The FrankenWagner Debate Gets Heated + Grading Companies Aren't Telling You Enough + We Deserve Better

Hey, guys, I'm Martino Puccio. And I'm Matt Santangelo. And together we're the co hosts of that Milan Podcast, an AC Milan based podcast in English covering everything from the youth system all the way up to the first transfers, pre game, post match and so much more. Listen to that Milan Podcast wherever you get your podcasts. Michael Jordan Fly going Infinite Sports Cards is a lifestyle Sports cards and we live now. Jeremy Lee in the building and every guess that you ever needed SP Cards after hours Keep the hobby heated Updates, homie. Talk like you never seen it Sports cards live and I could ever beat it Sports cards is a lifestyle Sports cards and we live now. Welcome to another episode of Sports Cards Live with your host, Jeremy Lee, everybody. Please welcome Joe Perot back to the show. Hello, Joe. Hey, fellas. Hey, Jay Lee. How's everybody doing tonight? Doing good, buddy, doing good. How are you? I'm good, I'm good. Stream yard made me do a few extra steps so I don't have my signature tropical island backdrop for some reason. So good. You're getting the. Oh, natural. We're getting the. Well, guys, we, you know, we like to be transparent here. We're getting the trend. We're getting trends. Hey, he's not, he's no longer Beater Joe. He may not be Rodeo Joe. He is now Transparent Joe. And it's good to have. Oh, wearing the card ladder hoodie. Very nice. Where'd you get that one for that west coast card show? Yeah, that's West Cars card show. And I got the, I got the sports card live hat. Which brings me to the question I have. Are you are getting us some swag? Jay Lee, your team here, your, your trusty loyal team. Do we get. Are you bringing us some shirts or something? What do you got? Yeah, shirts. Yeah, sure, yeah. He's bringing us the special card that he ended up. That's a new find. He's bringing those for us, I think. But the 52, the 52, the 48 leaf. Jay Lee. Yeah, look at that. Put that on full screen there, Jeremy, the new find. Look at that baby. That's the new 48 leaf. They just discovered it. There's only 500 copies out there and a bunch are going to come to the national and be given out to people who want them. If all six of you can have a copy of this card. Talk about Frankenstein cards. You know what, it's funny. It's funny you asked that, Joe, because Charles says Franken Lee. Oh, Jesse, I have two Jay Lee autos. So sweet. Yeah, I can't wait till I start seeing them on ebay and, like, people aren't willing to pay the shipping on them. So, Joe, you ask about swag funny enough, you just ruined my surprise. I was hoping to surprise you guys. I literally was hoping to surprise you guys. And I even did not reach out for shirt sizes because I didn't want to ruin the surprise, but now. It's okay, Joe. It's okay. Yes, I am, you guys. I am bringing the. The sports cards, live panelists. Not only T shirts, but also hats. More hats. Awesome. Well, I, I, I, I, I always treasure this one. And I was thinking I'd bring this to the national just for, like, you know, a little street cred, but knowing. And this is the new one. This has the, the updated logo. The one you're wearing is the older version. It's been tweaked. So this is the exact hat that, that you guys will be getting, I think. So I, I put in the order, and these items are being brought to us at the national by somebody who is going to be there. They're bringing them to me. I ordered. Yeah. So anyway, we're, Yeah, I am. Joe, I am bringing the team some swag. What about for your legion of fans? Are you bringing, you know, hundreds to sell and, or, you know, allow people to represent sports. Sports card. Live Nation. We can have a nation, too, right? Greg has a nation. Midlife Nation. We can have a nation, too, right? We have, we have a name. It's. It's a sports cars. Live Nation. This is the nation. Yeah, absolutely. But listen, I don't want to compete with Midlife Nation. That is a very special nation here over there. Midlife Nation. I mean, that is the most engaged nation I've ever seen on. On YouTube. Greg has. What a job. Greg has done over there on Midlife Nation, building his community. And, And I'm happy to be a part of it myself, even though I don't. I don't ask questions on all the Q and as and, you know, but collector Charles has the comment of the night. We don't have a nation. We have a lifestyle. Hey, there we go. That's right, Charles. That's right. We are. We have the lifestyle. So you asked how many. I. There are going to be some extras, I think. I think. Actually, let me check my order. I can go look at the text message I sent to my buddy who is