Choosing The Winners For Mantel's The Hobby Awards Plus Calling Out Notable Absent Nominations; Discussing The Vibes At Sport Card Expo; Plus Ohtani Pick 1

You're listening to Cards to the Moon, a podcast about trading cards from both a collector and investor perspective. We hope you'll stick around for the ride as we take a deep dive into the state of the hobby, share some hot takes, hopefully some useful advice and fun stories along the way. Hey guys, welcome back to Cards to the Moon. This is episode 328, and my name is Clark from 5cardguys.com. You can also find me at 5cardguys on Instagram, Facebook, and on YouTube. Co-hosting with me, as usual, is Hyung, who is at ChoHyung on Instagram and YouTube as well. And John, you can find him at TradeU at Recess on IG. All right, off the top today, I just want to really talk about our recent visit to the Sport Card Expo. It's an annual fall thing for us, and the annual spring thing is twice a year, but we just came back from the November show, and we all saw each other. We went on the same day, so that was great to go on the same day with Will and Roy, our other co-hosts that come on once a month. So yeah, general question for you guys, what would you say the vibes were like at Sport Card Expo this year, and did you buy or sell anything while you were there? I thought the Expo was great. It was bumping. There was a lot of people, which I expected, but I think once you got into the parking lot, it was like, oh man, this thing is rammed. But it's good that they – because the weather was obviously pretty crappy, so it's good that there was no waiting period, which I appreciate. I thought there was going to be kind of like, oh, we're going to be standing outside a bit, but there was nothing like that, which everybody could appreciate. I thought that the show – it was a very successful show in general, I think just from an event standpoint. If you haven't been to an event, you could tell that the hobby is super alive. A lot of new collectors, a lot of old collectors. You see still the same booths up and running, so that side of the hobby is still bumping. But overall, I had a blast. I went there two days. I got to get a couple items certified by PSA, which I wanted to get authenticated, but I'd never wanted to ship it out. So it was a great time for me to drop the items off on the first day and then pick them up at the end of the show. So that kind of, I guess, was the basis of why I personally went and my goals. Yeah, I ended up just – I didn't do many deals because I was looking for baseball. There are some cool stuff out there, but I didn't find anything in particular that I was hunting for. But I did – I showed you guys, but I was with Will at Dolly's and we were just talking. Before I left, I just picked up a box of 2022 Top's Finest because I think they're underrated. Just the rookie class in general, you got Julio, Bobby Witt, even Cal Rowley now, and then your O'Neal Cruises and stuff like that. So there's a lot of hits I think still live and I think Finest in general is underrated in 2022. So for me, I thought the ROI was good. Why not win in Rome, get a box and rip? I told Will, I was like, you know what, Cal Rowley hype is real and there's a big chase and nobody's really looking at product you could still rip. Sure enough, I pulled the Cal Rowley Rookie Auto, which I was pumped. So yeah, it was a good overall experience for me. I was very pleased. Nice. And you said you authenticated a couple of items. You want to share what those were? Yeah. So I have a couple of memorabilia items that I kind of had over the past few years. One of them was a 3000 hit ball. So not obviously every person that's on the 3000 hit, but there's about 11 different signatures, Jeter being the highlight. And then you got guys like Wade Boggs, Ricky Henderson, Eddie Murray, Paul Molitor. So it's a really cool piece for me. And I always wanted to get it authenticated because I think the Jeter was the only autograph that was authenticated. And to make it legit, especially in this market, I feel like memorabilia is picking up where it follows the same suit. People want PSA certification or the DNA certification or even Beckett or the authentication process. So I dropped off a couple of baseballs that and then I had a St. Louis Cardinals Hall of Fame baseball. So you got Stan Musial, Ozzie Smith, Lou Brock, Bob Gibson. So pretty, pretty cool pieces for me, just more of a PC item. So just got that authenticated and yeah, that was kind of the plan and yeah, it was great. That's pretty cool. Yeah. That's awesome. How about you, Johnny? Oh man, I had a great time. I think this was the first time I went multiple days. So I went on Thursday evening when it started and then I was able to go Friday. So it was great. I mean, I think it was a lot bigger, like it's way bigger than I experienced before in terms of attendance. Because I actually missed the last two expos. So I haven't gone in about, I guess, a year and a half. But yeah, I mean, we joked around, but on Saturday, I swear I parked like halfway across the world. The parking lot was insane. Yeah. What's going on here? And you get in there and it's like you're like at Costco on a Saturday, just shoulder to shoulder with people. So I mean, the hobby is alive in Toronto, that's for sure. And you know, it was great to see was, yeah, there are a lot of the older vendors, but I think I would imagine, I don't, maybe Roy and DC can answer this, but I'd imagine it's a lot more expensive to set up a booth, you know, as the years have been going on. So I did notice that, you know, a lot of the older booths that were selling, you know, small rink eating singles, obviously they weren't really around anymore. And I remember in past years, there was a lot of smaller collectors that kind of set up little booths, obviously they weren't really around. So the booths are really, I mean, the booths are really big. Like most people that were set up, even if they were just collectors and not actual dealers, they all have really, really big cards. So it did feel like a much bigger show. It did feel like, you know, when you're looking at more modern cards, there were a lot more booths where you can see modern and things of interest, if you're into the more modern side. And obviously on the hockey side and vintage, there was a lot of vintage as well. So yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's a good observation. And this year I was targeting hockey. You guys know, I've been trying to start this little limited logos collection, Upper Deck Limited Logos. So the hunt for limited logos, I thought there would have been a lot more there. It was a lot harder to find what I was looking for. And I actually didn't find exactly what I was looking for, but a couple of