Is MBA Bad For The Sports Card Hobby?

Sports talk, talk talk, hobby all day. Wax packs, big polls and comps. We debate. So turn in and let the intro play. You're now rocking with the midlife car chase, the David Chase. What's up, brother? Hey, Greg Miller. Good to see you, my friend. What's new in your life? Anything exciting or entertaining or. I don't know. Yu-Gi-Oh I mean I went to a big Disney. I've been to. Remember how tired you were after the National. Right. And you needed days to decompress. I've been to three huge conventions in five weekends and it's. I just finished my last one. I went to San Diego Comic Con, the National, and this thing called D23, which is like the biggest Disney convention. The national was the smallest of the three conventions. That's how crazy this just was. Yu-Gi-Oh Yu-Gi-Oh Where do they hold D23? It's at the Anaheim Convention Center. And it's not like just a part of the convention center, like west coast card show, it's like the entire convention center. So it is huge. And it sells out within like an hour. You have to be on the ball to get tickets. I like signed up for a credit card so I could get tickets early. But my 9 year old loves Disney and, and like find scene like, like the behind the scenes of the movies and, and the animatronics of the rides and all those kind of things. It's like right up his alley. So he has so much fun that, you know, I do it for him. Yu-Gi-Oh Then that definitely sounds worth it. Making good memories with the kids is always what it's about. Yep. Well, we've got a few things to talk about today and this is going to be a topic that a lot of people are very interested in. It's a topic that a lot of people are in favor of and it's a topic that some people, it really gets them a little bit triggered and upset. But more than anything, I think it's important to be aware of what's happening in the hobby. And I think that whenever there is some sort of wave that comes through the hobby, it would, even if it's not a wave that we're excited about, I think that, that we, we all need to be aware of it and kind of understand what actually is happening. And so what we're going to be talking about today is NBA, which ironically enough is kind of, it's kind of where you and I first kind of met, I guess is you were at the west coast card show in February and you had just gotten some cards back From. In fact, I was gonna show a little clip of that and I forgot to pull it. But I was. I was working on some other stuff that I'll instead. But you were going through some cards after submission got returned, and you were kind of going like, oh, this one didn't get stickered. This one did. And that was. That was really your first arrival into the stratospheric rise that you've been on in the YouTube space. And you've continued to use MBA. And again, that's something that's polarizing to people. So what. What's. Where. Where do you want to start with this? So, Yu-Gi-Oh that was. By the. By the way, I was anti MBA leading to that. That was my first time I ever submitted that. That video that you ended up recording. So it wasn't like I've been doing it for a long time. I used to argue about MBA the same way as I hear a lot of people argue about it by saying, I don't need somebody to sticker my cards to tell me if they look nice. I have my own eyes, and I don't want them to say that they're worth more money because it has a sticker on it. So I was the same as all of those people who say those kind of things. I used to argue with the dealer that you filmed me in front of, John Irwin, where he stickers a lot of cards. And I used to just make fun of him for it. I'm like, oh my God. And like, he buy. He was buying cards for like way over the highest comps ever that had these stickers on it. And I was totally making fun of him too. But then when I saw how much he was selling them for and that there was a crazy appetite and demand for these stickered cards, it kind of convinced me. And he showed me the return on how much it cost to get it done. And then what the return was on it. And then I'm like, okay, I guess I'll do this for some of the cards at that time that I was like thinking about selling relatively soon. So that's. And then you. You just found me at the time that I ended up getting it and saw the first reveal that I ended up seeing of these NBA cards. And I was know, very disappointed in. In my. In my reveal. But it ends up, you know, I shouldn't have been disappointed. Now looking back because many people have very, very low percentages. It is hard to get these cards stickered. It is very, very difficult. And I think in that video I might have been at like 40%, which is like, relatively high for most people. I think that now because I, I've kind of figured out cards that they sticker more than others. I might be at like 50 of cards that I submit are. I end up getting a sticker on. So. And by the way, I, I, these are very high. I appeal cards that I send in. So 50 to some would be a very low number. But it's tough, it is very tough to get these dumb stickers now. Well, first off, you're calling them dumb stickers, and maybe they are, and a lot of people agree with that, and some people don't. I think actually a lot of people who even use it think they're dumb stickers, but they're, but, but people are still using them. So let me just start with this. One of the parts of this whole thing that triggers people a little bit is that there, there is a history of some questionable past of Baker, whose name is, is the, the company. The company is Mike Baker Authentication. And, and Mike Baker has worked for psa. I think he was the first grader at psa. And then he left. And then he went to a company that. I think that he was one of the founders of gai, I think. And then, you know, that had some questionable stuff. So one of the things that's interesting is that some of the history of him is, you know, some people have strong opinions on that. Does. Now, what is your take on that piece of it? And, and what, what do you know about the history of it or how much does that matter to you or any of that? I guess I have my head in the clouds a little bit, and I, I just want to admit that because I don't know, like, the full history of some of the allegations that are against him and I, and I think the bigger allegations are, are against one of the people that work with him, which is Brent Huggins, I think you say his name. He's the one that I think has a lot more ammunition against him. And, but he is part of the NBA family. These are all alleged situations. I don't. Listen, I'm not like, researching this in a crazy way, but I do know that some of the companies that they were affiliated with, like especially pwcc, which Brent ended up founding, and he is the manager at NBA right now. And they were heavily associated with altering cards. And I don't know if he gave a blind Yu-Gi-Oh to it, but many cards that were in these slabs were trimmed, colored, clean, altered, and they passed through the pwcc pipeline. And I don't know. These are alleged. I have no idea if these things are true or not. This is like what I read on these message boards kind of things, right? And there was also leaked text messages where he directed consignors to shillbid some auctions and that actually had PWCC to get kicked off of ebay because they believed that they were shill bidding. I don't know if this is all true, but this is what I read, okay. When I'm looking into this kind of stuff. So there is a questionable path past from some of these people. Now, again, I'm not interviewing them or having them babysit my kids. Okay? What. This is what the stickering does. And listen, do I want to, like, give money to people that have possibly done bad things in the hobby? I. I understand that point too, right? That that's not always a great thing to do. But again, I don't know enough information about that for me to like, really give the great opinions. I actually asked Mike Petty to give me like a lesson in all this. Cause I feel like he knows the most about. Of anyone I know about it. But we haven't had a chance to talk about it. But I get that side of it. Okay? I understand people that don't want to use services because they might not want to support somebody that they feel like has done negative things in the hobby. Okay? So we, we get that. But we also have to realize what's happening in the hobby, okay. And that if you like it or not, these stickers are around and let's. We're what? I get asked questions every day, most likely because of the video that Greg ends up filming me on, that I'm like, turned into like the sticker person, which I do get stickers on many cards, but I do it for. For reasons that. For really. Because it. It builds equity into your cards. It's a way for it to increase in value without you having to crack slabs. So I. I'm separating the company, the person, and I'm talking about just the stickers in general when we're discussing this. And I know a lot of people can't separate that, and I totally get it. Don't get stickers. Okay? But at least you're going to understand after this video, hopefully a little bit more on how it works, prices, what it brings to the value of cards, and then you can make your own decisions if it's something that you would ever do or not. Okay. I. My gosh, I feel like I could go in 18 different directions right now. Because I'm. I'm. You said your head's in the head is in the clouds. I feel like my head is in the sand. I personally don't pay attention to a lot of the rumory type things I've heard. You know, different people kind of say, oh, Baker's done this and that. I have no idea. I have literally put in zero minutes of investigation into any person. And I know there are people who are shouting from the rooftops about a variety of different people, a variety of different companies. But that, for me, is not interesting for the hobby. For me, for the. I am here to avoid drama. When people have drama with me, when people are upset with me, I'm just like, I'm here to not have that. So if I bring drama to you, I don't know what to say. I don't know how people could find me being dramatic because I stay so far out of the lanes of these drama things, to the point where it's. One of the reasons I think we should have this conversation is because all I want to learn a little bit more about what's actually happening, because it is definitely a. I. I don't know if it's a movement, but it's definitely something that is affecting the market, Whether that's good, whether that's bad. I mean. I mean, one of the things I want to try to come away with in this conversation today, one of my goals is, is NBA bad for the hobby? Is