gonna be producing these. It is his business. And I ordered. I ordered 20 T shirts and 20 hats, and that's it. That's it. 20 T shirts and 20 hats. Are you gonna decide what part of the nation receives those hats and T shirts? What are we gonna do? Oh, man, that's gonna be tough. Trivia, Trivia game. You have to have a trivia contest. Trivia contest. Trivia contest. We'll figure something out. I still don't have my exact time slots for the stage for sports cards live. So once I get that or time slot or time slots, we'll. We'll maybe give some away there, you know, no problem. Josh. I will have shirts as well. At our booth, we got ordered about 50 of them, so. Oh, you ordered sports cars, live hats. Exactly, exactly. So 90s auctions is. I hope they're on. I hope they're on brand. Josh, I hope you use the right color palette. I did use my color palette. I got, we got stickers, pens, and shirts. Perfect. Perfect. So there you go, guys. A lot of talk about shirts and hats, but we will. Joe, please. Well, I have a question for, for David Chase. It emerged earlier. And of course, you know, in the spirit of David Chase, it's not really a question and it's an agenda. Oh, you stop. The question, though, is, did some of the people in the chat were giving you a little pushback? Like, why would you wait if there's a card that you've fallen in love with in an upcoming auction? I think one ending maybe Sunday night. I'm not sure which auction, but like, did they move the needle at all? Did that pushback from the chat move the needle in terms of you not just sort of saving for the national and striking while the iron is hot? Of course it moved the needle. The chat are my people. Whatever they tell me to do, I'm on. But you know, like that I, I like hearing all of their responses, but. And I'll, you know, it's not like I'm out in those auction, you know, the auctions that are coming up. I, I was really just saying how annoying it is that, that there's so many nice cards on these auctions that are coming up. Really the thing that's going to determine I'm not buying like a huge thing this Sunday. So thankfully that's out of it. But some of it's going to depend on what sell on Monday on our livestream that we're doing together, buddy on Greg Show. So, like, that's going to be, I mean, I have a lot of dollar amount of cards that I'm sure 11 cards, but they're, they're, they're pretty big cards, so if I sell none of them, then I'm probably not gonna. There's a chance I'll either do the auction or the national money. If I sell a bunch, maybe I'll get both. Who knows? So that's kind of what's determining it. I have a question for David Chase. When do you want to look at you guys? That Kel, let me know if you want to do it tomorrow or Monday. Either one. I'm happy to buy the cow from you, so that's fine. I'm embarrassed to tell you what I'm asking on that, Kelly. Josh, that's the problem that I'm having. I would be, too, but it's okay. I will text you and do it because I am going to be having a 1948 short print leaf cow, which a lot of my leaf friends have been talking about, but I'm really not responding to them because I'm a little embarrassed for what it would take to get it out of my hands. And that's why it makes me feel bad saying it to a friend. I got it. Hey, please, you know, let's go. Yeah, but I get it. David, you just said. Do you have a question for me? Yeah, I do. You just said that. You just said that you're not buying any big things this Sunday, tomorrow. And you and I were both kind of going gaga over the same card on fanatics weekly ending tomorrow. I know there's. And there's some great stuff on CIA as well, ending tomorrow, but we were talking about a specific. Can I say the card? No, because it's on the premiere. Oh, it's the premiere. It was the premiere. Yeah. Okay. Because I'm looking at the weekly. I'm like. I don't ask me before you say. Okay, so, you know, I'm gonna. So you. Okay. Oh, you guys have to wait till the premiere to know what I'm talking about there. Because it's after Monday, you know. Yes. There. It's two Thursdays from now. The premiere, actually. Yeah. Before the national. Right before the national. Lucky me. Great timing, you know. Exactly. Does anybody else have any questions for David Chase? Josh, go chat. I just want that Kel, and then we'll call it even. So that's fine. You guys are. You guys are so funny. Can I make a comment about. No. Like what? Your. Your episode. Like the cards you were showing before we came back on, like, the Wagner and stuff. Yeah, yeah. Absolutely. Before you do, though. I did. I just want to say. Chad Shipper. Chad, make sure you Remind. Oh, Josh is giving a cheer for Chad. We