, it's very needed by the hobby. With Card Ladder you've continually updated and improved it over the years based on share, customer feedback, market demand, all these things. There is this sense that I see that everyone wants to build something that already exists and Card Ladder at some fashion. Like, is it like, how do you, when you see something like that, someone building something that is similar or adjacent to Card Ladder, is that, do you view that as like competitive? Do you view that as like a compliment? Like, how do you view people building stuff that more or less already exists through your work? I can't really control it, so I just don't think about it very much, you know, like, I can't, it doesn't, it one-of-one do me any good to like worry about it and try to keep up with every feature they might add and like, because I think the more that like I tr. We try to build and expand to like match everything else, the more we would suffer on the things we're very good at. And so we just kind of lean into the way it's gone. Improve the things we do have. Make sales history faster, make the camera search faster, make the, you know, sign up experience better and faster and make everything load quicker. Optimize things for the shows. I've spent the last three months just like optimizing for this show, making sure nobody has any problems with the app as opposed to like, let me try to add a Bunch of features that competitors are adding and things like that. You know what I mean? How important is it for like people think about new technology, they think about all the bells and whistles. But like, maybe the most important thing about Card Ladder is the fact that when you're in a show like the national, that it just works. Like, how do you, what are you doing behind the scenes? And you can get as technical or non technical as you want, but like what are you thinking about? What are you doing behind the scenes to make sure that the app just works when people are show. This, I think has kind of been the key to our success and it's that we are in the hobby and we just like, first of all, we want it to work for ourselves first and foremost. I want it to be fast for myself. Every time I use the app and it does anything that's not up to par, I freak out and spend the next six hours on my computer fixing it because it annoys me so much. And then I know everybody else is probably thinking the same thing. The other thing is when I'm at these shows, I'm asking everybody like, what they hate about it, what's bad, what do you need for this to work? And probably like four Nationals ago, I went to like every dealer and said, how do I get you using Card Ladder? Why are you not using it now? What would make you use it? So I'm just sort of like thinking about it in terms of how is the community actually using it and not treating everybody as like some login, you know, I'm not trying to like add X amount of users or you know, numbers on the screen. I'm actually like, these are all real people out here at this show. I need to go talk to every single one of them and figure it out. And you know, working with people like yourself, getting people in the community that we're friends with and like get them excited about it. That's kind of always been our strategy is like, let's get everybody that we're friends with that's excited about it. The dealers, let's get everybody happy, let's get them using it and then it'll kind of like go from there. So you mentioned growth and I don't know if anyone on Card, the Card Letter team has ever really talked about it, but I'm interested about by it, by just observation where you launch this product. You basically introduced it via, you know, you had the crossover early on and you were talking about building this thing and then it shows up and it's Just kind of the latter at first. And then progressively over time there. There's just a user base grows and grows and grows and grows. And then it. Dude, now it seems like I can be anywhere at this show and just looking at someone on a phone and it seems like everyone's on Card Ladder, which is. It's incredible. It moved from just like an idea to a product to now mean. I think it's probably the most used product in this room, which is crazy. Especially like there is competitive products too. But it just seems like over time everyone is kind of lean towards Card Ladder. Like those moments of growth, like, how did those moments of growth happen and were they like big chunks of growth or is it just gradually organic over time? Like, how did those moments take shape? I like to think that it's like the most slow up and right growth that you can imagine. There was never like a big jump or a big spike other than like the industry itself jumping and spiking. So it might have followed some of that just. Just because it just followed it and everybody saw that growth. But other than that, we never wanted to force overgrowth or growing too fast where we Goldin like keep up with it. So we've always tried to be mindful of like, let's not overdo it with, hey, we really need to force this and we need to like push fast. We need to. We've always just been like, nope, keep going the same pace, work