The WNBA Card Podcast: Team Collecting the Mercury, Diana Taurasi, and WNBA Fandom with Gavin (@card_collecther)

Foreign. Welcome back to the WNBA Card Podcast hosted by my good friend Caitlin at Cold Lunch Cards here on the Stacking Slabs Network. Hope you got a chance to listen to the tip off episode of season five with Spencer at Great Lakes. It was a live recording, a whole lot of fun in a female owned brewery at a card show that was promoting women sports cards and collecting. That was a fun conversation and Caitlin is taking this season in a big direction. She is interviewing collectors from each of the teams in the WNBA and there is a fun one kicking off this season. We're going with the Phoenix Mercury, a franchise that has been around strong fan base, strong collector base. She chats with Gavin at Card Collect. Her lot of passion, lot of energy. This is a great way to get this season started. Shout out card ladder for sponsoring the WNBA Card Podcast, the official data provider, the WNBA Card Podcast and the broader Stacking Slabs Network. If you want updates outside of this pod, follow us at WNBA Card Pod on Instagram. And if you want to show your support for the broader Stacking Slabs Network, hit the follow button. Tell a damn friend. Run on over the Patreon Group. For now, it's Gavin at Card Collector Talking Phoenix Mercury. Welcome back loyal listeners, the Stacking Slabs Podcast to season five, episode two of the WNBA Card Podcast. My name is Caitlin. I go by Old Lunch Cards mostly on the Instagram machine, but you can find me on some other corners of the Internet as well. And today marks a very important, pivotal moment to the WNBA Card Podcast and as we welcome our first kind of guest collector in this new series that we're doing all focused on team collecting. Last week we had Spencer McCaffrey on from Great Lakes Trading, Great Lakes Trading Cards Co out of St. Paul, Minnesota, where we had a live expo or card show focused entirely on women's sports cards. And we interviewed him about what that's like, what it's like building and owning a card shop, and more importantly, what it's like to cultivate a community surrounded by women's sports cards and centering women's sports cards. Which brings me to today. Season 5 is going to build off of that kind of idea of community and bring on more collectors. Last season, season four was focused on era by era. So if you guys listened, we started in like the 1920s, 30s, 40s and worked our way up all the way to the incoming and upcoming draft classes of the wnba. We had a different collector on to explain those kinds of arrows. We're taking that concept and kind of flipping it on its head. And so now what we're going to do is instead of eras, we're going to do teams. And I thought a great place to start is with the Phoenix Mercury. So this episode is all about Phoenix Mercury because they're one of the founding teams of the wnba. They're iconic. They have some of the most iconic players known to the to the sport. I would say basketball in general. And I'm so excited to welcome on Gavin, who goes by ardcollector. Gavin, welcome to the podcast. Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here and talk w cards, talk about the goat, here's the hat. And yeah, yeah, talk about the best team in the wnba. I love it. And for our Patreon viewers, you can see that Gavin's sporting this incredible goat hat and a DT throwback jersey. Just, just an awesome look here, especially as you're kind of adorned by this shrine of WNBA memorabilia behind you as well. Just so excited to get into your team collecting philosophy, your love for the Phoenix Mercury and talk about women's sports cards in general. But before we kind of get into that, I want to invite you to kind of pitch yourself to the audience. If people don't know who you are, which you should, I think you were one of our featured collectors in the past seasons. But if they don't know who card collector is, why don't you introduce yourself? Well, my name is Gavin. I live in Phoenix, Arizona. I've been hardcore collecting WNB cards since really we got back into it about late 2022, early 2023 before I went too crazy. My wife and I own a couple of franchises here. I've got two sons who are 11 and 9 and we are Mercury season ticket holders. And so, yeah, that's about the interesting part of me. So, yeah, I love it. I'm so jealous. I feel like I've seen you on TV multiple times with your season tickets. Yeah, we're lucky enough to sit right next to the away bench. So it's been hence where a lot of these came from. Being pretty lucky to get a lot of these signed at games. So, yeah, that's so awesome. And we're going to get into. One of the things that I think is so special about the Phoenix Mercury is the environment of the stadium that they play in that, that arena. The X Factor is a real thing. It's really cool to see kind of just the power of the fan base. And it's one of the reasons that I wanted to start with the Phoenix Mercury. Obviously, I'm