Jackie vs Mantle Cards!! MidLife Card Chase

Sports talk, car talk, Poppy all day, wax packs, big polls and comps, we debate. So turn in and let the intro play. You're now rocking with the midlife car chase. David Chase, how are you, my friend? Great. Good to see you, Greg. I like when I have your relaxed version of you when you, when you do the intro because I always crack up when you do the midlife intros and you're like extra on coffee. You know what, you know the difference I'm talking about. Yeah. Hi everybody. Well, I gotta share my excitement for the time we're about to spend together. But yeah, I mean, yeah, I think when I'm just talking to another person, it's more, it's more calm, Greg. Unless I get fired up. And then when I get a little bit fired up, then I get a little bit animated. But you get in a more level headed Greg here for sure. I love both versions. So you're good? Yeah, I just listened to the Hangover this morning. We're recording this a couple days early if you're listening. If you haven't checked out the Hangover, check it out at the Sports Card Clubhouse, either podcast format or YouTube. It was a really good listen. I would say watch this one because there were some things to see in there. So if you're not watching the Hangover, you're missing out. What else is going on? What's new with you? Nothing, I'm just kind of preparing for the national, whatever that means. But like mentally getting there, making my list, changing it like of cards that I love and that I'm looking for, which I'm sure we'll talk about eventually on one of these shows. But you know, I just, I'm super excited to go to that huge show, walk around with you and our other friends and just get lost and get have dinners and you know, just, yeah, you know, have a great time at a show together. Yeah, it's going to be pretty cool. And there are some, there are a few people who are going to be there who I consider good friends but haven't spent time with in person. Like my buddy Adam. Splendid Sports is going to be there. He hasn't been to a national, I think since 2023, so he's not been the last two. So we've not spent time in person. But looking forward to that. I just recorded, I think I told you this in person off. Maybe I think I did that I recorded with Dr. Beckett for his podcast. I didn't tell you that? No. So Dr. Beckett, I don't know when it's going to air probably in a couple of weeks. But for Father's Day, every year, he does a couple of father son kind of interview conversations. And he invited me and my dad on, and it was really cool because, you know, he had read my book and so he had insight into us and what we collect and how we collect. And. And so the questions that he were. He was asking were like, he. He kind of knew me. I'm like, dude, Dr. Beckett knows. Yeah. You know, so that was really cool. So I. I think that'll probably air around Father's Day, but it was. It was a fun conversation. We. We spent about an hour talking with him and. And so that was cool. Yeah. I'm surprised I didn't heard that. I've heard that we recorded that A couple. I've heard of other people that I think he was going to do that with too. Were you on a panel with others or was it just you, your dad and him? It was just the three of us, but I think most Father's Days, when he does this, he does two or three of these. And. And I am. I like you, I'm familiar. Was invited to be a participant in this, but our conversation was just the three of us. That's awesome. Yeah. So that was. That was a very cool moment. Now is. I'm sorry to interrupt, but I want to ask you one other thing. I don't think. Has your dad ever been on your channel? Are you serious? I can't remember. I mean, I know he's always in the chat. Oh, no, he did do with Darren. An off topic when you both did your father's. I watch Greg. You always, like, get so offended. But he's not on very often, though, Right? So he was on last Father's Day. Darren and I are. Off topic. Was with our dads. And then, of course, the estate sale video that I did where my dad bought the shoebox of cars at an estate sale. I remember that, too. We're going through those together. And then there were two or three other times that we had conversations. We haven't done one in a few months, so it's about time for us to do another one. But, yeah, he's been on the channel, I'd say, four or five times. Yeah, I think something that's relatively regular every. Even if it's like every couple of months would be interesting just to kind of see where his head's at, you know? Your fans, Greg, we like everybody in your family. All right, listen, I'm just a fan that wants More of everything. All right. My dad's more popular than I am, so just tone it down, you know, so that in person at the national, we spoke on the phone, but. So you actually are the inspiration behind our topic. This. This week, again, every other Saturday, you can find David and myself here on the Sports Card Clubhouse for our Midlife Card Chase. And then the opposite weeks on Saturdays is Mike with either Chris Sewell or Teapot for this week in Sports Cards. So twice a month we get to do this. And you came up with the topic. Do you want to introduce the topic as I pull a graphic up on the screen? Yeah, let's do it. Even though I have marbles in my mouth. And you're much better at telling us topics. But here's the thing, all right, I. I saw Garrett Wells doing a live stream on his channel, and Garrett is one of the larger national dealers. He goes and goes around to shows. He picks up cards. You know, we've heard stories of dealers going before the shows open and try to pick up as many as they can. He's one of those. He also sets up at all the big shows. But he's really. The cool thing about Garrett is he's very young. I'm guessing he's in his early 20s. And he's been doing it for a while. He does it with his dad. He actually has a very cool channel. Ballpark memories. I think it is correct, Greg. Yeah. Yeah. And it's actually very interesting to see kind of the inner workings of a dealer. And I really, really