Passion to Profession: Turning Collector Passion Into a Career with Adam Gray

Foreign. Welcome back to another episode of Passion to Profession here on the Stacking Slabs Network, brought to you by my good friends at ebay. You know, we all listen to hobby content. You're doing that here and I appreciate you being here. And we all got started somewhere. The hobby content has been a part of most all of our journeys in the hobby. When I first got back into collecting cards, I did what most people do. I went to the podcast, started listening, and Adam Gray was someone who was putting out passionate content around basketball cards. I started listening, I started learning. I met Adam, made that connection, and I've been a big fan of watching him grow his brand and content in this space for years now. I'm excited to be joined by Adam in today's conversation. Adam is going to be talking about how he used his passion in sports cards to build his own career in sports cards. And that's what this show is all about. Fired up to share this episode with you. If you want to show your support for the broader Stacking Slabs Network, hit the follow button. Tell a damn friend. Run on over to the Patreon Group. Make sure you are subscribed to Hobby Jobs link is in the Show Notes newsletter every Tuesday. Also, new episodes come out on Sunday. If you want to learn more about building a business in this space that we all love, shout out ebay for making this all possible. Here's Adam Gray. What's going on? Everybody excited for today's conversation? We just spent, I don't know, 15, 20 minutes talking about basketball and basketball cards that you're all not going to get a chance to listen to, but hopefully that'll make its way throughout the course of this episode. I am joined today by Adam Gray, and Adam is someone who I have wanted to have on the show ever since we started Passionate Profession. I think it's really fun to meet and connect with other people who are building businesses inside this hobby. And Adam has been someone I've been following ever since I got back. There wasn't many people doing podcasting, Adam was there. And you know, I just type in sports cards in my Apple podcast and the basketball card podcast pop up and I would just listen to everything. Like Adam, I can remember just driving around town listening to you talk, and I was like, didn't know you, but knew you were passionate about basketball cards. So we're going to talk about just your career in the hobby and a whole lot more. But without further ado, welcome, man. How are you, dude? It's so good to do this. You and I Haven't chatted in way too long, but I'm really good. I've been looking forward to talking to you all week and obviously I'll say the same thing a lot of your listeners do when they first join, which is it's just awesome to see the growth of the Stacking Slab network and all the things that you're doing. Like it went from being a show to like so many shows and so many different things. And I'm just really happy for you and all the success that you're having. So thanks for having me on and glad to be a part of today's show and have this conversation with you. The feeling is mutual and you have been building and doing a lot of different things and we're going to talk about those things. But I, you know, it's funny, I was, I was digging into just LinkedIn beforehand and I just loved your, your headline, how you identify yourself. Author, podcaster, real maker. I talk about sports cards for a living and that was so awesome. And I was like, I, I personally did love being able to tell people, what do you do for a living? Oh, I talk about sports cards. And there's not many of us who like wear that on our sleeves. So maybe just as we just jump off into this conversation, like, what's that like for you? Like, like coming to that realization that like, that's what you get to do. Dude, it is like I, I answer it like this. People used to ask me when I was young, like, what do you want to do for a living? Like, what I do is so much cooler than what I thought I would be doing at this age. Right. I always said I wanted to play in the NBA, which would have been amazing, obviously, and I obviously didn't do that. But I'm 43 years old now and there's no 43 year olds left in the NBA. So what would be my outlook even if I did make it, doing it into the NBA? I'd be like, maybe like be able to be a coach or something like that. But then I'd have to travel all the time. Instead I get to just like research cards and talk about them. And yeah, I'm like, pinch me for sure. Because I feel, and I say it with a lot of gratitude, I feel so fortunate to be able to do what I do. And at some point, maybe the journey will end and I won't be able to do it anymore. But I'm going to do it as long as I can do it. As long as it keeps, you know, working out for me, I'm just going to keep going because I, I love it. How do you feel? I feel the same way. How do you feel with just like this, the, the industry being in this position that the industry is in right now where it's like very much from like a business perspective still forming, like the infrastructure is still being put in place and, but cards are selling for all time highs and you're just seeing stories of an outside capital and investment being put into this space. We're seeing athletes involved and it's, it is not the same hobby as when I was listening to Adam on the basketball Card podcast, you know, six years ago. It's, it's a lot different. Like I find myself in this position where I'm like cheering for it all. Like, I just wanted to continue to grow and expand and I want exciting opportunities to present it themselves to anyone who's passionate about working in this space. But like, like what, what is your viewpoint in, in just like the industry and what's happening right now? I like how you just described how you feel about it and I would honestly love to hear more about how you feel about it. But for me, I feel like you, I feel excited. I feel like every time there's something big that's happening, some like big movement in, in, in the market or in like the