Season 5 Ep 39 Justin Steele Joins The Ballcard Show

Hello, and welcome to the Ball Card Show, The Sports Podcast. For The Sports Collector. I'm Jason Otero. I'm Gary LeMaster. And this is season five, episode 39. Almost to the big four. Almost to the 40th episode of the year, coming off of a really fun weekend, we had a really fun show. Grove City Card Fest was a blast. Great turnout. I know the last show that was at Grove City, people were like, ah, man, what's going on? It was banging. It was steady. It got going and it didn't stop. You got to sit down for about 10 minutes at one point. Oh my God, I was so sore when I got home. Our house is three levels, and my space, my office, my man cave is all downstairs. And I made it down the stairs fine, but when it was time to come back up the steps, my body was like, I don't know about this. My favorite was rolling into the show, got my dolly, start to lose everything. It's raining. Showcase. It's been raining pretty heavily. And it does like the slow fall where everyone in the parking lot gets to see it. It's falling so slow, so you just have to watch the rest of it. But fast enough that you can't get there to stop it. Oh, well, that's a given. At this point, given your stature and physical ability, sir, and the physics of it. But yeah, no, great weekend. One show last week, and then today we've got a really, really special one for you. We have an interview coming up in just a few that you're not going to want to miss. Just absolutely pumped about it today. And then two big stories that we want to talk about. One that's one everyone's talking about, and honestly, we're going to push back on one of the most liked guys in the hobby today. Little bit. We're going to push back. It's in love, but a little bit. Somebody could have a different opinion. Yep, about to. We're about to. Coming for you. All right, so let's jump in. Meat and potatoes. I made a short little post that wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. If you guys saw that video, but Dr. James Beckett in his podcast, which, by the way, I love that he does a biweekly now that we know that that means both every other week and also twice a week, a week show that they're usually like they're breaking the parts 15 to 20 minutes. Kind of good structure. Great conversation. But holy hell, this was something what you texted me and you said, listen to this. Right now. And tell me if he said what I think he said. I listened to it three times before making it really suck in. I didn't hear that right now. That's not what he's saying. But sure enough, Dr. James Beckett is a proponent of showbidding as long as you pay for it. Yeah. If you are and if you're watching this or listening to this and you don't know who Dr. James Beckett is, welcome to the hobby. The original founder of Beckett Magazine and Beckett Price Guides, which were a yearly price guide before they became a magazine, and then founded Beckett Grading Services. One of the Mount Rushmore names in hobby history is Dr. James Beckett. And for him to bring someone onto his show who was named Patrick Ryan. Yes. Is that it? Yeah. Patrick Ryan. I call this show Saving Private Ryan. Who was shillbidding a card of his own, got caught doing it, and then they spent the next 30 minutes. Defending it. Not only defending it, but encouraging it and calling it defensive shillbidding. Because all you're trying to do is create a false reserve. All right. Let's back it up. Let's back it up. Let's back it up before we go that deep with it. Okay. So I understand there are going to be many definitions out there of what shillbidding actually is. What's the Gary LeMaster definition of shillbidding? Shillbidding is bidding on a card with the sole intent and purpose of driving the price of the card up. Okay. It doesn't matter what the end result is. That is what a shillbid is. It is somebody who is trying to inflate the end price of an auction. Is that correct? No. So they're engaging in it. Whether they have intentions to pay or not pay, they are raising the price of an item that is theirs. Is that how you would define it? It doesn't even have to be theirs. If they are intentionally bidding with the purpose of raising the end price, that is what a shillbid is. Oh, so you could shill something that's not even yours. Of course you could, because at the end of the day, when you're buying something at auction, your hope is that you're going to get a good deal on it, right? Now why would somebody want to shill cards? Well, according to Dr. James Beckett, smarter man than I am, more degrees, more track record, and honestly, he's been pretty good in the industry over the years. He's got a good track record. But it's more about protecting the card from a bad auctioneer or platformer, maybe a typo. This is wild. Cards need to be protected. Their values need to be protected. We don't want cards to sell too low just because of, wait a second, this sounds exactly like shillbidding. Yeah, this is wild behavior. This sounds exactly like shillbidding. Wild behavior, and the idea that, and this is what's crazy, since this has come out and since there's been massive pushback, it's just been a double down, an absolute double down. What was crazy was this Patrick Ryan guy was like, yeah, I just was in this auction and I saw a card and I had no idea it was, shut up. The idea that you- My favorite quote, Dr. Beckett, he was explaining that and he said, remember what you're saying? He's like, well, I'm not trying to shill it up because at that price, I'd be a buyer. On my own card. It's crazy how that works. Then for him to go on and say multiple times, yeah, I've done this for my friends at this auction house and this auction house. Wow. Yeah. I mean, and they're not talking about, listen, okay, understand, now this happens at all levels. Imagine, hold on for a second. Imagine doing this at a show. I walk up to your table. Somebody has a Joe Burrow PSA 10 rookie, right? Yep. I own a Joe Burrow PSA 10 rookie. Let's say they're both silvers and let's say that they were $500. Don't look at it. I'm just throwing out numbers here. They were worth $500 and there's a buyer next to me that's already been talking to you. And then he jumps in and says, I'll give you $350. And as you're entertaining the offer, knowing you that's a hard pass, but just hypothetically speaking, they say $350. I have to jump in the middle of that conversation and say $450 because my job as a collector is to defend the value of that card. And if I believe that that Joe Burrow silver is 500 bucks, then I'm, I mean the hobby needs me to do it. And all these goofy dealers, they don't need the money right now. Wonder why that doesn't happen at shows and only happens in online marketplaces. The