like that show, by the way. I think that it should be discussed to even bring them onto the clubhouse. But that's not just me. I think it's a great show. But so I was watching the livestream, and I'm like, you know what? I'm going to ask Garrett a question that I could. We could maybe talk about sometime. And it was, I gave them this list of these five players, tight. And for those that are listening, Ty Cobb, Babe Ruth, Jackie Robinson, Satchel Paige, and Mickey Mantle. And what I asked him was, of those five players, who's the most liquid in today's environment? So what that my question was kind of going for, when you get one of those cards and you price it reasonably, whatever that means, but if you do, how fast does it go? Right. How long are you holding on to this inventory of one of these kind of players and rank them for me for the most liquid to the least liquid in today's market? And then I had thoughts after that, but I showed you this list, Greg, and we, we haven't had a conversation about this yet. What is your thought on what you think in today's market? What he would say is the most liquid to the least liquid of Ty Cobb, Babe Ruth, Jackie Robinson, Satchel Page, and Mickey Mantle? I think Jackie Robinson is the most liquid. I think those are impossible to keep in stock at the moment, would be my guess. I. I don't have any hard evidence for that, but that's what my anecdotal observations would say. Okay, and who would be after that? Well, the problem is, after that, price points tend to change. There are still some Jackies that are relatively affordable. There are still some Mantles that are relatively affordable. But Cobb, Ruth and Satchel, most of those cards are significantly more expensive than most Jackies, although Jackie's have gotten way up there, too. Mantle, I think, is, you know, Mantle is Mantle. But I feel like when I look in cases, I see lots of Mantles. I don't feel like I see Jackie's very often. When I see a Jackie, I go, oh, they've got a Jackie. Which tells me that I would think now Mantle has more cards than Jackie. He has significantly more cards than. Than Jackie and significantly more cards than Satchel. And that's part of the problem with Jackie and Satchel is that both of them only have, you know, less than two handfuls of cards. So the next most liquid. So I'm going Jackie first, I think I'm going to go Satchel second. I think Satchel is going to be the next most liquid. And then after that, I'm going to say Cobb. And it's interesting that I'm going with those in that order, because if I remember back to my childhood when I was a kid and I would go to card shows, which we went to lots and lots of big card shows out here in California, from the time I was about 8 until the time I was about 18, I would have said Mantle, I would have thought would be the most liquid. And then Ruth would probably have been the second most liquid. So now I'm putting them below, below those other three. So I, I feel like it's my. Again, I have no idea what you're about to tell me, but I feel like what it was and what it is has kind of flipped. That said, how I do. You did. You did very, very well. So wait, I just want to just confirm with you what you're saying. You're saying Jackie, Paige, Cobb, Ruth, Mantle. I think so. Okay. And if I were to go back 20 years, I think it probably would have been Mantle first, Ruth second, Cobb third, probably Jackie fourth and Paige last is what I would have. I would have. You're jumping to part two of this, but I agree. I did. That's the joy of how fun this kind of list is. I agree with you. We're going to talk about that. But here's what Garrett said and by. You did great. Okay. Number one, Jackie, by far. Okay. And he is way above everybody else. And there's a huge gap after Jackie. Okay. Number two is Paige. And I'm going to give you a caveat, but I'm just going to give you the list. First Paige and then right below that is Ruth and then Cobb and then Mantle. So you were very close, but he did specify that Ruth. The goudies are extremely liquid, but Ruth has a, you know, strip cards and stuff that are not. Right. Yeah. So you were on the right path of that because Ruth has a lot of different things. You're right about Paige. Paige really only has the leaf, the 40, the. The bowman and the 53 tops. Right. He only has three cards. So they're all liquid. Right. All very, very, very liquid. And Mantle has so many different cards. Right. Probably that 52 tops mantle is. Is extremely liquid and probably 53 tops 51 bowman. But when you start getting to the 60s, maybe not as liquid. Right. And he has so many cards just like what you were saying. So I just. I thought that was very interesting to think that way because I agree with you. Mantle has always been the king of this hobby of vintage. Right. And to think that Jackie is at a pace that's exceeding everybody else and Paige to be right behind him, it really was kind of. It just made me think exactly what you were saying for part two where this list would be 15 years ago. And it's funny because all these guys have been retired, most of them dead. Right. 15 years ago. And what I did is I compared the 19 besides 1952, which the 1952 mantle's its own beast. Okay. So we can't really compare the 52 mantle, but we can compare the 53 tops mantle with the 53 tops Jackie and then 56 tops mantle and 56 tops Jackie. Because the other years Mantle wasn't in them. Right. 54, he doesn't. 55 mantle doesn't have a. Doesn't have card. Yeah. Right. So what I was looking at is 15 years ago, the percentage of what the Jackie was versus the mantle. And right now in the 53 Jackie, he. It's 42% so basically I just took the average like PSA 5, which is about 1350 on a Jackie, divided that by the average, sorry, the 53 man told divided by 53 man Jackie, 3700. The 53 mantles, 8, 800. That's about 42%. Okay. Of what that, what the Mantle is worth. Jackie compared to mantle. 