Dan Bliss of Front Row Card Show "Promoting Shows Right" E393

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Sports Car Nation Hobby is the people Weekly news and interviews. It's your number one source. Sports Car Nation the hobby is the people. Sports Car Nation what is up everybody? Welcome to episode 393. Happy to be back again. Got a great guest the next two weeks. Dan Bliss. A front row card show. Putting on great shows across coming across the US and a lot of big cities and this guy knows how to put on a show and if you've been to a front row show I'm sure you are well aware of that. So gonna cut it up with with Danny. He's a busy guy but he made some time for us the the next two weeks you'll hear from him. But as always we have to thank our incredible sponsors from Sports Collectors Digest, sgc, Upper Deck Card Ladder, ctca, the Certified Trading Card, the Association and Iron Sports Cards and happy to be affiliated with all those fine companies and services and organizations. So and you know with them we're able to to produce these shows and get this content out there. So. Dan Bliss Front row Card show and we're going to learn a lot of stuff. A lot of stuff I may, you may know like I do and and we're going to learn a few things along the way as well. So let's get this show going. Forget whatever plans you have this weekend because you're staying at home and playing on spinquest and there's never been a better time to sign up than right now. New users get $30 coin packs for just $10. All the table games you love with hundreds of slot games and real cash Prizes. That's at spinquest.com S P I N Q U-S-T.com Spinquest is a free to play social casino void where prohibited. Visit spinquest.com for more details. Save on family essentials at Safeway and Albertsons this week. Extra meaty pork back ribs bone in are $2.99 per pound limit two member price and sweet red cherries are $2.99 per pound Limit 6 lb member price with coupon plus signature select 80% lean ground beef sold in three pound twin pack bricks and is $4.99 per pound limit one member price with coupon Fresh and delicious savings for every meal. Hurry in. This deal won't last. Visit safewayeralbertsons.com for more deals and ways to save. 54-3210. All right, real happy to have the next gentleman on the sports card nation guest line. He is a huge show promoter, does some of the biggest shows that the hobby has in the country. And you know, I was mentioning to him before we went live here, something I did for a year, not on the scale that this gentleman does, but by doing it for the year I kind of know what entails. And as a, as a dealer still to this day I definitely know kind of what goes into it. But glad to get to finally talk to him. Dan Bliss from the front row card show, welcome. Thanks for having me, John. So let's start before we get into shows and, and I kind of told you my, you know, my thoughts on what I think about them and how important they are to the lifeblood of the hobby. For you, where did, when did the hobby start? What, when did it all get going for you? Well, like a lot of people, it started when I was a kid, you know, as a got into sports cards with some friends. We'd go pick out packs of cards. We'd, we'd go to a flea market and buy and sell cards and there was a guy that was a coin shop, there's a permanent shop in, in the flea market and he always had cards and he actually would have Beckett magazines. So we'd pick up a Beckett magazine and some packs of cards and then we'd also go to the pharmacy and get some packs of cards there too. So, you know, just like a lot of people, it started off as a kid just, you know, buying and selling. For us it was baseball and football Cards. We, you know, got into both of those pretty, pretty aggressively. I didn't get into basketball till a little bit later. Yeah. You know, so one, you know, I, like I said to you before we record, like to me, nothing beats. Right. An in person transaction. I'm a show dealer. You set up as well. You told me. And it's even more. And I'm sure you'll agree, Dan. Right. Dollars and cents are fine and nice. Right. But. Right. It's that interaction. Right. You're being in that same fraternity, in a room, whether it's a big room, a small room of like minded folks that, that shared the same hobby you, you do and you can't, you can't get that online. And I, I know online's here to stay. I'm not, but I'm glad I kind of started in that my hobby started in 79. So the Internet was not even a thought yet. But I'm so glad I kind of did not. I wish I was a little younger still, but because I got used to like everything was in person and you know, so it does, that doesn't get lost on me. And I get, you know, they coexist. But again those, those in person transactions and not even transactions, but even just conversations and being in the room with, with fellow collectors and dealers, you can't, you can't overemphasize that kind of your thoughts when you hear me talk about that. Well, obviously I'm on board with that. You know, the, the in person experience is just unlike anything else. It's not just about buying and selling. It's about the conversations. It's about sharing stories, it's about connecting. It's about reminiscing, sharing stories of your favorite players, sharing stories about collecting with your dad or your friends or, you know, whatever