biased. I'm not a Mercury fan. We've got beef from last year. Nobody's perfect. Nobody's perfect. But I do appreciate and respect this team and this franchise a lot. Has a lot of rich history and a lot of strong collectors here. So just to kind of give the people an idea of where this episode and following episodes are going to go and is that we're going to have different segments similar to. Similar to last season, and the first one is going to be around personal fandom and identity. So why don't we start there? Gavin, can you kind of tell us our. Your origin story as a Phoenix Mercury fan? When and where did it happen? Well, I've kind of always wanted to support, you know, women's sports, WNBA in particular, for a lot of like, you know, the cultural reasons that surround it. You know, a safe space for, you know, inclusive space for. For, you know, LGBTQ and women and, and women of color, everything like that. So when I moved to Phoenix in 2010 and about a year later, I met my now wife and she played basketball growing up and things like that. So she really, you know, between the two of us, really, you know, that. That really solidified it. We started going to games locally and stuff like that. We had our kids in 2017 and 2015, so it was hard to make it to a lot of games. Then, of course, you try and take them. They can't last very long. We hesitated to buy season tickets and finally, once they got old enough in 2024, I think was the first year we actually had season tickets, which of course was, you know, Caitlin Clark's first year. So, you know, we're going on the bandwagon late there price wise, but. But yeah, so that's kind of, I guess that's where it started and where it got us to now. That's awesome. Why I think about this meme I think I posted a while ago, it's like, hey, kids, sit down. You're gonna watch 80 highlights. And it's like a picture of a kid that's like five. That's what I imagine your family's like, like, all right, kids, sit down, take notes. Let's go watch at and see what's up with basketball. So that's super fun. Yeah, it's really. So go ahead. I just say it's really another great thing about it too is, like I mentioned earlier, some of the cultural aspect of it. It's great to bring my kids there, especially my sons. And, you know, it's cool to see them growing up, looking up to these Women being inspired by them and things like that, you know, so. So yeah, as all those things are really important factors to me regarding the W in particular. Yeah, for sure. I think you can say that a lot about a lot of WNBA teams. So I want to kind of dig into why the Mercury, and it might be as simple as I'm in Phoenix. So this is like the geographical location, but does it go any deeper than that? Why not cheer for LA or like one of the other teams? Gross. I wouldn't do that. No. I mean, yeah, geographic location, you know, that's. I mean, growing up. I grew up in New Mexico, so, you know, there wasn't a lot. So you tend to the Phoenix teams, Denver teams, those areas that kind of, you know, you reach out to whatever's out there. And then of course, at the time, I was following it not quite as closely. You followed players and the biggest names in the game, Diana Taurasi and then later in 2013, Brittney Griner and, you know, so that made it easier as well. And especially once I moved here in 2010, it was just a, you know, natural. You go to the games, you get involved. You see the fan basically talked about the X factor. You feel the energy at the stadium and yeah, kind of suck you in. You kind of got lucky, I think, a little bit. You didn't go to some poverty franchise. I think when people talk about the. They talk about, like, just really good facilities, good ownership. You have like the association with the. Yeah, yeah. More recently. And so I think that it's a really. A good landing spot for a fan. I kind of want to get into your identity as a Phoenix Mercury fan. I think we all know that there are levels to fandom. Okay. Like, there are some people who are casuals and don't understand, you know, how much it means to people like us, or I'm assuming people like us. You rate for me on a scale of 1 to 10, with 1 being casual and 10 being super fan. Kind of your fandom and your collecting habits around the fandom. Well, I'd say they're pretty closely tied. I'll admit having getting into collecting is, you know, increase my fandom a lot more because there's things historically you learn about of the team that was there before, you watched them before, you follow it really closely. And now when you tie the cards into that, you know, it gives you a piece of that. You know, you feel like. You feel like you've got like Romanto from that time, especially with the older stuff with the gameborn. Patches and everything, you know, and so it really makes you want to learn more about the history itself. Like, why is this card significant? You know, why is a 2007 patch cool? What was cool about that season for Danitaras and things like that. And so. So I'd