other thing about the interview that was great was that the Patrick Ryan guy that was really sorry for his actions just made a point of pointing out like, I mean, it's not like I'm one of the poors. Yeah. It's like, I'm just spending so much that I have no way of knowing. I'd buy my own cards. I love them so much. It was 30 minutes of wild admissions of awful behavior. And who got brought into the mix? Pwcc, Heritage, Probstine, and then Probstine later was like, keep my name out your mouth. He's like, I just, I just wrote this wave out. I'm launching my own tool called Snipe. That was the other part of the conversation that was wild too. They were very upset that auction houses that will have extended bidding allow people who didn't bid in the regular portion of bidding to then bid in the extended bidding. Because then, you know, you might get sniped. They want both sides of this. They want to protect the value of their cards, but they also want to buy stuff cheap as humanly possible. It was mind numbing, the level of hypocrisy, lack of self-awareness. This is clear. Like, Hey, here we go. Conspiracy theory. That's all the ball card show does. We're going to get into that in a minute. Like clearly when we're putting on a tinfoil hat, no humor involved, it's satire, but also maybe listen to the words we're saying, but I am just so, what was I saying? I got so ticked off. I can't even remember. I don't know where you were going with it. Oh, conspiracy theory. Yeah. They were so comfortable with the conversation. Yes. That means this has been happening for a minute and it's not just them. If these people are all calling each other, talking about it, one of the examples was Dr. Beckett was submitting for a friend, a collection. I can understand certainly helping that out, right? Sure. Yeah. Our friend is Dr. Beckett. Can you help us sell this? That's all logical. It makes perfect sense. He goes to the auction house and says, now I'm submitting these, but can I bid on some of these? Because I'd be a buyer at that price. I just want to protect this for the family that's trying to sell the cards. Here's what's crazy. He followed that up with, I mean, I told these people they would get at least this much for these cards. Right. Here's an idea. Crazy idea. Buy the damn cards from those people for that price and then you can see whether you can make some money on those cards when you put them up to auction. Well, I'm sure that's a little more complicated because it could be that he doesn't want to, that could create a dynamic if it was a family friend of like, is he getting the full value for us and all that kind of stuff. You shouldn't be promising people things. At the end of the day- Well, if you know the guy that owns the auction house and you just- An auction is inherently a risk. You are choosing to take an item that you own and let the actual free market decide what it's worth in that moment. Sometimes it's worth more than you think and sometimes you get kicked in the teeth. Kind of like what we do on Whatnot, every single week we start things at a dollar and they sell for what they sell for and sometimes we're really happy and sometimes I go home and cry. It's just how it works. Well, I guess the way it works is like if you don't like how that's going and you don't like Beckett and them showbidding, the sentiment with those in the hobby is just maybe you just can't hang. If you're not going to show, maybe you can't hang. We're headed there. You want to? Let's head there. All right. We haven't done this yet, but it was due at some point. Somebody at Sports Card Nonsense is going to say something that we don't agree with and we're going to let them know because nobody's off the hook if we feel like somebody has a terrible take. Facts. And this week was one of those weeks. We're going after Alex, Clever Cuban Card, which if you'd have given me a lineup of names six months ago of somebody that we would maybe be like, oh, bad take, definitely don't agree with that. Alex was probably at the bottom of the list. Probably, yeah. So in that context, Clever Cuban Card has built out a pretty large following, really good content. He's probably one of the most transparent people when it comes to here's my business, here's how it operates, here's how much money I make. He's unapologetic about the amount of profit he makes if he has a great show and he's honest with people if things don't perform as well as he's expecting. Love the content. He's put spreadsheets, all kinds of takes, good content out there and he has a podcast, The Hobby Handbook on Sports Cards Nonsense. In this particular episode, he was sitting in for Mike Geo with Jesse and they're talking through Beckett and then they got to the PSA conspiracies that were thrown out there. I'm going to say this first. The tone came across very condescending, but I can handle that as someone who naturally speaks to others that way. So I'm comfortable, but it wasn't exactly the way I like to receive that information. Essentially, as he was walking through this, it was kind of a, hey, you're hearing all these conspiracies with PSA, guys, chill out. Take off your tinfoil hats. Ignore the man behind the curtain. Yeah, ignore the man behind the curtain. This stuff isn't where it's ... So we want to show you what was actually said and then we're going to dive in on this. I have deep respect for Alex, but I think these are some rough takes. So I've just heard a lot of people talking, I heard a specific example on TikTok the other day about PSA offers. I heard a video the other day on TikTok where somebody was saying, I had a Michael Jordan that was in a PSA 9, it's a $200 card, and in a PSA 10, it's an $8,000 card. They said, oh, well, PSA is going to buy that and then they're going to crack it and give it a 10 because then they're going to take cards that they know are going to grade well, give it a nine. They're going to offer to buy it back for less than it's worth because ... Oh, so then they're going to crack it and then re-grade it and then they get to keep all the profit. That's one of the heroes, which I say is nonsense. Do you really think the PSA is going to risk its reputation on $7,800? Yep. Additionally, the PSA offers, and I have a whole YouTube video that's going out on this today, but the PSA is not buying the crazy, crazy high-end cards. Generally, it's stuff between $10 and $1,000. My big expensive cards, PSA does not have offers on ever. No, they're not. Your ultra-modern cards, 99.9% of them are going to go down over the next year. Sure. Yeah, I would agree. PSA stockpiling stuff? No. If you are a repacker, you are getting your cards into repacks within weeks because if not, you're going to run into what Jeff Wilson had, which is he