Did PSA Grade An Altered Card? MidLife Card Chase Episode 3

V Sports talk, car talk, hobby all day, wax packs, big polls and comms. We debate. So turning and let the intro play. You're now rocking with the midlife car chase. David Chase of sports Cards live joining us. How are you? Hello. Oh, I'm wonderful. Greg Miller from Midlife Nation. Good to see you, my friend. Man. I got an interesting topic for you today and normally what I like to do is talk, throw a topic out there and we agree on it. You know, just so we kind of have a little bit of a thought process. Not today. I got an email. Veto it. Is that one of the reasons why you're not telling it to me? I don't know. I don't think you would veto this. Okay. I got an email about 36 hours ago from a member of Midlife Nation and he said this is interesting, so let me know what you think. Okay? And I said this would be a great topic for myself and David. So I told him. Now, I didn't get the, the person's name and I'm not going to share the person's name because I didn't ask the person if I could use the person's name. But we're getting right into it because I'm. I've been on pins and needles for 24 hours to hear your thoughts on this. So I'm really excited to hear what you think. So I'm gonna pull up my screen now. If you're listening, I will narrate along the way because I know if you're doing a podcast, you're not supposed to use visuals and stuff because then so on their rate. So I'm gonna pull up on the screen right now two cards. Both are 1959 tops. Mickey mantle base cards. They are both graded PSA four first impression. You see these two cards on the screen. What are your thoughts on these two cards? Those are two amazing versions of the 59 Tops Mantles. They are so hard to find. Centered. They are centered almost perfectly. I mean, pretty close to perfect. They are two amazing looking versions of this card in a medium low grade. I agree. My dad at one point, I believe had this card in an eight. No longer has that. When he did his reverse upgrade, downgrade upgrade, hidden eight of this. Hidden in an eight. He had the 1960 tops in a nine. Oh my God. And yeah, I mean that's great. Did he have that raw and he ended up getting that graded or he. Yeah, he collected raw and then when psa. Didn't you read my book? Yes, I, I never know which years and everything that he did that. But, I mean, I know he was into 1960 heavily. Yeah. So heavy into 60, also into 59. Built both sets, collected them raw. When PSA came out, the prices that cards and high grades were selling for. He's like, I have to get these graded. I don't want to get them graded. I have to get them graded. And then they graded so high because he had such a sharp eye that he's like, I have to sell them now because they're worth too much to keep. Okay, so I'm gonna now show you. The back is in your book, Greg. I apologize for not memorizing the whole thing. Okay. Okay, let's take a look at the backs of the cards now. Okay. What are your thoughts now when you look at the cards? I mean, I. That was the difference that I ended up seeing when I looked at the front. Also that the one on the right was a lot more toned than the one on the left. I mean, it kind of even looks Venezuelan. The one on the right a little bit. Right. With the kind of, like, darker toning to it. Man, look at how white the one on the left looks. And there's a little bit of toning and paper loss on the one on the left, too. Neither of those backs bother me. But definitely the one on the left is a lot more white than the one on the right. And it's a newer grade, which I always notice, and that's a really new grade. A 15 number starting 1599. Like, brand new grade. Yeah. Like, literally probably graded straight to P to ebay or something. Right. So listen, if I had both of those cards next week. Can I see the fronts one more time, please? Yeah, I mean, I like them both. The one on the right, again, has a little bit more toning to it. If I would be happy with either of these two. If I were to choose, I choose the one on the left because of the newer cert number and because it's. It is a little more white now. It looks a little more washed out, too, Right? In certain ways. But I would be very happy with either card. I would be very happy with either card, too. If you're listening it at home, I'm showing the backs again, and the card on the back is definitely more yellow where the one on the left is more whiter. And it also has some staining on the one on the right sort of toward the top. Almost looks sort of like the Mediterranean with the Italy sticking out from the continental Europe. Exactly. Now, one of these cards just Sold the. Well, not just sold one of these cards sold in late March. Okay. Okay. The one on the right sold in late March for $960 and has a card ladder value of 824. Which that basically tells me that they paid a little above comps for the one on the right, which it deserves it because it's a very well centered, I think high I appeal card. Without a doubt. It should be well more than what the average card ladder price is showing. And I think. Did that. Did that sell on Probestein? Did I say it did sell on Probestein? Yes, it did. So I don't know if that helps it or hurts it at this point. Yeah. But the one that sold, which was the one on the right you referred to as more toned, that had more staining, sold for 960, probably, you know, a good 20% over the average. And the one on the left is currently for sale on eBay for $1,600. So double comp. Significantly more than the one on the right sold for. Okay, ready. Ready for me to let you have it? I'm ready. I believe they're the same card. Really? I believe they're the same card. Let's go back and look at the cards. I believe it's the same card as does. I mean, you can't tell on the front. You can't tell that they're the same card. They look different, right? I mean, they look one. The probe scene one is. Is a terrible photo if. If that is true. But can I. Let's see. The. The front is very tough to see if it's the same card. I'm gonna give you more evidence now. I see which. Here we go. So it was cleaned. Let's look at. Let's look at the screen now. I've zoomed in on the bottom. This is a good