say on a scale of 1 to 10, I mean, you know, I'm a. I'm a. Or an eight. I'm going to be honest, when I was younger, you know, sports was a sort of a more mark of my. My total identity, whereas I don't feel like it is anymore now that I have kids. Obviously, things like that, you know, you tend to separate a little more. And then also, I mean, especially with wnba, there's so many other players I like where I know in other sports. You know, it's like it's your team and if your favorite player leaves and goes somewhere else, they might as well be dead to you, you know, and. And there's so many players in the WNBA that like, you know, I'm such a huge fan of and my family is all huge fans of, so it's definitely a different sort of fandom. But I can tell you there's definitely been, you know, a lot of ruined weeks after bad games and, you know, after last year's finals, things like that, you know, when you get your hopes up. So, yeah, yeah, you know, I'd say seven or eight. You know, I like the. I feel like the W fandom can be very warm and welcoming and kind of like neutral during the regular season. And then all that shit goes out the window in the playoffs. Things get real cutthroat real quick. I'm like, oh, I love the Mercury. They're like so fun to watch. I love at. I love watching this team and then we play em in the playoffs. I'm like, this is the worst team I've ever seen in my life. Can't stand them, you know, and it goes both ways. And that's something unique I feel like about the wba. It's just that heightened sense of fandom that comes in during the playoffs. Okay, I want to kind of talk to you a little bit about your timeline. You mentioned that you kind of got back into collecting a little bit later, and then you even got season tickets more recently. When do you think you realized that you were becoming a Mercury team collector as opposed to just a general sports card collector that happened to pick up some Mercury cards along the way? Well, originally, you know, one of my kids had gotten into cards, so that kind of brought me and my wife back into it. She collected a whole lot more when she was younger. I actually used to collect comic books. I collected a few sports cards and things like that, but it wasn't really a huge thing for me. So we started exploring it, and we were into the W at the time. So I was like, oh, these are being so much more accessible, so much cheaper at the time, you know, as we all remember. And so we started digging into them and having fun with it with the kids and opening the cards. And we kind of have like a. We had a binder at first. It's so cute to think back. We had one binder, and it was basically like there was like a page for each of our favorite players in the league. And of course, like every one of the players that were currently on the Mercury. So of course, that's grown to dozens of binders and boxes and everything now, as. As tends to happen. But. But yeah. So from the beginning, you know, those were the cards we gravitated to. I remember in one of the first boxes of 2023 prison, my oldest son opened. He got a Dyna Taurasi Gold Auto. So that was really cool. You know, it doesn't matter anything, you know, it's one of tens. It was the first on print, you know, and. And so, yeah, you know, it was just that. That's so. It's kind of always been there. As I've gotten more into collecting more recently and over the years and everything, I've become more focused. I don't tend to keep those other players as much unless they're really, really big cards. You know, it used to be a time when Asia Wilson to 299. It'd be something I keep in a binder. And now those aren't things I hold on to now. The things I hold on to much more related to Danx Rossi, Alyssa Thomas specifically, more recently, and then other Mercury players, of course. But those two are kind of the biggest, I'd say. Awesome. That's a good. That's a good tick. I'll say that. Like, if you said to me, oh, yeah, I collect DT and at, I'd be like, that's pretty good. Like, that's pretty good taste from a card. You get to dabble in the earlier years with DT and kind of the foundations of WNBA card collecting. And then you get into the ultra modern with at. Just a good duo there. Okay. I want to kind of get into. I don't know, I want to get into your ideas or thoughts around what makes the Mercury different than other teams. And one of the questions that I want to ask guests when they come on, so you'll hear me repeat this question to Gavin G. To whoever comes on next week and as we go through the different teams is I want you to try your very best is a hard question. But to describe the identity of the Phoenix Mercury, the franchise itself, in three words or less, can you do that? I was this one. Took some digging. I won't lie. A lot of words come to mind, of course, but I think the biggest ones, one of the big ones to me is foundational. Of course, you know, they were one of the original franchises. They're always relevant. Very rarely are they like really