The Card Show Debate: Purist Hobby or Entertainment event with Dan Bliss -- Front Row Card Shows

We let the cards be the star. We just really focus on the vendors and the collectors. I agree with keeping the cards the hero. The beauty of card shows is about serendipity. It's about finding the thing that you didn't even know you were looking for. Welcome to the Collector Nation podcast. Here on the Collector Nation Network, whether you're chasing grails or calling bluffs, we take you inside the hobby. Here's your host, Ryan Alford. Card shows are having a huge moment in the hobby right now, but running a great one takes more than just tables and dealers. Dan Bliss is the founder of Front Row Card show, one of the fastest growing card show circuits in the country and someone who's been promoting large scale events long before the current hobby boom. Today we're talking about what actually makes a great card show, what's changed in the hobby, and what the future of live card events looks like. Welcome to Collector Nation. What's up, Dan? Thanks for having me, Ryan. Good to be here. I'm glad to be here. I hope you are. Are you in Vegas? Are you all right? I'm trying to figure out like, you know, it's what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas. If you live in Vegas. I don't really. I guess it happens in Vegas, stays in Vegas too. I don't know how that works. We're not allowed to talk about it. Yeah, exactly. We get the exact. Hey, hey, you got the memo. There it is. I like comes when you move here, they give you, they give you some information and you have to abide by it. So it is what it is. I like it, man. You know, I got back into the hobby two years ago with my boys after collecting, growing up and been blessed to do this show and other things. And it's been interesting going to card shows as much as anything. Going and getting back and seeing the energy, you know, I went like. The second show we went to was like the national last year. And so imagine Dan, somebody getting back into the hobby hasn't been into it. I'd never been to a national because they didn't exist when I collected or anything like it is today. Wow, what a fire hose that was. Yeah, it's, it's, you know, you should have jumped into the deep end if you're going to the Nationals is your second show back into the hobby. I had a similar experience. I collected as a kid and in fact, I became a vendor and I was buying and selling cards. You know, back in high school, I was selling at a flea market back then. And then when I got to college, I started organizing my own shows. And then, you know, when I graduated college, I got out of the hobby entirely. Like, I sold my collection, which, which I deeply regret, of course. You know, sold some things I should not have sold. I should have kept them locked up. Right. And, but I got back into the hobby and it was similar experience. You know, I, I, I started going to the shows and grading was new to me. Right. Because grading wasn't around, you know, when, when I was a kid. So, so certainly there was a, there was a big learning curve there, but it was still, there's still really familiar, you know, from when I was young. Yeah. I mean, the biggest thing I noticed, like, coming back in was like, well, obviously the scale of national kind of through threw it to a whole nother loop. But the grading thing was one, like, how that was suddenly like, you know, I had heard of PSA when I collected, like, but it was a fract, I mean, one millionth of what it is now. And then I noticed that people got a little nicer. All the, all the dealers were dickheads when I grew up. And I think, I think the Internet softened people because you have reviews now, and you also have less, you have more democratization of availability with the Internet. You know, the Internet didn't exist when I grew up. So all the car dealers, you know, you go to a show or, or the local card shop, and they had a monopoly on it. You couldn't get it anywhere else. You couldn't really get values. So they kind of owned the entire experience. And a lot of them, unfortunately, weren't the best stewards, at least in my town in Greenville, South Carolina. Well, you know, I remember that same thing with the card shops. You're right, is things were overpriced at the card shops because there's no competition there. They're like, it's the only guy in town that's got this. So unless you're going to the pharmacy or, you know, where I was from, Kmart, you know, and went and tried to find some cards. You know, you really had to go to the shop for anything remotely unique unless it was, you know, just the basic TOPS cards. So I totally agree with that. And, but at the same time, I remember, you know, going to card shows and then there was some competition there. So I thought that was, you know, that actually keeps prices a little more reasonable if, if you're going to shows even back then, because, you know, you can't overprice things because your neighbor will sell it. Cheaper. Exactly. And I want to talk about this point a little bit later, but now it's almost like we have too much information. Let's come back to that point when we. We get into, like, the real experience. But talk to me. Why card shows for you and what got you engaged in that? Well, I've always had a deep love for the hobby because I collected when I was a kid and, and I, over the years, I had a lot of experience. I got into the concert industry. I promoted 2100 concerts. I owned a couple of concert venues, I organized music festivals. And then later I organized entrepreneur