has his graded Grails and they say the floor is this amount, and all of a sudden, you have cards in there that are not worth that amount because the market changes so quickly. If you're buying these cards, you need to move them quickly, and what it is, it's mostly dealers who are upset about this, and I'm somebody who, I make my living off of selling cards. It's harder for me to buy slaps right now because I think that they are more liquid than ever. You're able to do PSA offers, you have repackers, et cetera. If you can't compete, go do something else. If you can't take the heat, get out of the kitchen, and what it is, is you have dealers who are upset. It was the same thing with repackers when they started to come in saying, oh my God, I can't walk around the show anymore and buy cards for 75% comp because repackers are coming in and spying them at 95%. All right, Gary. You want to jump in on this? Yeah. Where do you want to start with it? Well, let's just start from the first one, and we got three or four of these here that we need. To really touch base on kick it off so we talked about this stuff a little while back and I Don't know if he's talking about us or other people talking about there's a lot of people talking about it We're small like he might have been talking about us, but maybe not who knows there's a there Yeah, there's probably I'm gonna say probably probably not but Maybe maybe But probably not probably not PSA the idea that PSA Would not want to risk their reputation over $7,800 two thoughts here Jason the first one What reputation? Well, let's talk about it PSA in general What's is there anything good that anybody will say about PSA outside of one thing? PSA provides the best liquidity in the market Alex said that yeah I've said that and that's the only thing that they provide you get the most money for cards in their slabs Nobody else has anything else good to say about PSA their turn times are trash Their pricing is trash the up charges are trash customer service customer service is trash They don't have a good reputation. So let's not pretend that they would risk a reputation over seven eight hundred dollars Fun fact they wouldn't I agree. They would $7,800. No, would they for seven point eight million dollars? Well, how'd you get to that number Gary? Huh? It's only about a thousand cards at seventy eight hundred dollars. Oh So you're saying Hypothetically, and of course they wouldn't that it's possible that maybe doing this with one card wouldn't makes much sense Make much sense But if there's a couple thousand out there that are graded sevens or eights and just Became nines or tens and that are worth three hundred to ten thousand percent tens of millions ours But they surely wouldn't but they surely wouldn't do that. No because we've learned they're just sourcing for repackers, right? So they are their partner. They're just sourcing for repackers It certainly would not be the case that they would offer them the opportunity to grade those cards Because they're just buying them and immediately doing away because those don't sit around except in the case Maybe of like some 90s Jordan inserts that we keep seeing or 93 offers. Yeah, 200% Yeah, sorry Exactly, but 7,800 is not enough But if you do that at scale Over all the cards you decide to offer on that is a lot more than 7,800 bucks. I didn't want a Bible College I'm no mathematician and it's almost like their biggest repack partner GameStop is also a massive group submitter Well, we went over this back when PSA was offering that special promotion where you could sell direct Save on it and skip the line. We said this sure looks like somebody's positioning for a repack that once again Conspiracy theory so it couldn't be true and be true couldn't be true. It's not their repack by the way, Gary They're just providing a service out of the kindness of their heart. No for these other that they love so dearly So bad take number one bad take number two that they're not making offers on high-value cards They're only making offers on cards realistically between ten and a thousand dollars Weird Weird because literally I bought a card this week That had a PSA offer That was double what Alex is talking about here and I've with my own eyes seen multiple five-figure offers It's Multiple five-figure offers in the PSA app on cards So this idea that it's just the like cheap and mid-range stuff that they're buying That's Factually incorrect. No the end full stop This next to last one here is was a really interesting take and this is one that I may have had Personally the most issue with because in my opinion it was an attempt to defend the indefensible. Oh and that bothers me Yes Alex is correct 99.9% of your ultra modern cards are gonna be worth less a year from now than they are right now. Yep. No question Yes, he's talking about so why would PSA stockpile things? And he said that the market shifts are what caused the problems that Jeff had With the greater grail he was saying that Jeff sends his stuff off by the time They got packaged the comps that all dropped off and that's why people were finding product below value Yeah, the market didn't happen to Jeff Wilson and greater grails Jeff Wilson happened to Jeff Wilson and greater grails If you go look at any card You can see what the comps have been over time Through card ladder, which is owned by PSA We saw two open that never had a comp in the vicinity of the person who was advertised Ever so let's not pretend that that was a market thing But hey, but hey PSA guarantee on the product because PSA is real careful with who they're doing these repacks with. Yeah interesting there last but not least and this was really I Try to upset I try not to take triggers. It's just a take but this idea and the exact quote Was dealers if you can't take the heat just get out of the kitchen This is his argument was that? Traditional show dealers are the ones that are complaining about PSA Offering these buybacks because if they're paying strong that's less inventory at margin that's gonna walk up to the table So that's the context of what he was the idea that anybody in this business Who does this for a living? Can't have legitimate concerns with a massive corporation seemingly trying to touch and Profit off of every stage of a cards life to the detriment of everyone else The idea that you can't disagree with that or have questions or concerns about it and that's concerning. That's concern concerning the idea that you can't question these things and you just have to bow at the feet of PSA is Insane to me It's insane to me and the idea that dealers are complaining that they can't buy slabs now because of the liquidity that PSA is off Let me jump into that. Okay, please do. All right, the