things caught my eye. So that hunt was really fun. Well, yeah, you showed us a couple. Which ones did you get again? Yeah, I got from Total Sports booth, I got the Zetterberg and a Jonathan Taves, Team Canada, which was nice. Yeah. Yeah. Well, I was saying to you at the show, it's kind of like the Topps Dynasty, you know, equivalent from the baseball perspective, the nice patch autograph, on-card autograph cards. Yeah. That's pretty sweet. And kind of like to your point earlier, the different booths having just generally speaking more like just big cards, you know, not the rinky-dink cards, because, you know, the hobby is growing and maybe some of the smaller collectors are being priced out. But remember that booth that you showed us that had zero decorations, it was pretty nondescript. And then you look in the case and you see like these five, five-figure cards, it's like, oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. This Mickey Mantle came out of nowhere. I think, I think, I can't remember his name. It was just some dude with his own cards and he had like Jordan LeBron dual autos, he had like Kobe Topps chrome refractor and a PSA 10, like just monstrous hundreds of thousands of dollars in cards, maybe even millions. And he's just, he's just sitting there by himself, nothing except him and like two cases of like the best monster cards you could find at the show. It's pretty wild. No, I was saying, I think you have to go that route now. Like, I think people are realizing you can't be pushing, you know, Topps chrome base, Luis Roberts at the show, like you're going to have to be able to, because when I was talking to DC, he had a booth at Dolly's, that Dolly's booth was bumping, like, and they, like if you look at the vendors beside, they were getting a lot more traction. But DC was like he, I mean, the cards he pushes is, you know, thousands and thousands of dollars. And that justifies, you know, being around. If you do that with, you know, $30 cards, you know, it's not going to be worth, I guess, the time. And I think, I mean, we realized this back in the day when, you know, we're all purchasing the lower end slabs and we're like, okay, I don't think this is sustainable because you're pushing all these low end cards for very minimal profit. So you got to increase, kind of add a zero or two, you know, in that to justify it, right? So I feel like in general, people finally are getting that. So therefore, you know, they're going to show off the big boys and one transaction could totally pay off the booth justification, right? So I feel like that's the only way to do it nowadays if you want to participate at like that level. Yeah. I like big card shows like the Expo, the biggest in Canada, for sure. And you know, like on the flip side, I think you're kind of alluding to it. If you, there are still room for smaller collectors, but because there are a lot of other shows that go on throughout the year now, like smaller shows, like once a month, twice a month even. HobbyCon, we got the founder of HobbyCon on the pod and it's a perfect venue for those kind of collectors. Right. And it makes so much sense like what, you know, CSC would do there too. So it's like using, utilizing your group to be able to set up shop and then kind of divvy it up that way. So costs aren't as big. So it was pretty cool because when you go into the booth, you have CSC in the corner, but it's kind of like, I call it like the, I guess, Pokemon land. It's like that little corner of just like, hey, if you want to go, there's a bunch of good slabs there, for instance, right? Because it's a community. Yeah. You see what I'm saying? For sure. For sure. And our buddy Roy was right in the center of Pokemon land, right? So it was really warm in that corner though. It was pretty, I don't know. It was cooking. It was cooking. I don't know if I was like- It was right beside the fried chicken and fries. That's why. I think it was more body heat. There's so many people there. Pokemon market's still hot and, you know, we'll have Roy and Will back on the pod obviously to talk about their experience. But speaking of DC, I asked him to come back on the pod. So he'll be on next week's episode and he could tell us his experience as a dealer at the show and yeah, it's been a while since we connected with him. So it'll be good to see what his perspective is on the hobby even over the past several months because it's been really cooking, right? So that's great. And for me, you know, speaking of people we saw there, I think that was my highlight. Like I only bought, you know, Topps basketball blaster, which I ripped just for fun. I got a 1B base, which is a dollar because they're printing those to the moon right now. But it's still a fun rip and I have a hobby box to rip still, so I might do that later today to let you guys know what I hit. But yeah, no, just running into a lot of guys, DC, the whole Cards to the Moon crew, that was awesome. Rob Wong, remember, he was a journalist. He actually covered the World Series, so he was at each of the home games when our Jays were in the World Series. And so I asked him to come back on the pod as well. And kind of a teaser, like one of the things I want to explore is when your teams go on these amazing World Series runs, especially in Toronto, we felt it and across Canada, people are looking for Jays cards. Like I overheard many vendors that had Jays cards, like people are paying full price right now for you, Savage. So I don't have to negotiate these cards, yeah. So it's kind of cool to see all these Jays cards flying off now the shelves, so to speak. For sure. No, speaking of that, I had an Ernie Clement Real One Auto that I even forgot. I totally forgot because you don't realize it at the time. And then you pull it out and people want this card now, which is pretty ironic and funny. But no, I love it. I love it because collectability on Jays memorabilia and sports cards, they received a huge uptick as well. Just the demand for it, people looking for, even Addison Barger, it was crazy at how much Addison... I didn't even know his cards existed, to be honest, because it would never cross my mind to get an Addison Barger rookie card. But then I've seen some heat on Addison Barger, so I was impressed. I like it. Yeah. You know how you know there's heat on Addison Barger? People are buying their Panini Prism unlicensed Addison Barger cards, okay? That's crazy. That's wild. It's Will. I bet you it's Will. Yeah. Will's one of them, for sure. Come on. Yeah. No. Even my buddies, I have a couple of friends, our eight-year-old sons have played baseball together, so we know each other that way. And they're like, yeah, hey, I heard you're going to the expo. My son wants an Addison Barger or wants Ernie Clement cards. Crazy. Yeah. Yeah. And