it might be and you know, talking about the cards that got away, you know, or talking about the cards that you sold and you shouldn't have and, and the ones that you bought, you shouldn't have. You know, so we, we, we've all got those stories and this, those experiences and just, you know, reminiscing in that way is, that's a big part of the hobby, I think. And that's, that's something you can really only experience at a show. Yeah, no doubt. And so let me ask you this. What came first for you? Like promoting shows or setting up or were they at the same. Well, setting up, of course. You know, I, it started for me setting up at a flea market. You know, the flea market. I told You. I went to as a kid at some point when I turned 16 and I was old enough to drive, I had a beater car and, and I would literally go sell at the flea market. Now this is outdoors, right? So I, you know, obviously it didn't happen if it's raining, but also you had to deal with the sun. Like it would bleach cards. So if you're not careful about putting your cards in the, in, out, when it's a sunny day, your cards literally will fade. So you got to be mindful of all that stuff. So that, I mean, but, you know, I was a kid, I didn't have any other options, and I would, I would go sell at the flea market. And then eventually I got to the point of realizing that, hey, maybe I could go get a table at a show. And then I started becoming a vendor at other shows. Yeah, that's, that's, that's. So when did, how many years before you, like, said, hey, I, I can, I can do these, I can put on these? And what was it, what was the motivation like? Yeah, go ahead. Well, it happened fairly quickly because I. My first show that I put on, I was a sophomore in college, so. So I was 19. And what happened is a buddy and I. And I got him into collecting and I went to Ohio State and, And I got my friend into collecting, and then we would both go to shows and be a vendor at shows, and we would, we would do that. And then at some point we decided to organize our own show and it was just. Just a couple of college knuckleheads is all it was. So we organized the show and then it went well and, and then we grew from there and we did some shows together. And then in. This is in Columbus, Ohio, and then I started organizing shows up in Cleveland, Ohio, at the same time. So even while I was in college, I was organizing shows in Cleveland and Columbus. And. But these were small shows. Like, I think our biggest Show Combined was 80 tables, maybe 90 tables the most. But it seems to me 80. It might be 80 tables might have been our biggest. And most of the shows were in the 50 table range. Did you know then, Dan, like, hey, this is something I want to grow and expand upon, and obviously we're starting here, but I see this as a, A bigger thing. Or were you just sort of flying by the seat of your pants? Which is. There's nothing wrong with that. But did you know? No, not the time. At the time, I was just trying to pay my way through school, you know, you know, yeah. And that's really all it was. It was just a source of income. My freshman year, I worked as a, as a bus boy at a hotel and that's the last time I had a job. And but you know, after that, you know, I was, I was buying, so I was still, even when I was doing that, I was still buying and selling cards. But. Yeah, but, but then I started organizing shows and then I was, you know. You know, it was just. I didn't have any big vision. I wish I could, I wish I could say that I did, but I didn't. So, in fact, after I graduated college, I got out of the hobby. And one of my big regrets, this is my big regrets is I had given my mom some of my best cards and said put, she has safety deposit box. And I said put these in the safety deposit box and leave them alone for me. And I gave her like a Clemente rookie and Olin Ryan rookie, a George Brett rookie, some 60s mantles, and told her to put them away. And sure enough, after I graduated college and then I was kind of struggling to get by and I'd stopped doing shows, so I was literally, now I'm just bleeding and went and asked her if I, if she could get them out of this, out of the vault. And I ended up selling them. And I regret that deeply. I wish I still had those. Yeah, I think we've all. Well, I think you ask anyone in the hobby, maybe a different version, but we all have those. That story. I wish, I wish I wouldn't have done, done that. Right. Works both. That's right. That's right. And, and if we can still chuckle at it a little bit and, and then that, then I guess it's, it's okay. It's all, you can always. It's all good. It's all good. Yeah. So you, I mean, you're doing shows and I, I, if I leave a city off, it's a completely unintentional. Portland, Phoenix, Salt Lake City, Tacoma, Vegas, Pasadena, San Diego. You know, that's, it's hard enough to do even like a local show like, like here. Like we have John, we also expanded east. We, we did a show in March in Atlanta, so we did an east coast show and then we have Atlanta and Orlando both in November. Yep. When you're, when you're considering a new city for you to, to put on, on a show, what, what kind of factors do you take into account, like before you decide, like, hey, let's do this. Well, first of all, it's got to be a sizable market. You know, we're not going to go into a small city, generally speaking. We