topic, Greg. I've zoomed in on the bottom eighth of the card. Okay. Follow with me on the screen, David. By the end, there's a dot here and a dot here which matches the dot here and the dot here. Okay. I get over to the right. If you look at this dot right on the edge here matches this dot on the edge here. The same cluster of dotting around the T matches. I'm going to show you more pictures to demonstrate that I believe that they're the same card. Okay. It's 100 the same card. Just by you showing me that. Okay. Completely agree with you. Just in case there are doubters out there, I want to go a little bit further. I Zoomed in on the New York Yankees Again, it matches the dots on the right. Match the dots to the left of the N matches. I, I am very, very, very confident it's the same card again. Now you look at them and you go, oh, maybe it is. So, so we know what happened. Let's look at the backs of the cards. Okay, let's look at the backs of the cards. So this is the images when the one sold in March, late March. Okay. It has a bunch of toning. It has a stain. Somebody could have hypothetically seen that and said, if I soak that, I bet I could get that stain out. And I think that card's a six. And then they. So if we look at the. Well, the one on the bottom up when they were, when they were soaking, it is. They got a little paper loss because they were trying to scrub it a little too hard. They tried to give it a little too much of a massage on the bottom. David, you are underestimating me. You don't think that I have a zoomed shot of that? If you look says Kansas City, New York, New York, there is clearly paper loss now because where the staining was the heaviest and the New York, New York and Kansas City was fine before, now it's washed out and missing some paper because of the, the stain that they were trying to get out when they were trying to do whatever they were doing to the card. Okay, now there are a lot of questions that are going to come out of this. I'm not quite ready for them yet. Just in case you can see the fisheye by the 10. Also just to confirm, David, you're underestimating me. I'm a professional, David. My goodness, great minds think alike, buddy. We have the exact same fisheye. Right below the one there is a mark. Right below the zero, there is a mark. They are clearly the same card. Yeah, 100%. In case you were wanted a closer look at the actual damage that was done to the card because again, because they were trying to get that heavy staining out, there is clear paper loss. Now on the back of the ones that quote unquote wasn't as toned and had a super white back because it was soaked. Now let's look at the card post soaking. So my hypothesis is somebody bought this in late March, they immediately cracked it out. They immediately soaked it and tried to clean it. They immediately sent it in with a fast turnaround time because they were certain it would get more than a four. Came back as a four, which I'm a little surprised that it came back as a four, which we'll talk about here in a second with that paper loss. And then they re holdered it when or they got it regraded because they didn't cross it. They didn't do like a, you know, a fresh slab. They cracked it. After they cleaned it, they sent it back in, it came back the four. So now I've got a couple of questions for you. Let's hear them. Got a couple of questions. Okay. First psa clearly, they clearly graded a card that had been soaked and altered. Agreed 100% and that shows how many cards we have that are soaked and altered. Obviously no doubt there are. This is not something that is unusual. This is something that probably happens all the time. Now does that mean PSA doesn't know what they're doing? Not necessarily. It doesn't mean that PSA doesn't know what they're doing. But they definitely miss this one, right? They always miss them. I believe that there are such a large percentage of cards that are soaked trimmed in PSA slabs. I do think that if AI can ever figure out where there are alterations of cards, I think that it's going to be a very, very, very big problem for psa which is why they're going to always try to get rid of things. Having artificial intelligence to figure things like that out because their payouts would be huge. But man, that's a great, this is a great card. I love this discussion. You told me that you I was going to love this discussion. So we're talking about the latest technology, these cards. This card was just graded, the one on the left that is currently for sale for 1600 because the person spent 960 on it plus tax, plus shipping, plus the fast turnaround time. They're probably into the card about I don't know, 12, $1300. They're trying to make a quick $300 and they were mad when it didn't come out. Now I didn't purposefully, I didn't block out the name of the ebay seller for the record in case people are interested about that. I will say that the ebay seller does have other things for sale including A52 tops, Willie Mays, which got an authentic altered slab from SGC which is a very interesting card that looks like it has been through some treatment but it still came back authentic altered. I did that because if anybody out there is interested in furthering the investigation, knock yourself out. But that's not the part that I'm particularly interested in. The part I'm interested in is talking to you about, even with the latest technologies, we're missing cards that are clearly being soaked. We have cards that are being purchased online. Cracked resubmitted treatment is being done to them. And I, I just feel like it's important to have these discussions about these sorts of things because these things matter. But out of all of it, obviously the treating the card is, is interesting. You know, it's, it's, it's bad that that happened. But the thing that I'm struggling with the most, and I'm going to pull it back up here on the screen, is how does a card with that kind of paper loss right there get a 4? How does that card still get a 4? Does the card still deserve a 4? Because I thought when there's any paper loss, the highest the card could get is a two is what I thought. It's hard to say that that's paper loss. You know, it's