with all the same people. Just keep growing it slowly. Not, not like, because if we try to like overgrow it too fast and we just like would burn out, right? We would just like not be able to keep up. So I feel like it's just followed our pace that we're comfortable with and it's just slow. I mean, six years, dude, it's like we're coming up on seven years. If you do something for seven years every day, like, it's gonna be good eventually. Yu-Gi-Oh The consistency thing, I think has been huge for Card Ladder and I think so often people build stuff. This can be from like a collector collecting perspective. Someone collects something for a year and gets bored of it, moves on. Someone builds something or starts a piece of content and it goes for six months and then it stops. But like, I don't know, the real ones for me are always the people that just continue to do it under whatever market conditions. What, under any circumstances. Like, and I feel like across the board, everyone on the Card Ladder team's a pretty consistent person. Do you think that's been kind of part of the secret sauce for card ladder success, dude. That's the secret sauce to life. I don't think that's just. I don't think that's like a business thing. I think that's just everything, you know. Why does not enough people. Not enough people talk about it? I don't know, dude. It's like, you know, I think about it in terms of this for, like, my running, you know, I run every day, and then five years later, I'll be pretty decent at running, hopefully. And it's like, now if I want to take up another sport or something, it's like, the only way to do it is if I have to do it every day and I've got to wake up and I've got to do it. And, you know, people maybe just like, don't want to hear that because it's like, oh, you know, I don't want. I don't want to, like, wait seven years. I don't want to wait 10 years for something. But it's like, well, you know, you got to start today if you want to actually get there. You have to. You just have to do it consistently. This is for everything, dude. It's for. It's for taking things out of your life. Like, let's say you have like an addiction or you're trying to lose weight or whatever it is, dude, you're not going to do it tomorrow. You have to start it today, and you got to just keep doing it. So I think it's just like a. This applies to everything. So you mentioned the running thing. And this is year two where you are organizing a group of people to go on a run. I was a part of it last year. And I look back, when I think about last year, that is a moment I remember. And I remember it because it's an interesting setting, which I never knew these trails existed behind the convention center. But you're running, and it's. No, it's not a competition. Everyone's just running because we like running. But you're sitting there running with people from Instagram and you're having conversations with cars. I remember talking about deals with Coleman, like, running these trails. And it's like, Yu-Gi-Oh what a unique experience. Like, you obviously spearheaded it year one year, spearheading it year two. Like, how important do you think those Topps of moments are to kind of connect with other people in a setting like that? It's funny that you mentioned all the, like, happy moments and you don't remember the fact that you will Woke up at 5:30. And you suffered and you went over there and we ran however far we did and we were just like, miles. Yu-Gi-Oh we ran 10 miles. We were suffering, dude. To a certain extent, you know, we're not like actually suffering, but it's like, it's painful. And you remember the part that's like, dude, we were like on a high, running together, chatting about who knows what cards and how crazy we are to be up at 6am and everyone else is sleeping and we're out here. Those are the kind of things that are hard at first. You know, in the moment it feels like it's going to suck. But then you're out there and then you, a year later you're like, that was the best part of the show for some people maybe. And. Or. Or like, you remember the part that was enjoyable about it. So I think that that kind of is like the underpinning of like. What I'm trying to say with the consistency too is like, dude, if you do the sucky part up front, you'll get rewarded after when you have all the dopamine of running with your friends. You know, this is a small example, but hopefully this year is as good. Hopefully everyone shows up and has a good time and it'll be a good time. So I don't know, like, I view you as an individual, like a tech leader of a successful business in the hobby, like crossing all of these, checking all these boxes, but there's not a lot of other people. There's people who do tech, but maybe people who aren't as like, public as you because, like, you get on the crossover. We do a podcast once a month. So, like, you're a collector, but you're also a developer. There's a lot of developers that also our collectors. There's probably a lot of developers who are looking to build something like you built card ladder or plug into a business. Like, and they're working for some corporate America company right now. Like, you've been through it. Like, what