they're... These kids, even my own kid, they're bandwagons, right? Jumpers, because the World Series, and then they stayed up late for game six and seven, but it's amazing how it's connected. Baseball success with baseball card collectability. It's amazing. For sure, they're future fans of baseball and future card collectors. So everything you're buying, Clark, you know where it's going. That's right. All right, go ahead. Before we go on, there was another booth I mentioned to you guys, the golf booth. Oh, I saw that. So apparently the guy, he recognized my face. I feel so bad because I, you know, he's like, yeah, I've seen you at DC. You're friends with DC. I was like, oh, no way. So I think he knows DC really well, but Will Choi, the show opened at 4 p.m. on Thursday, and he was there at three because he got early access through Roy, and he texted me. He goes, hey, check this out. There's a guy set up with only golf cards. It just says like a sign on the back, golf cards. And he goes, this guy's got crazy Tiger Woods autos. Oh, it's Mike. He must have had 30, maybe upwards of 50 Tiger Woods autos, and he also had a bunch of like five or six Michael Jordan golf autos. And you know, Rory Mack wrote just a huge spread of awesome golf cards. And by the time I got there, I went there on Thursday. He had already sold 30. By Friday, now we're in, you know, Thursdays, it was only open between four to 8 p.m., and by Friday, I got there at noon, and I remember thinking I wanted to make a play on one of the Tiger Woods cards, and I got there and I saw one. Well, the ones that I wanted sold out, so then I started to FOMO. I'm like, maybe I'll make a move on this one. Went to go find Will to talk to him to discuss whether I should make a move on it. Came back, gone. And his display case was completely, empty, like I think he ended up with like a couple of Tiger Woods autos. He must have sold almost all of them. So it's pretty crazy. Even something niche like golf, and obviously it's powered by Tiger Woods, but a couple of things. Golf, he did, that guy must have cleaned house. He probably went home with a suitcase full of cash. And Tiger Woods, I mean, it should also be noted of all the goats that are really moving right now, Tiger Woods is not really mentioned because he's not playing, he's injured, all of that stuff, but clearly a lot of people are making some heavy moves on Tiger Woods. So something to watch out for. Great point. Not to get into open up a can of worms, but like, that just makes me think it's like, it makes sense in terms of Tiger Woods because he's like the goat and what you've seen it across sports, you see, you know, goat autos exploding. So this is a food for thought, maybe for another episode, what happens, and I think we discussed this years ago, but what happens if institution money is coming in and stuff like all those things end up just being swiped away? You know, because if they're seeing this whole industry as a market, a legit marketplace, and it takes, and it doesn't take much to move our market. Like, you know, if you look at Tiger Woods Auto, somebody with a million dollars, let's just say, can totally move that market. You see what I'm saying? So to me, it's like, when that happens, what happens to the really rare card prices? And that's why, do you see that already from the, you know, million dollar plus sales that we've seen, and that's what essentially it is. It's just new money just constantly driving this market to a place where we're like, oh, the card market is exploding, but really is it institutional money or is it participation money as a combination of both? I'm interested in that discussion for a future episode because I know right now is not the time, but John, you brought that up, so it reminded me of that. You know what, yeah, let's save it for a future episode because I got so many thoughts based on what you kind of introduced right now, and we actually talked about it a little bit with Will and Roy when Jason Mishara, the Upper Deck president, wrote this blog post about how is it really only the wealthy collectors driving the market right now? So it's kind of related to that, but I think we can definitely dig deeper because if that's the trend, and if it continues, well, Jason Mishara's point was that it can't, he seems to be arguing that it can't sustain itself because those speculators, if they find something else that's shiny and new, they'll go there, and then everything else, like the sports car market, might see a collapse or at least a huge correction. But if we think that it's actually just the beginning of other rich people or institutions coming in to see sports cards as a legit asset class, then what, right? So I think that's a worthy discussion to have. I have my own thoughts, but we'll save it because it might be a two-hour episode. Okay, let's move on to hobby headlines. All right, so if you haven't heard of Mantle, it's a website for hobbyists where they can share and post their collections, engage in different hobby issues, and it's kind of a blog site slash forum. That's how I would explain what Mantle is. And I think one of the founders is the Reddit founder, Alexis Ohanian, so he's an investor in Mantle. I personally use it periodically. I sometimes forget that I have an account with them, but I know for some people, they're actively on it. They bill it as a positive space for the hobby. So it's not, if you want a negative space, go to Facebook or go to Blowout Forums, you can get that perspective there. But Mantle is trying to bill itself as a positive space for the hobby. Anyway, Mantle, they also launched its inaugural Hobby Awards, and you can currently vote online as of this recording. And I'll include the link below in the show notes. So for this episode, what I thought we could do is just go through some of the categories and then let's each vote on who we would vote for. All right, so there's a bunch of categories. We won't go through each one of them. We won't go through every one of them, but there are a few that I thought would be interesting to see who we would vote for. All right, let's start with Best Auction House. And there are eight nominees. Alt, Fanatics Collect, Golden, Heritage Auctions, Pristine Auction, The Realist, REA, and Sotheby's. Sotheby's. Man, these are difficult because if you don't have personal experience, I feel like you're not giving them a fair shake. So, but, and with that said, that's just a disclaimer. Yeah, good disclaimer. So anybody listening to this that's representing one of those brands and we don't pick them, it might be because we're ignorant and we haven't either heard of you or, I'm pretty sure we've heard of you, but we just haven't had that experience, right? But for me, I had a really bad experience