NBA good for the hobby? Is it neutral for the hobby? Is it some good, some bad? I don't know any of that. There's a million places I could go with this. I mean, you just said, you know, it's a way to increase the value of my cards without cracking slabs. And then part of me is saying, is that good? Is that bad to increase the value of a card without cracking a slab? Because there are a lot of people who buy cards, crack them out, send them into a different grading company or the same grading company. There's some people who buy raw cards. They then get them graded, and it affects the value. And then some people take cards that are graded in those slabs and submit them for stickering, and it changes the value. Is there a difference between those? I don't know. I really don't know. I don't know. Like, this is not my lane. I am not the hobby news guy. That's just not what I do. But first, let me just say something really quickly about what you just said. Of course. I just want to say I know nothing about the past either. I did like five minutes of research, research before this was on. I didn't know literally like any of these things. I just wanted to give some kind of perspective on it because I know if we're going to be talking about this subject that's going to be like a lot of comments saying like you don't know about the past and like, so I just wanted to address it in some way even though these are allegations that I have no idea what's true and what's not. But now let's talk about like what, let's talk about like what we're seeing right now with these stickers and what's happening with them. Yu-Gi-Oh and, and my quick, my quick response to that as, as we head into that section of this is, I, I, I don't know either. I don't know what to think of the past either and I don't know if it's relevant. I just know that I'm, I'm not interested in getting Beckett down by a lot of that. I know that I'm here in this hobby right now and one of the things I do when I look in cases, I see some cards in baker slabs, I see some cards in other slabs with baker stickers and it seems to be changing some things. So let's look into that. That's what I want to do right now. So I'm going to pull a couple things on the screen and I'm going to go through things for a couple of minutes. First, I do want to thank our sponsor, Auction Wire, AuctionWire Yu-Gi-Oh for being the sponsor of this episode again. Promo code SCC gets you 60 free days of Auction Wire. I don't know why anyone wouldn't use Auction Wire. It is a one stop shop to search so many different platforms to find cards that you're looking for. Every day I turn on a hobby, you know, video and there's mention about things that are happening in the non sport market and the goat market and the modern market and the vintage market. And all of us I know are in this hobby looking to search for new cards. And I don't think there's a better way to search for cards than Auction Wire. So thank you to our friends at Auction Wire. Now I've got three things I want to present to you, David, to start our conversation. I was going to break them up, but I feel like I want to throw all of the spaghetti at the wall and then see what sticks and then we'll talk. So this is a comment that came to me for a Q and A episode, specifically asking about mba. So I want to read this, and then I have a couple other things I want to go through, and then I want to talk about all of it. And however this direction goes is fine. So this question says, Greg, I've been a loyal watcher from day one, but this is my first comment. In my opinion, your history and collective work on this channel receives a 4.0 GPA that I think is in reference to my buddy Roy's comment recently. Here is my first ever question, and if you have addressed it already and I have missed it, please disregard. On the topic of NBA stickers, I have never heard anyone mention the concern I have had from day one. Here it is. If I'm not mistaken, the silver diamond sticker tells us that It's a top 15% of that assigned grade. In my hypothetical situation, let's say Today, there are 100 PSA 7s of a particular card reviewed by NBA. This means 15 cards have received a silver diamond sticker. If 100 more PSA 7 cards of that same grade are submitted over the next month, they should give out 15 more stickers. But what if 20 of those cards are considered better than the initial batch of 15 they awarded the sticker? Are they asking five of those original collectors to remove their stickers? The process and the math is just not realistic unless NBA vaults every card that enters their facility. So that's the first one. Now the second two things are shorter. So just stay with me for a second because I'll never remember that one. Yu-Gi-Oh Okay. Well, I'll bring it back up on the screen if we need to. This is from my dad. Okay. This is from my dad, and he asked me the question. I go, dad, I have no idea. I think I know the answer, but I have no idea. So I will bring it up in this discussion again whenever I have any discussion, whenever I have any conversation on any of these channels that I'm on as a guest, as a host, as a whatever. These are not the be all and end all. These are conversation starters. Everybody out there is a participant. You can participate by participating in the comments and. And sharing your thoughts and your knowledge and all this stuff. So my dad says question for next week. Having had one card that went to Mike Baker and getting a bronze sticker, what does that even mean? So that was my dad's question. So again, we got a lot of stuff to talk about here. There's one last thing I want to show you. My buddy Junk Wax Hero Mike, he has a newsletter that he does, and he did a newsletter that came out a couple of days ago as we're recording this. And he in there had a section that said, how'd this get an Yu-Gi-Oh appeal sticker? And what is on this screen is a 1949 Bowman Jackie Robinson that is autographed. It is graded authentic auto 8. Now, the card is pretty substantially off center, top to bottom, and off center left to right. I would say it's maybe something like 9010ish off center, top to bottom, and maybe something like 80, 20 side to side. I'm just approximating. And he's saying, how did this get a gold sticker from NBA? Now, all of that said there's a lot of meat that I just threw out there. So what are your initial responses to any of that? All right, first thing I want to say, I'm not a expert in on MBA. I just have submitted probably 75 cards. Okay. I think that's a pretty significant amount. So I'm coming. I don't have the answers for everything, but I can at least explain ways of the way that I see it. And I could be saying some things that are wrong. Okay. I just want to put that out there too. Couple of things. Number one, I have a feeling that that sticker on that Jackie card that you just showed is. Is. Is not real. Because I thought that NBA does not sticker authentic cards, as far as I know. And I don't think that they judge autographs. I think that they sticker the card based on the card, not the autograph. So you can look up a cert online on NBA, which I would have done if I had enough prep time. But I have a feeling that this is not a real sticker. Can't say that for sure, but that's what I've always thought, is that we can't do it as an authentic and an autographed card. They're only doing it on the card, not the autograph num. I want to get your dad's last because I think a lot of. By the way, I get questions literally every day about MBA on Instagram. The first, that long question. Okay, about that 15% thing. I think NBA made a mistake by using 15% for silver and for gold. They're saying top 5% and a half a grade above by saying percentages, it gets people wrapped up in percentages. What it means is it's great Yu-Gi-Oh appeal. Okay. And there even I'm looking at their website right now. It's Saying generally representing the top 15%. It's not saying it's extremely, you know, an accurate 15% top of the grade. Okay. It's just saying that it has great Yu-Gi-Oh appeal for the grade. A silver sticker means it's graded correctly and it looks amazing for the grade. Have they seen all 100 cards in that grade? No, but they have seen. But these hardcore Mike Baker and the people that work with him that put on the stickerings have done a lot of cards. They've seen more than probably most people that are working at M that are working at PSA now. And they've seen so many cards that they know what a good card looks in that grade. So if you start getting wrapped up into a top 15 when there's only 50 cards and are there really only seven and a half cards that have the solar silver sticker? Yu-Gi-Oh You're gonna. It's gonna make you go crazy. But there's. It's very, very rare. Which is including that one that junk wax showed that you see a Mike Baker cards that's stickered. That does not look amazing. I. I mean, it's a handful of times that that ever happens. Which is why I really believe that that one that he showed. Okay. So. Yu-Gi-Oh So let's see that. Oh, it is on there. Thank you for picking. Pulling that up. So gold. But it's saying NBA grade two. So what this is saying okay. To me is that they don't believe that it's an authentic card. They. They has a gold sticker because they are saying that this should have received a number grade. They're saying it should have received a 2 grade, not an authentic grade. So that's why a goal as well. Yep. So a gold sticker is saying that it's undergraded. So let me hop on. For people listening that aren't sure what just transpired. So what I just did is I pulled up on the screen the NBA website. I looked up as David was talking. I looked up the serial number. I confirmed that this is an actual NBA graded stickered card. It is. It has a picture of the front of the back of the card, which all of the NBA stickered cards should have. So you should be double checking the. If you see a sticker, don't just trust the sticker. You should look on the website to confirm it. Just like you should with PSA or whatever grading company you're using. It is saying. My understanding of what it is saying is along the lines as you and I just want to walk through it A little bit more. It is saying NBA is saying the third party grader in this case PSA gave this card simply an authentic grade, meaning worse than a one or a one and a half. It's simply an authentic MBA, according to their evaluation, would have given this card a two. Now, the sticker meaning that the MBA grade for this card is significantly higher than the assigned grade. So let me just ask you that what is your understanding of is an NBA sticker mean? Does it mean. Because I don't know the