15 years ago it was only 25% of the value. So it's catching up, it's catching up to the value of the Mantle. And now let's look at 56, because 53, you could say it's a lot earlier year of the mantle. Well, 15 years ago it was 16.9% the Jackie compared to the mantle, and now it's 3111 half percent. So Jackie is really catching up to Mantle. Yeah, yeah. And I think deservedly so. And I think, I think part of that probably has something to do with people want a Jackie card and they have fewer cards to pick from because the first cards are, you know, 48ish. I mean bond bread you could talk about, but 48ish, 49 to 56, there aren't as many years, there aren't as many cards to pick from, whereas Mantle has from 51 to 69. Right. So there's, you know, a lot more options of cards in the print run of the cards in the 60s. You know, there's a lot of those around. I, it's definitely interesting. And you know, one of my first live streams that I did with Tony and Petty and Darren was I did this sort of thought experiment of like, who is hobby relevant and who will be hobby relevant in 10 or 20 years. And I got a lot of feet. A lot of people are saying, what do you mean you're not gonna be hobby relevant? And I'm just like, you know, you know what I'm saying? Like, I'm just, we're just talking, we're just spitballing here and we kind of talked about who would still be extremely hobby relevant. I mean, Richie Ashburn was a great player, but there aren't a lot of new entrants to the hobby saying, well, the first place I'm going to start is my Richie Ashburn run. Like, that's just not happening. And, and I talk a little bit about this and, and my days are all confused. So I don't know if it was my Wednesday episode this week, which as you probably haven't heard yet, or my Monday episode, but I talked a little bit about as new people are entering the hobby, like if, if you're a new person in the hobby in modern. One of the reasons I think Shohei cards are going crazy, not he's obviously a unicorn. But if you're entering the hobby, you go, I want a baseball card, I want Shohei. That's who you want. You're not thinking about the next tier. You're not thinking about Manny Machado or you know, Juan Soto. The, the newest people coming in aren't thinking about them. If you're a new person going into vintage, into the hobby, you are thinking I would think amongst these names, you know, throw in Maze, you know, maybe throwing Clemente, maybe throwing. I mean it goes, it kind of tears down a little bit. But like they're going, they're not going a new person wanting to put money into this to this. Especially if you're an investor thinking it's like an asset class. You're not going, I'm going to, I'm going to get a bunch of middle 60s alkaline cards or you know, Brooks Robinson cards from the late 60s. You're just not, that's just not what those people are doing. So the people, the cards that are spiking the most right now I think are the massive names that are household names that the new entrants can look in a case and go yeah, Mantle is definitely one I want to add. You know, Cobb is definitely one I want to add. Would you agree with that? 100 like these are the players but it's. But the thing that I think is the most interesting of that I agree with you by the way. Like those second tier players, which I know everyone doesn't like that term but the ones that are not the stars of all stars are definitely going to be not appreciating, most likely the same rate as these other players. But the crazy thing is is that even the top of the game players, they're being rearranged right before our eyes with nothing in the world happening to make that happen. Except for. That's what I want to discuss right. Like it's because of our, the way that the world has possibly changed to, to have Satchel Paige and Jackie Robinson be more liquid than Babe Ruth and Mickey Mantle. Which is just a very interesting thought. And I mean by the way Mickey Mantle cards have gone crazy, right? By the way, when I looked these up, these are for PSA fives. In 15 years ago that Mickey Mantle in a PSA5 was 1200. It's now 8800. So it's appreciated in a crazy way in the last 15 years. So this isn't a knock against Mantle. But by percentage, The Jackie was at 30515 years ago in a PSA 5 for the 53 and is now 3700. So by percentage gain it's gained a lot more. Right. And it's, and it's caught up to the Mantle. And I just think that that's a very. It's just interesting because I think Jackie was in our history books 15 years ago, wasn't he? I mean I remember hearing about him when I was in school. Maybe it's more now, but what do you think has changed over the last 15 years? Now, before I answer that, I do want to throw out there a thank you to Auction Wire for being the sponsor of this episode. And as you're searching for cards out there, if you are only searching on ebay, if you are only searching on rea or fanatics, you are missing out on a lot of different cards that are popping up in the market. And Auction Wire casts a much wider net and allows you to find cards that you otherwise might not have. It's a one stop shop for searching for cards. So auctionwire AI you can try it for free for 60 days with the promo code SCC as in sports card clubhouse again, SCC. So check out Auction Wire again. A great guy is over there. A product that both of you and I use and believe in and is run by a couple of really, really good dudes. So strongly recommend Auction Wire. Now, as far as what do I think happened? This is what I think happened. I think as time goes by, the lore of some people fade. We start to forget about really, really goodness. But we don't forget about greatness. And so I don't think it's so much that Jackie Robinson has risen to the top. It's more a lot of those middle tier guys like Whitey Ford and Brooks Robinson and Frank Robinson, the, the memory of their lore has kind of faded. And so you know, it, it's more of a. When the tide goes down, the highest rocks stick up. You know, they stick out over the water and you go, oh, there's actually land right there. Well, yeah, because the tide kind of came down. And so as the tide goes out and the water goes down a little