where it looks like where more than paper loss. Right. If there was like a chunk that was missing, that would be different. And I think that just the words are, are less pronounced. I don't know if that. I, I kind of look at it as paper loss also, but I can see why they didn't grade it as a 1 or a 2 based on that issue, because there could be wear on a card that has some of the wording be a little rubbed out. Now, on my episode that posted on, I guess it would be Wednesday, which is the day we're recording this. I talked about you're off doing your detective work on the guy's other listings right now. I can see. No, I was going after. Okay, well, well, my, my, my thought is, you know, when we're, when we're looking at these sorts of things, I talked in my Wednesday episode about the fact that there is people, there are people who call changes to a card restoration. Some people would say that that card was restored. Some people would say that that's altered. And in my episode when I talked about, you know, what is altering, what is restoration? Trimming, I think we all agree, is altering. Some people might say, well, if it has a rough cut and you trim it, then it's restoration. Where do you fall on what's acceptable and what's not acceptable and what is out of bounds, like is using a chemical on a card out of bounds is, is pushing down on a crease and trying to make it more of a wrinkle. Out of bounds, like, where is the line in the sand? Because this person either did something clearly deceptive or they did something that they believe is okay. And it's something that has been in the, you know, vintage universe forever. What's the line in the sand? I'm going to tell you the line in the sand, and then I'm going to be devil's advocate and. And try to have a discussion about this in a way that's going to make everybody uncomfortable. Okay. But first, for me, obviously, the same way I'm sure you feel anything that is done to. To be deceptive on a card, to make it into a better state without anybody else knowing about it is wrong. It's unethical. You should not do it. Nobody should do it. There's a. People like me do not want to have our card soaked. Yes, Greg, So my question is, I had a pirate card that had a little bit of schmutz on the surface of the card, and I sent that card in and it came back as altered. And I cracked it out and I'm like, what do you mean it's altered? And there was schmutz on the card. It was like, spillage and like maybe a drip of somebody's coffee splattered onto it or something. So I took a microfiber cloth and I rubbed it on the card. That's fine. That. That schmutz came off and I sent it back in and the card got a four. Now it's in my permanent collection. I'm never going to try to upgrade that card because to upgrade it would be too expensive. The card is fine with me. But, Mike, so you just told me that altering the state of the card without telling somebody is crossing the line. Did I cross the line there? Okay, so there are. I like that. I like that question. I think I might. For me, everybody has their own way. This is, for me, a microfiber cloth is okay. And I don't think adding any liquid to it is okay, but like, any kind of microfiber cloth or even, like, you know, Jeremy and Joe and I had a conversation about this very recently on Sports Cards Live, I think where if. If, like, the card bet, like, you drop it and let's say it bends a little bit, and then you undo the bend with your hand. Like, not thinking that you're doing, like, you're altering it, but obvious by you pushing back down the corner. Right. That you dropped the card on, that's technically altering it, too. Listen, there's always exceptions to every rule. We have to be a little bit normal about this because we are very crazy about this. Hobby and the rules within it in general. Soaking it, trimming it, things like that. Even like, spraying it somehow to be able to do it. I think that most people would agree that that is a taboo thing to do to a vintage card. But I. I mean, I can even give a. Even though I believe that, I still question it. And I think it's okay to question things because of, you know, comics, which I think are very similar to cards. They do allow them to be pressed. And even psa, you can submit a card to PSA for your comic and get it pressed. And it does not. It's not considered altered. And they smooth out the pages and they will grade it right after that. And it is not. Nothing is mentioned that it is pressed. When you end up getting that, it's designated as pressed 100%. It is not designated as anything. It is totally fine in the comic world. Can I tell you about a text that I just received? Like, just this second? I got a text from Dustin. Sports cards dad. And he said he loves your hat. It's got ALF on it, by the way. I didn't know we were live. That's the most amazing part. I know he still knew. He knew that you were wearing an Al Pat and he was so excited. He didn't have your number. He had my number. And so he said, I gotta let them know that that elf hat is rad. Well, I appreciate that. Thank you, Dustin. Okay, so, yeah, I tend to agree with you for the most part. I think foreign substances out of bounds. I think tools out of bounds. You know, if you take your finger and you, you know, you wipe something, it's okay. And. And I don't know why I tend to think, you know, a microfiber cloth is okay. It just feels okay. Even though you're still using something to improve the. The look of the card. And it doesn't. When you describe it that way, it doesn't sound okay. But it. It feels like I'm not doing something wrong. But if I were to take out a razor blade and straighten. Build up a corner, I would feel like that would be. I would feel like I'm doing something I hope nobody finds out about. And if you're doing something that you feel like if somebody found out, this would be bad. I'm curious the person who clearly cleaned this card, if they. And. And again, let me just say this. The seller that I showed the listing on ebay, this. We don't know if the seller is the one who bought this card, cleaned it and submitted it again. It could have been then flipped to this dealer too. That's possible. We don't know who the