conferences. So I have a lot of event experience. And then I just got back into the hobby because I missed it. So I just genuinely missed it. Started being nostalgic about it, Started buying cards online. Then I started going to shows just as an attendee and kind of inched my way back into it. And then I told my wife, I said, we can't. We don't have any good shows here in Vegas. At least not regular ones. And so who's better qualified than me to organize shows? I organize shows in college. And then after getting into the concert industry and the entrepreneur conference industry, who's better qualified to organize a card show than me? So I thought, okay, here's the deal. I'll organize the whole show. I'll put everything together. I'll organize the venue, I'll do all the advertising and marketing and bring a crowd. Will you run it for me? And then I get to be a vendor. And that was the deal with my wife, so she could run the event while I get to be a vendor. And so at first, I did most of the work myself in advance, and she certainly helped. And then she agreed to that deal. And now, now she's my partner and she runs. She works full time for front row, and we've got a whole team that she manages and. And it's now a big operation. And who'd have thunk it would have started like that? Hey, I like the agreement because I was going to ask you this question anyway, but. But you kind of went straight at it, which is, have you noticed, you know, like, I've. I've now opened. I'm in my card store, my studio's in the middle of it. So I'm in the business now. Yep. How did did getting into the business of cards change card nostalgia and interest for you at all? Like, obviously you had a passion for it. I'm sure you still do. But did it once it became business instead of just a pastime and, you know, collecting type of experience and went into straight business. Did it, did it change for you or you all. Are you able to keep those things separated? That's a really good question, Ryan. For me, I only focus on as a vendor, let's go say the buying and selling of cards. Yeah, I only buy and sell the cards that I love. I, I focus on vintage sports cards because that's what I love and I'm passionate about. I really love that stuff. I love the old, you know, Mickey Mantle, Willie Mays, Hank Aaron, Roberto Clemente, all those guys. And so that's really what I focus on. So for me, it's always been that way. In fact, when I started. Because I, I started buying and selling at a flea market when I was in high school. So, you know, I would, I would rent a booth for $7 and I'd back up my beater car and, you know, pull out two sawhorses and a door and that was my table outside. So I'm in the sun in the summer, you know, and I have to worry about rain because it's outside at a flea market. And that's how I started. Right. But I was selling then, so for me, it's always been commingled. You know, what I love with buying and selling. And you're right, though, that, that, you know, there are times where I've sold cards and I thought I should have kept that for myself, you know, because I do have a personal collection at the same time. And there, there I do have sellers remorse often because I'm truly a collector as well. Yeah. And that's interesting. I definitely have that myself. The. I guess I meant more. Let me get asked that the question a little different way. You're hosting all these events, so your job is the event. Your experience in the past with concerts, events. That's why you're great at it. That's why front rows become great. So you're in the biz. Your business is cards because you're dealing with car dealers and all that and you're collecting. I was just saying the is it changed because the business is the collectible pastime. The pastime is the collectible business. You know, like that aspect. Not necessarily the blending of the actual cards in your collection, but more you spend all day working on front row, which is, you know, fastest growing card show experience in the nation. And. But you're also a collector. As it again, is that watered out or change that? Because I think. And here's why I'm asking that, Dan, because I Think a lot of people listening, a lot of people go, man, I want to get in the card business. You know, I want to get. And we know that it's not always rainbows in the card business. But that's more why I'm asking that perspective to see. Well, you think you want in the car business, but it kind of changes how you think about cars. It's kind of like I want to sell hamburgers. And then you sell hamburgers and you go, if I see another hamburger, I'm going to die. You know what I mean? Like, do not ever cook hamburgers at home. You get it? Now that makes sense. I understand the question. I mean, I think part of what you're getting at is if you want to sell hamburgers, you don't realize that that also involves cleaning the bathrooms at your hamburger joint, you know, and, and you know, you might never want to eat a hamburger again because you're tired of seeing them, tired of dealing with them, tired. Whatever your collectibles and all that, the thing that you love, you now hate, you know, it's so. Well, look, that's a fair question. I think that, that, you know, for me, I think it's just means unfortunate because I get to work in a hobby that I enjoy. You know, I took something that is a hobby, something people do out of passion or out of fun because they like, they enjoy it. And, and I get to do it full time. Now do. Do I get sick of it? It's funny, I really don't. I mean, yeah, I don't feel that way at