bit, there are some things that are still visible. And I, I think that it's that I don't think, I mean I remember in fifth grade, the whole fifth grade, all the different elementary classes in fifth grade read the book the Year of the Boar and Jackie Robinson and it was basically about this, this young immigrant girl who moved to New York and she didn't know much English and she didn't really have any friends, but it was year that Jackie Robinson was basically breaking barriers. And it was something that the young girl could relate to. And we learned about that when I was in fifth, fifth grade. I mean, that was 35 years ago. We were learning about Jackie Robinson as elementary school kids. So it's not so much that as I think it is Luis Aparicio, they're starting to lose. He's starting to lose his luster. You know, Harmon Killebrew is slowly starting to be forgotten. If you look at the T206 set, I could read off some names on the wall right here. Jake Beckley, Bobby Wallace. You know, you go, who? George, George Davis, Jimmy Collins, Vic Willis. A lot of people go, who are those guys? But then I look at other names up there and I say, you know, Walter Johnson, Ty Cobb, Cy Young. So I think that's part of it is I think that it's the really good. Those people are slowly being forgotten. It's not, not that they should be, but that's just naturally what happens. Just like with the T206 guys I just named. And let me use another just sort of example here for you. And then I want to hear what you think about what I had to say in the inaugural hall of Fame class. Okay, the inaugural hall of Fame class. Christy Mathewson got in and Walter Johnson got in, but Cy Young didn't get in. Cy Young got in on the second ballot the second year, as did Trish Speaker. Trish Speaker, Cy Young, second ballot hall of Famers. Now, David Ortiz apparently is a first ballot hall of Famer, but CC Sabathia is a first ballot hall of Famer. Cy Young's not. But if you went to a case and I brought a high school kid up to a vintage case with me right now, and there was Christy Mathewson, Walter Johnson and Cy Young. Three of those three cards side by side. The card that's going to get his attention is Cy Young. Not necessarily because of who was better, because the hall of Fame voters years ago said Cy Young is beneath those other two. But because of the, the level of day to day name recognition of the award being named after Cy Young, of people are more aware of that person for whatever reason, that that plays a part of it too. So I think part of it is the fading, the erosion of the, the really, really good and leaving the greats sticking out. And I also think it's the, the Names that are in pop culture, like Joe DiMaggio is a part of culture from the 40s. And so, you know, when you look at that era in books, it talks about Joe DiMaggio and Marilyn Monroe, you know, it talks about him, it talks about Mickey Mantle, it talks about Willie Mays and talks about Babe Ruth and those guys stand out. So that's my take on it. What's your take? I mean, I agree with you. I think that the, the top players are always going to demand the most and appreciate the most. And I think that the, the, the players that are not at the tip of your tongue are probably going to appreciate at a slower rate. I get that part. The thing that was the most interesting to me about this thought though is Mickey Mantle versus Jackie. That's really the thing. Because here's the thing that keeps going in my mind and maybe I'm just. And I don't even know if I believe in this, but it's just something that I keep thinking about is that the baby boomer generation put Mickey Mantle as their goat. Right? He was larger than life. He was on every magazine. He was the golden boy. Right? And as that generation is getting older and as new people are getting into the hobby, I think that Jackie is slowly becoming the golden child of, of the baseball cards. Because we, in all of these books and everything, Mickey Mantle is not in our history books the same way. He was the larger than life person during that time. But Jackie Robinson right now is. You know, I had a conversation with my 8 year old and his friends and I asked them about Jackie Robinson versus Mickey Mantle. This was like six months ago. And I think like, of the like six friends that I was talking to, one of them knew who Mickey Mantle was and all of them knew who Jackie Robinson was. Right? So I just really think that the 52 mantle is on a different level. That's going to be the iconic card of all iconic cards. But I think that as time goes on, Jackie is going to really start to gain even more and more momentum versus Mickey Mantle, who has been our hobby darling forever. And I don't even know if I 100% believe it, but I'm just kind of talking out loud as I, as I'm. No, I think it's very possible. And, and so let me turn the question back to you. Why do you think is that the reason that the list flipped upside down, is that the reason that that years ago Mantle was one of that list and now he's 5 is because the, the younger generation is more aware of Jackie Robinson than they are of Mickey Mantle. And. And as they enter the hobby. And I mean, is that what's. Is because it is interesting because it used to be Mantle. It was like Mantle and then everything else. And to a certain extent, it is still Mantle and everything else. But if you go. Some people just a little bit younger than us, just a little bit, you know, like Chris Ho. Chris Ho is pretty big on. On Willie Mace. And he's like, yeah, I look at the. See, he's a numbers guy. He looks at championships and he looks at stats and MVPs and he looks for differentiators. He's like, why is Willie May's stuff so cheap? Like, it doesn't make any sense to him. But it's possible that we, you know, our generation, the people in our mid-40s to early 50s, our dads, were enamored with Mantle and just like beat that into our brains. And the people below us, the half generation to generation below us, didn't have that experience. Like, they. That's maybe part of the