technological advances of the market or smart things that I see people doing and big funding, all those things are always really exciting because it validates the initial thoughts where we thought that this might go, what we thought this might become, we sort of go back in time and a lot of it has borne out to be true. And so as things like that keep happening, it's like, wow, this is great, this is exciting and I like it. But at the same time I also realize that those things, if we look back at our history of sports cards, there's things that happen along the way that are clunky and difficult. And so within all the big things, the cool things that happen, there's also these other things that are difficult. And I don't know where we're going, man, I have no idea. But I just feel like I'm here for the ride and excited for it. And if it goes back down to where it was, you know, 10 years ago, I feel like I'll still be here just doing the same things. And so it doesn't have a huge impact on what I do day to day in a lot of ways, but in so many ways it does. I don't know if that's a Good answer at all. But that's sort of inside my mind a little bit on that. Do you have any other thoughts, though? Any other feelings about, like, is it crazy to you to see these companies sort of like expanding and having a need for all of the different services that they need, how much money there is in it? Like, how, how do you feel about it? My position has been there is. What I have learned about being in this space and working in this space is that there is so many different flavors of hobby. There's so many different ways to approach it. And I'll tell you, like, eight out of the 10 ways, if there were 10 ways, eight out of the 10 ways aren't for me. Like, I, I, I, I, I, they're just not for me. But so I understand that those things likely need to exist in order for more outside interest capital companies to take shape. And so what I have found is that is really encouraging is that there's people like you who like what you said. If it went down, I'd still be working in this space. And like, I believe you because when I first started to listen to you, like, it wasn't like this. It was, it was a whole different ball game. But you, you were, you know, you would share your passion and talk about your why. And I don't know, man, maybe that's like what where I wanted to go is just like you're, you're a big time basketball card collector. You've been doing this essentially your whole life. From what I've gathered through our chats and listening to your content, like, what is it about cards that you are not only drawn to collect but build a career around at this point, man, that's a real soul searching question. Rhett. I'm serious. It is. I want to say a few things about this. So I didn't know that this would become a career. I didn't. I had no idea. And then as I did my real career stuff, I realized that I would rather be doing cards. And of course that's true, though. Of course cards are fun, right? And everybody would rather do cards than do accounting, which is what I was doing. I was doing really cool accounting. I will say that I was accounting for funds. My last thing that I did was private equity and venture capital fund administration. I was a controller at a BCPE shop here in Utah. And it was, it was really cool, but like, I still just didn't like it. So it was like this job that like a lot of accountants would be like, that's the coolest job ever. And I was like, yeah, but, like, I don't want to do it anymore. I would rather write about cards and, like, make videos about cards and talk about cards. And then. This is a funny story. I don't think I've ever told this story before. I was at the national in, gosh, what was it, like, 2018 maybe? And I ran into these guys who were from Australia, and one of them was a big Scottie Pippen card collector. And he's like, do you have any big cards with you? And I was like, yeah, I do. I've had a couple of big Pippin cards. And he's like, no way. Let me see him. Long story short, the next. He's like, would you sell them? And I was like, I didn't bring them to sell. But, like, you're here from Australia. You probably need these more than I do. Like, you're the biggest Scottie Pippen collector. You probably want these more than me. And I was like, you should make an offer. And so he made an offer. And I was like, I just. I think it needs to be more than that. And so anyway, I gave him. I gave him an offer. I said, just think about it till tomorrow. I'm not going to sell them to anybody else in the whole show. No matter what they offer. They're yours for this if you want it. And he's like, okay. And so the next day, he. He was like, I. Paul moved the punchline here because I promise this will lead sore. He goes. He goes, so I want to do X. And. Which was like, $500 less than I'd asked for. And I looked at him. His name was Matt. I was like, matt, listen, you're here from Australia. You're the biggest Scotty Pippen collector in the world. You've never seen these particular cards before. You're probably never going to see them again. Let's talk about how rare they are. Let's talk about why they're significant to Pippin, the uniform that he's wearing, the design of the card. And I just walk through it, and there was like a group of two or three people listening to me sort of do this, like, 32nd off the top of my head riff. And one of the guys, as I finished, says, wow. He's like, did you just come up with that right now? And I was like, what do you mean? And he's like, that was crazy. I've never seen anybody do anything like that before. I was like, I genuinely don't know what you're talking about. And he's like, the way you talked about that, I just know you love cards. And so your question is, like, why? I don't know why. But I do know that when I was a kid, my mom bought me packs of 1990 hoops. Some days when I was good, she'd pull one out of the glove box when we were driving somewhere, and she'd let me open it. And those are some of my formative memories. I love cards. I love the thrill of opening a pack. I love putting together