would you. What's your advice to those individuals who might want to jump outside of Corporate America and do kind of what you did? Hopefully you have, you have a nice footing in the hobby first. I think I do feel like you need to kind of like be a part of the hobby without trying to build the app for. For some amount of time. Whether that's like, you know, you start going to shows, you integrate into the space with a social media account or you make friends in a space, you build a. Your own little sub community, you have your Own collecting friends, you have your chats, and then from there you sort of, like, organically can figure out what's the need you're trying to fill versus, like, I have to build something because I'm an engineer and I like cards. I just have to build something. I don't even know what it is. I'll just start building it. I would say, like, spend some time in the community and figure out what the need is first. So how did, like, in your example, and obviously, like, you've made this connection with Chris and Christine and you built this partnership, but, like, what was that moment for you where I can't even imagine a world right now, like, especially at a show at like this, with this scale, with not having access to a light card ladder. So obviously, like, there it fills a massive need that maybe we didn't even know we had. Right. Like, when was that moment for you where you realized, like, Yu-Gi-Oh Yu-Gi-Oh I can actually apply my skill set and what. What I'm doing to solve a real problem in the industry right now? Yu-Gi-Oh see, I never even thought about it like that. The way you framed it, it was more like Chris was working on something and I was like, I can help you automate that. And then it was like, well, what we just automated with tech is kind of cool. What if we added this and it was really for ourselves? It was like, we didn't want to track auctions that were going. We didn't know what. We didn't know, like, what was a fair value. And so we were like, let's just, like, track it on graphs and let's see what it looks like. So we wanted to, like, we could anecdotally know what was happening with the. With the market, but I just wanted to see it on a screen. And so it's like, well, let's build it and let's look at it on a screen and see all the numbers plotted. And then after like, a few months of having it launch with just like, the graphs and the ladder and stuff, then it was like, what if people just want to see all the sales, you know? Or like, I just want to see the sales. Let's just add that, see what happens. It wasn't like the industry needs this necessarily. It was more like a slow, organic, like, hey, let me just slowly add this one thing next. The next. I know, like, there's this common saying in business to never, like, really get high on your own supply. So, like, I. I don't know, like, do you guys realize how valuable what you've Built is and how important. I'll give you an example. So I went into IndyCard exchange last week. I sold them some cards. I could have consigned them or whatever, but they were Colts cards. And I figured, like, take them to a local shop. And when I walked up to the buying station, I said, what's up to Shane, their head buyer, and talking through it, and he's getting ready to, like, do the values. He's like, so do you go by card ladder value? And I'm like, Yu-Gi-Oh Like, look at card ladder value. Yu-Gi-Oh And so I. That, like, caught my attention. It's like, Yu-Gi-Oh this is one hobby shop in one city in America during one transaction. Like, I mean, this is global, like, globally. Card ladders being used. Like. Like, you built this with members of your team. Like, how do you think about that, those moments? Well, I've been friends with Andy for years, and I remember when we were first launching it, it was like, andy, how do I get your shop using this app? Like, what do you need? What can we set you up with? And he. I think, like, his whole shop uses it. Yu-Gi-Oh mostly partly because, you know, we're friends and he wants to support me. But then, like, it got to the point where I have to make this good because he needs to run a real business. It can't just be like, he's my friend supporting me. You know, like, it has to be really good. But to me, like, you know, again, like, I don't really think about it in terms of the business success and, like, the number of users we have and the fact that people are using it, which is great. You know, I obviously love hearing that, but it's more like two of my friends in the space, like, get value out of it, and then they're happy or they make a deal. That makes sense. I'm more. I get more excited about, like, my friends in the space using it. You know what I mean? Like, I just. I like that part of it. I like. I like knowing that people like it and they. They get enjoyment out of it. That's kind of like, you know, like, the legacy I would like to have from it. Not the money or the number of users or the scale or the fact that, like, you know, people at the show use it. It's all great. It's fun. But I'm more excited to hear stories like that where it's like, dude, me and Andy were, like, using the app, and it works. Like, I like