reason why Nolan Ryan is. Is so hot right now. Is. Is Nolan Ryan was like, unbelievable, you know, doing things that, you know, people weren't doing from that half generation after us. Like, I don't. I mean, that might be part of it. It's. It's an interesting conversation. And the reason I think it's an interesting conversation is because what is true right now is not necessarily what's going to be true in 20 years or 10 years or 30 years or 40 years. And, and a lot of people don't care about values. And a lot of conversations when us guys start talking about this stuff is, well, you were just quoting some numbers and values. And why is that value this and why is it catching up here? And what value represents is demand. It's not that the value matters as much as the demand matters. And the value is. Is a way to be able to have concrete evidence of demand changes. And so when you quoted those numbers, I didn't go, oh, well, I got to invest in Jackie. It's more. People are wanting Jackie things which is demonstrated from the value. So that's one of the reasons I, I get frustrated when people talk about the. Why are we talking about value? Because value is demand. The, the. The supply is set. So the way you can see changes in demand is by changes in the value. And the value of Satchel has gone way up. The liquidity has gone way up. Same with Jackie. I mean, I was with you at the, the west coast card show. In February, and we were over at your buddy. Your buddy's table, and John Irwin, and he had. He had three 56 jackies, and two of them were his. And one of them was. Remind me of the little dude's name that hangs out at his table, Brayton. So he had one. And I went over to the table and. Because I was kind of thinking about getting one of them, because they were all kind of between, like, three, three and a half, four. Four and a half. They were all in that range, which is kind of the range I've been looking. And I was kind of thinking about a couple of the Jackies, and I went over later and Ash was buying two of them. And then there was one that was Brayton's, and he. He had put it in to try to get it stickered, and it seemed like it deserved a sticker. It didn't get stickered. And so he was trying to sell it, and he approached me and said, hey, I know you were interested in this. Would, you know, would you want to buy it? And I was like, you know, I was like, don't panic. Sell this card. This card is going to sell at the price that you have it for. Don't panic. Sell it. Just be patient. But I think I'm going to pass. I'm not going to buy it. That card is up 20% since February. Like, if I had bought that card, I could sell it to a dealer right now for. For more than I would have bought it from him for. It's crazy what's happening with Jackie's stuff right now. It's explosive. The prices are absolutely crazy, but quite frankly, deservedly so. The other thing I'll say is this part of it, I think is Mantel's prices were already so high, a lot of people were priced out. And so then you go, okay, well, who's next? And you start seeing Clemente and Koufax and Jackie and those guys in the golden era are, you know, and Maze, obviously, are kind of like the next tier. Because, you know, one of the reasons more the 53 tops mantle maybe hasn't gone up even more, which it's gone up quite a bit based on the numbers you just quoted, is because there's a lot of people that can't afford that. They can't afford it, so they're priced out. So you go, well, I like that set. What else could I get? Then, you know, and they look at the next option. So I think. I think at least some of it has to be, well to, you know, get to the top of the summit of the Mantle is. Is not something I'm going to be able to do, but that smaller mountain over there, I might be able to climb to the top of that. Yeah, that's a great point. And you know, I think that Jackie just people are like wow, the prices are so crazy. Are they that crazy when you look at the prices versus the mantle? Are they? If you look at the 52 tops mantle versus the 48 leaf Jackie that has a very similar amount of of pop. They're not close together. And if you look at the 52 tops Jackie, which is an incredible card versus the 52 topps mantle, both of them not rookie cards. Now I know it's a second year Mantle, I get it. But should there be that much of a difference or between the 53s or even the 56s now which is Jackie's last card? So you know when people are saying I can't believe the prices of Jackie, maybe it's just because that Jackie has been so low for so long, it's just catching up to where maybe he should be or maybe whatever that even means if he should be or shouldn't be. Now an interesting part of this list that I thought also is when you mentioned Satchel Page being number two right now. Is Satchel Page in the history books? I don't think so. Right now we. You have to be a pretty hardcore baseball card or baseball historian to know about Satchel Page. I don't think the average person knows about him. And he doesn't have the most amazing major league statistics because he wasn't in the major leagues. Unfortunately he was in for a very short period of time. Why do you think that his lore with there's no new movie or a crazy book in pop culture. There hasn't been a. And by the way, if the if Jamie Foxx ever plays Satchel Page is directed by Steven Spielberg, man, I can't even imagine what a Satchel Page because he has some amazing stories. If you really dive in deep, it's incredible stories. But why is his card so hot right now in your mind? It's an interesting question. It's a. It's a really good question. In economics there's this. Sometimes the price of things are affected by the price of related goods. If the demand for hot dogs quadruples, then the demand of mustard is probably going to go up as well. Because the demand of hot dogs went up. Right? The bun prices are going to go up. If the hot dog demand goes up. I. I Think it's possible. And I'm just spitballing. I mean, you just dropped this question on me, and I have 12 seconds to