with Golden and a good experience with Golden. So just based on personal experience, I'd be open to using them again. So they're the only ones I really used. But I feel like from a brand perspective, they separated themselves from everybody on the list in terms of what they're doing from a marketing standpoint. Obviously, every company has their ups and downs with the logistics and the way they operate. But I gotta say from a brand perspective, I think Golden has done a phenomenal job just putting themselves out here and give credit kudos to Ken Golden for being that face. But I think, I'm gonna say Golden, to me, they're still the number one kind of auction house in my eyes in terms of if I'm gonna send something, it just comes up to mind first, right? And places like Heritage Auction does kind of pop up, but I would say from a branding perspective, that's what really captures me is who is the first. So I'm gonna say Golden wins this one. How about you, John? I'm not too sure. Again, I think most of this list, we don't participate, so it's hard for us to really have opinion. I mean, I haven't even, to be honest, I haven't even used Fanatics Collect yet. So I can't say if it's good or it's bad. So I think, I mean, my vote would also, I guess, go to Golden, because, actually, I don't know. Because I think Golden also had its moment, like it was in the spotlight a couple of years ago and they were kind of featured on the Netflix. So it had its moment, but I think a lot of other groups have kind of caught up, maybe offering better percentages or whatever. There's a reason why others caught up. So, I don't know. I think I don't have an opinion. It's tough, it's tough. It is tough, it is tough. Because there's another category, and I was thinking like, shouldn't eBay be on this? But there is another category that's Best Marketplace. So they're making a distinction between Marketplace and Auction House. But the thing is, under Best Marketplace, you could also find Fanatics Collect. So I think this is why there might be some confusion. And for John, he's gonna spoil his ballot by not voting. So that's fine, right, for this Best Auction House. But I think from a brand perspective, I'm gonna go with Golden as well. But yeah, when I go through, maybe this is because it's the inaugural Hobby Awards by Mantle. I don't know if they can consolidate some of these things. So I'm not gonna ask you to vote for Best Marketplace, but I'll tell you what the nominees are. Alt is again in it. Fanatics Collect, again. eBay's in this one. And then you have nominees like ComSea, Collects, CallX, MyCardPost, we had his founder on this podcast before, and TCGPlayer. So I think a lot of it depends on what you collect as well, right? If you're a Pokemon collector, you might just automatically vote TCGPlayer or eBay, because that's what you're familiar with. And even with Auction House, Golden is more modern cards and sells a mix of modern and vintage. And that's the cards we like to look at. Where Heritage Auction, high end vintage, if that's what you're collecting, you might have a vote for Heritage. So that's how you might vote. And I see it differently. I could see why, because I think auction houses are totally different. Like I wouldn't categorize eBay as same as Golden, because they're two totally different brands that kind of specialize in different niches. And I think eBay does run auctions, but I wouldn't call them an auction house where I value eBay because of the marketplace, because the reach it has, where I could list my own item. I could be able to navigate through myself. I don't have to get a third party to kind of sell my product. And I think that's where, for me in terms of marketplace, eBay is still number one. Like it's weird. Anytime I look for cards, that's the standard. And you can say whatever you want, but I think what these bigger brands like Golden and eBay does so well is they brand themselves so well that that's the top of mind. And then included in that, it must have usability, the ease of usability. So whether it's eBay app, like I know I'm a huge user of the eBay app, just searching comps. I still do it the old way. I don't use a different app where I could just scan it. I'm still going manual eBay, sold, completed items, using 130 point. Like for me, eBay is still kind of like the winner when it comes to marketplace because that's the one I use. I think they bring so much value and ease in terms of what I need. So I'm gonna go with eBay on the marketplace. I think, yeah, I'm eBay all the way too for all those reasons. And I think it might be a clean sweep, but yeah, I just wanted to make that distinction. It might be harder for others to figure it out, but I like how you explained how you see auction houses versus marketplace. So that's a good one. I wanna go to the next one, best collectible show. And obviously this is something that might, if you haven't gone to any of these shows, it might be hard for you to vote on, but from what you've seen online, if you haven't, or what you've heard in terms of testimonials from others who have gone to these shows, I'm curious to see what you say. So the nominees are Dallas Card Show, Fanatics Fest, New York City, The National, Sport Card Expos in this one, and West Coast Card Show, formerly known as the Burbank Show. Yeah, this one again is a little tough just because you gotta have experience. And I don't wanna, like I haven't been to the Dallas Card Show, National or West Coast Card Show. So it's hard to kind of put a label, but I would say based on my attendance at Fanatics Fest and Sport Card Expo, I would look forward to the other three I haven't gone to. And I'm gonna go with that one of those because I feel like catering to my likes in the hobby, I'm a big baseball guy. And for me, I don't get that at Sport Card Expo. I don't get that at Fanatics Fest. I could see myself getting that at The National. I could see myself getting that at the West Coast Card Show, but maybe not as much. So I would say for me, the Dallas Card Show or The National might make most sense in terms of nomination, even though I haven't been to either. But I'm still gonna go with The National just because like I said, the branding does count. If there's one event that I had to choose, it would be The National, but for the reason that it would cater to my baseball liking. So very, very biased on my behalf, but yeah, that's where I'm at. That's okay. Yeah. I'm not even more of a bias. It's actually really cool to see the Sport Card Expo on this list. I've only been to the one show. I've only been to Sport Card Expo, so I have to pick it. But I will say, obviously I'd love to go to The National. I probably, if you were to ask me of these, you get to pick one. I probably want to go to The National