all. I guess I've been an entrepreneur my whole life, so typically the way I'm built is I get consumed by something and, and I've just got a big drive and I just go, go, go. So it's not something that I really need a break from or get. Get sick of. So you have the same interest in cards and collecting as you did? I do have the good fortune though that I organize shows. So the organization of a show is different than collecting. I imagine if I were like buying and selling cards full time and then selling on whatnot full time or selling online in some other way or owning a shop or something like that. Now if I did it all the time, maybe I would reach that point. But I'm not there with, with regard to the shows because look, I. I'm a vendor at every show still. Our shows are 5, 6, 700 table shows. And I'm still a vendor because, you know, my wife and we have now have a full Time team run the show. Once the, Once the, Once the doors open. I'm a vendor. I put my vendor hat on, and I gotta tell you, I'm like a kid on Christmas. I, I can't wait to be at the show and buying, Selling cards, talking about cards, talking about, you know, you know, the hobby. And I genuinely can't wait for the show to start on. On a Saturday. Yeah, I'm. I'm the same way on that thing. I will say, the one thing that has changed for me is like, it was very hard for me to disconnect from the cards. Like in, like, I had all these cards and a lot of my own collection became the store collection and certainly held back piece, like absolute PC stuff. But I have definitely felt a disassociation with the cards. Like I used to. Every one was like a treasure, you know? Yeah. And I. But having them in the store now, I've disconnected from them in a way that I didn't know that I would be able to. I don't know if that's good or bad, but, you know, you have to kind of separate, you know, business and pleasure. I guess on some level. You know, what I find, Ryan, and maybe you find this as well as a store owner, is when I find some great cards, I take pride in being a good vendor. I take pride in even the way I display my cards at a show, and I take time to organize them in a certain way and I put thought into it, and it's almost like a pride of ownership, a pride in your work, a pride in what you do. And so if I get a collection, I oftentimes will think this will look great at a show. It'll make my booth look great. And so even if it's not something that I might keep for myself, even if I'm planning on selling it, I'm thinking about how this enhances, you know, my displays and, and, and what I'm bringing to a show for collectors. And I think collectors are gonna love this. Oh, my God. I'm gonna put it out and people are gonna come over to my table and be like, oh, my God, look at all these great cards. And that's what I'm. That, that. That fuels me even, you know. Yeah. So I mean, hopefully you feel the same way. Oh, I do. You're ringing all the bills. It can be wax or whatever. Like, oh, my God, our customers are going to love this, you know, and you can find some Joy in that 100%. And we're talking with front row Dan Bliss. Everything's bliss at front row cards. So, hey, Dan, I got to know what separates one card show from the next. You know what, what has made front row? It's kind of two part what's made front row successful. But when you walk into a card show, what tells you immediately whether it's great or not? Well, you know, again, as a collector, I've been to a lot of shows and we build our shows in a way that, that it would be what I would want to go to as an attendee, optimally. Well, how do you make a show optimal? How do you make it the best possible show? Like, what do I want to see at a show? And you know, I think it's in the details. There are so many details. There's so many nuances. Like, nobody wants to go to a show where the aisles are so narrow you can't walk through. Right. That's just not fair. It's not fair to the collectors. And so we always have wide aisles, but then we have the conundrum line where we always have big crowds. So we've got wide aisles, but then there's still big crowds. And I don't know if there's anything we can do about that. You're just going to have wide aisles and big crowds. It's not going to help you get to a vendor table. If the vendors got eight customers, it is still of a conundrum. I don't know how to. It's a challenge of success as you have so many people that want to come to a show. We provide wide aisles, but there's only so much we can do to accommodate that. And, you know, so collectors are like, they want to get there first or, you know, if you don't like big crowds, you know, come on Sunday afternoon. And one of the things we do, Ryan, you're asking like, what makes a show good? We won't let our vendors go home early. Don't let them. If they go home early, they're risking not being allowed to return. And the reason we do that is so many shows die at the end of the day, even on Saturday, but certainly on Sunday because half the vendors go home or more. And then an attendee walks in the door in the afternoon and half the vendors are gone. That's terrible. That's not in the best interest of the attendee. So I think, Ryan, for us it's just really focus, focus, focus on the attendee, on the collector giving them a good show. So we've got rules like vendors can't leave early and and we have vendors that hate us for it. They hate us. They like, it's my table. I should be able to go home early. It's like, our viewers. It's not about you. It's about the collector. How do we make the show better for