come up with some idea. All right. But it could be people are seeing what's happening with Jackie stuff, and the pitcher version of that is, Is Satchel. And, and I think that between the Negro League stats becoming part of MLB stats now, it. It puts him more in the awareness spectrum. I think when you see Jackie having a huge increase in demand, Josh Gibson having a huge increase in demand, then you go, well, who. Who could be like that? Who can I, you know, attach myself to? Or which cards can I get? That might be the next one. And I think Satchel is an obvious choice. But you're right. It's not like he's not a household name. Satchel is not a household name. Probably should be. Satchel did incredible things. I mean, you could make the argument that he's one of the greatest pitchers of all time. You could make that argument. But he is the greatest pitcher of all time. Yeah, yeah, that's what I mean. Literally. Yeah, yeah, you can make that argument. And, and so I, I, It's. It's possible that the attention that Jackie and Jackie's cards and the attention of Josh Gibson and Josh Gibson's cards, because, like, when, When Major League Baseball took the Negro League stats and incorporated them, and then all of a sudden you're like, wait a second. The highest batting average ever now is Josh Gibson in Major League Baseball history, according to the Major League Baseball stats. Now, whether you agree with that or not is a different story. But what that does is it makes you go, whoa, that. That's that guy. Maybe I need some Josh Gibson cards. You know, Josh Gibson wasn't a guy that was a household name and probably isn't for a lot of people. If you ask those same kids that were over hanging out with your son, they know Jackie, but they probably don't know Josh Gibson and they probably don't know Satchel Page. But it's possible that the rising tide of Jackie pulls up the Satchel. It could be. I don't really know, but that would be my guess, my hypothesis, with 15 seconds to come up with something, I think that's great. Yeah, I think that that's as, as good of a reason as I could think of also. I mean, it's interesting, don't you think, that, like, I'm shocked that there isn't a major movie about Satchel because he was such a character and he went through so much. That man I would feel like that that would be an amazing. Well, and then when he came back and pitched later and was like, it was like what was he like 50 or something? 70. Yeah, yeah, 70. I don't even remember. I mean, yeah, nobody birth, I don't think. Yeah, well that's. Nobody knows. Albert Pujols is easier, but that's a different story. Okay, so one of the things that we also like to do, and we're at our 40 minute mark, if you're listening. It's been a quick 40 minutes for me. You're about to move on, aren't you? Are you about to move on right now? Yeah. Ask you one last question to end this course. Of course. So you mentioned Kofax and Clemente, which those were two of my people that I was thinking of too. This isn't investing advice. We're not giving anything like that. But of the people in 15 more years, how things can change without anything really happening, are those the two people that you're thinking like could maybe become more for their cards to catch up to? Some of these all time greats, are those the two that are on your mind? The, the thing about card values is it's based on demand and demand is based on popularity. It's not based on greatness, it's not based on achievement, it's based on popularity. And that's the reason that Mantle is worth more than Maze is because Mantle is more popular than Mace. So to predict what a change in popularity will be, which is because you used the word investment in that question or in that lead up, which makes it a little bit tougher. Don't say I said it's not an investment. But okay, so a person who is important and great, really great, really important. You know, my dad is screaming at the screen right now, Chris, say Kurt Flood. Greg, I'm not going to. The person who is truly great and truly important not the Kurt Flood isn't and is severely overlooked is Frank Robinson. If you look at Frank Robinson's stats, people would be shocked. If they looked at Frank Robinson stats, they would be shocked. Plus he was the first black manager, if I'm not mistaken. Yeah, he was a manager of the year in the American League and the National League as a black man, which. And, and his rookie card is from the 57 set, which. The 57 top set is a very important set. It's a very hard to find that card without snow. Very hard to find that card well centered. It's a tough centering card. Do I think that suddenly he'll be appreciated. Part of the problem about him is, is he was kind of cranky and he was kind of, you know, crotchety. And because of that, he wasn't as popular. Now, if you look at what he accomplished, if you just look at resumes, his stands out as overlooked, resume wise. But I don't know if, if people maybe as time goes by and some of the people who saw his interviews and saw kind of his crankiness, you know, pass away and they look just at the numbers. Because that's part of Willie Mays's issue too. Is it parts of Willie Mays's life? He was kind of cranky, but I also want to give those guys the benefit of the doubt because if I grew up and I was trying to come up at the time that those two African American men were coming into the league and probably not getting their due and not getting the appreciation they deserved, then I would probably be cranky and bitter as well. So I don't really blame them for it. But. But Frank Robinson's accomplishments, both as an executive, as a manager, as a player, you would be. If you read a book on his accomplishments, you would be blown. Most people would be blown away at how good he was and for what his cards cost. So that would be my, my one. I hope that that's a great one that I didn't think of. Yeah. And I thought of this, you know, before I asked you, so I had more time to think. So for you to come up with, with Frank Robinson, right off the