dealers are complaining. They can't buy blah blah blah Here's the reality in theory and in principle exactly what you're saying Alex is right. There are people that claim to be dealers that have not had a profitable month in their life They just go to shows they complain. They're overpriced. They've got stuff. Nobody wants it's the promoters fault Then they say they don't want to sell on eBay because they take too much in fees yet Alex you and we know people That make tons of money only selling on eBay, right? We know that there's dealers that complain and say repacks will make it impossible for dealers But the reality is this this is where you may be off the most if PSA is truly funneling these Resources to repackers that means repackers are circulating more inventory on a regular basis Which in theory will mean that Gary and I will sell more cards at shows because there's a higher market cap for repacks So is it really an issue of? Dealers not being able to keep up or perhaps is it that the same people in love with everything that PSA is doing right now? Could not glaze SGC any harder one year ago Could not be more excited for Beckett ten years ago when they started their breaking company I I just feel like there's so much inconsistency and you're attributing all this to there to being a need for the free market So that dealers if you can achieve and you can grow your business good on you There shouldn't be anything stopping you if you truly believe in a free market Then you should definitely be concerned that there are two companies controlling this market right now fanatics has the big three next year It's a great idea Let's fast forward three years and see what happened with panini when this stuff was going on and they didn't even have baseball Right, if you want to talk about anything in the grading and repack space now, it's PSA So your free market is now being controlled by two companies. No competition on wax. No competition on grading We shouldn't be concerned. That's not a free market Yeah, like it's a very legitimate thing to look at X Y & Z and ask Who benefits from this? Why is this being done? And who? Benefits the most from it if the answer to that second question is always fanatics or PSA Then we got a problem. Well, yes and no every Their job is to ask that question with everything sure, but our job is to point out things that are concerning Yes, dealers should have an opinion on something like this and to just be dismissive of it like Those are just conspiracy theories ignore the man behind the curtain listen two things can be true at once they might just be conspiracy theories, but if a large portion of the people who are helping to Provide liquidity in the hobby aka show dealers are concerned about these things We are we are selling a ton of cards, but guess what? We're also doing we're spending a ass load of money Every single week so that we can continue to sell cards We're providing a lot of liquidity in this market, too If we have legitimate concerns about this stuff, you would think that that would be something that is reasonable And it shouldn't be dismissed Right is that they're flat out if it does impact the dealers in this ecosystem guys like Alex are in the most trouble because he scaled at such a volume where he has to Like he can buy online if he had to he probably could just do that But his life gets way harder and his margins get tighter if he moved completely to online for something he needs shows Yes I like Alex need shows any to do whatnot of nothing but baseball averaging 10 to 20 bucks per card you need shows to buy That stuff of all yes, and you're gonna need dealers that can make money profiting off of that So the concern should be for the ecosystem for all of us in business together Alex. It's not a you think it's this Conversation that gets us fired up where it's like Since we started saying what we think and quit worrying about what anybody else said about it, which was day one by God People have had a problem with it and every time somebody has a problem now Here's the reality My assumption is that you are feeling this type of way towards the takes that we have if I'm wrong about that You probably never even seen our content know who we are other than a couple comments. That's surely possible So take take a step back eat some humble pie, but this affects all of us, dude It affects you it affects me the that can't be it because you quote you say Occam's razor What is most logical what we've seen happening or what we haven't seen happen yet because every time in this industry there becomes a Titan that takes out all the market space in the area a Huge bad thing happens in the heart, right? It's historical. It's cyclical. It's happening over and over again So maybe some of the people doing this are people have been doing it for a minute Maybe they've been doing it long enough to see yeah, and and again All the respect in the world for what you've built and what you do and the level of transparency to take you give to say but man, don't dismiss Concerns that people have as if it's not a reasonable concern and like Jason said Remember Where you get a lot of stuff you sell from remember where you started from when you got to get to that point? we all need each other in this hobby in this economic ecosystem that we live in and We should not be so quick to just go I'm sure PSA wants what's best for me. Yeah, exactly anyhow Well, you know that was I got a little more heated I was gonna I thought you'd be but then when you got into the Dealer part of that. I'm like, yeah. No. Hey, hey easy. Hey All right. I Think we need a palate cleanser. Now. It's the perfect time. It is that is my favorite uncle your favorite uncle uncle Terry Now these are the 1981 diners That's Alan Trammell there and he don't weigh but nothing but a hundred pounds there Damn best ball player you ever saw but might be the damn skinniest damn ball player You ever saw look at his sleeves, bud His damn sleeves damn drape over his skinny little arms But those arms could swing that back there damn talk to the baseball I thought he damn connected with the game on a deeper level But damn practicing a damn deeper love and desire for the game Telling the ball. I need you to damn strike out the damn better Help me bed the old bird here. I like when he'd scoop up the dirt, too During the years of 1980 to 1986 Oh rally fingers wouldn't look a damn camera in the eyes. Oh No, he wanted that mustache captured at all angles So in 1981, they'd say smile rally for your baseball card He said like hell I will I'm turning to the side so you can see that mustache curl off my cheek Look at him bud Wildman right there Alright guys So excited. We're just gonna we're just gonna run straight in this