love Chad. Chipper. Chad, make sure at the National I. I'm bringing something. I'm. Someone sent me something to give you at the National. Make sure you remind me to give it to you. You can just say, what did you have for me? It's not for me, so you won't be weird asking me for something, but I am bringing something. I'm. I'm muelling something to the national for you, Chad Shipper. All right, David, what did you want to ask? Not ask, but just wanted to make a comment about the Frankenstein, Wagner, the Franken, the thing. I do not have, like, an ethical problem with what they did. I understand with Jeremy saying that he likes it that way. I kind of went back and forth. There's a part of me that was like, oh, I kind of like it the way it is. And a part of me likes the die cut, just because for me, I don't think of it as the Wagner, because the Wagner is out of reach. But for me, I think of it as the 48 leaf satchel page card. And if it looks like that, because that there's a chance I could own one of those some days. And I think I would rather be the die cut version. So just be a funny thing to show my friends, but I get it the other way. But the main thing that I wanted, a couple of points that I wanted to make on this. Number one, this shows why we need to know the reason for altered or restored. There needs to be more information where. When we see that on a slab, we need to be able to punch in the cert on whichever grader it is and find out the reason for it. Right? If it's. If it's. If it's altered, we need to see that it's because it's trimmed or. Or whatever. Or because it was. Whatever other reason why it was like that. If it was refurbished, then we need to see the process of why it was refurbished. And we need to see the story, because if you're going to put in there that a card has been restored, then it needs to have a paragraph description of how it was restored. It's not. It needs to have like. If you're going to get that designation, we need to be able to read a story about it. And that should literally be on every certification, in my opinion. The other thing that kind of makes me a little skeptical is that it's in a CGC label. And it makes me sad to even say something like that. Just. Just can you hear me? Yeah, I, Yes. Just, I just want to take a moment. You just said something critical there that I think needs. You can't just fly by. I was literally giving you a hand because, because, yes, the fact that we don't know the story behind these items that are being slabbed by these trusted third party authenticators and graders yet they don't anything about their process is complete bullshit. Like it's complete bs. It's that there should be demand letters going out for that ridiculous light level of service that, that under service that it's, it pisses me off. Like it's so brutal that they are so worshiped, yet they don't even tell you what they, what they're doing. It's a freaking joke. It's a joke that, that this stuff gets through the way it gets through. And you don't know, you literally have to go search Google for tell me about this card and maybe it'll come up on somebody's content somewhere or you'll read an article about it, what happened. Luckily, this honest Wagner, you'll be able to find something on it. But even, even then you need, they need a QR code that takes you and listen, it's hard to say go back in time and rectify or all those inadequate slabs that you put out onto the market for the past 35 years. It's maybe unreasonable to ask for that now. I really. Well, they can't do it. They should have been doing it from the beginning, but they didn't. And now that, that, that just creates so much uncertainty and distrust in them and in the hobby overall. So I could not agree with you more. And yeah, yes, yes, yes and yes, I'm, I'm freaking angry about it. I'm angry about a midlife, Greg. And I'm not just, I'm not just like, I'm pissed because, because I take a personal offense. I've invested my life into this hobby and that's the way the most trusted industry, industry entities treat. That's what they think of us. That's what they think of you. You and you and everybody. And in the chat they don't even care enough to give you any information. Joe, go ahead. Joe. I find it particularly frustrating that you, you can't even know if it was the person submitting the card that just wanted it graded authentic or if the grading company deemed it authentic. But you know, maybe it was in a screw down holder. So they don't, you know, it doesn't meet the size or it's, you know, Got some designation behind it. I did reach out to sgc, this is probably about two years ago, because I had an SGC slab, and I wondered