sets. I love putting together deals. I used to love, like, negotiation. I hate negotiation now more than just about anything in the whole world. And I love what I learned from it along the way. And it's always just been fun for me. And I've never known. I've never felt like in my career like, that I can go out and I can do some great thing, like, you know, save the whales or, like, do some, like, great, awesome thing to make the world better. But I've always felt like in my card collecting, I can be. I can build friendships and. And like, I don't know, this sounds super cheesy, but sort of, like, make the world better and, like, being a fun card guy to be, like, to hang out with. And like, I worked at a card shop for seven years, and I loved learning about it, and I just have always loved it, and so I just am always drawn to it. And I don't know if I have a better answer than that. It's not. It's. Again, it's not any. It's not any great thing. But I do like to think that as we educate in the right way, and I like to think that I do that. I like to try to do that. At least I think it's a noble. I think it's a noble good thing. I think it is. At least I'm trying to make it that. So what I picked up on from your Scotty Pippin pitch was that you are someone who appreciates context. You appreciate the story behind the card and sharing those stories with your audience. This rang true with the birth. I'm looking behind you and you've got all the basketball card fanatic editions, which I. I can remember being at my old house before we even had kids. And I have three daughters now, and I can remember those coming out and just sitting there in peace and quiet on a Saturday and just reading through everything. And it was so awesome because not only did I get to hear someone talk about apparel or write about a parallel, but I got to understand like, the people behind some of these Instagram accounts. And it was something you kind of built from the ground up. And maybe, like, I, I think, like, we have these ideas in our head so often about things we want to build or should build, and we just don't do it in this space. But like, that was something like, you were very adamant on bringing to life and putting together, and you did it. So maybe like, in, I know, like, you were making a salary to, like, probably support your family through the basketball card fanatic, but you're probably generating some revenue and you're having fun doing it. So maybe, like, talk about that experience with basketball card fanatic, bringing it to life and just, like, how that all came to be. Well, the coolest part is now people are selling them on ebay. I've seen, I've seen multiple issues suffer, like, $40, which makes me so happy. I, I, that whole experience is just crazy to think about. I, I, you know, in preparation for this, you sent me some questions, and one of the questions that you asked was something like, you know, what, what made you start thinking about it or something. And I, I don't even know. I don't remember at this point. I remember, I remember there were people who were doing things at this point. They were trying to, like, make cool things in the hobby. Like, card ladder had just come out, and, you know, they, they were, they were getting that launched. And I was like, man, that's so cool. I want to do something big. And I just, I've never been. It's, it's funny because, like, I went to business school. I don't think I'm a dumb guy, but, like, I've never really known how to, like, run a business or how to make any, Anything, like, big. I've never been a big people mover. I don't know how to, like, get people to do things. I've never had, like, employees. I just, I just am, like, a guy who can start things and just see what happens. But, like, that doesn't mean that I'm good at, like, running, like, a business anyway. That's another story for another day. So I was just like, it'd be really cool if, like, the old section of Beckett magazine that had all of the cool, like, written things, if that existed today. I wonder if we could make something like that that wasn't a price guide, but was all of the, you know, all of the qualitative stuff that people would like, and I wonder if people would buy it. And, like, I talked to Dr. Beckett about it and I talked to a few other people about it and it was like, Adam, you could just try this. And I was like, yeah, I could try this. Like, people would like to write for this magazine, right? And what if, what if like we just wrote it and what, what if we like just send it out via PDF? That would be so cool. And, and so I did it once for free. I sent it out to all these people and I had a few people who wrote for it and it had like no design work or anything. And then I had a friend message me and I know you know him because you've interviewed him before. Black Griffin cards on Instagram. He messaged me and he's like, Adam, the worst thing about your magazine is the design that's never going to do anything if you don't do this. And I was like, wow, you're pretty straightforward guy, aren't you? And he was right. A basketball card fanatic Would, wouldn't have made it five issues if it wasn't for Kevin. He, he made the whole thing happen. And so we, we just, he's, he's like, hey, like, let me help you with this. Let me do this, let me do that. And we sort of formed a partnership. And then over the course of the next like four, four plus years, every month, I don't know how we did this still every month we came up with a full legit magazine that was between 32 and 36 pages long, with all of the design, all of the editing, all of the everything. It was not some massive. It wasn't Beckett. Right. Although Beckett had lots of mistakes in it too. We had mistakes and we had other things that weren't that made it not perfect. But we had incredible interviews and super passionate articles and, you know, education that was really good. We did a lot of really cool things. But the most issues that we ever solve in any given month was 500 issues. We never sold more than that. And so it's not like we made a ton of money. We did add sponsors, thankfully