want to be in major league cities that have major league sports. And we also take a look at whether or not that market is fully served by the shows in town. Like are there good shows there and is there room to improve on what's currently offered? If there's already a lot of shows in the city and if they're strong shows, we'll, we'll be like, well, who, who are we serving? You know, so we want to go to places that we feel like we're helping the community, we're helping the vendors that are live there, we're helping the collectors that live there to have a great place to go to buy and sell cards. So it's, it's, it's a combination of market as well as whether or not the market is being served. Yeah, makes sense. And you know, there's been an. As you well, well know, I'm preaching to the choir here, right. We, we've seen in the last few years post Covid with the, with the, you know, the expansion of the hobby, if you will. We've seen a lot more shows, right. We've seen more quantity of shows and we've also seen more qualities of shows, yours and included. I always ask. This is always like a topic that will come up whether I'm a guest on another podcast or guest on this podcast. It kind of, you know, I don't say always, but it does come up from time to time when it comes to shows like, can there be a point of oversight? Can we have too many shows? And obviously the, the consumer is going to probably dictate that more than anyone else by attendance. But as a promoter of shows like, how would you answer that question? Can, can we get to an over saturation? Well, you hit the nail on the head. I mean the, it's, it's gonna really come down to the, the customers deciding. And even though the market's really hot right now, you know, not all shows are, you know, doing incredibly well. So you know, there's, there's, there's some that are doing really, really well and, and some that aren't doing well at all and maybe they're not even around anymore. So, you know, it's just like anything else. I mean I did cream rise to the top. So you know, the, the best shows will, will flourish and the struggling shows won't. And yeah, there's a point of, of saturation certainly in anything. You know, there can be A point where there's, there's too much and. Yeah, and that's again, that's part of how we decide where we're going. You know, we're going to go to places where we feel, like I said that, that it's, that it's at least underserved in some way and it, it, maybe it's not underserved in quantity, but if we feel the market's underserved in quality, then then that might still be a good market for us. Yeah, no, no doubt. And you know, as someone who's been on both sides of the table, right. As a promoter for a very small stretch of time and as when it sets up, it goes now. Sure, right. It's, it's especially the bigger shows, right. It's almost impossible to please everyone, right. Someone. It's such a balancing act. And, and, you know, I know, and you know, obviously, and a lot of people. But there's some people don't realize all the details and all the stuff, you know, that it's not just you unlock the doors and come on in. Right. A lot of work that goes into these shows where someone's going to be, you know, they're not doing this rotation to show something, but they, they're going to be back in their normal spot. So this guy, you know, this person's going to be here, this show, but maybe not next show. And you got all those different personalities and, and you know, some people are very hard to please as, as, as we know, talk. Talk about for those that maybe don't grasp that concept, just the, the, the logistics sometimes of, of putting on a, a show. You know, everyone thinks a lot of people come to the show, don't realize all that behind this stuff. Well, yeah, it's, it can be overwhelming. Like people don't realize, you know, our average show is very big, John. Our average show is 540 tables. That's our average show. And we're doing two a month. So with all the shows that we have coming up, in fact, later, later this month, we're going to have. Have a show three consecutive weeks. We'll have a show starting end of June and into July, three consecutive weeks. Then, and then we get a little break when, you know, late July, obviously, the National's coming, and so we, we take a little time off ourselves and recover. And then we don't have another show till mid August. But we just had a staff meeting today. It took two and a half hours with a full team going through all the different details that we've got to do for the next, you know, four, four or five shows coming up. And the details for every show there's, there's just a long list of coordination between, you know, security tables, you know, like dealing with fire marshals, the police setting up, like the coordination of load in. What's the, what are the details about that then? Obviously we have all of our advertising, marketing, vendor badges, vendor signs, custom signage prizes, swag bags, sponsors, grading companies. There's the list just goes on and on. And then you multiply the number of different communications we have with the dealers. And when you've got 500 tables, I mean you do the math on that. If you had, oh, if we have a 600 table show and we have a one minute conversation with, with every dealer, it takes 10 hours. 