bad and not talked about in terms of, you know, how much WNBA is talked about. They're resilient. They've been through the bad times. They didn't fold like a lot of teams unfortunately did. And then one that really, really comes to mind for me is there's a swagger. I feel like it's going back to the very beginning. Cheryl Miller, first coach, started, first coaching gm. She started it. She coined the phrase X factor for the fans, saying, you know, you guys are the X factor. You're the difference. The team's always pride itself on having, you know, the best home court advantage in the wnba. And with the players you look at that we've had, I mean, obviously there's been a lot of great players, a lot of teams, but you feel like players like Daniel Taurasi and, and Brittany Griner and Michelle Tim's before her before them and, and now even looking like your Alyssa Thomas's and your Clea Coppers, there's, there's players that are known for having that sort of swagger and of course there's players across the that but it seems like those players sort of tend to blend in with that, you know, and it becomes more amplified, I guess. So swagger, that's the thing. For me, I feel like the team has a swagger to it. Maybe not all the teams have completely agree. Like when you said that last one, like the first two. Yes. Like foundational. Yes. They're one of the founding teams. Resilient, yes. Up and down and they've moused back every time. I think they're always bouncing somehow, like always resilient, getting back up. But swagger, that resonates. Like I think about, like when I was doing a little bit of research for this episode about the Phoenix Mercury, about how, you know, when they started they had kind of this slower run offense that was, like, very consistent with what was happening in WNBA in the late 90s. And then when they drafted DT in 04, they completely changed the style of their offense to be a running done offense, which was something that, you know, hadn't really been explored before, because there wasn't a player like DFT before, like, with that kind of poppiness and that swagger that I found it. I think swagger is the perfect word to describe not only the franchise today, but the franchise's entire identity and the fan base itself. It's like you kind of carry yourself knowing that you've got a goat. You know, like, that takes some swagger to know that and to be aware of it. So. Excellent. Three words there, Gavin. I like that. Well, thank you. Yeah. All right, so before we shift into the next segment, which is all around kind of your personal collection and strategy and how you look at cards, I just want to cap off the idea of personal fandom and identity by asking you about kind of just women's sports fandom more generally. If we remove the Phoenix Mercury from this equation, obviously they're a big part of it. But if you. If you have a couple words to say about what kind of women's sports fandom means to you and how it's kind of impacted your collecting. I kind of touched on it earlier, but especially, you know, just. It is the. Is that cultural space around it. You know, it is. It is that inclusion, I feel like that's really important. I feel like it's obviously lacking a lot today, more so today than recently, but. And so preserving that, protecting that, I think is always a good thing. And somewhere you can kind of almost. It felt like a space where it's like, the world is. This is what we want the world to be like when you're in a WNBA game. This is that we want people to treat each other. And so when I could be there and support that and I can show my sons that and raise them in that environment and let them understand that, because, you know, there's so much of the, you know, sexism, everything out there, especially in this hobby, unfortunately. You know, and my kids sometimes will watch breaks on YouTube and they'll hear these guys say these things, and I want them to know, like, that's not who that is. Why is that guy saying that? You know, that comes not from a place of basketball. You know, it comes from a more sinister place. And. And so, yeah, those are the things I think about specifically, you know, women's sports in general that make it so Important and of course, just, you know, giving these women the opportunity to show who they are, be who they are. For sure. I. I love that I. I have a hard time, I feel like on the podcast expressing those thoughts in terms of just making them so coherent because it's such a big topic. And I think you did a great job kind of like boiling it down into to what matters. So. Thanks for sharing that, Gavin. Of course, of course. Try not to get too off topic about cards, but. No, but it's true. It feels good to put your. Put your money into cards of people that you respect and you look up to and that you think are like embodied, embodying the values, values that you share. I think it's something that's underrated. Okay, let's move into your collection philosophy and strategy, I guess. How would you