that. Is there a difference in how you think about the build of the product? From a collector or consumer perspective versus the business owner builder perspective. Like, I want you to talk about that because I. The way I'm thinking about my content right now is there is a consumer or a collector side and there's a B2B and business side. And I'm. There's like a line and you can listen to both and enjoy both. But like I am, there's a delineation between those two just in terms of content, I would imagine, and building a product. Like, there's similar thoughts like, how, how are you thinking about that? We have to fight the urge every single day to not add something into the app that we don't feel is core to a collector. And what I mean by that is we'll have people on the business side say to us, if your app just did X, everyone would use it and it would scale to the moon. But the three of us would say back, like, well, that doesn't really apply to the collector. Or like, we would never use that ourselves. Or like our friends that we chat with, that feature just doesn't apply. And it's just too focused on B2B. Or it's too focused on something that's a little bit outside our comfort zone. So we're like fighting the urge to take the risk of, you know, jumping out and like trying to over expand and get into lanes we just don't want to get into because it's, it's enticing sometimes. Like, hey, if you just do this, we would jump on and we would sign up our four shops and we'd have this thing running on your system. It's like, Yu-Gi-Oh that'd be great. But it just like, it doesn't get us excited. It's not like a collector thing that we're excited about. It doesn't, like, apply to the individual at the show trying to improve their collection. It's just like outside of our core value. Then we're just like not excited about it, so we're just not going to do it. How do you all make those decisions as a team? Like, especially when there's revenue on the other side, like, hey, if we do X, we can, you know, bring in this much revenue, which then might lead to this much because another shop or another person would do it. Like, how do you, like, come to those conclusions when, like, is it just via Slack? Is it like there's team meetings? Is it one person makes a decision, like, how do you do that? Well, really, everything is run by the three of us, Christina, Chris and I. And so the three of us are so, like, lockstep with all these decisions and, like, how we feel about as a team. And, like, if one of the three of us loses 1% happiness with a decision, then the other two are just gonna say, well, we're not doing it, you know? Or, like, one of us is, like, if we do this, it's gonna add an hour extra to my plate every day. Well, I guess we're not doing it. And it's just like a very. It's like a very strong threesome of maximizing everybody together. You know, it's like a completely genuine, unselfish team. Or it's like, we need all three of us to be happy and successful, or we're not doing it. Usually I don't ask a technology guy about brand building and brand, but it's undeniable. Like, I've been here for one, not even two days yet. And it's the same thing this last year. Like, people continue to come up. They want to be a part of these conversations. They want to be a part of Card Ladder. I think, like, Card Ladder is built something very special from a brand perspective. Not only do people use your product, but everyone enjoys the Card Ladder brand. They enjoy the people. Like, how special do you think that is? How important do you think that is? It's awesome. It's fun. I'm not sure, like, what causes that or, like, it's almost like, because we don't want to be out in the public too much. That's what kind of draws people in. Because the hobby itself is like a very. It's like a very individual sport. It's like a humble individual sport where people are trying to build their collections. So a lot of people just, like, don't want to see, like, the flash and the marketing and the come do this thing, and they kind of just maybe more vibe with the, hey, we're just here to hang out and have fun. And here's a hoodie, and we're not pressuring you to buy anything. Or, like, there's literally we haven't said to one person, like, oh, are you signed up for, you know, that kind of stuff. It's more like, if you have it, great. Do you need to help with it? Do we need to make it better if you're not using it and you want to tell me why I'm here to listen. So I think it's more of like a we let everybody else lead, and we're just kind of here to hang out. Here's a couch. Here's a hoodie. So I'm standing in line day one, trying to get in, and I hear someone behind me. And they're very, very excited. They're very loud, and they've got little things with their company. And I just keep hearing them say, like, are you into repacks? Are you into repacks? And I'm like, oh, man, don't tap my shoulder. And the guy taps my shoulder, he's like, are you in a repack? Yu-Gi-Oh I mean, it was just trying to get me into their funnel. So I get the emails, repack products and whatever. And it's like, you know, we've been in the space of building products for these tech companies where they