if they could give me any information and because somebody actually told me that they do have notes in their own database if you contact them. So I reached out, and it turned out the guy wanted to help me, and he checked my cert number and he said, oh, that's before we started doing this. So. So it was an authentic card. It wasn't an altered card. It was just an authentic. But there's times when you wonder if the authentic is again because somebody didn't want a 4 on it or something like that. But he did say there was a certain moment where they started keeping notes in their database only, which doesn't help you out in the wild. If you're at a show and trying to figure something out, you got to call someone on the phone to find out what the. What the thing was. So, yes, wonderful, wonderful campaign that I'm happy to hear David Chase is going to be leading this moving forward in the hobby. We could do some picketing out there, you know, in front of Santa Ana. You know, I'll come down, we'll get some signs, and we'll march around the block with, you know. Anyway, great point, David, what was. Oh, go ahead, Jaylee. Yeah, I. I just, you know, the, the picketing comment, Joe, is kind of funny because Boston Card Hunter did try to coordinate the boycott, PSA may or whatever, and, you know, they just got so busy, they had to. They had to shut down certain tiers they could. So that doesn't. These grassroots movements don't do anything. But to your comments, Joe, and I think you made some good points there. I feel like if any slab has the word altered or. Or restored on it, like, authentic is fine. If it just says authentic and person didn't want to get the grade, I mean, that. I guess that's okay. It would be nice for there to be some sort of marking that said why it only says, did the. Did this original submitter ask for that? Put a little asterisk or put a little triangle, some legend, some. Some icon there that tells you what it was. Why was it only slabbed authentic or was it stopped authentic because PSA or the grading companies, for whatever reason, couldn't put a numerical grade on it. But give us the reason why. What. Which of the reasons they have all their codes do that. But if it says altered or restored, there has to be. You have to understand what. Hey, because, listen, PSA identified an alteration or they identified that it was restored. Therefore they know why, they know what they saw. That information needs to be disclosed. They need to be transparent about that forever. Like, it has to be embedded in the slab somehow, whether through QR code or symbols or something. It has to be on the slab. Not just that you can phone them up or email them. That's what I'm saying. They need. That's something that would be. I would. I would greatly respect that move by psa. So we are not left guessing. They are there. So we don't guess. So why are we still freaking guessing on these things? Okay, any comments on that? David, you're shaking. Joe, you're nodding. David, go ahead. Yeah, and you know, there's also some people that might tolerate some versions of alterations more than others. Right. So it's also preventing some people to buy cards that, you know, just like how. Like, for me, I. Like, I'm okay with back damage. There could be some people that are okay with a certain version of alterations that could be their niche, that we're leaving them out in the hobby to be able to do something like that. But even against it, it doesn't matter. We just need to know the reason for it. And we need to know if there's seven alterations on a card or one. Right. Is it because they did. It came back as altered, so maybe they're going to alter it even more to make it look nicer. So there's just a million different ways to go about that. I agree with all you guys. The other thing that I'm a little skeptical about that Wagner. And again, this pains me to say it this way, because I want other grading companies to be around that are fighting with psa, but for it to be at a CGC slab, it kind of makes me just think a little bit extra. Right? Like, did PSA say no? I have a feeling that this card was discussed with multiple graders. Just speculation. I really have no idea. But I'm gonna guess that CGC was probably not the first choice to sell a. To literally slab. To sell a Wagner card. And I'm just wondering if maybe a designation or a reason that they were going to show on a slab was possibly different from cgc. Just guessing. But again, if you're going to sell a card, any card, let's. Let's pretend it's not this one. And you are. You were slabbing it to sell it. And it was a big car. That was a million dollars. I don't think very many people would