for CGC and who else? PWCC and Lelands and a few others. Like, we had a few little sponsors here that sort of kept us and able to do it. But then finally one day I sort of just like looked around and I was like, man, I am working so hard on something that 500 people are seeing, you know, And a lot of those 500 people were getting the magazine. They're looking at the COVID and then they're putting it away. You know, not everybody was reading it every, every month. And I know, you know, even as like, good, good subscribers, like, it's hard to like, sit down and read a magazine and stuff, so. But I, I loved it. I loved the passion. I. I was really proud to do it because, because it was not. It was never going to be some multimillion dollar thing. It was just about fun and passion. And like, we made it last for over four years, right? We made it go. And people, people don't know this, we spent more on printing the magazine than it cost to, like, subscribe to the magazine. Like, we, we did everything that we could to just try to make it fun for collectors. That was possible because of this, because of the sponsors, obviously. And yeah, we made a little bit of money, but for the most part, dude, it was just, it was one of the coolest things that I've ever done. I'm glad you asked me about it because people don't ask me about it anymore. Even though I've got the issues sitting behind me, people don't really ask me about it anymore. But Brett, it was, dude, it was so much fun. Thank you for asking me. I loved it. I used to like, message. It was a great networking tool for me because I'd read someone's article and I'd message the collector and be like, this was so awesome. Thankful. And I'd build relationships off of it. And maybe like, I think putting work out into the world, it's a form of building reputation. Like, do you, do you think, like, do you think Basketball Card fanatic, like, how important was it to you getting your reputation out there? And like, do you think you'd be doing what you're doing right now if it wasn't for something like Basketball Card Fanatic? Gosh, this is a good question. I don't think I would have been able to do it. I my. At one point we hired an editor. His name is Remington. He was a friend of mine from, from the world of accounting. And he goes, adam, I'm going to tell you why you're running Basketball Card Fanatic right now. Why? Because I. Because he geek it to. I was having fun, but he could tell I didn't really know what I was doing. And he goes, you're running it because you want to get a full time job in the space and you want to be able to have your career be in cards and you want to show your family that. You want to show your kids that they can do what they want, that they don't have to go out and just do the big job with the Fancy name and make all the big money. You can go do what you want to do. And so that's what you want to show your kids. And that's what the purpose of Basketball Card Fanatic is. And then along the way, you know, I had an offer to go work for pwcc, and I was like, wow, that. So to answer your question, that happened directly because of bcf and your point, you couldn't be any. Any better. You couldn't be any more spot on about this. The best part of bcf, the best part was that every month we had this big interview and we had, you know, three or four community articles that were written, or maybe like one or two community articles as we. As we got later in BCF's history. And I would ask people, I would be like, I'd like, message people. Like, I'd message somebody like Nat Turner. And I'd be like, hey, Nat, you don't know me, but I have this magazine that I'm running and could I talk to you? And he'd be like, sure. And I was like, okay, that's crazy. I can't believe Nat Turner just said yes. And I did that with everybody. Like, I just asked everybody and all, but, like, one or two people were always like, yeah, I'd love to be your big interview. And a lot of times it was people that, like, never got interviewed. And so you got. You'd get to hear about, like, things that made them tick. And, you know, because you've interviewed as much as many people in the space as anybody has, like, when you. When you sit down with somebody and you get into really what makes them tick, it connects you in a way that's pretty cool. And so after four years, I had all these people who I'd connected with in a real way, in a meaningful way, and they loved getting. There's something different I have to say about this. When you get a paper interview with a transcript of. This is what we talked about with images and stuff, it's pretty cool. I think people were pretty. They felt pretty neat to be, like, in a magazine, even though it's not nearly as cool as, like, an interview, you know, like this type of interview, it's not as informative. It felt. It felt like official. It felt like a publication. It just. It felt really cool. I think for a lot of people, that's awesome. I go back and think about that publication, and they have a lot of very fond memories. And that is, I think, the mark of really good work when it comes up. And people think about it, and it makes them feel good. So I think you gave the reasons why, like, you know, it. Eventually you sunset the publication and you're kind of in this mode after that, right, where you. You're working your job, which was the coolest accounting job that any accountant could have. I'm the son of an accountant, so I understand the game a little bit. But you have this desire, too, to, like, you know, I would imagine, continue to pursue this path and working and supporting hobby businesses or bringing in supplemental income. Like, how did you navigate like that from, like, maybe a time perspective of, like, my primary source of income is. Is paying me, it's supporting my family. But I'm also like, have these side things going on. Like, how. How did you end up navigating that? Especially from a father who's got, you know, kids and you've only got so much time. Like, how did you manage that? I navigated it poorly. Like, I often do. I. I often get imbalanced. I'll bet you're the