describe your. Your collection and the way that you go about it Of Phoenix Mercury cards, That's easiest like way to describe. I say maybe inconsistent, maybe a little, you know, it's broad at times, unfocused. It can be. It's gotten more so, like I said, more recently, started focusing more on a few different rainbows, more on sets. I've got like a finally put together a DT binder and so I have her entire career, all of her base cards, all throughout her career, and a bunch of other ones along the way. I'm trying to put together all the championship teams. She was on a lot of the big patches. The case hits things like that. Of course, obviously, with Alyssa Thomas, I have some of the. Some of her stuff from before this season. But now that she's stuff of her in a Mercury uniform, of course I've dove it hard on that of four cards away from the Donruss rainbow. If anybody out there count me with a cubic the two retail one of ones which I believe are Black Shimmer and Black Hollow. And then the artist proof to 25 guys are out there and you find them, let me know. Yeah, absolutely. If you guys are listening, you see those, that they definitely belong in your collection, Gavin. And when you kind of talk about the fragmented aspect, you don't really have like one thing that you're not just collecting players, you're not just collecting patches, you're not just collecting one of ones. You're kind of spreading it out. Do you have a focus, a goal to focus on something in the future or do you kind of want to keep it wide? Wide breadth here? Yeah. You know, Kevin M. Chromia had a post one time that I thought really inspired that and me was just like almost having like many sets to collect along the way because sometimes if you're looking for one, you can get bogged down, you know. And so I do that a little bit as well. You know, I run into especially with Liz Thomas. It's nice where cards are typically pretty accessible, you know, they're not very expensive and so sometimes you run across one, you're like, oh, you know, like the five I found for cheap on ebay. So maybe now I can build that rainbow, you know, and, and things like that. Or you know, get all the Mercury. Purple velocities is what I'm looking for from PRISM this year because it's the color match and everything. So, so yeah, you know, stuff like that, I guess that kind of keeps me on track. And then between me and my kids, we love to rip packs and boxes and everything like that, you know. And so that keeps you busy enough just kind of selling the stuff we don't keep and everything like that, you know, just pumping out the page and Caitlin's as far as I can so I can buy more. Promise. I love that. I love the concept of selling Clark and Paige to acquire T. It just feels right from for a Phoenix Mercury collector, you hold a few, of course, just to, you know, to have, you know, along with your LeBron's and your Michael Jordans and whatnot. But you know, that's funny. I, I, I am curious. So something that we've all kind of felt and seen is like the rise of the costs associated with women's basketball cards, particularly WNBA cards over the past couple of years. So I'm wondering, do you have any like quote unquote guardrails or rules to kind of keep things out to shut off that noise you mentioned kind of Kevin's little post about, you know, think of it as small sets and trying, you know, to break it down instead of biting off more than you can chew. Are there any like things that you completely exclude that you say these will not come in not because I don't like them, but because it goes against the rules of, of my collection. I wouldn't say there's anything I'm going to always say no to. You know, find something and it's like that cool. You know, I can have plenty of cards that are just really, really cool that aren't of D tier list of Thomas or Mercury players or whatever. So you know, another but, but they're certainly like I try not to get spend very much time in breaks. You know, I certainly have been guilty of it at times. But I know that's a lot of opinions about how that's bad for the market and everything as well. And then, you know, don't worry about hobby boxes. So I guess that's. Those are kind of my guardrails. You know, it's just. Honestly, just the. Just the financial constraints around it now. You know, it kind of keeps you. Keeps you in check, naturally, because, you know, you're, like, hardly, like, you know, put down that much cash and then, you know, rip through it in 30 seconds and, you know, be left wishing you had just gone on ebay and bought a few cards. You know, I hear that 100. I think that's a good tip for, like, people that are new to collecting. I think breaking can be really fun in terms of, like, you know, meeting a community, talking to folks that share that same thing. It can be fun, especially if you're a team collector. Right. Because then you can just pick your team. But I guess, you know, it can kind of spiral from there. So that's something to be a. But that. That