owner is. Now. If. If the person. If it was like through psa, you know, and it was. It got graded and then immediately listed through psa, then we know it hasn't changed hands probably. Although it could have gone to the vault and then to somebody else. So we don't really know who submitted this card. PSA would have a record of who submitted this card. But PSA I don't think regularly is tuning in to the Midlife Card Chase. But you never know, I suppose. Yet. Yet. Okay. I do wanna do want to do it. Go ahead. Yes. Let's get a little uncomfortable with this. Can I first. Can I first throw something out there? Yeah. I do want to thank our friends at Auction Wire who are the sponsors of the Midlife Card Chase. After the first episode is when they communicated with us that they wanted to sponsor the show. And so that means a lot to me that they immediately had faith in the two of us and were willing to show their support. So I appreciate that very much. If you are out there and you have not tried Auction Wire, there's not, no reason not to. We have a new promo code, SCC for Sports Card Clubhouse. Again, SCC gets you two months for free of Auction Wire. I love how when I go to the landing page here, it knows what I like based on my past searches. And it right off the bat has one of my saved searches. There is a beautiful T206 bat on shoulder. Ty cob in a PSA3, which is on a Hugginson Scott auction right now. That has about a day and a half left as we record this. And then there's also a T206 Batcob bat on shoulder, and a PSA4 on a mile high auction, which has about a week and a half left on it. So my saved searches, it's starting to get to know me. And the system immediately on the landing page starts to find things that I like. So again, check out. Knows you enough to know that you're looking for a Joe Torre autograph ball. Is that on your list? I think based on probably the fact that I have a lot of Yankee saved searches. You know, DiMaggio Garrig, it says, oh, other Yankee hall of Famers. Here's a Mantle signed bat. It definitely knows. Let's see what else is on there. If you want to, if you want to look, I mean, we can go over a little further. Right. There's an alkaline 64 tops. Big. It's got some. Look at that. Oh, look at Crosby sign. That's cool. Yeah, Crosby, Stills and Natchez, we got. I. I've been looking a lot for. I'd really like to get a 2001 Tiger woods upper deck auto card pack pulled auto card in my collection. That's something I'll be looking for at the National. Anyway, again, thank you to auction Wired. Again, the. The 60 day free trial is promo code SCC. Okay, so you said let's get uncomfortable. I love being uncomfortable. There's nothing I like more. So go ahead. I don't want to get hate for this. Okay. Because I, I'm trying to further the discussion. Even though we both listen, it's boring. If we both say, of course neither of us want an altered card, a washcard, obviously. Okay, that is a. We both feel that way a hundred percent. Okay, let the record talk about it. Let the record show. But let's just talk about this for a second. Does it hurt us to know that a lot of our cards have been soaked or trimmed? If they're in PSA holders right now, in this market, in the way that we sell and buy cards at this moment in time, is it hurting us to. To not know? Well, there's, there's a lot in that question. That's a very loaded question. And the first thing I would say is every. Not everybody. A lot of people would say the number one reason why you get a card graded is for the authentication to make sure it's not altered, to make sure it's from its original state, to make sure that it's. It's a real card. I have somebody who reached out to me and we've been instant messaging. Is it called instant messaging? Direct messaging on Instagram? I'm not an Instagram guy, but I, I know I have to be it. So he, he's been asking me, sending me pictures about a card that he's like, is this fake? And I'm like, it looks fake, but I don't know for sure. Try this, try that. And I've been trying to walk him through it and he's like, maybe I should just send it in. I'm like, yeah, you should probably send it in. Because that's supposed to be the place that we go is we go to the expert to tell us, number one, first and foremost, that it's authentic. Authentic. And that it hasn't been messed with. But if in the current market right now, that card just came back from psa, just came Back like within a couple of weeks probably and it was clearly soaked and that card got a, a numeric grade, so. So does it harm us? I have no doubt that I have cards and slabs right now that have been altered. You do as well. There's no doubt that we both do. And you're right that the community seems to be okay with it as long as it's in a slab. If it, if it made it through the screening process, then we'll just all agree that it must be fine. But it's not fine because there are cards that got through the cracks like this one. So is it harming us? It's not harming us. But I can tell you this for me like, and, and I even, I even pulled a clip about something today and I'm going to play it right now and then we're going to finish this. This came from your discussion with Joe Pero and Jeremy Lee on the Hangover. That must be brilliant. I mean this has got to be just gold. Let's take a look at this gold. When you're talking about honesty, you know, about anti alterations and stuff, some things that I also don't mind as much as other people is sometimes even like a little bit of dirt, right? Because then you know, it hasn't been cleaned or the 51 Bowmans that have wax on the back which I know can be taken off too. We'll take that. That's an honest back and it's some honest dirt to make it where we know that it hasn't been soaked, you know. You know this comes like. Exactly. I just, I'm okay with these honest issues. Even a bit, even a bit of a pencil mark on a card. If that's going to save me thousands and thousands of dollars, I think I'm, I'm okay with that. So yeah, it's a really interesting, interesting topic there and I'm kind of really enjoying the idea that honest issues are really just ways to get into higher. I appeal cards at a low, at a lower price and that's