the collector? And I think we're passionate about that, and I think it shows in the details. Ryan, another example, we have long lines to get in, and this is something we learned. We have long lines to get into our shows, and that's. People don't like waiting in lines, like going to ride on a roller coaster, and you have to wait in line for hours to ride a roller coaster. And our lines are that long. They really are. Like, right before the doors. Okay, just to be clear, before the show opens, Ryan, one of the things we do that nobody else does, we wristband the entire line. They're wristbanded. We check their tickets. We scan their tickets. We put wristbands on them. We take. We check them in, get their. Put wristbands on them. So when the doors open, they pull right in. You can be at the back of the line. You could arrive right before the doors, and there's. Oh, my God. There's a long line here, but you're going to be in within a couple minutes because you're wristbanded already. So that's just a customer service thing that we do, and it costs us effort and money to have staff do that. But by wristbanding the line, we're really taking care of our customers. But there's a thousand different details that I don't want to bore your listeners with, but I think if you come to our shows, you'll find we've got passionate, passionate fans that travel the country to attend our shows because they believe our shows are the best. Dan, I think I know potentially where your head might be on this next question, but it doesn't matter. I want our audience to hear your answer. All right, so, you know, again, I came back in to the hobby in a very different space, like, professionally, personally, everything else. I had done marketing at the highest level. And so I had a market like, you can't. Like, you had events that. Events at the highest levels with concerts and. And all kinds of things. And best in class, so brought that to trading cards. And for me, I had done also stadium activation, marketing, all kinds of things. And so I came in with kids and a different perspective as well. And my third event that I went to was Fanatics Fest. So. And I noticed it, and so. And it might have been Reversed. I might have reversed that order, but no matter what it was one of the. The three, it might have been the. I can't remember. I think it was national infinitex Fest, and I think it was that access to the National. Can't remember whatever it was. A lot of time, a lot of the stuff's passed. The Fanatics Fest is an experience, and it is half card show, half brand activation, sports activation, and it's a different thing. But I'll say this because I thought it before I went there, which is I feel like there's an opportunity with these card shows. And I know you don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater. It's about the cards, about the tables. It's about the grumpy old man fighting over the $1 bins. I know, I know, I know. We don't want to lose that. Don't dare. We will not lose grumpy old man at the $1 table fighting over the, you know, cards that you're getting rid of. Won't get rid of him. But could we not get a little more edutainment in entertainment? Something? I feel like the Fanatics Fest has hit on something that's an opportunity for these shows. Where do you stand in this lane? Well, first of all, I want to challenge you on the grumpy old grumpy old guy thing. Oh, he exists, Dan. We can. We can either be real honest and direct like I am all the time, or we could deny that that guy exists. That guy exists. And you know, Ryan, we are constantly trying to talk about how be a better vendor, you know, and, and how to create a better customer experience. And, and it's a, It's. It's a sensitive subject. Going up to an old old grumpy guy and telling him, stop being old grumpy guy. The customer. Oh, he's always going to be there, Dan. We're not going to fight him. It's more. How I know. Could we have more entertainment retrain grumpy old vendor guy? Yeah, but, but on the, on the edutainment side, let's call it. I am a huge fan of what Fanatics is doing. I think the premise of what they're doing, particularly at the Fanatics Fest, of bringing in sports fans and giving them a big taste of the hobby with it. And Fanatics was perfectly built for that with, with their athlete relationships, with their, their, Their giant foothold in the jerseys and hats and, you know, apparel industry, which is, which is a massive. Which applies to everybody. Like, you Go to a sporting event and half the people in the stands are wearing jerseys, right? Or they're wearing T shirts and hats and, and all that. And that seems like a bigger industry than the, than the hobby, which is, you know, I think what the fanatics guys have said, I think was Mike Mayhan said that it could have been Michael Rubin, one of the two of them, said a collector is the biggest and best fan. Right? And so what they're doing by, by kind of, you know, with the fanatics fest, I think is brilliant. Is brilliant. And I recognize they're a gigantic brand, gigantic tentacles and very large things. But I'm asking more for a card show leader. If there's a spoon. I'm getting there, Ryan. So my point is, is I believe that I'm a little bit of a purist in that we're trying to run a card show. So what we do in our shows is we'll do at our biggest shows, like in Vegas or Pasadena, we'll do things like workshops to, you know, teach people about cards so they don't get ripped off, teach them how to find good deals, teach them how to what grading is like, and educate them on