first and foremost in terms of my next new experience over Fanatics Fest. I mean, based on what I see on social media, I've heard amazing things about the Dallas Card Show. Some may even say that's the best of the group. So I wouldn't actually be surprised ultimately if the winner here. here ends up being something like Dallas card show, I wouldn't really surprise me, but yeah, I would obviously pick mine based on biased, but yeah, yeah, that's a great point about Dallas card show like a show that's more regional getting this kind of notoriety means says something right and that people will fly out to go to a Dallas card show says something so I think it's well deserved in terms of a nomination, but I'm going to go with the national I've been to national I've been to FedEx fest and I've been to sport card Expo. So those are my three experiences. But yeah, the national is just, it kind of lives up to its billing just being the large country, you know, you hear it all the time. And but it's cliche kind of but when you're there, you realize that that the extent of how big it is and just the different offerings and yeah, baseball is predominant. So I'm biased in that sense, too. I'm looking for baseball cards. So the national gets my vote. Although, you know, if I'm going to take the hometown by sport card expose a close second, and fanatics fest, you know, the argument against it, it's not 100% a collectible show. It's it's sports geared towards sports fans as well. So that's probably one knock on it. But even that it's a great experience, right? So, so well deserved nominations. Alright, I like this one because it's it's a little different, but the category is best sports card product. All right. So the nominees are the 2024 tops Chrome update, which introduced the MLB debut patch. Okay. The upper deck, the cup, which has the super high end rookie patch autos for for hockey card collectors. You got your NFL national treasures. Again, the super high end rookie patch autos for football card collectors. Rookie WNBA rookie royalty introduced this year to Caitlin Clark and Angel Reese cards in those in those products and rounding up rounding off the top five, the show hey, tops 5050 commemoration box where you could have got the three I believe those three patch autograph cards during that magical 5050 season. What do you say? Yeah, there might be a little bias here for me. Just because I'm a baseball head. But like, I like the cup. I like I like what what they did with the cup. And it has the high end feel to it. I think everybody in the hockey market kind of knows and it's branded that way. And obviously NTS, you know, been doing their thing with being the the best the flagship of, you know, sports cards in basketball and football for the last, you know, however many years. So there's like the 5050 is an amazing set to where I'm mind boggled at how successful it was. But it makes sense because of the Otani hype. So but the problem is like, I don't, I wouldn't say it's the best sports card product because I think it's more of a fad. But it was super successful. And there's some monster cards that I think are going to age really well from that set. So I do like that. But I got to give it to tops Chrome update just because where they were as a brand, because tops Chrome update was sticker autos, you don't want want it because there's not true color parallels. You know, there's you get the second variation of rookies. And then the only reason why it brought value was because if you had a late call up that didn't make series two, that was the chase. So guys like Juan Soto, you know, who wasn't in series one, series two, all of a sudden becomes a huge chase. So that was the only upside of tops Chrome update before. So for them to be there, and then fanatics take over and then introduce the MLB debut patch, which is super hard to do saying, we're gonna release a new staple that's going to replace the super factor. And that's, that's where we're saying, Oh, when when will it ever take precedence over a Bowman chrome super factor, whether that's the case or not, I think it's pretty equal what people would seek as kind of like the number one in baseball. And I would say MLB debut patch is the reason. So for all that, and obviously, you know, the upgrades that, you know, just fanatics have placed in the tops Chrome product, I think that would or should win product of the year, it went from such an uncool product to an amazing product. And to the point where we're, we're waiting at 12pm to buy tops Chrome update. And I know I'm in, I'm, I'm down. Yeah, so this is exactly right. Yeah. I mean, the the concept of the debut patch, you know, some may not call it super innovative, but regardless, it was a, it's a great, great move. And it was brilliant on tops as part, because they knew tops Chrome was going to sell regardless, like their their flagship tops Chrome, whatever they put in, they could have easily put the debut patch into tops Chrome, like it didn't have to go into update. But I think it was a very smart move, because they knew tops going to sell anyways. And they knew they didn't probably don't want to print it to the moon and have, you know, all these collectors complaining about the 9000 different refractors and all that all, you know, parallels and all that stuff. So they put it into the update product, which probably wasn't selling as well, unless, like young mentioned, there is a rookie that kind of came late to the stage during the middle of the year. So brilliant move on their half, they made update completely relevant, I think, based on the innovation of the debut patch, it would this is probably going to be the winner. But my pick, it's a little bit biased and less, less about innovation is going to be the cup, I'm going to give hockey some love. And one thing about upper deck, they get clowned on a lot for just not kind of keeping up with like the hobby standards. But I will give upper deck a lot of love because as I've been chasing limited logos, the one thing that you kind of notice in upper deck, in all of their main main sets, limited logos, rookie patch auto and NHL shield, it's always on card for the most part, they're having a handful of like sticker autos. But it's like 99% on card, and it's all game used. It's none of this panini. You know, it used to panini used to even have like event Warren, but now it's become not associated with any events, you know, game or whatnot, right. So I give credits upper deck in that sense is that they've been consistent in getting all of their products, game used game Warren, and on card autos giving the collectors exactly what they want out of a premium product year in and year out. So my vote goes to upper deck. Yeah, there you go. Upper deck. Shout out from john for your