10 hours to have a one minute conversation with everybody. Yeah, that's crazy. So if you do the math on how hard it is for all those little things or even table signs, it takes a minute for you to make a table sign. It takes 10 hours to do all of them, you know, so you it the hours it takes to deal with all the different nuances and details for every show. You are listening to the Sportscard Nation podcast. We'll be right back after this break. What's going on everyone? It's bluff here and we're driving through the states in the bluffmobile and the best thing that we can do is play our favorite casino style games on Spinquest. They have over a thousand games including live dealer blackjack and craps. With tons of slots and unlimited options. You can get a $30 coin pack for just $10 for new users. Sign up today. Go to spinquest.com right now Spinquest is a free to play social casino void where prohibited. Visit spinquest.com for more details. Save on family essentials at Safeway and Albertsons this week. Extra meaty pork back ribs bone in are $2.99 per pound limit, two member price and sweet red cherries are $2.99 per pound Limit 6 pounds member price with coupon plus signature select 80% lean ground beef sold in three pound twin pack bricks is $4.99 per pound Limit 1 member price with coupon. Fresh and delicious savings for every meal. Hurry in. This deal won't last. Visit safewayeralbertsons.com for more deals and ways to save. Iron Sports Cards is your number one source for all your PSA and other grading submissions. Their elite status improves turnaround times. Heck, they even provide the card savers their chat Rooms for provide updates on all your submissions. They also offer wax options and single cards to cover all the bases. Check them out on Facebook at Iron Sports Cards Group or on the web@ironsportscards.com or even give them a call at 1-877-iron-PSA. Rob's got you covered. We are. Back when I was young and I was doing 50 table shows, my mom was taking the phone calls from the dealers and she'd write them down on a, on a notepad stapled to a flyer and that was it, you know, and, and then I handled the, the advertising and you know, it was a lot easier. But I don't know when you, when, when you take it up a notch, it's, it's a, it's quite a lot of work and you've got to have a good, reliable team to do it. Yeah, that's a good segue into my next question too, Dan. Like, so obviously, you know, you spearhead this thing, but how many, how many people on staff? I know your wife's instrumental in getting a lot of things done, but overall, yeah, you know, kind of talk about, you know, all the gears that need to, need to work together. Like how big of a staff are you? We've got, we've got a full time staff of six. We've got a 2400 square foot office. We've also got storage facilities, facilities in three different cities and we've got part time, part time team. Some of them are travel, some of them are just local, typically about 10 to 12 in each city. Plus we hire local security, plus we hire police, plus we have set up and tear down people. So it's, you know, there's a lot. Yeah, and one of the reasons I love asking these questions, Dan, is because I, I don't think people realize all the different, all the tentacles, you know, insurance and you mentioned like fire marshals and security and police and, and they, again, a lot of people think you just, you get the dealers to set up and you open the doors and then when the show's over you lock up and turn the lights out and obviously more than that. And we've even got cleaning crews. You know, we got to have cleaning crews and, and then we have tablecloths and then those have to be laundered. You know, I mean there's so many different details that people don't realize. But, but you know what, here's the beauty John, is, is that if we do it right, it feels easy. It feels easy. If the, if the dealers, they just, they get vendor instructions. And then they got to show up. They check in, they go to their table. They have a great experience. It's packed, you know, all the way to the end. On both days of a show, they have a fantastic experience. And some people make a living buying and selling cards at our shows, so. And they travel with us. Some of them travel with us all over the country. And if. If it's easy for them, you know, it's funny, John, sometimes I even think I would love to just be a vendor at front row, and then I could just show up, set up, and do my thing and then go home and, you know, it'd be so much easier. Like, I'm. I'm. In a lot of ways, I'm jealous of our. Of our. Of our vendors. Yeah, no, I. I completely get. That was probably why I only did promotion for like a year and just said, I'm just gonna set up and. And do. The easier. The easier part of the two. It is hard to find good shows, though, John. It's hard to find good shows that have. Have big crowds. I mean, if. If you've ever bought and sold cards, you know that, you know, we've all been vendors at shows where we're twiddling our thumbs half the day, you know, and there's no customers. And, you know, you maybe. You maybe bring some extra cards, you start sorting through them, you know, to keep yourself busy. But, you know, it's. It's much better when you have people there, even if they're not buying from you. Even if, let's say, maybe your inventory is not good right now because you've sold too much or