something I think a lot of people are looking for these days. So, so I mean, I mean you guys said it perfectly and I was listening on my way to work this morning that when you see dirt, when you see wax, when you see, you know, edging, I say all the time I love rough cuts on, on edges because I know that means it would have been so easy for somebody to alter that and make it look better. Like I like that because it means it's original. Atoning in a gouty card I have no problem with because it means nobody messed with it. And. And so is it harming us? It's not necessarily harming us, but one of the reasons I am cool with what, what Jeremy calls sexy corners is because I know that somebody didn't try to unsexify them. It makes you really think how many of these cards. Listen, I love low grade, high I appeal cards and I'm sure a lot of them have had a bath, as sad as that is. I mean, looking at the way that this mantle is, because I would have bought, I would have bought either one of them, but I liked the one that was more white better. And Tony actually brought this up to me when I had a very strong stance against vintage autograph on a sports Cards Live episode. And he said to me a very similar version to this is, you know, you love the high eye appeal, low grade stuff. You don't think so many of those like the way that they have such high eye appeal just because it has like a tiny bend in the back, Maybe it's been altered to have that tiny bend look less than what it really is or something like that. And he's probably right. And it's sad that so many of our cards have this issue. I don't know what's going to be done about it. And if PSA can really ever figure it out or a different company that has artificial intelligence that can tell if a card is ever, ever been soaked or trimmed, PSA is going to have a lot of payouts. A lot. I agree. And if there's a light that you could shine that would show some foreign substance that had dried on the card, you're right. And it also has the potential to completely throw the whole grading industry into disarray if that were to happen. What I have found is the, the collecting community always corrects whatever the issue is. So what, what started happening a few years ago is there started being wildly inconsistent grades. That was one of the things that happened out of the huge influx of graded cards to the grading companies, especially psa, because they were the most overwhelmed is they were hiring people and the inconsistencies were all over the place. And so how did the collecting community adjust? Well, the way that they adjusted was they started going for eye appeal instead of just relying on the grade because they said, man, it's just an opinion. It's just one guy who looked at the card for a few minutes. When I look at the card for a few minutes, that one over there looks nicer. And I Think part of the reason that the eye appeal movement happened when the I appeal movement happened is not because one day Dylan's wife walked in and said, why are all your cards off center? It's because the grading was so inconsistent that the pendulum swung back and people said, screw the grade, it's inconsistent. That one looks better. The grades don't mean as much. I believe that's what happened. And I believe that if the soaking and the card care kits and things start getting a hold of cards and they're able to slip through the cracks like this particular card, the way I think that the pendulum will swing from that is the color saturation will matter more in buyer's opinions than it has over time. The cards that have the super rich color, I believe, are probably the ones that weren't soaked, because we can look at a couple of cards right here. Right here. And the only difference between the card, because it's the same card, my friend, is that the one on the left sat in a bath for 24 hours and then was pressed to. To get all the liquid out and the one on the right wasn't. That's part of the reason the, the, the picture on the people would say, oh, no, it's just the scanner. The scanner on the left is P. This, I got this scan from PSA's website. I didn't get it from an online listing. That's from PSA's website. This is the PSA scan. The one on the right is off of ebay because this serial number didn't have a scan of the card in the system on psa, when I ran the cert, the card, the cert was still active, which again tells me anyway, so I think color saturation is going to start to potentially mean more as a swing of the pendulum. If all of a sudden cards start getting cleaned more and all the cards get doled out. When you look in the case and you see one with deep, rich color, it really pops now because all the other ones have been soaked. Yeah, I mean, it's a, it's a great point. And by the way, I think PSA scans are usually a little bit more juiced than a regular photo also. So it really is washed out. If that's coming from the PSA website. I was thinking the same thing as you when you first started mentioning that eye appeal, how we overpay for eye appeal and even in the same grade. I mean, anybody right now that's cracking out anything that's in A four and trying to do something like that is really dumb just because how hard it is to get a grade these days anyway. And that for the what I was looking at when you asked me am I researching something? I think you said that that one sold for like 860 bucks or something somewhere around there, right? The one on Probestein, it sold for 960. 