same way. I'll bet you're the same way. Like, I bet a lot of us are the same way. Maybe a little bit obsessive. Maybe a little bit. A little bit adhd may. You know, I think a lot of us have some of those tendencies. I know I do. My wife all the time is like, adam, you have these things. You need to be less obsessive. She tries to keep me, you know, maybe more balanced, but I don't always do a very good job of that. So, anyway, to answer your question, though, I. So I was at. I was doing private equity. I started the magazine, and then I took that job at pwcc. And part of the stipulation for taking the job at pwcc is I still needed to be able to make the content and then I. Or make that. Make the magazine. And I made the magazine all the way through my time at pwcc. And then at pwcc, things went crazy because the world changed on us for sports cards like it has many times in the past, and a lot of us got laid off. And I was one of those people who got laid off. And it was this terrible moment for me because I was like, gosh, I left this great accounting job so that I could pursue my card thing, and this is the end of it. And then right after they laid me off, I got a call from the content team at pwcc, and they were like, listen, we know you might not be up for this, but if you are up for it, we would like you to still continue to make content for us just as a part time thing. And I was like, okay. And I said, can I do the same thing for other places at the same time? And they said yes. And that was really like the most important moment for me in my career because what it enabled me to do is not just make content for one entity, but for all of the different places out there. And. And that was a really tricky place to navigate for a little while. You can imagine. Crazy. And in retrospect, I still don't know how I. I don't know how it happened. I don't. I'm gonna say, like, here's what I did. Here's what. I think I just got really lucky, like in so many spots. I think it was lucky that I got laid off when I did, but I was making. I was doing the magazine at the same time too. And so for like the next. I don't know, like the next year or two, it feels like I still was making the magazine while I was also making content for all these different places. And then just somewhere along the way, like, I was like, I can't do the magazine anymore. I've got too much stuff going on. And I'd see my, like, my average reel was being seen by like 40, 50,000 people. And then my magazine was being like, bought by like 400 people. And I was like, what am I doing here? Like, I can't. I can't keep doing that because it's costing me all of this other stuff. And I realized, like, I'm only one person I can't do. And I. And again, I've never known how to use, like, employees or anything like that. So I just. I don't know, man. I still have no idea what I'm doing, Brett. Like, I have no clue what I'm doing today. I have no idea. Like, but. But I do know that I had to stop and that was a good thing for me to do because my wife would tell you this too. Like, I'm just really bad at making sure I always put first things first. But I really do try, and I think I've got the right perspective. I just fail at it pretty much. I really fail at it a lot. We've been married for almost 20 years and I failed a good percentage that time. But I think as I'm getting older, I think I'm getting better. And I'm always trying to do that, but it's always in my heart. I want to be spending the right amount of time with my family. And I've done things like I've always walked my kids to school. I've always read my kids books before they go to bed. I've always done those types of things to try to be balanced. But I really struggle at it, man. I feel like it's a lifelong battle for guys like us. We're, we're constantly going to be trying to find the balance and probably failing. It never stops because the hobby never stops. And our interest around cards and especially if you're creating around cards like the, the opportunities are endless. And I often say if I didn't have a family I would, I would literally be working day in and day out. You referenced like it's remarkable thinking about it from that context, like 400 subscribers, a basketball card fanatic to you're creating you know, a 90 second reel that's getting seen by 40,000 people. And like you have really built your brand around these stories and these reels. And yeah, at the end of it like you're pointing people to this card being available for at auction. But like you are taking the time to share narrative and context which is, I don't know if anyone's told you this, but I'm so fascinated by the fact that like in this attention economy, in the short form mode where everyone's like just doom scrolling like you have somehow found a way to slow even that form of content down to a story and a snack size bite that gives you the picture that you need. And I'm, I'm curious on like I want to talk about that. Like you, you're a re, you're ident, self identified, real maker and it's, it's a growing space in this hobby. But like you're really the first person I can remember like being very consistent with doing it and it's around specific cards and it's, you know, we all have these auctions that go on all the time and monster cards but we don't slow down and tell the story of these cars. And of course, of course like with your show cross hobby and the reels, like you're, you're doing that, you're telling the story. But I'd love to know like how this started, like how did you get good at this? Like when did this begin? Because I imagine like this is a key piece of like you being able to do this full time. One of the last things I did at PWCC before I left was I took my first shot at one of these and it was before I even knew that anybody was being Laid off or anything. So there was a card that was at auction. It was like a. It was a 2012 Prism Silver or something. And I was like, you know what? I don't think people realize how much rarer 2012 silvers are than these other years. I wonder if I could graphically do that. And so I asked. I asked you. One of your