you're waiting for stuff to come back from grading. You know, if you're at least engaging with. With other collectors. That's part of the fun, right? Talking other people about cards. Yeah. And you could be laying down some of the tracks for a future transaction one way or the other, whether it's a purchase or. Or a sale. So I always say some of the best shows, I don't always measure a show I set up at just solely on dollar signs. Right. It's. It's all that other stuff taken into account. You never know what your sales are going to be because you. And you never know what buying opportunities you're going to get. Right? So both buying and selling, it's. It's so random. Sometimes show is packed to the walls and. And, you know, you don't do as well. And maybe it's because your inventory is not good, or maybe it's just the randomness of who came in the door. Yeah. And then buying opportunities, you never know what you're going to get sometimes. You know, you never know when something's going to walk in the door. That's some of the fun, Dan, is not knowing. Right. It's just, that's true dissipation. And hey, what's this show going to be like? What, what is, you know, what kind of cards I'm going to look at that are for sale? Then am I going to be, we'll be able to, to come to, you know, consummated deal. So it's all that, that anticipation and, you know, suspense that I, I enjoy that even, even in my advanced age here I did my, I did my show. Yeah, go ahead. If you're in the hobby, you know, we all love, whether you're just an attendee or you're, you're a vendor. The serendipity, the randomness, you don't know what you're going to see today. And that's. That I think is a big part of the fun of being in the hobby. But I will say, John, I take it very seriously as a promoter, the role of promotion. Yeah. You know, I, I feel that when someone books a table at a front row card show, that, that my job is to give them a table, two chairs, a tablecloth and a crowd, you know, and that's my job. So I, I work my butt off to bring a big crowd so that every vendor, number one, has fun because it's fun to be at a busy show. And number two, has at least an opportunity to have a great weekend. And that's all I can do. I can't make people buy from you. I can't make people sell things to you, but I can fill the room with collectors and then the rest is up to you. Yeah. And it's nice hearing you say that. Here's, here's where I'm going with this too, Dan, is I always feel like there's two type of promoters, right. Maybe three, someone, maybe one fits sort of in the middle. But there's someone like yourself, let's say, who really cares about the shoulder putting on and wants it to be the best possible for the dealers who are, you know, paying for that space. Right. Like you said, I can't guarantee you sales or buys, but I want you to have the opportunity with, with people through the door. Right, right. And that's nice to hear because I think there's another type of promoter that it's just quantity over it's just like, hey, the more shows I do, the more tables I can sell, the more money goes in my pocket. It's sort of one sided, one dimensional, if you will. And I think that that kind of comes along with the explosion of the hobby is, you know, just like we see like people who sell cards kind of get in it for the quick buck. I think that, you know, I don't think we talk about it often enough. I think there's people who get in the show promotion for just the dollars of it and not caring about their clientele or their, their customers too, which are not even, like you said, not only the dealers but the people coming through the door as well. Right. I, I care about both of them because I'm a collector too. I love going to shows, you know, I really do. And so I look at it through both lenses. I look at it through the attendees lens and then I look at it through the vendor's lens. Like what kind of a show would I want to be buying, selling at? You know, what kind of a show do I want to be at? And you know, John, we undersell tables at all of our shows. Every one of our shows we can sell more tables. Every show we do is sold out. And every show we do, we could easily sell more tables. And in many cases we have room to sell more tables, John. Yeah, we have room to sell more and we choose not to because we don't want to dilute the customers for our vendors. Do we want to make sure our vendors have a good experience? Yeah. How many times. You see, and I won't mention the, to be nice about it. Right. You, I did a show where the promoter just added a bunch more tables and the walkways were like this wide. Like people back to back couldn't even, like you couldn't even really do that. It was, it was almost. I hate. John, we don't do that either. Our vendors. Yeah, yeah. Vendors always have room. And our aisles, John, for customers are always 9 to 12ft for our aisles. We never do like you can't, you know, I've been to shows where you put your hands out, you can put your hands out and touch both tables easily on both sides. You could put flat palms on both tables. And I'm not that tall. Yeah. And we don't, we don't do that. No. And that's good to hear. Like, but I'm, I've been to, I've set up at a show that was like that. It was just, just a nightmare. A lot of people Complaining actually more. Probably more customers than. Than even