960. So I mean that's like an all time high for a four. Yeah. That had already sold for. So now that I know that, I mean you could list a buy it now for any price. Right? That's like putting up your million dollar home for a three million dollar price tag. It doesn't mean it's gonna sell. But that person was upset when the four came back. But they also messed up on the soaking process also. All right, now I wanna, I wanna pivot the conversation unless you have any last thoughts that you want to share on this before we pivot to the next. I just want to reiterate. We both obviously think that alterations are the worst and it just really shows that PSA has no idea what they're doing and that there's a lot of cards that are soaked and trimmed that are in our cases, which I know Greg's gonna get uncomfortable with but no, I'm not uncomfortable with it. I, I, I think, I think it's a little strong to say that PSA has no idea what they're doing. I think that the problem is PSA is growing faster than their expertise can keep up with and so they're missing things that I think potentially they wouldn't have missed in the past. I am not defending psa. I haven't sent a card to PSA in a long time and it's for a reason. But I, there's clearly some gaping holes in the screening process still when that card is that said, put me in the, the grading room. I feel like I know cards. If, if that card came across my desk and I'm grading it, I don't know how I would know that it was soaked. How would you know that it was soaked? How would you know that that there was a stain on the back of that card? I don't know how you could pull possibly determine that. Which is the whole reason that grading is an opinion and we should take it with a grain of salt. Do you think that the person that purchases that card, if they saw this video, they could send this information to PSA and get the guarantee payout? Oh, they certainly should. I, I would think that if, I would think that, I mean I would think that if I DM'd NAT with the cert and the two pictures, I would think that, I would think they would deactivate the cert. Now, is that my responsibility? Because I will definitely have a couple of comments that say you have an obligation. You found this out. You need to protect the future buyer. You need to let them know. I need to think about that. Maybe I'll, maybe I do need to do that. Do you think I need to do that? Do you think me seeing these cards, which was brought to my attention by a viewer and alerting me to this situation, do I have an obligation to reach out to Nat and desert this particular card? It's a great question. It is a great question. I don't know what my responsibility. I don't know either because I really, I mean, I'm saying this, which I know sounds crazy, but I think that there is such a large percentage of our cards that have this issue that it's just, it's a draw. Like, like, I think with me having such a strong high, I appeal low grade cards, I have a feeling that a very large percentage of them have had some sort of thing like this, which is just sickening. But if you, we haven't had proof before. I know. So I guess, I guess this is what I would say. I probably wouldn't be the one that would do it, but I would understand if somebody did and I would think that that's totally fine. I, I, I'm as, I'm, as, I'm working through this in my head right now because this all just unfolded. Yeah, like I got this message. Like, I, I don't, I don't, I can't remember if it was yesterday morning or the evening before. It was in the last 36 hours that, that I would, this was even brought to me so I mean, had time to process this. Plus I'm in my last week of school and it's crazy. Send a tweet right now, Right on there, right now. I think I need to let him know. I think that, I think. And the reason I say that is because I always want to put myself in somebody else's shoes. If, if, if somebody else were made aware of a card that I eventually was going to buy and they knew that it had been altered, I would have hoped that they would have alerted people to protect me. So I think, because I would want that treatment for me, I feel like I think I have that obligation to do that for the next person. So I think when we're done, I think I'm Gonna screenshot the side by side pictures that I just showed and I'm gonna. I'm gonna DM them to Nat and, and then at that point, it's up to Nat. So for you, it's a one time try to do it. If he doesn't respond, you did your due diligence. You try. Well, I mean, what is it? You're making it seem like I should drive down there if, if Nat doesn't take, you know, my pictures as evidence, like, what am I supposed to do? Listen, you don't have to get so uppity of me. I'm just, I'm just asking you. So, one, you're, you're gonna reach out one time. That's what you're. I'm going to send the head of the company and I'll probably also send it to Ryan Hogue, who. I've had dm. I've had DM communication with both of them. So I know they at least see my messages and they have responded. I think I'm going to send it to both of them. And at that point, it's like, you know, if. How many times are you supposed to report that the building down the street's being robbed? Am I supposed to keep calling 911 until somebody's there? Obviously, yes. That's not even a question. So thank you for explaining it that way. But while you're at it, will you please just add in that I have an order at PSA since October 27th. Yeah, still is in QA. Just add that as a PS at the end of your correspondence. October 27th. Dude. All right, this next segment, this is something, because one of the things, you know, there's always. There's always people that come to show, come to listen to content, and they are all craving a different thing. And one of the things that a lot of people crave is actual looking at cards, specific cards. Analysis of specific cards, which we've done a little bit of here with this mantle and talking about everything. But there are some cards that you and I both think are great cards, and we think the other should consider adding to their collection. Now, in a perfect world, I think we would do this with cards that we, we actually own. We believe in enough that we own. But, you know, there are probably cards that we think both of us should have that we don't yet have. So we're going to do this thing where we recommend a card to the other and we make sort of a sales pitch to each other on why we should add it and in addition to each other, potentially anybody listening might also be interested in these particular cards. So we're going to start with you. So this is Chase Recommends. And the card that you are choosing and recommending for this particular, I guess, episode is the Dandy Mickey Mantle, which, by the way, I think I saw today. There's a 7.5 for sale right now for, like, 50 or 60 grand, which is gorgeous. But tell us the one I want you to get. Yeah, no, not