choose CGC as that first choice in a vintage car. Yeah, I think, I think. Listen, I think you're right. I think that. I think this is a, this is a creation that probably got shopped around and they probably started at psa. Probably did. I mean not. And not because. Not because PSA is going to be the most transparent about it. About. There's not that PSA slab would, would communicate the story of the card on it, but because it's PSA and PSA's cards go for the most money apparently and all those great reasons. Right. So yeah, I, I also. I said this earlier on in this show when Darren was on that and I'll just put the card back on. There's the card we're talking about. But I. The. Okay, first of all, I love. I, I get mystified. I actually do really like the looks of this thing. I really do like the looks of this card in its current state and I'm just not. What's this? Oh, these are just some markings maybe that were on the original reverse of it. Crap. What was I saying about what Darren with Darren? What? I don't remember where I was. What I was going to say about what Darren when Darren came on. So about psa, about why CGC has it instead of psa. Yeah, I'm not sure where I was going with that. I apologize everybody, but I. But back to the original point there. Yeah, I think this card was likely shopped around and. Oh, the fact that Pete. Oh yeah, I do remember. Thank you. The fact that CG and this is something either Auburn or Tiffany put this on Twitter today and I don't have it captured to share, but go check out. I forget who it was. I think Auburn's in the chat right now. But anyway, basically saying that the way that this card is slabbed is inconsistent with CGC's stated standards for authentic and. Or restored. Now I haven't verified this. I leave that to everybody. Listening, watching. You can go check out what their website says about the, the requirements, the criteria for a card to end up with this type of label. And I don't think that this card fits those criteria. But I'm not 100 on that. So go check that out. The other thing is, you know, I said this briefly when Darren was on too. I don't think this card is either authentic or restored. I don't think, I don't think either of those are truths. I just don't. I think that. I think that a portion of it is authentic, but I don't think it's restored. How do you restore something into something that it wasn't in the first? If this was restored, it would be the right color. If this was restored, they wouldn't have used a different player's card backing. If this was restored, I don't think they would have started with 50% of the surface of the card itself. And again, this is, how do you define these terms? It's semantics a little bit, but that's why I don't think it's restored. And, and is it authentic? It's not an authentic Honus Wagner. 50% of it might be authentic. But how do you get away with saying that the whole thing is authentic or not? How do you get away with it? But how did they, at cgc, how were they able to reconcile this descriptor to this particular card? And listen, I don't know. Oh, Auburn says you're, you're correct. Tiffany is the correct source. They include links directly. They sort of. Tiffany is the Tiffany cards is the, is the user on Twitter X. And it's Tiffany cards that actually included links from CGC saying, why this doesn't make sense. Thank you, 35, Auburn, for being here and for helping me, you know, properly give credit there. So anyway, it's interesting and these are the things that, you know, that grading companies can do if they so choose. They, there's nobody controlling them. They can put whatever they want on these things. They can, they can do things that are in conflict with their own stated standards and there's really nobody to push back except for the hobby. And the hobby is more concerned about what, how much money they're going to get for their cards than, than, than what the grading companies are doing. So we know that we, so then the question becomes, because listen, we talk about this a lot. I don't want to just sit here and complain about things. I want to, I want to, you know, propose solutions, but also propose ways to exist in this landscape of BS A lot of the times. And I mean, just, just to address that, you know, I can just speak to how I do it. Listen, I focus on what I like. I, I, I assess the card before I even consider the grade by the grading company. And I'm, I'm definitely not right at making sure that every card I've ever bought wasn't trimmed or, or, or a counterfeit or all that or altered in some way because, you know, you just, they're too good at it. So anyway, lots there. Who's got some, some thoughts on