answer to genuinely I don't know. Does an NBA gold sticker mean that the card actually they would have graded it higher than the assigned grade or does it mean that the card has to have exceptional Yu-Gi-Oh appeal or does it mean both? Because when I look at that card, that card in my opinion doesn't necessarily have exceptional Yu-Gi-Oh appeal, although it does have exceptional Yu-Gi-Oh appeal for an authentic, but it doesn't have the exceptional Yu-Gi-Oh appeal. What we think of as exceptional Yu-Gi-Oh appeal, which is a well centered card with good color and good registration. So what does a gold sticker even mean? A gold sticker means it's undergrading, it's undergraded by at least a half a grade and it generally represents the top 5% of the current grade of the slab that it's in. So for the. What it's saying is that authentic, that authentic grade mo that is better than most authentic grades by a very high percentage, I guess, because the color, the corners, the centering is not that great. A lot of people say NBA only cares about centering, but they're not saying about this. But they are saying that it's severely undergraded. So for an authentic version of a Jackie, it's superior. Okay, I understand how it could say that on this card, even though it's not my kind of card that I'd want. But I understand that if they don't think that it's been. Now, by the way, what does even authentic mean on a PSA slab? Right? Does it mean that it's altered? Does it mean that they just graded it as authentic because they didn't want to get the grade, which you're able to do with PSA also, right? PSA doesn't give us enough information. All right, so we don't know if this was submitted as just to get it authenticated because all that somebody cared about was showing that the autograph was real. Well, NBA is saying that this is actually a 2 and it should be better than that authentic grade. So by the way, I don't I'm not saying if I agree with it or not, but that's what this is stating, isn't. Is. Is this kind of. I mean, to some of us. Okay, me, this is a little bit enlightening because I had always thought that a gold sticker meant that the card had exceptional Yu-Gi-Oh appeal. It didn't mean that the card was exceptionally undergraded. But in. In. Because I've heard people call them NBA Yu-Gi-Oh appeal stickers, is it? Not that they're Yu-Gi-Oh appeal stickers, but they're. The Baker Company feels that this card was undergraded. It's really an undergraded sticker, not an Yu-Gi-Oh appeal sticker. Is that right? Correct. It's even saying on their website for gold, it's saying it's determined worthy of a higher technical grade from mba. These are truly exceptional examples with the assigned technical grade generally representing the. Generally representing the top 5% of the population for that grade. And a diamond certification training card must achieve a 0.5 technical grade increase or higher to receive the gold diamond designation. So when someone, like, looks at a card, they're like, oh, my God, it's amazing. I can't believe it didn't get gold. It's only getting gold if it's undergraded. So if it's a spectacular three, but the three is the correct technical grade, it's always getting a silver. So a silver card is technically graded correctly, but it looks particularly nice for that grade. A gold sticker means it was undergraded by at least a half a grade. Correct. And this should be, like, so much better. Yes. That is not. I do not think that's what the average person out there think thinks that a gold or a silver sticker means. I think that people think it means that a gold means it is one of the Absolute best examples of the card in that grade. And a silver is a really nice example of that card in that grade, but the gold actually means it's undergraded by at least a half a grade. According to them. A silver means it's correctly graded, but it looks really nice for that grade. Correct. But when you. But wait, I want to say one thing about that. When you're saying, you know, I thought that it was. That it was spectacular for the grade. It really is because it's undergraded. Right. So almost always, if it's a two with a gold sticker, it's saying that it's not just nice Yu-Gi-Oh appeal, but it's also undergraded. So it usually does look spectacular. Compared to all the other twos. Right. And by the way, there's a piece of cardboard that comes with the gold sticker that shows what the technical grade is on NBA. You can look it up online with the cert that that's on there. But it also gives you a little piece of a cardboard on the back. So you can see what that's basically shows good means, right? Exactly. So it's showing you that it's a two, that it's actually two grades higher than what that authentic grade is. And it has a link there. It has a link there to what their two definition is, which in fairness might. Their grading standards are probably very similar, but most of the grading standards are a little bit different. Now, I think. I think that this is kind of intriguing or maybe a new way of looking at what the NBA thing means. I think that people have always considered them Yu-Gi-Oh appeal stickers. Now, I'm not saying that anybody should have thought that. I'm not saying that anybody is wrong who thought differently. But I think what, what I'm at least getting is some clarification. So to my dad's question, the bronze sticker means they graded this card correctly. And if you wanted to put it in an MBA slab, they would allow that. It's already been pre approved at this grade. We will put it in an MBA slab for you because we agree with this grade. Is that what bronze means? Yes, but there's more to it than that. But you can do the same thing with gold, by the way, so that authentic can go to an NBA too, because it's undergraded. So you can literally, if you wanted to submit that to NBA. Most people aren't doing that. Right, but some people might be doing that. If you get a Beckett slab, that gets a gold sticker that is a Beckett 2. And they're saying that it's an NBA 3, you might make more money on it on an NBA 3 than a Beckett 2 with a gold sticker on it. So they're saying that they would do that. Okay. When they're willing to sticker it. Now, I feel an obligation right now to read verbatim off the NBA website of what each of the certifications mean. So I want to do this real quickly. So it says MBA bronze diamond certification. This is off their website. It says equivalent MBA grade validation cards that receive a bronze diamond certification are confirmed as having an equivalent MBA grade to the previously assigned third party grade. That's what a bronze means. A silver, according to their website, their language. I'm reading it verbatim. An MBA Silver diamond certification is a top 15% superior Yu-Gi-Oh appeal. Cards that receive a Silver diamond certification possess superior Yu-Gi-Oh appeal for the assigned technical grade, generally representing the top 15% of the population for that grade. The technical grade itself agrees with MBA's grading standards. Last but not least, the MBA Gold Diamond. Not last but not least, but stay with me. The MBA Gold diamond certification says the top 5% or higher grade or comma, higher grade cards that receive a Gold diamond certification are determined worthy of a higher technical grade from mba. These are truly exceptional examples within the assigned technical grade, generally representing the top 5% of the population for that grade, A diamond Certified trading card must achieve a 0.5 technical grade increase or higher to receive the Gold diamond designation. The technical grading awarded can be viewed on the MBA report card or found through MBA's searchable certification database. And then there's an MBA Black diamond certification, which is. I've never even seen one of these. But it. It basically says it's. It's virtually Flawless and worthy of the highest possible technical. It's like the Beckett Black Label. That's what they're saying. So that's why, by the way, people ask this all the time, too. Can a PSA 10 get a gold sticker? Yes, because just like the Beckett Black Label, right? No, no, no, no, no, no. A PSA 10 can't get a gold sticker. It can. How could it get a higher grade than a 10? Because remember, these are off of NBA standards. And NBA just showed you that they have a Flawless grade the same way as Beckett. This is. This is lame, by the way. I got into an argument with them. NBA at West Coast Car show because I thought that this was incorrect, but because NBA is saying that they have a technical grade that's higher, just like Beckett has a 10, but Beckett has a Beckett has a Black Label 10. Right. So they're saying the PSA 10. Well, guess what? The NBA has a superior black label. That it's actually better than just the PSA 10. Is that, like, kind of dumb? Yes, that's. Modern cars that don't affect me in any way. But that's what their mindset is on being able to give a PSA 10 gold because there is a level above that which is Flawless. It just took us 34 minutes and 29 seconds for me to actually understand what the stickers mean. And that is my own ignorance. It's something that I've never really spent any time looking into because I'm not buying NBA stickered cards because they generally go for more than I'm willing to pay, which is where I'm hoping the conversation goes now. And I'm not a person who has submitted cards. I submitted one card for MBA evaluation at the National. It's a card that I brought with me as potential trade bait in case I needed to step up and have more card capital. I knew after a day that I wouldn't be doing that because I made a big purchase that prevented that from being an issue. And I felt like this is something that's happening in the market. I should at least go through the process to figure out what is this all about. And they said your card's overgraded. A card that I thought was really nice. They said your card's overgrade, which is fine. Like that. That's fine. So I. I am admittedly unaware of a lot of this. So let's talk about. Well, you can see, like, you need an MBA to understand mba, right? Like, by the. This has been with lots of different ways for me to figure this game out because I. Like, I didn't know that you could get a gold sticker on a 10 until I was proven incorrect at the west coast card show. Then I went and spoke to NBA about it and they explained it to me. So I get. I want to answer your dad's question because I get so many comments. We just did answer it. No, not bronze. No, I read what bronze means. You read it. But I want to explain really what that is. I'm going to tell you the bad and the good about bronze. Okay. Bronze only came into the market about