really. Another part about this that Greg and I were going back and forth for is that we both know each other pretty well, right? So we both know how we collect. And maybe this is a card that would fit in a certain way, but we know that the other person's not that into it. So let's see if I can convince him or he can convince me. If this is a card that could be on his radar. Okay, so, Greg, by me reading your book, Greg, I know that you do not collect Mickey Mantle cards because your dad, that's his favorite player and he has a lot of Mickey Mantle cards, right? Am I correct by saying that? That's correct. So you have, actually. Even though Mr. Vintage has zero Mickey Mantle cards in your collection, right? Correct. Okay. So this is a different Mickey Mantle card, which I think has an amazing photo. I mean, look at Mick right there, smiling. I mean, that's a great, great picture. He looks like such a cool guy right there. And the thing that's cool about it, which I know that it's not just a regular Mantle, right? Your dad has always been into tops, right? Am I right by saying that? For the most part, he was. He was pretty much a predominantly Topps collector, but in the last couple of years, he has added some Bowman cards and things. Yes. Got it. But just like, that's very similar to my dad. My dad's always been Topps. Very recently started getting into Bowman, But, I mean, getting into, like, these really off brands like the Dandy or the Red Heart, seem to be a little bit off for both of our dads, I think. And here's the cool thing about this card. Besides it being a beautiful card, it's so cool that it was in bags of chips, it's stained, it's dirty. It was literally in there without being in a baggie. And let's just talk about populations for these cards, okay? I wrote these down because I did homework for you, Greg. 1951 Bowman. There's over 4,000 of them of the Mantles. We're only talking about Mantles out of the 52 tops. There's 3, 000 of them. So less than the Bowmans. The 53 tops, there's 9200 of them. Now let's get to the weird card, the 54 Red Heart. There's 2500. So there's less red hearts than 52 mantles, which is interesting. Take a guess how many dandies there are that are, you know, in the population. I think it's really low. I don't want to undersell what you're selling, because I love what you're selling right now. I'm going to say 300. It's more than that, but I like your point. It's 800. So let's just think about that for a second though, okay? That's about a quarter of how many 52 mantles, right? That there are like about like, probably like 30. Like, you know, 27%, 30% of the amount that are in there, and 18% of how many are in the 51 Bowman mantles. So it is a harder to find mantle. It's a very iconic mantle, and it's a cool one to find. And you know what? I actually think that it's kind of a homage to your dad to have a card like this, which is a mantle that he's not going for, that could be part of your collection that represents him. Also, everything you say I love, except you just said that my dad's not going for. I would be willing to bet that my dad would love to add this card to his collection. Now, we've not specifically talked about this card, but I would be stunned if he doesn't want it. Let me ask you a question, and I'm going to catch you off guard here. Okay? You have no idea what this question is, but I'm going to make a point with it. I was about work. What's your favorite Disney character? Come on. Jessica Rabbit. Serious? Let's say Donald Duck. What do you mean? Let's say, is it Donald Duck or not? I mean, I don't really have a favorite Disney. Everybody, like, I like Simba. Simba's my guy. How? Let's pick him. Simba, you seem like you would be really into, like, Goofy. Goofy seems like you're. Are you trying to tell me who my favorite Disney character is or are you asking me the question? Okay, so you want to go with Simba? Okay, yes. So let's say you love Simba, and you and I, we. We finished the day in Disneyland and we're at. We're at the Disney Store. Together there on Downtown Disney. And we walk in and I walk in and there's a Simba shirt. And I'm like, that's a cool Simba shirt. I'm not gonna run over and buy the Simba shirt because you might like it. Simba's your guy. He's not my guy. He's your guy. So I'm gonna let you have every crack at every Simba item in the store. And I'm just gonna go look in the Eeyore shelf, which is my favorite Disney character. Of course it is. All right, is it my turn to pitch now? Wait, wait, wait. So I agree with you. And just to kind of reinforce this card, you don't need this in a high grade. There's going to be staining on the back. And I mean, that's the beauty of this. If you can find like a nice version of that card with a little bit of staining on the back, that's a one. Which I think most of them are ones. It's like a two to three thousand dollar card. I'm not downplaying that. I know that's a lot of money, but it's a grail card. Right. And for you to get a Mickey Mantle card like this, that has only 800 in the population compared to 25 or 3,000 of the 52 tops, it's a pretty cool card. All right, that's my pitch. Sorry, go ahead. Even if you don't like it, I'm going to ask my dad if the dandy mantle is on his list. And if it's not, I'm being dead serious with you right now, David. Yeah, it's going on my list. Wow. Yep. This would, this would be the mantle that you would go for in if your dad was not going for it. I mean, the only mantle that I would rather have. He doesn't have the 51 bowman or the 52 tops. He has the 52 bowman. Yeah, I would say the realistic mantle is this one. I also have a huge affinity for the 1960 mantle because my dad is a 1960 set collector and that was the card in the set that he collected and he had like the nicest one on planet Earth. So that will always be like a very special card in my heart. But yeah, I might go for the, I might go for the dandy mantle if my dad doesn't. Isn't interested in it. But I'll be stunned if he's not interested in it. Cool. Okay, my turn. So what I recommend to you, my friend David, is the Autogram rookie card. Now, I have so many thoughts about the Autogram rookie card. To me it is an absolutely