friends, Nick from the Wharf, was like, how do you make these real things? Because Nick was making some of them for some of his clients when he was at pwcc. And he's like, well, here's some software that I've used, and here's some other software that I've used. And I was like, that's it. And he's like, yeah, just go try to do this and that. And I was like, all right, let's just see what happens. And so I. So I tried to put this thing together, and I. And I finished it. And Brandon, who's the head of content at pwcc, he's like, adam, this is actually pretty good. Like, and I think he was surprised because, like, we'd not tried anything like that before. He's like, this is pretty good. And so we posted it, and, like, it got, like. Got like 18,000 views, like, the first couple of days. And I was like, this is cool. Like, we did really good here. And then I was like, I wonder if I could tell a story about. And I did a story about, like, about, like, do you remember the. The Uncle Jimmy baseball card find? It was like, all the autographed Babe Ruth cards. There was one of those cards at auction, and I was like, that's a really cool story. I want to tell that. And the pwcc team was like, we need to tell stories about these three cards. And I was like, okay, but this story right here is really good. We should tell this story, because people are going to love this. And so they were like, okay, do these three and then do this one. I was like, cool. So I did it, and it was the first thing that we'd ever had that blown up on TikTok. Like, literally, it was like the second reel I'd ever done. And it got like. Like a million views on TikTok. And we'd never gotten anything but, like, over a thousand views, 1500 views or something like that. And it was like, huh. I think I'm good at this. I think I know how to do this. I think I get why. And this, again, this is like, if I have. If I had to say, like, here's what the Thing is, that was like my superpower. It was that. And this goes back to the Scottie Pippen story. Like, I've always understood because I love cards, like what stories are that are really fun for collectors. And so where a lot of people try to come into the real space sort of being like, hey, I know how to make content. Let me see if I can tell a story. I'm like the opposite. I know the stories. I can see a card and know it in like two seconds. Or sometimes it takes some research to understand like what, what might be cool. In fact, I had a neat story that I came across yesterday as I was, as I was researching. But like, I take that and then figure out like how to, how to tell the story. And technically I am not very good at that. But I do think that the story itself is the more important part that people care about. And I've really tried to like double down on that. And I feel like that's worked. I feel like it's worked, but it doesn't always. There's times where I'm like, this story is amazing. Like I did one on a check signed by, or not a check, a business card signed by Babe Ruth. It was like my favorite reel I'd ever done. I took hours seriously, spent like 20 something hours on this, this reel. Brett, like 20 something hours on a, on a one minute reel. And something like 8, 000 people watched it. So, you know, I don't, I don't really know what I'm doing, but some, sometimes, sometimes things work out the way that I think they will and sometimes, sometimes they don't. When, when did you realize that that format could be something that you could be working on and could support your family? And I guess what I'm, I'm interested in, like, when did you realize, like that was sustainable enough for it to be something that you prioritized your time and not and, and, and using that as a product to then go to other businesses and say, I, I can do this for you too. Like, how, how did that all take shape? Probably when Brandon was like, hey, don't, don't leave us. Totally. We need you to continue to do these, these are really good pieces of content you're doing. And I was like, oh cool. Like I can make a good portion of what I need to make from this small amount from pwcc. And then if I could just do this for a few other people. So I looked at my wife and I was like, hey, we don't have health insurance anymore. How do we do this. So she went back to work for a little while, and then I did this other stuff. And, you know, like, she's a nurse. And so it sort of. It made sense. It was good timing for that, too. But then as the months went by, I was like, man, like, there's. There's some real demand for this. And I'm just going to keep doing it. I'm going to keep trying to try to do these things for people. And most of the places that I did it for were like, after we did it once, they were like, hey, can we do that again? And so I just kept trying to do it. And honestly, Brett, like, I've had a lot of people since. Since then ask me, like, hey, what's next for you? And I've had a couple clients who are like. Or not clients, but a couple people who are big collectors who are like, hey, can I give you funding so you can create a business around this? I'd like you to show other people how to do this. I'd like for you to create this, like, thing. And I don't know how to do any of that. I have no idea. I have no clue. What I know is that I like. I love it. Like, when we finish today, I'm gonna go. I'm gonna go tell another story about a card that. That's coming up at the Fanatics premiere. And it's. I'm. I'm gonna post it tonight, and I'm, like, excited to write it. I'm excited to record it. The whole thing will probably take me five, four or five hours to do the whole thing from beginning to end. Maybe more, maybe a little bit less. But, like, I realized, you know, that. That that was something that other people wanted. And I've just tried to. Just tried to do it in ways that are helpful for people. And, um, you know, I. Sometimes people will message me and they'll say, hey, can you do this for me? And sometimes it's like, it's not a good story, and I don't like it, and so I just don't do it. That happens. Happens kind of a lot. But if there's a story, and I think