two months ago. Okay. In my opinion, the reason why they brought bronze into the market is because NBA, the. The amount of increase of value a sticker gives is so much compared to what it cost. I felt like NBA needed to find a way to make more money. And this is my opinion. Okay. And for bronze, I think that there's a lot of people that don't care if their card gets a bronze sticker and there's no way to opt out of it. And the problem with that is if you're giving a card that's over $1,000, where you're paying the minimums, which we can talk about what the prices are, but you're paying 1% of the value of the card if it gets a bronze sticker. And many times it doesn't add any value to your card when you get a bronze sticker. Now, most of the time you're. Because you're thinking, I'M not going to ever cross it over to NBA one-of-one especially if it's in a PSA slab. But I'm going to give you a couple of examples of when bronze can help you. Okay? Number one, if you're not in a PSA new search slab like SGC or Beckett or cgc, many times when someone's buying one of those cards, they think that it's, that they don't believe the grade one-of-one Right? Like many times if I'm buying a Beckett, it's like, well, if I send that over to PSA, if it's a Beckett, I'm hoping that I get it too. Right. If you get a bronze sticker on a Beckett slab for a vintage card, maybe you're getting at least another opinion saying that the greatest is in the ballpark, right? You're getting a second opinion on that. Or same with the CGC vintage card. Also for old certs. I, when I see an old cert, I'm nervous when I'm buying that card thinking that it's over graded. So it's nice to get another opinion. Now again, it's not the correct opinion, right. But it's a second opinion where it's saying that, you know, this old cert that everyone thinks is a PSA7 and we all believe that PSA doesn't give out sevens anymore and that would be a four nowadays. Well, a bronze sticker could probably add value to that card because it's saying that that old cert is still relatively in the same ballpark, at least with another greater's point of view too. Okay, so it makes sense. Yu-Gi-Oh Yu-Gi-Oh it makes, it makes sense. I, I, I think, I think you just gave an argument as to how there could be some value to a bronze sticker. Okay, is, let me just ask you, I don't, I could go into some long, you know, explanation and, but in your opinion is NBA. Let's just start with this is NBA stickering and evaluation and review of third party grading. Is it good for the hobby? Yes, it's good for the hobby. But, but there are changes that should be made within this NBA hemisphere. Again, I probably have purchased in my life maybe two or three NBA cards that have an NBA sticker, but I've sold a lot. Okay. Because my niche in the hobby is trying to find these cards better pre sticker because I don't want to pay the sticker tax and, but I know how much value it brings and there's a lot. I mean we, I remember when we first did this Video we were talking about how it was like, is it only for the new collectors? It is not like people that buy NBA stickers. There are people who only buy NBA stickers and there are some huge collectors that only buy NBA stickers. I know some of us are like, what? Why would we think that way? Because everybody collects their own way. Okay. And by the way, there's a lot of people also that are so against NBA stickers that probably don't have one card in their collection that would even get an NBA sticker because they are so hard to get. They are not the normal cards that just look good. They are spectacular cards that people are paying up for one-of-one But it's an extra validation. And saying that these stickers that are so hard to get based on Yu-Gi-Oh appeal is also agreeing with you that, Yu-Gi-Oh this card is crazy amazing compared to what it's graded. So that extra validation gets a premium on the open market. And you know, the goal is to find them pre sticker, but not everybody can do that. There is like a skill to be able to find ones that are. And there are ways that I, I buy a lot of cars that I 100 know cannot be skit stickered. To me that are great Yu-Gi-Oh appeal. For example, I've now learned that back damage is never going to get a sticker. So if you have like a little bit of paper loss, you're not going to get a sticker on, on your car. And if there's like a scrapbook on there, something like that, even if it's like a retirado car that almost always has back damage, they're not going to sticker it. So some of my favorite cards in the hobby are not stickerable cards, even though they can look like a seven in front. But NBA cares about the back, by the way, the fnatic sticker doesn't care as much about the back. So people that want the sticker based on it having a messed up back, they can send it to Fanatics and get the sticker that way instead. Okay, well said. That's just, that's good, good information. I mean, some of that, I think I definitely agree with some of that. Some of that I'm, I'm not 100% sure. What's the part you disagree with the most that NBA stickering is good for the hobby. I, I, when I, you know, a lot of people say, a lot of people say, well, what's the difference between getting an NBA sticker and getting a card graded? Because what you're doing is you're adding value by getting an opinion. Well, to me, when you get a card graded, you're providing a lot more information and you are providing more of a utility than you are when you're having the third party review than you are having the first party review. I mean, you are protecting the card, you are authenticating the card, you are providing a certain amount of information about this card is a 7. So it doesn't have a wrinkle or a crease like it is. There are certain alterations that Goldin have happened or at least hypothetically Goldin have happened. So to me, getting a card graded does add value because it adds a certain peace of mind and it provides some protection for the card. I don't. Wait, stop right there. Before you move on to the next part of what you're about to say, I want to just ask you something about that part. Sure. Yes. Me. Anything you want. So do you think that there is a huge market for crack and resubmit? Yes. Is there a added service for re authenticating that card when you're doing that or by protecting the card in a better way when you do that? I think that if every grader was a drone, then the answer would be no. But because some graders have a different skill set or a different vision level or quality of evaluation, then I think that potentially cracking and resubmitting could, could get a bet, potentially, hypothetically a better evaluation of the card. But a, a gold sticker says wait, wait, don't, don't, don't keep going exactly what you just said right there. So is somebody only cracking and resubmit to add value to the card when they're doing it that way? It depends on what the original condition or situation of that card was. I mean, if the card is deemed authentic altered and they crack and resubmit to deem that it's not authentic altered, that then that's different than if you think the card is a nine and it got a six so you cracked it to try again and getting it a nine. All of this is a result of inconsistencies, which is a big part of the problem. And I do think that a review of the third party evaluation is taking another look at. Is this inconsistency? Is this an inconsistency? Now let me, I, I, I have to say also, but you don't. Let me, wait, wait, let me finish this, let me finish this one thought and then you can ask me whatever you want. Okay. When I say I'm not sure if it's good for the. Because you said, yes, it's good for the hobby. You said, what part do I agree with? And I said, I'm not sure if it's good for the hobby. I'm not saying it's bad for the hobby. I'm not saying it's good for the hobby. I don't know. What I'm saying is I'm not sure I would agree that it's good for the hobby. I don't, I don't think. I don't. What I want. What I want is less power for all of these random people that we're sending our cards off to. And right now they have all the power. They are the king and we are the peasant and we wait for them to bless us to with what we are allowed to think and do and what our stuff is worth and how nice it is. They have all the power. So what these stickers are doing is it's. It is maybe a little bit of a double check on the one person who has been yielded all the power in the hobby, which I could see that maybe having some benefit. But what I ultimately want want is I ultimately want us to take the power back and look at a card for what we like about the card. And there are so many cards people have gotten back from grading, they see it and they go, man, I don't really like this card anymore. Got a four. I thought this card was going to get an eight, and I just don't even want it anymore. That's not you should we. We can't be in a place where somebody else saying our card is a four instead of an eight make us like the card less. So that's what I want. I want when I look at a card like my Sandy Koufax that I submitted to NBA, there are absolutely flaws with the car. That's why I got a 4.5. NBA says, nope, it's a 4. But the flaws that P.S. or that SGC saw that deemed it a 4.5 and the flaws that NBA saw it to be a 4 and be actually overgraded are flaws that don't bother me. So I should be thrilled with this card that I like the looks of because the flaws that it has are flaws that don't bug me. Where there are other cards that have flaws that do bug me. That means I am holding the power of whether or not I like the card, not whether a sticker granted me the power of yes, this is one worthy of you and this grade by sgc. Yes, it's a worthy card. I see past certain flaws and that's where I want us to be. And every time we send money to these other people who are deeming our card either good or garbage is. It's frustrating that we are letting them control how much we like the card. So, again, I'm not saying it's good for the hobby. I'm not saying it's bad for the hobby. I just. I want us to see cards that we like and us like them regardless of the number or regardless of whether it's sticker worthy. That's it. Let me ask you. You said like, 17 different things, so I can't even answer each one of them because you never let me speak. Because it's like you go, I mean, like, how long? I can't address 17 things, Greg, at the end of a 15 minutes soliloquy. All right. But it was about four minutes. Okay, sorry. Hamlet said, why so brief? I mean, let me think of different parts to this. Let me. What was the first thing to stop you at? I don't know. Let me throw out