the vendors because it was hard to get people. It was like boxing out at a. In a basketball. Basketball game. So. Yeah, it's nice to hear. You know, and that. That works both ways. Right? That's before the customers comforts as well. And obviously you got fire codes and, and that. All that stuff. You, you know, you mentioned some places don't care about fire codes. You know, they don't. You know, I. Yeah, we could do a whole episode on like, or. Or some places don't care about aisle widths. The only thing they care about is don't block the exits, you know, and they don't care about the aisles. And I don't care what the fire marshal tells me what I'm allowed to do. I'm always gonna have wide aisles. Yeah, yeah. No, And I'm sure your, Your vendors and appreciate that and the customers. So, you know, you mentioned police and security. It's not a new phenomenon. Right. But it's. It's become more of a focal point. Right. With death at shows. We know what happened in Dallas with allegedly a million dollars worth of cards being taken that can ruin as a dealer, yourself and myself. Right. Getting something taken is. Can be a make, uh, you know, a good day, a very bad day. You know, how have you sort of evolved with sort of that becoming more unfortunately more of a commonplace? It's not new, but I think it's because of the values of some of the stuff, as you well know. Right. It's become more prevalent, I guess, the better we take it very, very seriously. Like the Dallas event. I mean, we know, we know Ashish. I know Ashish, and I know that's. That happened to him. I. I've seen video of that incident, you know, that. That occurred after the show ended and people were still in the room that didn't have badges. So we. We're really strict on getting customers out after the show ends. We're polite about it, but they gotta go. And, and so we make sure that before the show and after the show, there's nobody in the room that doesn't have a vendor badge. In addition to that, we also check IDs of everybody, all the vendors that we check their IDs, so. So we know they are who they are. We don't allow subletting. We don't allow vendors to sublet their tables because. And this applies to multiple things. If a vendor books a table and John, people want to sublet tables all the time at our shows because our shows are sold out, some people can't get in, and then they'll offer someone a bunch of money to buy their tables. So there's a secondary market for tables at our shows, and we don't tolerate it. So what. What happens is, is that we don't allow subletting. And it, the, the main reason we don't do that is, John, for example, if you booked a table at our show, we, you would need to show your ID to come when you check in, and then we give you your vendor badge, then you go to your table. Well, if you would sublet your table. And a lot of promoters do, and that's their choice. Okay? So I'm not going to criticize or point out anybody, but if, if someone sublets your table, John, and the promoter doesn't even know that person's name, they don't have their phone number, they don't have their email. They don't know who that is. Well, if something happens there and maybe that vendor steals from somebody or they. They're selling fake cards or fake slabs or re. Or resealed hacks, there's no ramifications because nobody knows who they are. So we're, we are certainly, in our view, the most careful in the hobby when it comes to security among our vendors. In addition to, you know, making sure that the attendees are in the room when they should be, out of the room when they should be, and behaving when they're there. Between the level of what we spend on security and, and, and also uniform police officers at our shows, at every show, I don't think anybody takes security as serious as we do. Yeah, no, it's good to hear. And some great insights from a guy who puts on these huge shows. Right. And what an endeavor. Right. And like he says, you know, to go off smoothly. Right. It's. I mean, it's not as easy as it looks. And you know, I, I put on small shows back in the day. He's doing 500 tables plus multiple times, either a month or, you know, years. Doing them in different cities. A lot of gears turning. I, I love the dichotomy of that and picking his brain and, you know, seeing how the, the engine goes forward. Right. And we're not done with. Danny's coming back for part two of our conversation will be on the next episode. So, you know, hopefully you're looking forward to that as I am. And, uh, you know, we'll have, you know, like I said, we'll have Dan back too, as he grows his, uh, as he grows his franchise. So he's doing a great job. I've heard nothing but positive stuff about what he does. So glad to have mine and he'll be back next week. All right, now let's hear from our hobbies, the People Announcer, Some closing thoughts and wrap up this week's episode. Time for our hobby is the people Announcer of the Week. Hello, we are Grant, Rory, Annie, and we are Lakeside Collectibles. Please remember the hobby is the people. If you'd like to be the hobbyisthepeople Announcer of the week, do a WAV or MP3 file and send it to sportscardnationpcmail.com say good night, Kane. What's going on everyone? It's bluff here. And you know what's more American than America's 250th birthday? 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