even technology, how technology works in the hobby. I think that's one of the things you started with in the first part of our conversation is how there's, there's. There's so much information out there. But I, but I just, I just want to say that our shows, we try to let the, Let the cards be the star. And so we're not doing a lot of the entertainment side of things because we just really focus on the vendors and the collectors and the people that are the die hards that. Look, we also do a trade night that we do. It's free. We do a free trade night at every show where collectors can buy, sell, trade, show off their cards with each other. It's absolutely free. And it's really a fun event where even people can wet their whistle and buying and selling cards, you know, as opposed to just buying and selling with vendors. And, and so we're a big fat app. We feel like that's a big entertainment type of element that we bring to every show. But we don't do a lot of the big activations because, you know, really we're focused on the show, we're focused on the cards, we're focused on creating a great experience in the hobby directly versus bells and whistles. That. That said, we're going to be doing a show here in June at State Farm Stadium in Phoenix. Which is an NFL stadium. And that's going to be a lot of fun. I mean, we're actually field level. We're on the floor, on the field in State Farm Stadium, and we're going to do trade night upstairs in the balcony overlooking the field, and we're gonna have full use of the Jumbotrons and all the video screens and. And stuff like that. And. And we'll have some more activations at that show just because it's a, you know, a really fun stadium show. Yeah. But I. I think, again, I'm. I'm sorry to be a little contrarian for you. No, I expected the contrarian. That's okay. You know, not a right or wrong answer to this. Right. It's more Europe. It's opinions, you know, like. Yeah. And I think it's, you know, and I agree with keeping the cards the hero, and there's a fine line of not making the cards the hero, but sometimes the cards could be the hero even more. So when you borrow interest. Yeah, Ryan. As long as you don't take, you know, as long as the interest doesn't become, like, bigger than the card, it's a fine line. And I would argue that Fanatics Fest went even a little farther than I was. You know, I was kind of there for the card show and knew it was more than that. But again, I kind of purposely walked in a little bit naive because I wanted to just experience it. And I was like, well, this is kind of. This is like a, you know, a massive dose of what I was thinking, like, more than I wanted to chew. Right. But I wanted it to be like 80, you know, 70% cards and then 30% of that. And it was like. It kind of was like 60, 40 cards being the lesser of the two. Right. And so. But it made me think. And having someone like you that's running, you know, amazing shows like Perspective, and I'm just wondering if there's a coexistence for those things that might even blow up shows even more, but not throw the baby out with the bathwater. I think that's a fair question. We occasionally will have people doing, like, live breaks and stuff at some of our shows. Paradise does our Vegas show, and they've actually used part of our stage to do some live ebay stuff on the stage. And that's fun. But understand that, you know, we don't do autograph guests either. And part of the reason is, you know, similar to what you said with Fnaxes, there are shows that are more autographed show than they are card show. And they'll get like a whole bunch. They might get 40, 50 autograph guests. And those are really fun for collectors. But I know as a vendor, like, if I'm a vendor at a show, we've had situation. I've had situation personally, where I've been a vendor, more or less an autograph show, which was half autographs and half card show, where someone comes over and says, you know what? I'd love to get that, but I just spent all my money on autographs. And so it actually hurts the vendor experience. And the other thing is, sometimes shows will bring. Bring in guests as a draw, right? They bring in a guest thinking that that'll help boost attendance. We don't have an attendance problem. We've got by keeping, as you said, I love your verbiage, keeping the cards the hero. I love that. I'm gonna steal that, Ryan. But keeping the cards the hero. Our shows are packed. Every show's packed to the walls are. We've never had a show not sold out of vendor tables. Never. Every show is sold out. And if we get vendors canceling last minute, we'll fill it. We have wait lists for every show, so we fill it last minute. And we won't have empty tables at our shows, and they're full to the end of the show. I mean, our shows are a great experience. And until people have experienced our shows, as a. As a true collector, I think you don't really know. So all I can say is we, we are passionate about creating great shows and great events for collectors. And, you know, we do it our way because we feel that this is the best way. And not to say we won't pivot. We are very open to ideas. We're always adding new ideas. We're always adding new things to improve the show. To improve the show. To improve the show. But I think big fancy activations are kind of fun sometimes, but I don't know that they always enhance the experience. Like, for example, for kids, we do a hobby hunt for kids. Kids 10 and under are free at every show. And kids do a fun hunt where they walk around and collect stickers from vendors, and we give them free