one last thing and you can say whatever you want. So much to this that, like, I wanted. Is it possible that NBA stickering is good for the hobby? But also, let me ask you this. Is it. Is it possible that MBA stickering is bad for the hobby? Yu-Gi-Oh I don't have, like, I don't. I don't think that strongly that. I think it's the greatest thing in the world. Okay. It's a version of what you said where I just think that grading companies have too much power. And this gives us another option on doing things differently. To still evaluate your cards and get a third party to look at it. That is different than me and you taking a look at a card. Okay. This is what I like about the stickers, is that it takes a little of the power away from the original grading company. It makes their voice a little less important. Okay? So as I was getting that before when I was asking you about cracking and resubmit, the person that cracked that authentic card that thinks that they're getting a grade, they are not doing that for added protection. They are doing that to add value. Okay? They are. Anybody that is cracking and resubmitting is adding value. Checker. They're never like, you know what? I think my card's over graded. Let me see if I'm going to get a four instead. Okay. It's only because it's worth more money, and that's if it's authentic or not. The Reason why you don't want it to say authentic is because you think it's worth more if it gets a number grade. Okay, so this is a way for you to be able to get an opinion on supposedly unbiased opinion of somebody that supposedly has done a lot of cards that is looked at without you having to run through the six month turnaround of PSA or SGC right now and having to crack it, submit it and have them look at your card again. You can now do that when you go to a card show and have it done in two hours and for them to validate the thing that's in your mind. You know what? I think my card isn't authentic. I want to see if they believe it too. Then they'll tell you. Or I think that my card is undergraded or my card I think has like the most amazing Yu-Gi-Oh appeal and I think it's perfect for the great and I think it's one of the best ones there are. It's just a way for you to be able to get instant gratification over a weekend at a card show or two hours later in certain circumstances. That's it. Okay. I'm not saying it's like, oh my God, we've now the hobby has changed based on us being able to get stickering, but it's sometimes nice to get validation on certain attributes on a card. And it's not for every card. Right. And, and your card, right, Your, your Kofax. I'm making up a story I don't know about with your card or not, but let's just say for your card, let's say it had a small wrinkle on the back. Okay. And that it just technically was a little bit lower in a grade, well, then they can't give it the sticker. That doesn't mean it's not a craz I appeal card. It just means it's a little undergraded from what one grader decided to say at that time. And by the way, is this MBA grader correct? No. Right. Because every grader, because we're not using Yu-Gi-Oh there, there's just different opinions and that's why Yu-Gi-Oh eventually has to take over and not have a 10 point scale, have to have like a thousand point scale on figuring out really what the flaws are of a card. And, and then we don't have to deal with any of this kind of stuff anymore. But right now, when you can submit a card to PSA and it could determine thousands and thousands of dollars based on if the grader had a good day or if they stayed up last night and partied. And we have no idea. And if we submit it five times, there's a chance we get five different grades. And one of those grades is going to be possibly $10,000 more of value than the others. I want a different solution. And that's what this is. It's not the best solution. It's just another solution. It takes. It goes back to taking a little bit of the power away from the all powerful overlords that are the grading companies. And I. So let me. I'm going to pull up. That's by the way, is the card that is in question. And the evaluation that they gave me was that. Not that there was a wrinkle, it's at the centering from here to here, meaning top to bottom, but as the card sits horizontally side to side was off and that the corners all were not good enough. So that was, that was what they said. The reason the card didn't was only a four. So they would grade this card a four. Which. And we both know that. That centering. That centering would be okay on a seven. So it has to be. Then why did they list centering as the reason it didn't. It was only worthy of a 4? Because I think it's a combination, right? I don't think that it's one thing or the other. I think it's a combination of not being perfect. Centering with the corners is my guess, right? I don't, I don't know that to be an answer. But like, I think if the card looked like that and the corners were perfect, it would have ended up getting a gold sticker. Right? So do. Where do we disagree? Like you, I feel like you seem frustrated right now. What do you. What. What did I do to upset you? I love you. I have no frustration to about you at all. What are you frustrated about? You seem frustrate. You're not frustrated. I'm not frustrated. I wanted to address some of those things when you were talking, but I, I wish I, I knew each one of those things that you were saying. But I, I just, I think that these sticker cards, I mean, we also didn't talk about what kind of value it adds. Let's do it. I don't care if it goes an hour and 15 minutes. It goes an hour and 15 minutes. I want to talk about what you want to talk about. Okay. You know, if these cards were bringing 5% of value to the cards, nobody would be doing it. Right? But because when you get a card stickered and it gets a silver, it on average goes up like 10 to 15%. Right? On a, on a, on an average kind of card. But if you end up doing this on an epic card on like a grail card like the 48 Leaf Jackie or like a Gouty Ruth, it can be much higher. Because how there's so many people that want nice versions of those cards and they're hard to find and they're willing to pay even a stronger premium. And that sticker, which not all. You don't always need a sticker to get that premium, but it's a lot easier for a dealer to charge the higher dollar amount when there is a sticker on the card because it gives them a reason to say it has a sticker. It's not just me that's saying that it looks good. There's a third party that agrees with it too. Should it raise the value that much, like the card is the same card? Thanks, Mike. My card is nice looking, like, great. Why should that add 10, 15, 20, 30% on a, on a silver sticker? I don't even know what it does, but why it should it add that much value just because somebody said, you're right, it does look good. I understand why. I mean, for me, again, I do not want to buy cards with stickers. So I guess, you know, it. I guess I could say it shouldn't in certain ways, but. But I also know how hard it is to get a sticker on a card. So I know that it is the top of the top cards in those grades that are getting these kind of stickers. So it's just like a little chef's kiss on saying that you have one of the best looking cards of that grade, and that's telling you that it really has that. It really gives the validation of having that. Some people like that validation. Some people need that validation. Not saying if it's good or bad. You know, it's like saying if somebody has a raw card or a card that's authentic, that PSA just graded as authentic because you only asked them to grade it authentic. Okay, but you think it's a seven. Why? Why? It's the same card. Why does it need to say a seven? What? Because you, you feel better about yourself. If it says a seven, it's the same card. Authentic. Well, I think it's a little different because a seven, a seven says that it has certain qualities about it and a sticker does not. It does not talk about actual Qualities of the card it just talks about in their opinion, it's nice looking. But it's so why you need a third party opinion to tell you what, what's good about the card? Why can't you use your own eyes? Well, maybe some people, maybe some people can't see wrinkles very well or they can't see indentions very well. But, but if. Or can't see Yu-Gi-Oh appeal as well either. I mean, I'm, I mean, I understand what you're trying to say, but. But what about the person who doesn't need validation? Like when I met draw cards, when I met my wife, I knew my wife was beautiful. If my friends did not say, dude, she's good looking, I wouldn't care. It wouldn't affect me. I don't need them to say, dude, she's really hot for me to know she's really hot. So when I see her, I know I like her. I know I like the way she looks. Mike Baker is just my buddy, my wingman who says, Yu-Gi-Oh dude, good looking. Like, I don't need somebody to tell me. That would be an argument that a lot of people would say, so what's the response to that? I think that not everybody needs that. I agree. Right. It. Not everybody needs to have their cards graded either. Right. Not everybody needs to send their cards to PSA instead of cgc. Yu-Gi-Oh but there's reasons why people are doing that. They're sending it to PSA even though they can go get a MBA slab that can take 24 hours. That's going to protect it and give it a grade also. But still, most people would rather have a PSA slab because it adds value to your card or they want uniformity. Right. But whatever the reason is, there's reasons behind the logical response. Right? And this is one of those items that's like that, you know? Now I don't think most people would say that PSA is terrible for the hobby, but there's aspects of PSA that you don't like. Right. And that's the same thing with mba. I think that there's a place for it, but I understand. Not that not every card needs to be submitted to them and it's not for every person that's trying to buy and it's not for everybody that's trying to sell, but there is a niche in the hobby and, and you kind of have to figure out where you are in the hobby and find different ways for you to, to, to collect. And one of the ways that I collect that's different than a lot of my peers is that I am sometimes the same. There are some people that go and they buy collections and they, and they go and they set up at their local card show and they sell cards at a local card show with the collection, and they use that money to buy to, for the hobby for them, what they're buying. I do a version of that, but it's, but I've, I've tweaked it versus what I, the hand that I'm dealt. Okay. And