interview. So you get to experience a surprise with us Although I'm sure the thumbnail has given this away Ladies and gentlemen, here's the interview All right, guys, we told you we were super excited about this one We are ecstatic to welcome to the ball card show Chicago Cubs all-star pitcher Justin Steele. Yeah Buddy Justin is Not just a pitcher, but he is one of us He is a card collector and starting to get into the world of sitting on our side of the table So we're super excited to have him here Justin. We were talking a little bit before We even got started here when you first started interacting with our content Jason and I were both like Wait a minute AI bots We were just blown away by it and excited to buy it and but how did you how did you even stumble across us? Yeah, I think It was, uh, I was probably doom strolling on Tik Tok or Instagram reels or whatever the case may be one night. And, um, y'all stuff just started popping up on my feeds. I mean, as I've gotten deeper and deeper in the card stuff, more and more contents popped up on my feeds and whatnot, and what y'all show kept popping up and I found myself usually agreeing with what y'all was saying. And, um, it was, it was funny to listen to y'all's like, um, tidbits at card shows, like pet peeves and whatnot. So, and I was starting to just starting to get behind the table of dealing cards, selling cards, buying stuff. So, um, it was fun to listen to that perspective. Yeah, that's awesome. Um, it's meant a lot to us. And what's fun is whenever you hop in, I could be shipping a $2 card on eBay and you'll pop in while I'm down in my basement, stuffing envelopes and the people in the chat are, they can't believe it. You like pop it, pop out. They're like, holy crap. Was that actually just to steal all your stuff in a $2 base Jordan from back in the day? I was like, yeah, I guess so. But we appreciate having you. And I want to talk about you had, you were like, I'm going to get to the national this year, your messaging back and forth this little bit. And obviously the national Chicago was absolutely bonkers this year. I mean, the turnouts, the lines, three blocks down, um, just an insane show. Then, uh, on a particular day, Tom Brady shows up. Oh yeah. By the way, we're dropping the card vault across the street from your office. It's a day that ends with Tom Brady getting the chance to meet you. So explain to us what that day was like. What was like your snapshot of like, Hey, I'm actually in this hobby. Um, I have like some aspirations of, of a business with this. I love cards and then just that proximity to everything happening in the hobby all in one day. Yeah. So the national was something I'd been wanting to go to, but I was telling me I need to go to it and stuff. I was rehabbing in Arizona and whatnot. Um, and then we kind of caught wind of that Tom Brady wasn't going to be opening up the car vault that weekend across the street from Wrigley. So it was just the perfect storm of like, I need to go to this. Not only do I need to go to this, I need to crack out some of my Tom Brady graded cards, like the rookies I have. And some of that stuff, just, just in case I have a chance to grab some autographs. I really didn't know, like for a fact that he would sign my cards. I was kind of just like hoping he would be nice and generous enough to do it. Um, but I mean, the way it worked out, I mean, I'm sure y'all have seen the video. Like we're ripping, ripping cards, ripping baseball cards with Tom Brady and the crew and everything. I pulled a, uh, Aaron judge, Kate, uh, case hit in the video. So that was really cool. Got a great PSA, Tim. Um, so was really fired up about that. And then I was able to like have some really good conversation with him, got him to grade some cards of mine. You know, we had great conversation and it was just really cool to, you know, be in the presence of somebody like Tom Brady and he's really into the hobby now as well. So it was a really cool moment. Awesome. Um, with, with, you know, obviously you're into cards and there's a lot of, you're talking about Tom being into the hobby now, and it seems like more and more, uh, athletes are getting into this space, whether it is on the promotional side of things or collecting. Um, we were talking a little bit before the show about a former, uh, pro player that I know who is now heavily into cards with your team, with the Cubs. What percentage of your teammates or people around the organization would you say, you know, are either collecting or, or buying and ripping wax or anything in this space? I would say in some capacity, most guys are, and you know, and even if it's like a small capacity, like you go to Target, you're getting groceries, you see a box and you grab it. Um, and then I would say there's probably like 25 to maybe even 45%. They're like really into it. Like, um, Matt, Matthew Boyd really got into it this year. So I would say like, he's full fledged in the hobby, buying baseball, hobby boxes and stuff like that. Um, Jamison Talian is really into Pokemon cards. So like he, he's in the hobby, just like in a different specter of it. So it's really cool. You really come into contact with different people. You find out that people are in the hobby that, you know, you didn't know was before because you're just starting to talk about it in front of them. Sure. You guys trading, you guys trading cards with each other? Um, not, uh, not too much. Um, me and our pitching coach, Tommy Hadavy, like he he's into football cards and I am too, so like him and I tossed back ideas, like, you know, what should I bid on this card or what should I do here? What should I do there? So, um, he, he had, he had a really good Jaden Daniels downtown. I think he ended up selling it and I was trying to trade for him or whatever, but, uh, I think he ended up selling it. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, so you got a good number of you that are open it. Tell us a little bit about your PC. I know you're a big Buckeyes fan for sure. But beyond that, Oh, I'm sorry. Did I misunderstand? I know you're not just kidding, but what is your PC? What are you out there buying? You know, what do you look for? Is there a certain product you like to open? Or is there a player you, I got you off. I caught you off guard with the Buckeyes line. Yeah. I was like, what? I think we're just going to move past, but I know you're going to have to say something about that. Uh, but where are you? Yeah, because here's a sets. Uh, what's that look like for you, Justin? Right now, if I'm buying wax, I'm buying a 2022 UFC products. It's, um, specifically prism. There's a, some one-on-ones that are still really in play. Um, it's comes out to my second year. He's one-on-one still alive. Tom Aspinall is one-on-one still alive. There's still other great rookies in that class. Like Patti Pimblitt, Ilia Deporia, um, a lot of like good up-and-comers guys who are already champions. It's just a stacked rookie class. And UFC as a whole is just like an extremely slept on market. I think as cards continue to blow up and markets continue to boom, um, us, UFC is only going to continue to climb because I think this thing with their sign with paramount, where it's going to become extremely accessible for all kinds of fans and start watching it. I think the card market is going to, you know, start to climb with it as well. So I've been really climbing into the, if I'm buying wax, you know, chasing something, that's like what I like to chase because there's a ton of rookies in that class you're chasing a lot of color. It's just a really good product. And, uh, any 2022 UFC, if I'm ripping wax, that's what I'm gonna be ripping. And then as far as my PC was, as far as football goes, Drew Brees is like my goat, um, that's the guy that, you know, made me fall in love with the new saints football as a whole. Um, Michael Thomas with him. I just picked up a, a number two, 25 drew Brees and Michael Thomas dual autograph was like very fired up about it. Michael Thomas is like the best, not, not Michael Thomas. Sorry. Marquise Colston, Marquise. Sorry. I got a mixed up for a second. Um, but yeah, Marquise Colston. I got a dual auto of those guys. Marquise Colston was a dog. He's like the best saints receiver in my eyes. Like he was, he was my favorite. Um, and then baseball, baseball, I just kind of collect myself. I started collecting Jack Tagliolme because of how good he was at Florida. And then coming through the Marley system. He's a really exciting player. Um, not too much into baseball. I do a lot of football and UFC mainly. Okay. All right. Did you collect as a kid? Yes. So the way I got into collecting, my dad collected cards, um, my brother, all my brother's five years older than me. He was into it as well. Nothing like too crazy. Like the main, the way we would get cards is every Saturday or Sunday, once every, I would say twice a month, we'd go to the flea market and that's where we would like get our cards. Like there was people setting up tables at the flea market. That was like our card show. I guess you would say like back in the day in the, in the middle of the sticks, like it was just a flea market and people would go sell their cards there. And that's kind of how we started our collection. And the way I got back into the hobby is when 2020 happened, COVID, everything shut down, um, the card card started, you know, picking back up and I started going through my old collection, everything, me and my brother and my dad had, and there was a King Griffey junior rookie, uh, it wasn't PSA. It was some other grading company, but it was a 10 and it was a Tiffany. So it was a really good card. And I started like Googling, it was like, man, this card's worth like a few thousand bucks right now. Like, so that's kind of what got me back into it was like, man, this is fun. This is, you know, keeps, keeps me busy in my free time and stuff. So I really enjoy it now. So you've been collecting for most of your life. Uh, you were talking about the, the flea market. We had a guy in our neighborhood who, uh, like twice a month would just like put some tables out in his driveway and just set cards out like a yard sale, but it was just cards, so that was always cool. But what made you decide, okay, I've been collecting, I want to go to the other side of this thing. I want to sit on that dealer side of the table. What, what was your impetus to like take that step? It was definitely just the free time that I had, you know, with this injury and everything going on, I had a ton of free time on my hands. I was, you know, buying cards. I was really starting to get into collecting with all the free time on my hands, um, really starting to dive into like getting stuff on eBay instead of, you know, whatnot, you know, just buying directly what I wanted, um, started selling, you know, I would buy something that I had a good idea would go up and then I would, you know, flip it, started getting into that side of things. Um, and then I know a card shop owner out here, a DNA card shop, Adam. He's great. He's the man. Um, he has two shops out here, one in, uh, Peoria or not Peoria, it's around Peoria and then one in Scottsdale as well. Great card shop. So shout out to him. He, um, he had a table at two card shows and was, you know, invited me to come sit behind the table with him, bring my own cases and I can display my cards, sell them and buy if I want to. Um, I realized really quickly, like people walk up to your table a lot, just wanting to sell you their cards. And like, uh, I've realized after like the first three times of going through somebody's case and not really liking anything they had, I switched, we just split, I'm just buying, like, I don't want to take the time to go through your stuff and, you know, not like anything or like just one card out of 50. So I kind of just started telling people I just wanted to, uh, sell. So business slowed down a little bit for me there, but once I started picking up, it was nice. Awesome. So when you're setting up some shows, you know, the first few of them, it's like, you have an expectation. You don't know exactly what's going to happen. You think you have the right stuff, but you don't know what kind of traffic there will be there. But after looking at setting up a little bit, what are maybe a couple of things on like the business side that were a couple of quick lessons, obviously one is like, all right, I'm going to have a steady amount of traffic wanting to sell to me. Um, can you think of a couple of lessons you've learned just on the business side early on of like, maybe the way you approach something or what you buy or what you're selling? I mean, just anything that stood out to you. Well, I mean, obviously everyone loves the case hits. Everybody loves kabooms, downtowns. Like I sold a ton of downtowns and kabooms at the card shows just because I would either pull it in a break or whatever the case may be, or I bought it off of eBay, sat on it long enough and the football season started, or it was about to start or something. And then, you know, the product starts heating up and then you do it. Um, but I would say case hits, like everyone loves, you know, one-on-ones, number to tens, case hits, kabooms, downtowns, those are going to be pretty liquid at any card show, I would say, because just everyone loves them. Um, I had some UFC cards that didn't sell a ton of UFC cards. So I've kind of figured out what the UFC market's more online. Um, but I kind of