this is one of the things that I ask. This is going to sound a little bit altruistic, but it's true. I try to ask, like, could this story influence somebody who's, like, outside the hobby, outside our hobby community to go, oh, you know what? That's pretty cool. Like, I like that. I want to go learn about it. I like to think and I don't know if this is true because it's hard to measure, but I like to think that what I'm doing is not just for our ecosystem. It's for people who are outside our ecosystem to sort of learn about what we're doing. And so in that way, I hope I'm part of the growth that we're. That we're seeing. I don't know if I am, though. I have no clue. I have no way to measure that. And that's one thing that's tough about marketing today, is so much marketing is measurable. But what I do, nobody really knows whether it's met, whether it's. It's. It's good or not. What I can say, and I can say this definitively, is I have never paid for followers or like views. I've never boosted it. I've never done any of those things, not once. And I do get the sense that some. There's some bigger accounts out there probably have done a lot of that stuff. And like, I don't know that, though. I don't know that, to be clear. I really don't. I just, I want to make stories that will appeal to. Broadly to even sports collectors. And I think it's resonated with some people. And for other people, though, you know, a lot, A lot of people are still bothered by it. Some people will get to the end, and you were nice about how you said it, but some people will get to the end of a reel and they'll be like, oh, this was just an ad. I hate that you did this ad and you made it tricky. And I'm like, man, I'm not trying to trick anybody. I'm just trying to tell some. Do something that you're going to like. Sorry, that it was an ad, I guess, you know, do you find that one of the things when I went off on my own, I was concerned about was this perception around working with hobby businesses like ebay and how people would think about me as an individual because I built all this content basically for free. It cost me money. Like I would pay someone to help it make sound good. And I wasn't making a dime and then went off on my own and partnered with companies like ebay and, you know, have made this a business and sustainable career for myself. But you. It wasn't without trepidation on my side. Like, is. Has that ever been like, the hobby is so judgmental at times. But there's also like this desire for people to be entrepreneurs, like on the dealer side in Hobby shops. But like, as a content creator in the space, it's also new. Like, was. Was that. Has that ever been a concern for you and like, how to navigate it, especially since you built like, your platform in an organic way? Yeah, you, you and I live the same life in this way. Like 100%. Like I and I, and I'm like, this is a character flaw, but I'm way too much of a people pleaser. I hate it when people are upset with the things that I'm doing or whatever. Like, I don't. It's not a good thing. It genuinely is not a good thing that I care as much as I do about what other people think. So I often allow myself to think when I'm making a decision. Like, what would so and so say? So and so who's like a critic, you know, And I've tried to just like, do that less. Right. I've tried to like, not think about the critics or the haters as much, you know, especially as the content has been more and more viewed. I feel like that's important. You have to realize that every. And I, and I know that this, what I'm about to say is true, but I still struggle with it. Every great, every great thing that people have tried to do has been really, like, picked apart and people have received great deals of criticism for them. But you have to, you have to follow and do the thing that you think is right and, and, and good. And you have to just live with the results. You have to use the best. You use your brain to make the very best decisions you can and realize that some people are gonna hate you. And like, and that's, that has been a real struggle for me. But then on the other side of it, you know, when I make a, when I make an episode these days of across the hobby, I look at it afterwards. The average one of those videos these days gets about 500 hours of watch time. And it's not unbelievable. Like, a lot of shows do so much more than that. But, like, I'm literally providing 500 hours of free entertainment. And like, some people are going to be super critical about it. The vast majority of those people are not. They're thrilled to be able to just do their free stuff. Some people don't appreciate it, I'm sure, but like, some people really do. And so that brings me joy, you know, knowing that, like, there's people who are like, thank you for doing this. Thank you for sharing what you know. Thank you for sharing your experiences. I love to hear your perspective and so, you know, there are always going to be the haters, but then on the other side of it, I think there are people. And dude, this is word for you too. There are people who are really grateful, you know, for what you do, Brett. They, they're grateful for the shows that you put together. And you might get stuck sometimes on that person who leaves you sort of a thorny message, but just let, just let them go be miserable because it probably will be. And hopefully they, they, they get better at some point. Hopefully you can help them be better, but you can't worry too much about them. What, what, what's your evaluation of like, the current content landscape in the hobby and like, your place in it? Like I mentioned when there was Kyle Wax Museum, you, House of Jordan, I mean, when I first there cardboard conical, there wasn't a lot. And now it's. You've got people, like, talked to Jeremy last week or a couple weeks ago. He's building a business around content. You're building a business around content. Like, there's so much opportunity to do it. Although I will say it's not. Like you can just say, I'm going to do this this day. Like, my advice to anyone would be like, you got to build your brand