this, on any of this here? Joe Go. I, I don't. Because I'm too busy searching Tommy Leach T206 cards because I, I think there's going to be a su. Tommy Leach. That's, that's the zag to this whole thing here is let's go buy the Tommy Leach cards. Yeah, there it, we showed it earlier. Joe. I actually might have that window open still somewhere. I don't, yeah, the Tommy Leach, that's, he's not cheap. I mean, he's not a million dollars, but he's, he must be like at least a semi star or something. I, I, strangely, just before I think it was Leighton mentioned Tommy Leach, I, I was trying to think through all the T206s that I knew of that had yellow backgrounds, and I literally came up with that name mere seconds before just to pat myself on the back. Yeah, well, I like, you know, junk Wax museum says restored or rebuilt to me, rebuilt. This is rebuilt. Now it's rebuilt using an authentic T206 card, but it's not rebuilt using, I mean, you listen, you think about restored, you're not thinking about starting with 50 of the surface of the card. You think about starting with 95 or 7% of it. So it's, it's just, I will say they, they, it surprised me when you found those two little blemishes on the reverse, but I'm sure they were probably more focused on getting a really centered card, which that one certainly has. But I mean, now, now I'm thinking about that and that, that point, I forget who mentioned it, but somebody said like, maybe they should have had maybe a more accurate representation of what the card is, is a restored Honus Wagner slash Tommy Leach card. Right. Because it's both, it's like you said, I mean, 50, 50, 60, 40. Like we're not exactly sure what the, the biomass ratio is, but it is both of their cards. And that is more accurate, I would think, than just a Ragnar. Although I guess Wagner gets the spotlight. Well, you, yeah, saying like, you know, naming it on the slab is like, you know, half Wagner, half Tommy Leach. You can't see any evidence that it was Tommy Leach. Even the background could have been another player, I believe. Maybe not. Maybe that background, maybe this background is very specific to Tommy Leach. Again, I was calling it the, the Walter Johnson portrait background just because it reminded me of it, not because I was saying it was that. But, but there's no evidence that this was Tommy Leach unless you literally peel Honus off of the surface of the, of the, of the Cardboard, which I wonder if anybody would do. I doubt it. Gord. M says remanufactured. That. That makes more sense to me than restored does. Charles has refurbished. Yeah, I, I could get behind that as a. As a descriptor for it as well. So. Interesting situation. Oh, sorry. Go ahead, Joe. I. I kind of just wanted to like, compare the one. I think this is a PSA5 I have up. Just like kind of looking at the tone. Can you see the gradient in the background of that card on your phone when you look at it yourself? The gradient of the yellow. Yeah, coming. That gets darker as you go down a little bit? Yeah, it's pretty consistent actually. To me, that one looks consistent. Right. Look at this. This has a clear gradient going through it. So in any event, David, you were wanting to talk. You asked about that card. Sorry, I think I kind of jumped in there. You were mid. No, no, I, I ended up saying my second piece. But. But just as you guys are speaking about it, there are a few T206 cards that have an orange background. So I know that maybe the photo was a little too high to just cut and paste that Wagner, but when you showed that card, that other Wagner card that was like cut up into 17 pieces, they obviously can do pretty amazing stuff with restoration these days. I think that they should have put in a little bit extra money and made the background the color that we all expect the Wagner to have. If you're going to have a card like this that's going to go for a million dollars anyway, I mean, what's the difference? You're already restoring it to a crazy way. Why not make it a little bit more like, why is it just a cut and paste job? Why not go a little bit extra? What do you think? One consideration, I wonder is if the, the sort of figure of Tommy Leach more accurately mirrors the Wagner figure. And they were so that like the background had some import, but more so the, the right shape. And I mean, it is interesting that it's a pirate's card. I don't really know. Like, it's not like you're using the uniform because that's, that's Honus's uniform, I'm assuming. But you know all the. David, your question about why go with the yellow instead of the orange? And I think, I think Darren Revelle said something similar. Like it really comes down to what the