prizes and we'll give away 5 to 600 at every show for free. And it's just what we do. And so that's our activation for kids. Yeah, that makes sense. And I, you know, I think I'm still digesting, like myself, like, what's, what's the. There's not a right or wrong way, but what's the evolution of those experiences? And I think that's. That's fair. We're always looking for that too. And. And one of the things that we're really proud of, Ryan, is our shows bring a very high percentage of new collectors, people that are new to the hobby entirely, not just kids, adults, new collectors of the hobby. We bring them in in droves. And we also bring in people who are returning to the hobby, like you. You know, someone who collected when they were young, got out of the hobby for whatever, you know, because of life. Right. You just move on sometimes, and then you come back and you're like, oh, yeah, I used to have that when I was a kid. And then next thing you know, you're back into the hobby. So we have a lot of green collectors and a lot of returning collectors at our shows, so we care deeply about giving them a good experience. And, you know, and that sometimes even involves, like we talked about, grading and teaching them how that works. And I think I'd settle just for a little food options, Dan. Like, I think we always have food. We always have food options. Okay. All right. Every show, the food has been. The shows I've been to and I. But I haven't made it front row. But Dan has invited, I think, or is now for sure, Eight to 10,000 people in every show. So, yeah, you definitely got good, Dan. I want to be conscientious of your time if you've got a minute. The last thing I wanted to ask was technology in the hobby. I made the comment, and I think it's true. Maybe there's too much information. It's less in this. This is a little broader than just information. Sure. Coming back into the hobby, I was both excited and disappointment. Partly why I'm in it, because I'm gonna bring tech further into this hobby. I'll just say that's on my radar. I. I want to hear the disappointment side, because you have fresh eyes to this, because you only came back in the hobby a couple years ago, so it's fresh in your memory. So tell me. I want to. I want to hear what I thought transparency and technology would have been further along. So what do I mean by that? More E commerce, more clarity in grading? And why more. More like, yeah, there's apps and there's digital card management, and ludx, who's a partner of ours, and Brian Lunden are doing and pushing this envelope as far as anyone, but I just thought it'd be further along, you know, like, it felt like we were. We were month 8th past the Beckett guide instead of 25 years since the Beckett guide with technology in some ways because I was like, I know it's capable. I've worked with Apple, Samsung, Motorola, Verizon, the largest brands in the world. And yes, they had large budgets, but it doesn't. Development costs, production costs, everything else has gone down since I worked on all of that. And I just thought that walking into trade night there'd be an easy way to know what everybody has digitally versus Let me. No one knows what anyone has. And unless I can, you know, eat out of a, you know, fire hose of finding the one kid that has the Griffey Jr. Rated tick, like there's just, there's not as much empowerment through technology as I thought there would be. That's that, that's been my observation and it's why my store has all of those things. That's impressive if that's what you're doing at your store. I know there are some brands who've tried doing that for, for shows, you know, allowing or encouraging vendors to upload at least some of their inventory, maybe some of their best stuff and then make it searchable and then that way you could say search for, let's say you're looking for a Griffey rookie and yeah, why do we have to stumble upon it walking from table to table? Right. Like that. That table's at B7, you know. Yeah. And exactly, you know, or that card is at table B7. Or it's in the hands of collector C2 who's walking around, who loaded his collection up so that everyone knows who it has a beacon with GPS with text alerts to say, hey, let's meet up at station 4B and let's make a trade. You know, it's so interesting. And all I can say is this because I've seen a couple of companies have tried doing that and I think part of the challenge is and I'll just speak from what I see at shows, right. For example, we had a company do that at one of our shows where they even, you know, in advance we send out emails to all the vendors. We encourage you to upload this and that. And yeah, the vendors aren't going to do it because it's a lot of 50 year olds that aren't good at tech. I mean, you know, okay, fair enough. But there's a lot that are, there's a lot that are. You'd be surprised. It's not as much old gray haired guys who sit behind their table. Well, there's a lot of old gray haired 30 year olds too. I know, but there's a lot of people that are pretty sophisticated. But I'm going to tell you that what I find is particularly in the morning at a show, collectors are so anxious to run into the show and scavenge like a garage sale and they want your hunt. They scurry to like find the best deals and they're so driven by that to almost run into the doors. They don't even know where we're going. And they're running in to, to quickly scan tables to find stuff they might like. And you, you, you, you couldn't distract them with a shiny object, let alone make them take the time to go look