I've kind of figured out a lane that, and I'm not saying this is the right lane, but I, I, I'm, I'm playing the game of understanding how to do this. And I'm able to go and find a card where I think that it looks great for the grade. I'm probably 50% of the time correct that it will receive a sticker, and then I'm able to go and sell it to a dealer for more money than what I paid for it. And I'm using that to pay for my hobby dollars. I don't see that as a crazy different scenario than somebody that is buying on eBay 20 different cards and then selling them at the card show a month later for a profit. Right. I found a way to be able to do it by using these stickers. Now, is having a sticker on the card changing any attrib on the card? No, but obviously people are paying higher amounts for these stickered cards. If you don't like that, then never buy a card with a sticker and it one-of-one affect you in that way. Okay. I mean. Yu-Gi-Oh what, what about I don't care what you do. I don't care if you go buy a card and you get it stickered or you get it slabbed, or you crack it and you submit it again, and then you submit it again and then you submit. I don't care. It doesn't matter to me. It doesn't matter to me if you buy raw, if you use psa, if you use sgc. But I feel, I feel like there are some people who do care. In fact, I feel like there are some people that would say if you send a psa, you're part of the problem. Some people would say if you send a Mike Baker, you suck. If they. People. There are people out there that do care what other people are doing. And, and I think there could be a lot of reasons why that is. Part of it is they think it might negatively affect them. Part of it might be because they think that you are potentially supporting a company that they think is not good for the. The greater hobby. There. There could be a ton of reasons why people feel that way. I don't care if you buy cards and flip them. I don't care if you buy cards and grade them. I don't care if you buy cards and get them autographed and. And sell them. I don't care if you get them stickered. I don't care if you buy sticker cards and rip the sticker off. I don't care. But a lot of people care. Why do they care? That's a good question. I think they mostly care. The people that care the most of these kind of scenarios. Are these what Jeremy would say? Jeremy Lee, on his hobby spectrum are the precisionists, I think, right. The people who are not really selling their cards ever and people that are only there to collect and that they don't want cards to increase in value the way that they are. And I understand that. Okay. It's going to be more expensive for them to buy cards that they want. Correct. And I think, should I be sabotaging My House so that it doesn't go up in value? Because it might make the guy who wants to buy a house on my street not be able to buy a house? Because I planted some nice plants and I fertilized my lawn and now My House is worth more. So now the house is more expensive. So I just let the lawn die so that I don't raise the price for him. I mean, I agree with you. I think that you kind of have to learn how to adapt. But I'm just telling you, these are the things that I hear. Another thing that I hear sometimes from people, which we can also kind of, we can discuss, is it's increasing all comps. These sticker cards, right? That these sticker cards, when they. Somebody. When somebody sells for a high dollar amount, then people that do not know how to read comps very well are sometimes then just looking at the last sale, not taking a look at the photo and seeing that the last card sold for $3,000, even though the one before that went for $2,200. And now they think that the average card that is in that same grade is now worth $3,000. That does sometimes happen, but that's people that don't really understand comps. Right. Because whose fault is that? So, okay, let's just go down that road for a second. Okay, so there's a card that's in a four and it's an exceptional four. And it got a gold sticker four. And that card then sells for $6,000. And they normally sell for $4,000. So then the next guy goes to a card show, he sees the card in a four, but it's off center and there's some issues on. There's some scuffing on the face, but he got a four. And he says, well, the last one sold for $6,000. So I guess I have to, you know, pay the $6,000. And then the next guy comes along and he goes, well, the last two sold for $6,000. One of them had a sticker, one of them had scuffing. I guess it's a $6,000 card now. So then he pays $6,000. I, that doesn't mean that I have to buy one for $6,000 though, right? If, if, if the card is selling for $6,000 and I don't think it's a $6,000 card, can't I just go, well, I'm not going to buy that card. Can't I do that? That's how I would be in that situation. But that's the argument, though, that people, like, say on these talking heads, here's what I want. Here's what I want. Honestly and honestly, like, and I'm being, I'm being sincere when I say this. Like, again, I don't care. If you don't want to pay the price that the card is being asked for, then don't pay it. And I understand why it would be frustrating if a couple of people who don't understand that not all fours are created equal blindly just follow whatever it says. And therefore, now the card is routinely selling at the higher price. That is annoying. But there might also be cards in your own collection that have gone up in value by more than they should have because that happened to cards that you own. So you potentially are benefiting from that to a certain extent. So then you get to benefit from it sometimes, but then you get to complain. I, I want to know from people that are hearing this, because there are people right now at this point, there, there are phones and TVs that have been smashed to pieces. I'm certain of it. We apologize. Tell me, tell me down below if you are against it. Why are you against it? I want to know if you are for it. Tell me why you're for it. I want to know, and the only thing I ask is that people are at least respectful about it. And if, if a person down below goes, I'm all about it, don't attack them. And if a person says they think it's a criminal activity, don't attack them. I just want to hear. I want people to feel like they can. Well, I mean, if Roy is listening, I'm done at this point. I just want to know what people think. I'm. I'm curious. That's the whole point of this thing. I'm asking questions. Are there. My main takeaway right now, this is my main takeaway so far in this whole conversation is I think you can make an argument that a silver sticker is. Is the only sticker that actually tells you it has high Yu-Gi-Oh appeal. The gold sticker tells you that it's undergraded according to their standards. The bronze sticker tells you that it's properly graded to their standards. But a silver sticker says, this is a really nice looking card. So I feel like my biggest takeaway so far is if I see a gold stickered card and I see a silver stickered card. The silver sticker is more about Yu-Gi-Oh appeal than grade. And the, the. The gold and the bronze are more about validating or incentive or, or, you know, adding. Adding more grade to it than is currently there. More than it is about Yu-Gi-Oh appeal. That's for me. We've been talking for an hour and 10 minutes. My wife is probably going, oh, my gosh, are they still going in there? You know, are they still talking? That. But that's my biggest takeaway and. And that's where I'm at. So. Okay, so you were frustrated earlier. I think. I think I want to make sure that you've been able to cover everything you want to cover. So before we talk about what cards would we recommend to each other, I want to make sure that you've gotten an opportunity to talk about every topic that you wanted to talk about. Yu-Gi-Oh I have. I think that. I think that, you know, the more I think about NBA and by the way, MBA has also had a lot of changes. Okay. When I first started doing this. When do we meet Greg? February. Yu-Gi-Oh six months ago. Man, it's crazy. Greg and I are like such good friends now. And six months ago, we didn't know each other. I proposed to my wife before six months. Just for the record, that's the way I wonder. No wonder. The way I work so quickly. Yes. But what the differences of, like, NBA even, like, you know, now having bronze, which you have to pay for, and it used to be where you really, like, spoke to Mike Baker about everything, and now it's very hard to get a hold of them and used to be able to show a card and say, do you think that there's a chance that this could get stickered? And they would tell you that before you even submit it. It's now becoming more of a business. It has to, because it's grown into what they are. And you have to kind of treat it like a business. When you are going there to sticker cards, if it makes you feel bad if your card does not get stickered, I would suggest you not do it because you are going to feel bad most of the time. Do you feel bad about your Kofax that didn't get sticker? Do you feel less about that card in any way? I feel like it was an Yu-Gi-Oh opening moment for me because what it made me, my takeaway from that experience was, Yu-Gi-Oh there are definitely some flaws that my Yu-Gi-Oh does not care about that a grader does care about. And I, I am totally cool with my card being evaluated as a four instead of a four and a half like it had on the slab. But it made me go, this is, this is kind of cool that there are things that hurt a card's grade that bother me. Zero. Because when I look at that card, I go, man, this thing is sweet. And if that means that it's a low grade and I can see a card that looks like that and just think it's stunning, that's actually a good thing for me. As a collector, I feel the same way. And that's my game that I Blue Ice I'm trying to find the lowest cards possible that I can accept. Accept the reason for the technical grade. And I love those kind of cards. And a lot of those cards cannot get stickered. Just like what I said. My fate, I would say. I was just talking about this on the hangover that went out a couple days ago that one of my favorite cards that I own is a card that looks like a seven on the front with a. A glue stain on the back. And that card would 100 not get stickered. And it's for me, one of the best Yu-Gi-Oh appeal cards I have in my entire collection. And it's one that cannot get stickered. So is there a flaw in the stickering system too? Yes. Okay, well, there's a flaw for you. There's a flaw for you. It doesn't mean there's a flaw in the process. It's for what you like. There is a blind