person who ordered the restoration or the rebuild or the whatever, what they asked for. So you'd have to get into their head. But at the end of the day. Like, I really think, like, who cares? Who cares what color they could have used purple or red or green? It still would have been a very unique, not authentic Wagner. I don't think it's authentic. I don't think this card is authentic. I think a portion of it is authentic and the other portion is not. So, I mean, I don't really care that they use this yellow instead of going with the orange. I actually think it stands out from the rest of them. I like that it is an orange. I know I'm in the minority. That's become obvious. But the other thing, the other reason I like it again is because if they would have made it look like the original. Now I think we're moving into the area of counterfeiting. Were almost trying to fool somebody. Whether the grading company puts authentic, altered, restored, whatever they put on it. I still think if it was made to look the same. I'm feeling like whoever did it is really trying to. To trick somebody and to tell them what they think might be an original. So I'm glad they didn't go with the original color for that reason. I think it looks cool. I. I would love to own it. And I'm also in the minority where I prefer it in this. In this shape here than I do this. This is. This to me is hideous. I think there's nothing. I have no interest in owning this. This to me, is ugly to me. Just me. Go ahead, Josh. I love it. I'd buy this one. It's fantastic. Some kid probably cut this out. I love it. I take that in its original state and look at this. Jake says, should have left it cut. You know, we've seen that throughout. A lot of people prefer it in its authentic. In its authentic die cut, which is completely trimmed and altered. It's trimmed and altered in its. In its die cut form. It's almost weird that the hobby is giving it this, like, special status that it's the die cut Wagner guy. Somebody took a scissors. Like Josh said a kid took a scissors to it. And Ron Fig says the cutout tells a story. Guys, guys. This tells more of a story. This tells two stories. Again, I don't care what anybody else think. Like, it doesn't matter. I'm just sharing my thoughts. Can we take a poll? No, I, I know the polls. I think we know where the poll would be. David, you had your hand up. Yeah. Do. Do we have an idea of when this was restored? Like, I for some reason pictured this happening recently. Do you. Do you? 90, 96. 97. I believe it was done. That makes me feel better, to tell you the truth, because if. No, it was after 98, because I think the auction was 98. Okay, okay, okay. Well, even if it was fif. Even if it was 10 years ago. Okay. It makes me feel better. I'm happy it wasn't done for the auction. Right. That they didn't do this to try to make the money. He. If they owned. If Keith Overman owned this card for that long, it sounds like he did it for his own pleasure of the card. Right. For him to do it back in the day, if he did do it a long time ago. And that actually makes me feel a lot better. When I was asking about, like, why orange versus yellow and things like that, for some reason I had in my mind that they did it to auction it, which is why I was thinking, why not try to get it to make. To get it to the highest price possible to make it look like the original. I like that. It was for himself, possibly. Right, right. Well, I also believe part of the story is that he or whoever had it restored paid $75,000 for the restoration. So you're not just doing that for your. I don't think you're just doing that for your own enjoyment. But I don't know. The whole story as written on the Love of the Games website is not comprehensible. The story is not well written. Whoever wrote it did not do a good job. It is very difficult to follow the story of this card's history and understand it. Now, if I could just do. I want to bring up this comment by Cage, but while I do it, I want to share this visual here. Cage says take the die cut off at his head and make two restored ones. Well, right. That's the problem, Cage. That's what. Where does it end? Just like this graphic by Tiffany card says, where does it end? You know, we can get into that. We talked about this earlier. I bet a bunch of people weren't here earlier on the show. But you can take. You can now take this, restore. You could now take this restored Wagner right here. Someone could buy this one on the left here. Let's go. Someone could buy this card. They could now slice this up into 20 pieces and rebuild 20 new Wagners and say, these come from the die cut Wagner with the, with the. The leech background from