beautiful image of Autogram. Now, you know, you and I are both big fans of Chris Ho and Chris Hoge is always talking about M total MVPs. He's talking about championships. Otto Graham has seven championships. Seven. Now some of those were before the NFL was created because it was pre NFL and it was the other league. What was it? I wrote it down. The AAFC. He has four AAFC titles and he has three NFL titles. Okay, so he has seven championships. He has five MVPs, three NFL MVPs, two AAFC MVPs. I mean, five time MVP for the season, seven time champion. And I think it's a beautiful card. And when you think of vintage football cards, okay, so you're talking like, you know, I'm not talking pre war football, I'm talking vintage. So we're talking like 48 to like 1960. We'll say this card would be on the Mount Rushmore of that stretch of time. I mean, it's this, it's the, the Jim Brown, it's the Unitus and the BART star. Probably the four, I would say are like the big four. And if you were to say what is the one? I mean, we know in football it's all about the quarterbacks. The unitist rookie card is a triple print. So it's fairly common to get. Not that hard to get. It's less expensive because of it. I, I, I mean, to me this is the car, it's a Bowman. All the other cards are Topps cards. Like, I think it's a beautiful card. I think that any football card collector has to have an Autogram rookie card. He is the original, I mean he, he's the goat of football from the golden era of sports and sports cards. So what do you think? Are you in? I'm not sure if I'm in, but I do like this pick. For me, I didn't want your stupid card anyway. The dandy's out. No. Part of the fun of this is to not 100, just agree with the other person. But here I, I do like this card. And this was on my list for a very long time and it could go back on my list. And I like what you're saying there. I didn't realize how much of a star he was. I mean, it really shows how I just don't know enough about old football statistics, you know, and how that's the reason why probably vintage football is not as popular as the other sports because their stats are just, they do not compare to today's stats. So. But I mean, when you said like the championships and MVPs, I mean, man, what a stud he was. I, I only have, I used to have a lot more football cards and now I've condensed it down to 4. I have a Peyton Manning chrome rookie, a Sammy Ball leaf card, a Joe Namath rookie, and a couple of Jim Brown rookies. So I'm very particular in my football vintage. I used to have a Unitus. But just like what you said, they're so easy to find. I just didn't love it. I would always get a BART star. And this is up there with, I think this is probably above both of those. I agree with you. If I were to buy another vintage football card, this would probably be my top one. And it is a beautiful photo. It is very iconic, which I like to go for also. You have this card, right? Yeah, I have. It's one of my favorite cards in my collection. I have a three and I, I, I just, I mean it's, it's like, it's like, it's the most beautiful three I've ever seen. It's not a sharp three. It's a beautiful three. And let me, I do want to say this because my phone is sitting next to me and a second ago it was just going nuts and it was about four minutes ago that I said Chris Hoge's name. Okay. And Chris McGill hoes. And I literally had just looked at my phone. From the time I said his name to you to right now, he has sent me eight texts. Wow. Sports cards and Chris hoj, huh? You get text from everybody. Which is. What did you say? Sports cards, dad. The, the. Oh yeah, yeah. But this one I was serious about. The elf thing was the joke. That was just a shtick. It's a beautiful card. I strongly believe everybody needs this card. I am not a big multi card collector of multiple copies of a card. I fully anticipate I will have multiple copies of this card. Now we need to wrap things up. And by the way, I have a dandy also. You were saying it would be nice for us both to have the cards I had. The card that I recommended you had. It's not going to be every time. No, but for this week it was all right. We've been through a lot here. We've been through altered cards, we've been through PSA scandal, we've been through, I mean, elf, you know, shout outs and things. Final thoughts from you my friend, because we only get to do this twice a month. So I want to make the most of this and I want to give you what you think is the final word, and then I'll say something after you so that I actually get the final word. You always get the final word, Greg. And that's okay. I just. I look forward to this. I just look forward to hanging out with you and talking and, you know, we talk on the phone, but this is just extra special because it's just card focused when we discuss it. And I love it and I appreciate you being my good friend. And I just really look forward to this every other week. I totally agree. My wife teases me. She said we have three girls in the house, her and her two daughters. Lucy, who just turned 19 earlier in the week. Molly is 20, and Megan. We won't mention her name, except for. I do like mentioning a lot that she's older than me. And she says that I talk on the phone more than the three of them combined, which is probably true. But this is a. This is. I really, genuinely enjoy this with you. I really am glad that we've added this to the. To the portfolio on the sports card clubhouse. The only thing I have left for you. Is there anything you want to sing us out with? Because that was one of the stipulations that you gave me when we agreed to do this show, is you got to sing us out. So with that, my friend, you got something? You ready? Oh, I always have something. Yeah, I'm trying to switch up genres. A long, long time ago I can still remember how that music used to make me smile and if I knew if I had my chance that I could make those people dance and maybe they'd be happy for a while But February made me shiver with every paper I deliver bad news on the doorstep I couldn't take one more step I can't remember if I cried When I read about his widowed bride but something touched me deep inside the day the music died. Sa.