spot in what is deemed worthy of a sticker for you. And, and that. And I want to wrap this up, and then we can quickly do our little promotion of what card we would recommend to others in the hobby. My. The way I want to wrap this up and then you can share your final thoughts is I genuinely am so okay. If people want to get their card stickered and you share some perspective of what that would. Why that would be helpful, why that would be useful. Some people are willing to pay a fairly significant amount of money above other cards in that grade for a card that has a sticker because of what that does for them. But that doesn't mean that if I am not into stickers or I am not into this process, that doesn't mean that I am right and they are wrong. I, I do not care at all who is or isn't into stickers. I don't think you're wrong if you like them. I don't think you're right or wrong if you don't like them. I love the variety. I love the options. I love we still have multiple grading companies. I love that if you like stickers, you can do it. I love that if you don't like stickers, you don't to have. Have to do it. I like that if you don't like grading, you don't have to participate in grading. That's the part of the hobby that makes it interesting. I like the 49ers. A lot of people don't. And if you don't like the 49ers, that actually makes it more fun for me because it means we all have different lanes to drive in. So I don't care what people do. I could see an appeal to stickers. I could, I could see an irritation to stickers, but I don't think that it needs to be a divisive issue that makes us get mad at each other or you're wrong. You're an idiot. You suck if you think this because I think something different. That's just not the way I live. That's just not the way I go about it. And that's not why I'm in this hobby. I'm in this hobby to get away from thinking like that. So that's my final thought. Your final thought. And then we'll look at a couple of cards. I, I mean, you, you summed it up perfectly. I, I just, I don't. Thank you. I don't feel as pat. I don't feel as passionate as I probably made it sound like I am about excitable guys. I, I, Yu-Gi-Oh And I try to show a little bit of passion and emotion when I'm talking in general because it makes it a little bit more fun and entertaining. But, you know, I do see why people would not like them, and I get it. And. But you have to kind of play the game versus the rules that are in place. And this is one of those ways that you can play the game to try to sell your cards for a higher price. That's it. All right, let's look at a couple of cards. You, my friend David Theodore Chase says I got that name. Yu-Gi-Oh Like, if I'm Alvin, you're Theodore, right? No. Why are you Alvin? Of course I'm Alvin. I'm Mickey Mouse. You're Donald Duck. I would have. I would have assumed you. Oh, so I'm theater. I'm the fat one. Okay. I was thinking you're Simon. All right. David Chase recommends that a car. Again, this is something we do at the end of every episode. Before David singers this out, he recommends a card that he feels people should all have in their collection, and he's going to tell us why. And that card, this bi weekly episode, is the 1961 Flir Wilt Chamberlain rookie card. Tell us about it. I'm correct. You don't have this card, right? Correct. Yu-Gi-Oh I think that my card you have. But I'm still gonna do it one-of-one so. Go ahead. Shows you don't know my collection very well. So. Man, when I ended up getting back into the hobby and I wrote out my list of cards that I really needed to buy to be able to curate my collection in a. In the right way. The word again. Do what? Curate. Curate. Curate. Curate. Go ahead. Am I right by saying curate? Correct. Go ahead. Okay, thank you. I was just. I was just helping Roy there. Go ahead. When I was doing that and I wrote out a list, the cards, when I started looking at prices versus who they are in the hobby, I could not believe vintage basketball cards, how much they lagged compared to the other sports. Football also. But basketball is such a global phenomenon right now with. In today's world, in today's market, that it just shocked me. And the craziest thing is, during this huge upswing of how much card prices have increased, this card has barely increased. It was way higher during the COVID bubble, it decreased to around the levels that they are now. And since like 2022, it's around the same price in a low grade for this card. I'm not talking about nines. I don't know what those are. But like twos and threes and ones. They're all relatively similar pricing. And to me, to have a basketball collection who's somebody who doesn't need a hundred cards of basketball. But like for me, there's like nine vintage basketball cards that are the ones that were the ones that I needed. It was the 48 micah, which I just finished, so now I don't need any of them. But then it was the Topps, Russell and Koozie, the 61, this Y, the Chamberlain, Weston, Robertson, the 69 Kareem Abdul Jabbar, the 72 Dr. J, and the 1980 Bird and Magic. That's it. I didn't feel like I needed anymore. Yes, I could for modern, go for Kobe, LeBron, Curry and Jordan. But those were kind of more modern cards. These are the vintage versions of cards that I wanted. And this is the pinnacle of cards. And for it to be a couple of thousand dollars to be able to get Wilt Chamberlain 1961 rookie card is crazy to me. If you put him to where he would be in the baseball status and for how many cards there are of this set, I just cannot believe how cheap it is still. And with me knowing that you do have a very well rounded collection, I'm surprised it's not higher on your list. I like it. Hold on, I'm getting a phone call. It's Pete Maravich. He said, what the hell, David? He's one step below the Maravich rookie is another tall boy. So that means you're gonna have to have another tall boy in your collection. Besides. Well, you had the Kareem, so. Okay, now Maravich is one too. Okay, so you're not done then? I guess I could. Marovich has been on my, my list, but for you to find a, a perfectly centered Maravich that has that green, that it's a bright green card and I don't want fish eyes in it and stuff I have made. I have maybe found one of those cards in like a medium grade that I have liked and it was for so overpriced I decided to pass on it. I don't love the card. I like the card. And for me it's one step below all the other ones that I mentioned. Okay? So well done, my friend. Fantastic. I want it. I've wanted it for a while. Great. Now, I do have to say that when we started this, it was originally intended that I was pitching a card. That's all you're saying about the Chamberlain? There's nothing else. I mean, you're right, you're. We want more than. You're right. I mean when you get in an argument with your wife isn't the only thing you want to hear is you're right. I just. No, I want to know over these years of collecting, why is this a card that you have not gone after? It's a card that I have wanted. It is a card that I have looked for. But the right place at the right time at the right place. Price hasn't happened yet, but I am certain it will eventually land in my collection. Okay. I don't have a good reason. There's a lot of stuff that I want that I don't have. A lot of stuff that I want that I don't have. And that's one of them for sure. What's your outlook on the future? Because we went over an hour one-of-one But like for this to be like a. Megan is just. She's in the other room just shaking. My Lord. I'm sorry, Megan, I'm going to write you apology letter when this is over. But like for. For it to be a PSA2 that's around $2,000. It's been the same for four years while the hobby has just skyrocketed. Do you think that this is something that's going to lag? Do you think that it's always just going to be the, the. The younger stepchild of the baseball or do you think that there is a chance that it could have an explosion in the future? What's your thought on that? I. Whenever I hear. Let me put it off the screen here for a second so we can just look at. I can look you in the eyes. When, whenever I hear people talk about their all time starting five and I hear you know like all time greats like Larry Bird or Magic Johnson or Charles Barkley. Some of these guys talk about their all time starting five. I have never understood why Wilt Chamberlain isn't in more starting fives. I have not understood it. It doesn't make any sense to me as dominating. I mean he was Shaq dominating, but he was a better shooter. And I know that the rules changed, but does that mean Bob Gibson wasn't good because rules changed because of him? I mean when they change a rule in a game because of your dominance, doesn't that say something about how dominating you were? And for some reason he is. I hear more people say Kareem as their center in their starting all time five than Wilt Chamberlain. I don't get it. So that is the reason the card isn't more valuable for some reason. But to me, Wilt Chamberlain is. He's in my starting five. I don't understand it. I think that he, for some reason, is overlooked by some, and I think they might say, well, he was so much bigger than everybody before bigs were that big. But that's not a. That's like saying, you know, Babe Ruth was stronger when people weren't that strong. Like that. Just. That's not a good response. I don't understand the Wilt Chamberlain thing. The guy was legendary on and off the court, right? Oh, Yu-Gi-Oh Okay, so you. You play by the rules in the game, and the rules originally were that you wanted to take a card in your collection and patch auto to me. And why it should be in my collection. I, over the months of us doing this, I have kind of gone with a slightly different point of view, which is a card I have in my collection that I feel others should all have in their collection, not necessarily just you. Okay, so I cheat a little bit because I know that you have this card in your collection. I know that you do, but I think it's a card that belongs in everyone collection. So do you want me to scrap it and come up with something new because I know you have it, or do you want me to explain why this card belongs in people's collections? I mean, you know, you're just not playing the game the correct way, but do your own thing. I mean, we all know you're a renegade, Greg, you know, well, I mean. I mean, such a bad boy. All right, I constantly am breaking rules in this world. I mean, on the way to work today, I did drive two miles an hour over the speed limit. There was a time in Strongsville when I tried to get Greg to walk across the street when it was a green light and he didn't want