Love of the Game and cgc. It's got a bit of that, you know, DNA to it. Make 20 of these. If this thing sells for a million and a half, sell those 20 pieces for 100 grand each. Now you've made a half a million bucks. You got 200 grand because you got what CGC might call unauthentic Wagner, because a portion of it is authentic. And CGC is apparently okay calling a card authentic if a portion of it is authentic and the rest comes from a completely different card. Wow. Well, you know, someone did this with the. With the first Superman comic about, I think, 10 years ago. They were selling like one page from the First Superman, like DC1 or whatever it is, and it was graded, too. And it. So, so this is kind of similar to that where they. You can't buy the whole comic because it's going to cost you a million dollars. You buy one page, it went for like, I think like 30 grand for like one page from the first Superman, which is wild. Well, Josh, I want to bring on a comment. We have a Josh troll in the. In our midst. Everybody. We have a troll for Josh. His name is P. William P. Williams says Josh saying he wants the card cut, yet not even a few days ago, says he won't allow someone to blow a speck of dust off a card. Come on. Love the show. But he either never talks or has brutal takes. Okay, yeah, I mean, this is a very. Hold on, Joy. This is a. P. William, I mean, you know, great to have you in the chat, but this is a completely idiotic comment and you are coming off as a. A basement troll here. And the reason why I say that is because, first of all, there's more thing. There's more to the two comments, and you're not asking for clarity. You are. You are being a dick about it. And then you go on and say, love the show. Well, I appreciate that you love the show, but then you say, but he either never talks or has brutal takes. First of all, we don't tolerate disrespect of the guests or the panelists on Sports Cards Live. We just don't tolerate that here. Pete Williams. So last warning to you on. On how you're gonna engage in our chat. But that said, Josh, would you like to address. Because I'm sure. Yeah, go ahead and address the first part of this. Respectfully. I love the. Love the jersey, but I will say that I don't have takes. I have well thought out opinions. And you're making a comparison to apples and hand grenades here, because if I were to say I like the altered version here, you would say the same thing, because then it's the same kind of disconnect. I like the die cut. Because that's how it, you know, showed up after traveling through time for like 100 years. No one's trying to hide any alteration on the die cut. Right. That is where it is, that they're actually trying to hide the alteration by making a fully restored version. So actually he's got it backwards. I mean, he can try again. And I appreciate the comment because it means they're listening. So thank you for listening. Oh, Josh, that was very, very, very nice of you there. Josh Cage says sell it in pieces. Call it the Fractional Wagner. Perfect for this episode. That's a good, that's good, that's good. We might have to work that into the Hangover somehow. So. Yeah, I mean, I. Go ahead, Joe. Well, that's the reason I wanted to take the poll is I, I get the, the, the sense that the majority of people do prefer the die cut. I'm with you, Jaylee. I like what's been done with it. And David Chase's point that this was done some, you know, 15, 20 years ago amplifies that for me because it feels like it was something done almost in a slightly more innocent time and not with an immediate cash grab mentality, but more of an appreciation. I want to own this piece. And I would also just add to this. Like, I, I remember people were, you know, hazarding guesses on what they thought it would close for. I think the other night when we were talking, Jaylee, I think I said like, ah, 1, 3, 1 4, you know, who. But who knows? But I, I think there's also, and this is something we're seeing more and more in the hobby space is that when, when stories. And I, and I know Keith Olbermann's not everybody's favorite person, but when cards have a story behind them, you know, like, like kind of around, like almost a mythos that develops, I think that becomes, it becomes more of a singular artifact than just, you know, another 53 tops mantle or whatever. It's, it's, it's got a little bit more of a place in the hobby and the place in the hobby, the collector's minds. If you've been in this space for a while, thanks for tuning in and being a part of the sports cards live community. Don't forget to, like, subscribe and most of all, keep collecting more great content to come. Sports cars is a lifestyle.