cup product. No, I'm glad I'm glad you gave them a bit of spotlight. Especially you know, we have to balance it out. We if we look at all the stuff we said about upper deck, it's probably mostly negative. But but we'll give credit where it's due. For me, it's easy. I don't have to go too much into it because Sean already gave all the talking points, the tops Chrome update, just just with the invention of the MLB debut patch. It was a game changer, so to speak. So yeah, I'm going with tops Chrome update. Let's do one more. And then I'm going to highlight some of the interesting other categories that we don't have to discuss. But let's do one more to discuss together. And it's best hobby shop. All right. So you got a mint cards, I've seen their social media handles. So they're, they're active on Instagram, bleaker trading, Burbank sports cards, cards, HQ, card vault by Tom Brady, grand slam collectibles, lucky seven cards and collectibles, roadshow cards.com. And mint ink makes nice the category. Yeah, there you go. Canada represent. So yeah, what do you guys think? I before before anything, like nothing but respect to all these, you know, brands, whether you like, you know, the the brand or not, you know, I think, you know, in a time of chaos with with our marketplace, you know, these guys have been kind of like the the retail leaders of, you know, taking that step. And it was fun to even watch, you know, mint ink in our own hometown, you know, john taking that and growing that, as well. So, you know, shout out to all the owners. You know, Chris Costa, we talked about on our show, we had him on our show, you know, for him to line up with Tom Brady, I think is, is incredible. And then obviously, Jeff Wilson, kind of, you know, doing his thing with, and I'll tell you what, Jeff Wilson, one one thing that I know, I know success doesn't come because you just hit in your fluke. If success comes to those who are and to me, the amount of hate that guy gets, but at the same time, he pushes through so much and he's growing. And he's, and to me, that's, that's resilience. When you when you see someone and you see a guy like Jeff Wilson, I'm just saying, whether you, you know, you like his takes or not, I see a successful guy when I see him, because he, the amount of hate that guy gets is incredible. So him doing his things with card cards, HQ, and him growing at the same time, you know, I see his story and nothing but respect. But in this whole group of, you know, nominees, I'm going to go with card vault, I can, I am so baffled that, you know, where I seen cost to take this, take this brand and for him to be, you know, able to align with, you know, with, with Tom Brady is, is crazy, because that that's one of the biggest names in sports and relevant names, not past names. So for me to have him in the hobby, it does so much justice to the hobby itself, just by having Tom Brady in it. So I think the impact he's had, and, you know, the stores itself look amazing. Just it's not like, just put together in the last minute, this was well thought of a lot of high end stuff there. So yeah, I'm going to go with card vault with Chris Costa. Nice. Good choice. It's, it's really cool to see our local card shop minting on there. They are 100% getting my vote. There's no question. It's gonna be biased, I admit. But how can I not pick minting like shout out That's awesome. But if I'm going to pick, you know, somebody that's gonna who I think is going to win here. You know, like, the Jeff Wilson hit is so unwarranted. I don't understand. Like I get it early on, when people kind of thought he's like this sort of like sleazy, sleazy businessman that's trying to like make money in the hobby. But I don't know, I feel like he's time and time proven, proven again, that he's a collector. He loves sports. He loves, he loves the hobby. Yes, he's trying to make money off of the hobby, which I think everyone is trying to do. But yeah, he, I think his shop opening up is a big one. Like I who wouldn't want to visit that that shop, it looks like the best buy of like sports cards. It looks like a great experience. I think that's a good one. But I mean, what Chris Costa has done with card vaults, and like teaming up with Tom Brady and like the quick expansion work he's doing. I mean, I would imagine card vault is going to take the win here. But yeah, my vote. Local, it's minting all the way. Sweet. I voted for I'll tell you who I voted for. I voted for minting for that reason as well, just to rep Canada. But I can't deny everything you guys already mentioned about what Chris Costa has done with his team card vault by Tom Brady, just expansion, amazing stuff. I also want to give a shout out to bleaker trading. You know, they're a small card shop, but so many people know who they are. And if you're in New York City, you're going to bleaker trading, they do some awesome trade nights. You know, they're known for that as well. When fanatics fest was happening, bleaker trading was where it's at for a lot of people. And I think, you know, some athletes have gone there as well to break after hours. So shout out to bleaker trading, and to all the other nominations, they've really become destination points for the hobby. If you're in that city, if you're in Atlanta, you're going to cards HQ. If you're a collector, you got to check it out. You know, I mean, same thing with Burbank, you know, you're going to go to Burbank if you're in, in that region of California. So, you know, everything being online these days, it's amazing what these shop owners are able to do with their physical bricks and mortar store. So kudos to all of them. All right. Like I said, I want to kind of go over some of the categories and you know, Oh, one thing that I mentioned, or one thing that I noticed was David Adams not not nominated for some reason on this. So I guess the size of the hobby shop doesn't matter as much. That's kind of surprising, actually, that's a notable miss. And another notable miss in another category is grading company of the year guess who didn't get nominated. BGS didn't get nominated. Yes. That's like kicking them while they're down, isn't it? That is like, you got to you got to put Beckett in there. Come on. They have to be they have to be in there. So you got you got PSA, you got SGC, which is arguable now because that's going in the tank. CGC cards. Okay, that's that's deserves to be there. Tag. I would I'll go there and see three grading like I sorry, I don't know much about see through getting but I think Beckett needs to be in there. Yeah, you need to give Beckett Beckett. Some I know there. Yeah, I know we we go hard on Beckett sometimes but we still love back at the same time we we go hard because we love them. You know what I mean? And to wrap up the segment best