to because it had the red hand. Yu-Gi-Oh The crosswalk didn't have the green walking person. It had the hand, and it was a green light, but the hand was there. You can't cross. That's not. This was the busiest street. And it was like it just turned, but because we didn't press the button, he wouldn't walk. And I go, what? He goes, those are the rules, David. And I go, oh, my God, Mr. Rogers. And I think that I. I think I made you cross the street. Did you not? I forgot what was the outcome of that, and I was kind of uncomfortable. So. All right, here is the card that I think everybody needs in their collection. Ready for it? That's you ready? I'm ready. Do you think you know what it is Megatron, the Donruss, Jose Canseco Rated Rookie. See, we live in this world right now of chase cards. It's all about the chase card. When. As soon as the, you know, the. The. The new patch card of whichever NBA guy or whoever is pulled, it changes the value of what is in the. What. What boxes are still out there unopened. It's. It's. It's all about the chase. And the chase card of all chase cards during the junk wax era was the Donruss, Jose Canseco. It was the card that everybody had to have because this guy was it. And I mean, the look of the. Have I Beckett this card before? I feel like I've even Beckett it because it's so obvious that everybody has to have this card. The Rated Rookie logo. Is there anything. If you were to say what is the most iconic thing in all of sports cards? I would say, as a person who grew up in the 80s, it's the Rated Rookie logo. I see the Rated Rookie logo, and it just. I have a good feeling. It's like. It's just. The Rated Rookie logo is so cool. This card. What's the next card you think of with that Rated Rookie logo? There's two. What? There are two. One for me is the Donruss Fred McGriff, because I had one of those as a kid. The other is the Donruss Mark McGuire. Those are the Rated Rookie That comes straight to mine. Those cards. This is the card that was the first chase card. And I know a lot of people go, no, no, it was this great for you. It was. This was the card that everybody had to have. Nobody could afford it. It was unbelievable. I have, like four or five copies of this card. One of them, I got signed by Jose at a show, and I talked to Jose, and he's a wild man. And I. There's something about Jose that I just think is like. I don't. I know a lot of people hate Jose Canseco. I think Jose Canseco is freaking hilarious. I think I like Jose Canseco so much. I've always. I hated Jose Canseco in 1987 and 88 because I lived in Northern California and I was more of a Giants guy than an A's guy, so I hated him. But since then, you had to really hit him in 89 during the World Series. Well, okay, 87, 88, and 89. I think Jose Canseco is hilarious when he says. When he tweets every year, Merry Christmas, everyone except A rod. I think that is the Finest thing ever. This is a card we all need, because this card, this card started the first sports card hobby. Boom. This card started it. And as a relic of what that. What the fallout of that junk wax era is that this card started. We all have to have this card in our collection. Did you have this card during that time? I Goldin afford this card. This card was a hundred dollars. The Labor Day weekend Moscone center show in 1988, it was a hundred dollars, which is like a hundred thousand dollars now. I mean, it was so far out of reach, like, my most valuable card was probably two bucks. This thing was a hundred. I Goldin believe. I got to tell you a quick story about this card. And then we got to wrap this up, because literally my wife is writing up. Yu-Gi-Oh I can't even make a comment back about it. Okay? So. No, no, no, you can. You can. But I do want to tell a quick story because I think it's hilarious. Quick. I grew up in this little town called Vacaville, California. And it. the time, when I grew up, it had like 30, 000 people in it. And the second card shop in town was called the Boys of Summer. Okay. I talk about it in my book, which, if you haven't read my book, then whatever. Why are you still listening at an hour and 31 minutes? But I talk about this card shop. Thank you, David. The Boys of Summer. And I went into this card shop. It would have been about 2003. I'm at a college. I am a grown adult, and I'm back in town and I'm having dinner. I mean, I got. I got married in 2003, and I was back in town with my dad and my brother and I believe our. Our wives. And we were going out to dinner at this Italian restaurant right down right next to the Boys of Summer, which was still there, you know, 20 years later. And we walk in, and he had a section of cards in the case. Like, literally, I would have figured they were covered in a layer of dust. And one of the cards is the 86 Donner Sose Canseco. Okay? And I. On the card, he had, like, $80 on it. Okay, $80. Now, this is. This card was again, this Moscone center, the big exposition center in San Francisco. In 88. This card was a hundred dollars. He had, like, $80 on the card. Now, if I would have looked at what this card was worth in 2003, it was like 12 bucks. Okay? Ungraded he has 80 bucks on it. Okay? This guy has 80 bucks on it. And I. And it's the same guy who's been working in the shop. He's the only guy that's ever worked there. Okay? And I said, the conseco. What's the best you could do on it? He says, 80 bucks. I said, what? It's like a 12 card. He goes, I've got 80 bucks in it. Like, it's been sitting in a case for 30 years. 30 years. 20 years, whatever it was. 20 years it's been sitting in a case. It's covered in a layer of dust, and you aren't willing to move off of 80 bucks. And he goes, I bought that card at the Moscone center card show in 1988 for 80 bucks. And I gotta get 80 bucks out of. Was the most insane thing I'd ever heard. And I go, all right, awesome. My brother looks in the case and another. She bought it for 80 bucks. A couple. A couple of cards down from it was the Topps traded Daryl Strawberry card, which was. My brother was a Daryl Strawberry fan. It was my Darren brother's dream card. That card, he had like 10 bucks on it. Okay. My brother goes, I'll take the Darryl Strawberry. My brother gives him the 10 bucks, gets the Daryl Strawberry. We walk over to dinner, we're laughing about this thing. And my brother goes, I just bought my all time dream card at the card shop. We grew up as a kid. It was. I just got the chills. It was so funny, so cool. But, oh, my gosh, the boys. I have to. That's. That's amazing. But one question, then I have to talk about Kasego, but when you end up winning that lottery thing of. And ended up buying your Roger Clemens rookie. Yu-Gi-Oh How much was that Clemens at the time? $80 on the nose. So you could have bought that 86 Canseco instead of that Clemens. But. But Clemens was the dream car card. My dream card was the Fleer Clemens. And the only way I could possibly get that card is what happened that day. And if I had my choice between the chase card and my dream card, I'm going with my dream card. And I got. Exactly. But. Yu-Gi-Oh So I was just thinking in my mind, because that card would have been the pinnacle of cards at that time. So for me, I was such a Jose Canseco fan that it was my life. And I'm not exaggerating when I say that Jose Canseco and Mark McGuire were my life between 86 to 1990. And I wore only Jose Canseco shirts, shorts, hat, posters in my room. Jose Canseco was my God, okay? And I loved everything about him. And I would go to card shows and stuff, and I would just worship that Donruss Rated Rookie card. And on my 10th birthday, for my birthday present, my parents gave me a big poster that was the Bash Brothers that looked like the Blues Brothers, but it was the Bash Brothers. And there was a small little package that was behind it, and it was the Jose Canseco Rated Rookie. And I got that card and it was like tears in my eyes. I put it in a screw down case, like one that was like three inches thick. And I just loved that card. I would sometimes display it. I would take it out, show it to my friends, and it was a car that I loved more than anything. And then Jose Canseco got traded. I got very angry at the A's and all of my friends also, by the way, even though, like, he came out with steroids later on, they used to chant at Angel Stadium. Steroid, steroid. While Jose Canseco was batting during that time. So everybody knew he was on steroids during that time also. And when he had a ball bounce off of his head, which is one of the Finest moments in baseball history, people made fun of me because they knew I was such a Conseco fan. And later on, I still have that card. Jose Canseco very recently was at a card show, brought my son, had him sign it. And that's still my childhood favorite card that I gave to my son now. So I love that card. That's. Yu-Gi-Oh that's awesome. The hardest I've ever seen my dad laugh in his entire life is when that ball bounced off of Jose's head for a home run. Like, I've never seen my dad laugh. I mean, for. He just howled for 10 minutes at that. I mean, what. What a cherry on top of his career that that happened because he was, like, such, like, everyone hated him at that point. You know, I did not hate him. I thought I still loved him, too. I mean, how about that? He ended up, like, basically having, like, one of his career ending injuries because he decided to pitch an inning for no reason. Like, hurt his arm. I remember being so excited that he was pitching, and then it was like, oh, that doesn't look very good. He left. He was, like, on the disabled list for, like, 180 days after that. Yu-Gi-Oh All right, you ready to sing us out, buddy? Oh, my. I don't even have a song. Are we. Are we good? Are you still mad at me? Do we need to make up? Like, do I need to, like, apologize for anything that I've done that. That got you so upset? Was I that Obsidian, I'm just. I'm just busting. I think that I was. I think I got a little agitated. I wasn't agitated at our topic. You were. Just wanted to answer some of the things you were saying. No. And it just kept going. You know what? I will. I will say this. I want to give you a second to just. Just tell me what you were agitated about. Go ahead. I was agitated because I wanted to address the seven items that you. I. I muted. I muted him, and now he's laughing. All right, sorry. I was. That was funny, though. Come on. And that's the reason why I was aggressive. All right, buddy. You know I love you song. I'll just do a commercial that's always in my mind. Okay. Okay. It goes. It's a little like this. Don't push me to push a push pop Push a push pop patch auto for flavor Push a push pop Save it for later.