bat, I'm impressed. My three people I were thinking of. You said two of them already, Clemente and Kovacs. Because I was thinking we're celebrating diversity more now than ever, and maybe that will even go further in the future. Right. There's a Clemente Day now, and that's going to help Clemente's awareness and exposure. I didn't include Clemente because you had already mentioned him. So to me, that took Clemente and Koufax off and you said, I agree. I think you said, besides them, Clemente is definitely a guy who, who is insanely important. And the, the, you know, the Central American infusion of, of amazing baseball players. He is like one of the, you know, the people you point to as the reason for it. You know, the first Latin hall of Famer. Right. I don't know. Yeah, because he got in before Minnie Minoso played. Okay. Mini Minosa played before him, but didn't get into the hall of Fame until more recently. But. Yes, exactly. So. And who is your Third. So my other person I thought of was Larry Doby. Yeah. But because he wasn't as much of a star. Right. But he came into the league only a few months after Jackie endured a lot of the issues that Jackie did, is a Hall of Famer and is part of a lot of iconic sets. So I'm not saying that I think that he's going to be on the same level as Mickey Mantle and Jackie Robinson, but I could see there being more appreciation for him over the next few years, because I think he's underappreciated, too. I. I think it's a really good choice, and I think that he is a person that is starting to get more mentions than he was before, so I think that's a good choice. All right, all right, our last segment. What we like to do here is make a pitch to the other guy about a card that. That we think the other person should have in their collection. And. And so we're going to start with you again. We need to update your picture because we need a better. We need a newer picture of you than that one that you're. You're getting svelte, buddy. So I. I want. We're gonna first go with your pitch to me, a card I need in my collection. So David Chase recommends to me the. Well, you. You introduce it and tell me why. All right. It is the 1948 Leaf Ted Williams. Everyone must be shocked that I'm trying to pitch Ted Williams to you. But listen, there's a lot of reasons for this card, and, man, I took notes. I'm trying to figure out where my notes are, but I'm having a hard time finding them. But look at that card, Greg. All right? And also, Greg, for this segment, if it's a card that really doesn't hit for you, I want you. I want you to be honest about it, okay? It's okay. It's not going to hurt my feelings if you feel that way. But this card is such a cool card, and I know that, Greg, you love beauty, right? Greg's. That's his mission statement, is he loves beautiful cards. In my opinion, this is the number one, most beautiful card in the hobby. He looks like Superman. Okay? Number one. Literally. Wow. Okay. Literally number one. And by the way, the 48 leaf set, which I love the set because it's so cool. There's a lot of ugly cards in there, okay. Including my Jackie. All right. You know, Jackie looks like a little bit of a mess in that it's an iconic card, but he does look Like a mess. And Satchel Paige has his eyes closed in it, right? But your Warren Spawn is a pretty card, but this one is even better, okay? And man, he looks like he's an American hero. He looks like he's Superman coming off of the page on this 48 leaf, Ted Williams. And you know what? Ted Williams is underappreciated also in this hobby. He is was such a American hero and such a superstar. And I mean, there's a couple of things that I feel like aren't talked about very much. By the way, watch Tony's video on on Southern Collector. He has a great thing about Ted Williams. But just very quickly, okay? In 1941 he hit over.400. In 42 he won the Triple Crown. And in 42 he enlisted in the US Navy Reserve. Even though he he received a draft deferment. But still in 42 when he won the Triple crown, ended up in listing missed 43, 44 and 45. Came back in 1946 and won the American League MVP. And then in 47 won the Triple crown. Okay? So I mean like same. It's insane. It's insane. He missed three years and then came back. And then by the way, in 49 he won an MVP and then he went back into the military. And then he came back and he won batting titles. After he came back from the second tour of duty, in 57 and 58, he won batting titles. So even though he had 521 home runs, which is pretty amazing, they project him. Now, of course he could get hurt and it doesn't know for sure thing, but you ask AI these kind of questions, it's kind of fun to ask. They would project him to have 678 home runs, his RBIs, which he had 1839. They would have projected him to be number one ahead of Hank Aaron if he didn't miss those years. And I mean, you remember when Mike Tyson went to jail and came back and what he looked like after he came back. He went into the military, came back and won the Triple crown and the MVP in back to back years. I mean, give me a break. Ted Williams is a rock star. And by the way, this is his best card. What card competes with it? All right, take away the Wilson Franks. Okay, I get it. That's on a card on its own. But on mass produced cards, I would say this card is amazing. Maybe the 41 play ball, but this is a better car than the 41 play ball. When you think of 41 play ball, you think of that Joe DiMaggio card. This is the most beautiful card in the world, one of the most important cards, and Ted Williams best card. Greg, what do you think? I love the pitch. You don't need to sell me on. On Ted Williams. You don't need to sell me on this image being beautiful. I, I don't. I can't even give a good reason why I don't have it. I, I don't have a good reason. It's a beautiful card. You're right. I need it, and I have no defense. How could it not be at the top of your list? I mean, the pop, by the way, 2400. When I think of populations of cards, I always think of, like the, the iconic cards of where they're