media platform collect prospects live sports card investor sports card nonsense and trove. I mean, the glaring, the glaring interesting. Notable absence there is cars to the moon. Yeah, where's where's I was gonna say where's the podcast? Let's go man. Come on. So I'm gonna write a I wonder if I could do a write-in ballot and then write our name and then vote for ourselves on this category. But anyway, wanted to bring that up. There are about seven or eight other categories we didn't even touch on and so again, I'll include the links and then yeah, go vote. I would love to see what the results are at the end of the voting period. I will add this, Clark. I wanna just say, I know we don't talk about prospecting a lot, but prospect live. But prospect live, if you're into prospecting, that is the number one source you guys should be going to. I think they do a phenomenal job breaking down each product, what the upside is and it's not saying that they're always 100% right. I just like their framework that they have and they know what they're talking about. So for me, I just wanna shout out them because I personally visit them often and usually agree with their takes and I think we don't talk about a lot on this show, prospecting. So if you're into baseball prospecting, I think that's a site you should definitely go check out. There you go. Kudos to prospects live. All right. Okay, let's move on to our next segment. It is over under. I'm gonna keep this really short because we're actually on a time limit because we wanna buy that Tops Chrome update boxes when it drops, we're recording right before noon. So I'm gonna give you three cards total this time, all right? The theme of this over under is Shouhei cards. We did it before, I'm gonna do it again because Otani is, the market is crazy still and the number here is 10,000, all right? And the twist here is these are not your most popular Shouhei cards. I'm not gonna say Tops Chrome Rookie Auto or Bowman Chrome Rookie Auto. These are lesser known cards and I wanna see if you guys would think it's going over or under 10K. First one, the 2025 Tops Welcome to the Club three-time MVP foil fractor. And it is a one of one because it is a foil fractor. BGS95, do you think that kind of card would sell for more or over or under 10K? Man, and it's a super fractor or sorry, it's auto or no auto? Foil fractor, no auto. No auto. What was the brand? What's a foil fractor? Does that take place in place of platinum? I guess, it's a one of one, yeah, so. It's a different variation of a one of one. Or is it a new, another new one of one? No, it's been around. Foil fractor has been around. Usually like paper. It's more for paper, yes. I don't remember it being a one of one though, but yeah. I'd rather have a foil fractor than platinum any day and I know people would agree. 100%. We always talk about this, but I'm gonna say under. Okay. It clearly should be under, that's wild. That we're talking about $10,000 right now on a 2025 one of one, but I'm gonna go over because that's how wild the market is and stupid. You're right, the market is wild and stupid, but it's not that wild and stupid. It's 5,400. Yet, okay, that's good. It's still $5,400, which is kind of wild still, but not super wild. All right, second one. We talked about this set in the previous segment, the TOPS Chrome 5050 or the TOPS 5050 Otani set. And from that set, there's a 2024 TOPS Chrome one of one and it is a BGS nine. And the card that, because there's a super factor for each stolen base and each home run in that set. This is stolen base number 49. So BGS nine, the super factor of that card, no auto. That's a stolen base or home run? Stolen base. It's 49th stolen base, apparently. I'm gonna say under. I'm just gonna say under because I don't feel like that one's relevant. You know what I mean? It's like, if it was the 50th one, then I could justify it. But 49th seems a little weird to me. But like I said, the 50th could be 50K. I don't know. I don't know that market, right? So it might be cheap. So that's where I'm confused, but I'm gonna say under just based on, it is a super factor though. So, but it is stolen base. So I'm gonna say under. Okay. Wait, hang on. Do they have super factors for all of the stolen bases? All of the stolen bases and home runs? Yeah. But it's auto? No, non-auto. Oh, non-auto. Under. Okay. I don't know what the significance of 40. No, like that's wild. Like, no, like the last one, I made a kind of a, you know, a tongue in cheek or, you know, comments about going over 10,000. It's gotta be under. That's too crazy. We should rename this segment. How wild is the Shohei card market? You know? Exactly. It's under, you got it. 7,200 for that card. Got it. If it's a BGS nine five, that could very well be over a 10K card. Right. So the grade might have played a factor in that. All right. I got one more for you. The 2019 Topps Archive Signature Series buyback of Otani one of one graded BGS nine five, 10 auto. I'm gonna say over. I know that I have a good idea that this is over. Not because I've seen it or anything, but I just see, you know, I always thought those archive one of ones were kind of overrated because it's not the true like rookie but then they sell people, people eat them up and they treat them like one of ones. And I don't agree, but I'm gonna say the market agrees. So I'm gonna say it's over. It is an auto too. So. I think archive one of ones are wildly overrated. I don't like them at all. It's kind of like the white box. Yeah. You know, the basketball white box one of one kind of it's like super, super manufactured one of one to just stamp it one of one and here you go. So I would never spend my money on that card. So I'm going under. I hope the market agrees. Someone paid 10,500 for that card. So it's over. Oh man. Yeah, that was interesting. I'm aligned with you guys. I'm not a huge fan of the archive buyback one of one cards but it is what it is. I was gonna, if we have more time, I was gonna ask you if you think 2018 national treasures gold rookie patch auto number to 49 BGS nine is over or under 10 K, but that is over 11,700 probably because it's this rookie. It is non-licensed. We can get into that debate again, but I would rather pay that much 11,000 than a one of one tops archive for as crazy as that sounds. I agree. And Ohtani is the only guy that can, it's the Ohtani rule. 100% the Ohtani rule. All right, let's finish off this episode with our regular weekly segment. We call pick one and we're only good. We're only going to do yours, Hyung and John. And then, and then we'll wrap up the series about this tops Chrome update. I'm going to talk fast. So we got Wemby versus Aaron judge. Okay. We got the 2017 tops Chrome Aaron judge refractor PSA 10. Okay. It it's gone down. It's last sold for 550 bucks. Okay. So just a refractor tops Chrome rookie. All right. 