up their cars. Now theoretically they could be looking up before they arrive or they can look it up in the line before they enter. And, but people are so this, they're so driven to just run in and scavenge that, you know, it'd be hard to stop them first thing in the morning. But once they do that for a little bit, then they're like, okay, let me calm down now. I can't find the Griffey card. Let me look on my phone and do that. So in theory it would be a really nice thing to do and once do it. Well, I don't know. Yeah. One example, Dan. I just curious. I will tell you, Ryan, in a busy show, vendors are selling inventory so fast that, that it is difficult if they upload their inventory at least for a front row card show. If they upload their inventory onto an app, 50% of it's going to be turned over in a day or two. And so, you know, it's going to go so fast they're going to sell it anyway. I think that might be one of the reasons vendors don't care and don't put the. I was actually talking less about the vendors and more about the attendees. Yeah, but the vendors got to put that with the data in. You know, somebody's got a data entry or if your attendees had access to the app, they scan all their collection. If digital collection management was more universal, which it will be one day, I mean, it's gonna be, it's coming. No, there's, there's different services and you know, you know, somebody's got to get it right. You know, somebody's got it. You know, there's different services that. Yeah, and that's how I'm surprised it's not right already. That's all I was saying. With someone coming into the hobby like that Was my point of view was I'm surprised it's not more universal and more universally right. Already coming in. It should be there. I, I totally agree with you. It should be there because like some of the high selling stuff and the stuff that moves really fast like that stuff, maybe you don't need to bother with it because IT vendors just gonna, you gotta sell it so fast. Why even take the time to scan it? Or they're selling it on whatnot or on ebay live or fanatics live. They're selling things so fast that they are scanning it on there. But you know, you're right, somebody needs to do that. Maybe you put all your best cards, your premium really rare, you know, modern or vintage cards, you put them on the apps so that, so that that premium buyer knows where to find you for that one of one or, or for that old Mickey Mantle card. Yeah. And I think right one to one digital trading, digital trade rooms, like high end digital. Like there's I could name a hundred things that I just thought they just came to my mind like I know what capable of technology. So coming back into the hobby I was like okay, kind of just because I was so green coming back in, I put it on the shelf physically, literally had not even accidentally looked at a card in 20 years. And so but then I've been in tech and ads and marketing and, and so coming back in from that perspective, that's just where I was like I know this, this and this. Brian, I fully agree with you that more can be done. However, I'll give you a however. The online experience provides that, you know, meaning you could search right now on ebay or other platforms, other marketplaces. Fanatics has a marketplace, PSA has a marketplace. My Slabs is a marketplace. Arena Club is a marketplace. There's all these different places you could just search to find if you're looking for something specific. So if you're looking for something specific online might be mostly the way to go. The beauty. The beauty. And I think what the love of card shows is about, serendipity, right? It's about finding the thing that you didn't even know you were looking for. You go to a cartoon, you see something you never knew you wanted till you saw it and then you're like, oh my God, I have to have that. Or you think about it, you walk away and you're like okay, I gotta go back to that table because I can't stop thinking about that card. And it's that serendipity and that luck and the Search the hunt, the find of things you don't even know you're looking for. And finding good deals, for example. Sometimes it's good deals and sometimes it's not. It's about the grail or finding a card that you just want for yourself. That's the beauty of a card show. That's the appeal of a card show. 100%. The treasure hunter is definitely a real thing. And that can't be replaced by technology necessarily. The surprise and delight that comes with going to a card show, especially exactly one that's managed by the Bliss. Front row. It is Bliss. You got so many perfect like names for the thing. Front row and Bliss I, I can have as a marketer and a writer, I could have like a field day. But you nailed it, Dan. I'll say this, but here's where more of where I'm talking about and I think there's. There can be two worlds here. I don't think one has to take over the other. It's more the technology enabling a better collector experience. Right now in my town, there could be five semi lonely people that are all into cards and they have no idea that they'd all love to meet at Starbucks today and do a little trade up because they have no way of knowing who's who. And digital man, technology could connect the collectors better than it does and maybe bring them together. And I think so. I think there's. I don't think you have to throw the baby out with the bathwater. I don't think you have to throw out everything that's great about the hobby and the experience and the treasure hunting for technology to take another step towards