help businesses, like, get people in and market it to. And I'm just like, man, I'm going to the national. Like, I just want to have conversations. I want to explore for myself. Like, I don't want to tell you what to do. But that strategy is probably not the best strategy. I think that's opposite of the way, like, hard ladders organized. And I think, like, a lot of companies in the space, like, force, try to force their way in through, like, being loud, being on camera saying their things about a lot of hyperbole. Like, well, you and I don't want to be bothered, so why would I bother other people? That doesn't make any sense. I don't want to. If I don't want to be bothered and I'm not gonna go yell at somebody. Yu-Gi-Oh So I don't know. I just. I find that, like, it's hard, but there's a certain level when you're building a business here, it's like coming from a place of abundance and just saying, if I build something that people need by treat people well, like, eventually the things we want to have happen will happen. I think this isn't a political thing, but Elon Musk always talks about this. He always talks about, like, just build the product really good and people will just have to use it. You don't have to, like, make them use it. You know what I mean? The product itself is the thing that will speak for you. You don't have to tell people about it. It will just be good. And that kind of reminded me of that. So as we're closing this out, like, what do you expect in this next wave? Like this. You track it. The industry, obviously you're. The. The industry number is going to come out soon. Of that everyone looks at. At the beginning of every month. I think it's two days from now keeps going up. Yu-Gi-Oh the first of the month. We released first of the month, which is coming up. This will be out by the time that probably comes out. Excellent. Like, what's your expectation? Like, do you think that the excitement for this space continues? That. Do you think new ideas continue? Do you think people wanting to work in the hobby continues? Like, what are your expectations for the next 12 to 24 months? Oh, man, I'm terrible at predicting the future. You are. You always say this every time I give you. Because I'm more of a pessimist. And I'm like, this is too much, you know? Yu-Gi-Oh And it's like, oh, but you must be so excited, because the business is growing. It's like, oh, man, I'm nervous about all this. This is too much, too fast. You guys are way too excited. There's too many Pokemon cards. Because I get asked about Pokemon a lot, you know, and it's like every time I say there's too much, the price goes up more. So I'm an idiot. What do I know? You know? So I just kind of say, like, we're just going to keep doing the same thing we always do, whether it goes up, whether it goes down. If it goes down, I'll buy more cards. If it goes up, I might sell more. People are nervous of me selling a card on a story or whatever. And it's like, well, the prices are high and I'll buy stuff that's cheaper instead. You know, I'll switch to football or. So I'm always gonna just do what I do and just keep collecting, just keep adding to my PC, just keep making card ladder the best I can. And there's really no. I can't control anything else. And if it crashes tomorrow, I'm gonna be here doing the exact same thing. Our booth will be here next year. We'll be giving out hoodies. No matter what the market goes to 10% of today, we'll be here because. Because that just means we'll be buying more cards. Like, it's a one-of-one one-of-one one-of-one I don't even care what happens, how high it goes, I'll still be here. You know, it's like, you gotta take the wins from any situation. So I just don't, you know, I don't know. Because of that, I don't want to predict because I'm. I'm gonna just focus on trying to be happy in any of the scenarios, you know, Sometimes the best thing to do is just keep your head down and keep doing what you're doing. I need to start stretching for that run tomorrow. Josh, always good catching up, man. 6:30am 6:30am we'll make it happen. Hopefully it doesn't rain on us. It's supposed to rain after. We'll be fine. Yes. Appreciate it, man. Thanks man. I hope you enjoyed that conversation that I had with Josh. It was always fun catching up with builders in the hobby. That's what we like to do here on Hobby Jobs. We'll bring more content around, different topics around the sports card industry and the building of the sports card industry in the coming weeks. Make sure you sign up for the newsletter. It's free. It's in the show notes. There is a lot happening in the space. The infrastructure is forming, new jobs are popping up, individuals are coming in applying their professional skill set across the industry and I just find this all fascinating. The cards are cool. That's what we're here for. But there is a storyline behind the cards, behind the businesses, and that is with the people who are going all in on the sports car industry and going all in to create better experiences for all of us. There will be more hobby jobs on the other side. Looking forward to sharing more stories in the coming weeks. Take care. Happy building. Talk to you soon. Sam.