550 bucks. Would you rather invest in that or a 2023 panini prism Victor Wemby Ice PSA 10. And it last sold for 640 bucks. Where's the best ROI going? Are you going with judge in the off season or Wemby while he's hot? It's the, his rookie panini prism. Panini prism. The, the true, the true rookie of Wemby. Yeah. Ice. So it's like that cracked ice look. It looks like atomic in, in, in baseball. Okay. Yeah. I'll be quick. I'm going to say Wemby. That's an easy one. As much as on the baseball side, there's a lot of argument for a judge in general. I think he's kind of surpassed the, you know, the playoff criticism and can, can he continue to repeat hitting bombs year in and year out? He's clearly doing all of that. So Aaron judge is a great buy, but Wemby is what is going to happen this year next or in the next five years, he is on that sort of old Tawny spectrum of generational talent. He would be what was, what is considered the old Tawny of basketball. So the hype is there. I think it's well-deserved outside of him getting a major injury. So it's Wemby all the way. His cards, I think is going to do really well. And just to put it out there, the Wemby is double the pop of the judge refractor. I don't know if that would make a difference. So 2300 pop on the Wemby, 1200 pop on the refractor of Aaron judge. Yeah. I mean, you've already kind of said why I probably wouldn't go for the Wemby, the pop count. There's so many different parallels of Wemby, especially in his rookie year and ice is, you know, it looks nice, but it's one of many parallels. And I don't know if it's even cracks the top 10 to tell you the truth. Whereas top score refractors classic, you know, it's obviously better than base. And I know refractor isn't numbered either, but Aaron judge that 2017 year, I think that image is becoming more iconic. Although I don't like it personally, the one where he's leaping for that pop line. Yeah. But it's iconic. It's weirdly iconic. Why are you leaping? You're seven feet tall. I don't know. But anyway, I'm going to go with Aaron judge in this case. Oh, interesting. I think for me, if I want a quicker flip, I would look into Wemby because John's right. I think he can be the next Otani. And I've been looking at Wemby and I believe that 2023 prism is the card in my opinion. I think that's, if I'm buying Wemby, I'm staying with 2023 prism. I think that has the highest upside. I'm going to try to get into a numbered. The ice has so much eye appeal, I think. I think it will do really well in terms of selling it when the market's hot. So I think if you want a quick flip, Wemby is the answer. But for me, I'm buying based on price too. So I think judge going down to 500, 400 bucks. I think there's room for it, but you're buying somewhat high because that refractor was like 200 bucks, 150 bucks, like just a year ago. So judge's price is high as well, but I think it's deservingly so. I think he's going to keep on continuing to rake and hit bombs. And he's so underrated still. And we had previous episodes that discussed this. So I'm going to go with judge refractor in this case because every time I chase on things that don't excite me, it usually bites me in the ass. So this is the case where, you know, I'm all for Wemby and I want a big Wemby, but I think in this case, I'm going to stay with the refractor judge. I think it's the better buy. Yes, judge wins this round. All right, Johnny, two minute countdown. Yep, so we're going to stick to Shohei. I know like when you're searching for Shohei, Clark, you mentioned you're kind of interested in getting the dual autos. So in the long run, and you know, many of these don't exist yet, but hopefully in the future they will. Would you rather Ohtani dual auto with one of his teammates? So it could be a Ohtani Muki, it could be Ohtani Yamamoto, which I believe there is a top snuff that, which is probably crazy. Would you rather that or Ohtani and a legend? Like Ohtani Griffey, Ohtani Mike Trout, long-term, which dual Ohtani would you rather have? Easy, Ohtani legend. I think that's the safest. If I was like a hometown collector, like a Dodgers fan, obviously that might, you know, there might be bias there, but I always look, I think the Ohtani Trout, some of those cards are undervalued to tell you the truth, just because a Trout is, that's hard to believe, just because a Trout is undervalued. So I think that's a legit play. Hmm, man. I normally, I think I would say Ohtani and legend too, because I agree, like I like the Ohtani-Ikunya combo, or I wouldn't say Ikunya is a legend yet, but like Ikunya- Or like Ohtani Ichiro? Ichiro, yeah, I like those, but I feel like the Yamamoto can hit, like that card is like hot. Like if you were to, you know, sell that this spring, I think you would maximize your gains off that particular card versus an Ohtani and a legend, like a Hank Aaron or even Nolan Ryan, let's just say. So I like the Yamamoto offside, just because Yamamoto is very hot right now. I think his rookie autos are super hot. I think that's going to carry into next year. So I'm going to go actually with the Yamamoto-Ohtani right now. There you go. Wow. Tiebreaker. Yeah, this is a tough one because like, in baseball right now, I mean, it looks like Dodgers is going to make like a dynasty run and clearly they're going to take advantage of like the Muki, Ohtani, Yamamoto, like in their prime years. So they're just going to keep spending to the moon. So I think Dodgers are going to about to make that run. So I think normally I would also pick the legends, but in the next even five years, like we might be seeing four Dodgers championships. So to have Ohtani synonymous with one of his famous teammates, like Muki or Yamamoto, I think it's going to do insanely well money-wise. So I, going against my better judgment, I actually was originally with Clark on this. And then as Hyung was talking, I was like, okay, maybe I will go with the Dodgers blue. So hate to do it, but yeah, that's going to be my pick. The fatal flaw in the argument is that the Jays are winning the World Series next year. So I'm just saying, I called it November 10th, Monday, 2025. All right. We got a little bit of time to spare before we buy our top scrum updates. So thank you for spending time with us on this pod and we'll have a brand new episode for you guys next week. Talk to you then, bye. Hey, thanks for listening to Cards to the Moon. We'd really appreciate you subscribing to our podcast, wherever you listen to our podcasts. You can also connect with each of us on Instagram at 5cardguys, or you can follow Hyung at Integrity Sports Cards, or John at TradeUatRecess. You can also check us out at 5cardguys.com. Thanks again, and hope to connect soon!