the enablement of this great industry is all I'm saying. You know, Ryan, I think there's a lot of great ideas that you're suggesting. At the same time, the market tells us what it wants, you know, so I'll disagree with that. Dan, no one wanted the iPhone. Do you think everybody wanted the iPhone or ipod? No. I'm gonna tell you something. There's a couple, there's a couple different aspects here, okay? The serve some of the services that, that we're talking about, some people are trying to do now. Maybe they're not executing it well enough. That could be it. Maybe people have tried it and it's not working well enough. Maybe they don't have, you know, as you've talked about, the drive to see it through. Maybe they haven't seen the proof points yet and they give up. Right? And maybe they need to push through to the other side before they start to get the proof points where they get scale and it works. You know, you got to have that drive to get something done and completed. And on the other level, you know, I could see where you're going with this. I'm a huge fan of Steve Jobs, and that's part of what we do. People didn't know they wanted the iPhone until they got it right. And I feel the same way about front row card show is we're delivering a product that people even push back on. They push back on it, and we still stick to our guns about how we're doing it specifically because we feel like we're delivering an iPhone and we're giving you an iPhone. And then we're now seeing the fruits of that, you know, being that our shows are growing so fast, being that our shows are so successful. The. The collectors love our shows, and they don't even know why, but they love our shows. And the devil's in the details. We're doing all the little things that make it great. And if we actually listen to them about everything they asked for, we would probably ruin what we're doing. So we're. We're delivering effectively an iPhone version of a card show, the best show that we feel that we can deliver and give them the best experience. And yeah, you're definitely doing it right because you take everything with a grain of salt, the feedback directly from the customers, because that's the best way to go out of business, is to take every comment and turn it action. You know, you have to sort of create the vision. And not to say we don't. We don't take it in and weigh it. We do consider it. We do weigh the pros and cons and, and. And we do make changes all the time. But there's certain things we don't change. And, and maybe we will change them eventually. Maybe something will happen that we will change some of our similar principles. But clearly you're doing a lot right, Dan. My questions are more from a market leader, their perspective on some of these topics. You know, like, you were the fastest growing, you know, card show in America, one of. And clearly have it nailed in the moment. That's why I think it's important, though, to ask you questions of less. Why are things so rosy and more. How do they stay rosy? And what is the balance of some of these trends that are out there? These are questions we ask ourselves every day. We're always looking. But I think it has to come from a place of how do we Create a better customer experience and just constantly improving, you know, we're like, you know, we're always improving. So it's, you look at a show, one of ours a year ago, and we're, we're miles ahead of that now and, and next year it'll be even better. Even better, even better. And, you know, constantly improving. Sometimes that means we're adding things, sometimes it means we're cutting things. You know, sometimes that's the move, you know, it's about, you know, keeping it simple and keeping it great because you can only be great at so many things. You know, we can't be great at everything. So we, we focus on what we can be great at and then we're the best at it. Clearly it shows. And I appreciate your passion, your honesty and your directness with how you're doing things. And hey, how can everybody learn more about what front rows up to? Well, first go to our website, frontrow cardshow.com all of our, all of our shows are listed there and come check out a show. We're growing. We're, we're expanding east. We, most of our shows have been west coast thus far. Our first east coast show will be in Atlanta and we're also going to be adding Orlando later in the year. Awesome. Can't wait to get to one of them, Dan, and walk around and have lots of food options and lots of card options. I like corn dogs and sushi, you know, so like, I gotta have a little bit. Everything I need, like carnival stuff. Well, maybe, maybe sushi on the stick will catch on and that'll be the new thing. I know. You never know. Dan Bliss, front row Dad. I appreciate you, man. All right. Thank you for having me, Ryan. And you know, keep collecting and good luck on your, your shop. That's, that's exciting. Thank you, man. Hey, guys, you're to find us the collectornation.com Go to the app store, download it, you'll see the full version. All of us there. Our best content is on our app. And of course, Collector Station, if you're in South Carolina, give us a ring. Drop in or download that app as well. We got you covered. We're here to cover all facets of the collectible hobby. We'll see you next time on the Collector Nation. Thanks for tuning in to the show. Be sure to follow us on your go to podcast platform and catch the full video episode over on YouTube. Visit us@collectornation.com and follow Ryan on Instagram at Ryan Alford. Now get out there and collect yours.