love the UFC more just because it's more of a niche market and I could see a ton of room for, for it to climb and grow exponentially. So I kind of like stay there as a mainstay when I'm ripping wax and stuff. But, you know, I would say the big tip for card shows is just make sure you're bringing stuff people want to see. People love NFL people. Like I said, people love the, uh, big kabooms, the downtowns, the golds, the number to tens, number to fifties. Um, that was what sold for me. And, um, yeah, UFC really didn't sell. So that was my two main pickups from the, uh, the two card shows that I did. That's pretty good. Finding a more efficient channel for something though. If you're figuring that out pretty quickly, like, all right, here's where that market's going to move. It's going to be online for that kind of stuff. And yeah, exactly. And I mean, that's, that's just one of those things. You're not, you're not going to learn that unless you like put your feet in the fire and you got to learn by your mistakes. Yeah. Now it sounds like obviously the UFC market is one that you are excited about and drill it into. Is there anything else like a specific player or a specific niche outside of that, that you are super hyper focused on within your card business right now? Um, yeah, it's, it's that it's UFC. It's, uh, it's mainly what I've been ripping and stuff. There hasn't been anything else that I've been really buying. Um, especially with that white house card coming up, that's going to be a really big spectacle for the sport. Um, it's going to be on the paramount deal. So it's like everyone in the world is going to be able to watch that. Um, obviously being at the white house, like that in itself is going to draw a lot of eyes. So I'm really like stockpiling a ton of UFC for that around that time. I think it's going to like really, you're going to see a real explosion in the UFC market, and that's what I'm going to dump a lot of it. All right. So it sounds like one of the approaches that you like to take is like more short-term holds. Like I'm going to get this stuff. I'm going to get it when I think I'm getting it right. I don't mind sitting on it for a little while, but you're not saying you're holding it for 10 years. You're just, I mean, it's happening. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, if you're collecting modern cards, most of them are going to go down in the long run. So you have to buy it, sit on it and then sell it at the right time. Unless you're talking, you know, you're Michael Jordan's, you're Larry bird, you're LeBron's. Right. Those are in a different category. Um, but if it's, you know, when you, especially UFC, you got a time when those guys are about to fight for a bell or they are champion and they're fighting again. I just showed you this Alejandro Pantoja. He's the champ right now. This is a one-on-one of when he became the flyweight champ, uh, flyweight wins leader. And, um, I'm going to crack it. Got a six. I think I could clean it up, get a better grade. And I'm going to, you know, that's the kind of stuff I'm doing right now. Um, so when you go and set up for these shows, are you able to kind of lay low? Are people broadcasting, you would be, you would be extremely surprised how average of a white guy I look like most people, most people just do not recognize me, I'm just very average looking, especially if I'm like, you know, set up at a car show and I'm just behind the thing, you know, selling cards and stuff. I've been recognized by like four times. And it's someone that like collects baseball is like really into baseball. Hold on. And it's funny at the first card show I was doing somebody recognized me and took a picture and we were talking about cards and stuff and Adam was at the other side of the table and They asked Adam knows like is that guy famous on tik-tok or something? And Adam went along with like he was like, yeah, he's huge on tik-tok. Like go say what's up to him Before we go the next one I didn't get the opportunity you're good You were not a Buckeyes fan, I want to I want to I want to let you set the record straight There's a diehard Alabama fan My dad played football at Alabama in 84 it was bear. Yeah, bear Bryant's last recruiting class Well, that that's a reasonable Good reason I had to explain that a lot growing up everyone expected me to be Mississippi State Ole Miss fan growing up So I had to explain myself a lot as a kid There you go All right. So outside of cards This is it you listen to the pod and anybody else who's listened for a long time knows that I'm a nerd about baseball stuff in general So outside of cards one of the things that we've seen in baseball Exploding unfortunately over the last several years and it seems like every year It's just doing this is the preponderance of elbow issues that are springing up in pitchers Yep, and I have my theories as to why that's happening. I would love to hear yours Definitely the chase for velocity everybody's wanting to throw harder they're willing to You know put your body in not normal positions to reach higher velocities People are doing it at younger ages now That that's the main proponent to it Is there a small argument You know fractional argument that you can make about the pitch clock. Yes, there is That's just you know It's like working out, you know If you pinch something ten times and then hop right back under and try and do it again You're not gonna be nearly as efficient as you was the first time if you take a 20-second break You know like you do in between pitches You're gonna be more rest and you're gonna be ready to go So there is a small argument as far as that stuff goes to It doesn't I don't feel like the pitch clock affects me that much I'm a quick worker as it is So it doesn't really play into my game that much but there are You know pitchers across the league that it did take some adjusting to But back to the injury side of things. I think a lot of it like 95% of it is just this chase for velocity on Every single pitch. Well, I mean you're seeing sliders thrown, you know at 92 miles an hour 95 miles an hour cutters at 97. It's You know and with that, you know, you have to grip the ball really hard. You're squeezing those seams You're trying to get as much traction as you can on that ball. And with that I mean that I can Let's flaring up your elbow. That's how it works. It's not rocket science. So To me, that's what it is. Yeah, and and I agree completely the secondary component I'm glad you just brought that up is the to me. It's that combination of the quest for max velocity at all times combined with such a heavy focus on like Insane focus on spin rate and IVB and all those things that cause a pitcher to have to Contort the wrist when the arm