and you got to make the right connections in order to be able to do this. Like, it doesn't just happen overnight. But like, I would love your opinion on that. Like, we have people making great money to support their family by talking about cards right now. Like, do you, like, what is your evaluation of just like the ecosystem of content and just the opportunities in the industry right now? Remember early, earlier in the episode when you said like 8 out of 10 people, or how do you say it, something like 8 out of 10 people are doing things that I just don't really appeal to me at all. Yeah, I feel the same way. Like most of the things that are out there in terms of every element of the hobby, it's almost like we're not even in the same hobbies. You know what I mean? Yeah. Like, I was at, as a, There's a couple months ago I was at church and this guy was like, so you're in a basketball card time? I'm like, yeah, I'm into basketball cards. And he's like, so cool. He's like, my dad is in the basketball cards. And I was like, oh, cool. He's like, you work, you work in the hobby. Are you a breaker? And I was like, no. Like, no, I'm not a breaker. And I was like, no, not that there's anything. Not that there's anything wrong with that. There's nothing wrong with being a breaker, but, no, I'm not a breaker. Like, no, I would not want to be a breaker. What I do is, like, so much. I got, like, defensive. I was like, adam, take a step back. He's evaluating what you're saying from his lens. Right. And that's the answer to your question. Brett. I don't understand what a lot of people are doing or how they're doing it. Very much in my lane and loving what I do. And I'm like, I said, I'm just going to do it for as long as I can, but I think it's cool that other people can. And I think that it all works together in an ecosystem that I just don't generally understand. I understand my part of it, and I think I'm just going to sort of be content with that. But the older that I get, the more that I realize I don't understand the whole picture about a lot of things, you know? Yeah. I think Adam, you know, we're both a couple of guys in their. Our 40s trying to tell stories and about cards and the world is ch. We're. We're. We're going to be the ones pointing up at the clouds yelling here. Pretty soon, my kids are like. My kids are like, what's going to happen with jobs and AI, dad? And I'm like, I have no idea. I hope I can keep doing what I'm doing until you guys are old enough to figure that out. But, like, I don't know what's going on. Totally. I know we're up on time, but I want just one more question before I let you get out of here. I'm curious. Like, you have done a lot podcast, you've worked for a business in the hobby, you're done magazine, you've done reels, working independently. Like, you've spent a lot of time creating in this space, meeting people, connecting, learning about cards. Like, has. How has any of this, like, working professionally in this space? How has this changed your view on collecting or what you collect? Or has. Has it not changed anything at all? I. I don't know that it's really changed very much. The companies are pretty much what I think I always sort of expected they were. I think most of the people who. Everybody who I've worked with is so good. They're all good. And people are like, this grading company is this way. And I'm like, I don't think you're right about that. I think they're good. I think they're just trying to build a business. I don't know anybody in the hobby where I'm like, that's a. Like. I guess I shouldn't say that. Like, there's people who do bad things, right? They trim cards and they steal and they shill. They do all these bad things, and we hear about those things from time to time, and we let those things become the whole story. But for the most part, I think, you know, the bad stuff is pretty limited. I worry about gambling. I worry about gambling a lot. You know, I think. I think that the line between collecting and gambling can be pretty thin. I wrote an article once for BCF that was called. I don't remember what it was called. It was basically, it was about two guys that I saw when I worked at House of Cards in Salt Lake who really lost everything because of cards. And I worry that we will not focus on those things as much as we ought to, because, frankly, if we can get some of that stuff out, if we can understand sort of the dangers of breaking and. And the dangers of even buying, you know, singles and stuff, there's a lot of danger out there. If we can understand those things and make. Make people aware of that, I think that's a good thing. And I think we should talk about those things a lot. But no, I. I am. You know, I think that. That the hobby community is an awesome place to be, and being able to work in it the way that I have has been really fun. And I never dreamt. I mean, I like, I never dreamt. A few months ago, I got to serve. I didn't actually end up getting to go to trial, but I got to serve as an expert witness for a multimillion dollar card case. I've gotten to work with most, like, a lot of the big companies. I've gotten to tell stories about $13 million cards. I've got, like, I just can't believe some of the cool things that, like, it's opened me up to, and I'm really grateful for it, and I just don't have anything but positive things to say. It's been an awesome journey, and I hope, I hope that it just keeps going and I'm here in 20 years. It's still doing something similar to what I'm doing right now. You and I both. You can follow him at the real 27 guy across the hobby on the YouTube. Adam, always great catching up. Appreciate all of the insight and passion you brought to the conversation. Looking forward to doing this again down the road. Keep crushing it, man. You are. You are killing it. Keep doing your thing. Always enjoy the conversations with Adam. A man of passion, ton of insight and industry knowledge. I learned a thing or two. Hopefully you did too. Make sure you're subscribed to hobby jobs. We'll be back with more passionate profession. Shout out ebay. Take care. Talk to you soon.