at. The Mickey man on the Jackie have about 3,000 pop. So this has a little bit lower than that kind of pop. Lower than anything, basically on 53 and beyond. And so it's not crazy pop. PSA ones go for like 1300 to 2000. PSA 2s go for like 2,400 to 3,200. It's not the cheap card, but it's the grail card. It's the iconic card that I feel like every person needs. You know what they tell sales people once you have the sale? Stop talking. Okay. Why is this not your top. Why is this not your top card at the National? I don't know. It's. It's a great card. It's a great card, and I, it, I, I need to have it on my list. You have been low, higher in your mind. I don't know. Okay. I. I don't know. It's a beautiful card. I don't know. Well, that makes it easy. Yeah, I mean, I don't know. I mean, there's a couple of cards. Yeah, I mean, I don't know. It should be at least in my top 10. At least. Is your spawn the only leaf card you have in your collection? I think so. I think so. Because you don't have the musual, the Ruth, right? Yeah. The DiMaggio. I almost thought, this is better than all those cards, by the way. Yeah, it is. It is not the spawn, but yeah. Okay, we're getting short on time, so I want to ask you a quick question before I pitch you on mine. So. Okay, let me ask you this question. What do you consider vintage? What is vintage? Oh, really? So when you say vintage. 1980. 1980. So 1983 isn't vintage? No, I wouldn't say that. I mean, I, I'm not really into 70s cards and stuff either. But for me, I think that like that 1980 is what I consider to be vintage for the most. For most people. Okay, well, I'm going to play a clip and you kind of rained on my parade a little bit, but I'm going to play a clip and then I'm going to recommend my card. Here we go. I mean, I just think that this man, I just think that vintage pop culture cards that are non sports have. I'm hearing from a lot of different people, like all of my collectors friends, like they are going down these crazy lanes of vintage non sports. And it is very interesting. And once you. I'm starting to dive into it pretty heavily. I know. Jeremy, you are. I don't know, Joe, if you have you gone into that really at all, vintage non sport pop culture is what you are starting to get really interested in. Apparently this card isn't vintage, but the 1985 Hasbro Transformers Optimus prime card number one is pop culture. Now, first of all, this is a beautiful card. It's got great colors on it. It's got a great image of Optimus Prime. If you grew up at the time of me and you, you grew up in an era where Transformers were super cool. It is part of pop culture recently because they've made movies about Transformers. I go to, I went to Universal Studios a few years ago and there are Transformer dudes walking around then talking in the cool voice. And you are saying that you think that pop culture cards and rookie cards of pop culture are cool and have a lot of upside, yet you're overlooking part of our childhood. I met one of my best friends on Earth because he stole my Transformer from me at school and my mom called his mom to get it back. And. And you're saying, I don't need this. So keeping in mind that we're short on time. I'm not gonna, I'm not gonna beat you over the head with it, but this is our childhood pop culture. This is not a super common card. I have four of these and I just keep upgrading. I bought a beater and then I, I bought a better raw one and I was like, I want a better one. And then I bought a PSA6 and I was like, I want a better one. And now I have a PSA 8 of this card. How much do that? How much around is. Is a price for that? PSA 8 of this card is a 200 card. Oh, okay. Yeah. And. And is the pot. Don't look it up. But, like, is the pop under a hundred, would you say? Oh, I think so, yeah. Okay. Probably a lot of them are not graded, but okay. It's interesting. You've got two and a half minutes to respond. Okay. I think that's a very interesting card. You are right. I do love pop culture and I'm actually getting into some modern pop culture too, of, like, some musicians that are after 1984. So that doesn't rule it out. Based on that, I did play with a lot of Transformers as a kid. The one thing, the only. And I think that's a very pretty card and I am interested in that card. So right off the bat, I do like it. I'll tell you the one thing that I don't love about it is that I wasn't really into the Transformer TV show or movies growing up. You know, I liked the toy, but maybe it's because I had two older sisters and they wouldn't let me put that on, but we really had Muppet Babies and Punky Brewster on Saturday mornings. More. More than Transformers. I like those two. The storylines of Transformers were really tough to get to get through. Try to watch one nowadays. So that's the only knock against it that it wasn't one of my, like, childhood TV shows that I loved. But I did love the toy and I did have a lot of the toys of them, so I could totally see myself getting that card. Yeah. All right. Well, you probably did a better pitch than me, but you used all the time, so I couldn't go into quite the depth of it. So I will say I've enjoyed your. Your shirt. Of Mr. Charles and his pizza making skills. Not so sure about Charles's pizza making skills, but his entertainment empire is fantastic. Charles, I like that you call him by his. Yeah, Charles E. Cheese is quite the. Quite the entertainer. Do you have anything you want to sing us out for or are you tired of the. Of the hate and shunning coming from the community about your singing or do you have friends? My friends. Correct. Anything you want to sing us out to today? I'm still doing it, you know, haters. Yeah. All right. My son, who's eight years old, he's. He's a better singer than me, don't worry. But he's. He's lead singer of. Of School of Rock Band. They just performed this last weekend. This was like one of his songs in his performance. I'm gonna end it with one of his rock songs he did. You ready? Yeah. Ex in Life and tonight Take My Hand. What to Never, never.