is all the way back It just Drops all that pressure on the UCL. Yeah, exactly and just doing it over and over and over again with not much time in between to rest That's that's not happens. All right. Well, I'm glad that a professional who does this for a living Thinks the same way going to a rehab right now. I Can speak on it? Yeah Yeah Gary loves it when people make him feel smart. I just want you to know that if nothing else he's gonna walk You shouldn't have to have people around you to feel to make you feel smart. You are smart. You know, you're smart Yeah, I like myself just fine my friend. Yeah, exactly. Who was the call? No, he had a great baseball call early in the season the 23 is it slaughter or no or Yeah Yeah with the Guardian Yeah, and I messaged y'all about it when he dropped that video. I was like, I'm gonna go buy some of his autos He got caught up in playoffs and yeah the kid If his foot would stay in one piece, there's a lot to work with there Yeah, he does have a good swing and swing is nice Speaking of like the proximity that you have with players putting those reps in when it comes to like prospecting or What you would be looking at on the Bowman end of it? Like for guys like us if it's something that we want to be like devoted to it Significant time commitment honestly, so much is happening and at different levels. It means some different things that you're looking for like With you being somebody that's working in this space Do you feel like you have an edge when you're watching something when you're watching a pitcher that's coming up? What are you like? Are there certain things you're looking for or looks that you get that maybe the average person doesn't have do you have time to scout? That's exactly if I would I have an edge. Absolutely That's what you're asking is like if I'm able to watch the game differently and see different things More so than a casual fan would if you're especially somebody that's like scouting for Bowman like am I gonna buy this guy? I'm not by this guy If I had the time to sit there and watch minor league games and stuff like that and watch a guy swing watch a guy's Delivery, you know that that's like you said, it's very time-consuming and you know, I have a lot of things I'm doing as well so that's uh, that's the main thing main reason why I'm not in the Bowman mainly but I mean there's guys that buy like Jack Aglion. I was buying his first Bowman's Connor Griffin. He's from South, Mississippi We have some common common people that we know so I bought Yeah, I bought some of his stuff he's a special athlete man, he's gonna be really good But uh, yeah Would I have an edge? Absolutely I can I can see that see things in the game that a normal person probably is not able to see and Can probably project, you know a guy's, you know swing better than someone else's a normal person could but I'm not saying a scout Cuz scouts are very good at what they do, but just you know Casual fans for instance. Yeah Yeah, that's that to me. That was one of the things I really wanted to hear from you was how you approach that because I know as Somebody who has messed with Bowman and the prospecting side of the hobby for years How much time it takes and I know how much time it takes to do what you do for a living and how those two? Things meshed together is I don't know how that would be something you'd have the time to really yeah For me it's only like the guys that like I kind of know already and like I kind of you know Like like I said, you're Jack Hagley owns your car Griffin's like I knew of both of those guys I know they're gonna be great ballplayers. So just buy some of their stuff. Hold on to it. That's it See where it lands before we wrap up to the day Do you remember the first card of yourself that you opened in a pack? It would have been Like I said, I don't collect much baseball and I haven't since I've been in the big leagues it probably would have been 2020 2023 which they had as my rookie card, but it was 2021 or 2020 was like my actual rookie year, but I guess they didn't think I was gonna stick around Well, you never know who's gonna be in there Cal was Cal Cal was left out of Tops Chrome this year So, you know, he's been pretty relevant in the league throughout this season Yeah, and I don't think I was in a lot of stuff this year either. We gotta get that figured out I don't know. I don't know how any of it works. I'll put on tinfoil hats. What do you need us to say? Info hat on it's all satire. So you Love I love that segment of y'all show. Oh, yeah, we have fun maybe too much fun with it. We'll find out I'm a big conspiracy theory guys. I love that stuff a lot of that going on right now If people want to follow you your cards your car business what you're buying what you're into the content What's the best way to do that Justin? Yeah on Instagram. I'm Justin still 21 on X Twitter, whatever you want to call it. Um, Jay still underscore. I think 300 scores than 21. Maybe just one Sports card account on Instagram is steely sports cards. I'm always posting stuff. I'm buying, you know different stuff I'm doing on their PSA submissions everything and then you can follow my baseball account for the main stuff that I'm doing as well Perfect. Awesome. Justin. It's been an honor. We're super privileged and humbled that you joined us today. We thank you for your time We appreciate it Can't wait guys. It was a blast. It was my pleasure. Thank you so much. We'll talk to you soon, man That was a blast Yeah, we can't believe that we've been looking forward to that for a while and it's gotten rescheduled a couple of different times Can't thank Justin enough for coming and spending some time with us It was truly a really cool thing. I tried really hard not to fanboy too much in that situation But I it was really fun for me. Just as one of those guys as we started like saying Hey, we're gonna do this for real whatever that means for us put a lot of time into it It was one of those validations early on as somebody in the space. I mean, I had a blue checkmark. I lost my mind I couldn't believe it right you guys all know how big of a baseball nerd I am So, you know and just to learn his love for cards his business and the type of stuff that he's been collecting buying So go check him out. Give him a follow Take all those steps follow it. Make sure you follow his card page as well Profile page page profile. We're old. I'm 40 Give Justin some love there Reminder whatnot is every Tuesday night 6 p.m Every Sunday night at 4 30 new episodes drop every single Friday at noon If you haven't given us a follow like subscribe any of that kind of stuff be sure to do that This has been the ball card show the sports podcast or the sports collector. Bye now. Peace You