leads me into random. Start chasing stuff. Yeah. One thing's nice about it, though, is typically, like, the Mercury always pretty cheap. You know, the one thing some of the select I've been seeing, I saw, like, Diana Taurasi. When the player breaks down, Torosi prices be, like, strangely high. And then he realized she has a dual auto with Paige Beckers, so. Oh, that spot goes for more now than it might have used to. Yeah, that's. I completely forget about those duels. And it always stresses me out when they run them, and it's like a coin toss. I'm like, oh, I so bad. Like, I know, right? My face. Beckers. Meyer doesn't get that. That's tough. Okay. But that kind of leads me into my. My advice for a team collector that's new to team collecting would be, you know, to explore breaks as one avenue. But I'm not. I've never really. I think I've entered maybe two breaks in my entire life, and both of them were, like, run by friends, so I was, like, supporting them. But do you have any advice for new team collectors for people that are looking to collect the WNBA team outside of maybe just the financial aspect of it? I mean, I'd say just, you know, education is a big thing. Debian Baycards.com is a great place to start. It's where I started, where a lot of people started. Watching breaks and just not participating is always fun. You can, like you said, you can meet other people Especially in the WNBA space. And you get to know people, Facebook groups, things like that. In terms of, like, direct collecting advice, you know, I mean, it sounds cheesy. Everybody says it on here, but, you know, collect what you like. It's true. Don't let anybody else tell you what it's worth or what. What you should and shouldn't buy. You know, if you're. You're buying it for investment, that's one thing. But if you're buying it because of the players you like, then dive in, you know, learn about them, learn about their history, what big cards they have. And it can be fun because same things happen with me. As I started learning more about Mercury cards, I started learning things about the Mercury I didn't know before. Just little details here and there and. And everything, you know. So, yeah, that's my biggest advice again, is, you know, invite. Buy what you like, you know, black what you like. That's one great advice. I think it's funny that everybody says it, and I think it's true. I don't think it diminishes. The fact is not diminished. No matter how many times it gets said on this podcast, it still holds true. Secondly, you've provided the perfect segue to our next segment, which is a new segment that we're introducing for season five called the Personal Grail. And so I'm asking each collector that comes on here to kind of share a card that represents that fandom, that represents collecting what you love and not necessarily just what's worth the most money or what's making the headlines this week. So, Gavin, I'm going to share my screen with the card that you submitted as your Personal Grail. And then maybe you could, as I'm pulling it up, kind of explain what it is and why you picked this one. Well, this is the Lissa Thomas Blue Platinum one of one from Impeccable. It's obviously the only year they made Impeccable for wnba. It's her in America uniform. And one of the cool things about it is it's not like historically a big Mercury card. Obviously, she doesn't have a ton of Mercury history here. But I really liked it because the story of how I got it I think does a great job of, like, highlighting how cool the community, especially the WNBA community is. Ben Rippen is a big influencer, big collector. He does a lot of different kinds of sports cars, but he's a big support of the wnba. Check out his podcast again. It's Ben Rippon. He was. I. I started collecting this this Set, same thing. I think I'd gotten the to 8 and so I decided I'm gonna try and get all of these. You know, there wasn't very many of them was a very big rainbow. And through a friend I'd heard that this one was going to be available on a whatnot stream. And so when it came up, there's a few people in the room, but a bunch of people knew I was collecting it. A bunch of people knew I was in there to get it. And I'm not great at whatnot. So as the auction's going on, instead of swiping like I'm supposed to, I'm trying to type in a max bid more like you do on ebay. And I missed it. Ben Rippen won it. But then several people, volcano cards and Abu Dhu cards. But they spoke up in the chat and they both said, you know, hey, this guy's looking to collect all of these and he's this, he just needs this one to complete the rainbow. And Ben just said, send it to him. And so I was like, what? You know, I was blown away of course. And I messaged him several times, tried to say, hey, you know, can I pay you for this? Happy to pay more than what you paid. And, and you know, anything. And just, you know, his, his. He says, no, it's just, no, it's about building the hobby. I think he even commented on the post and said, you know, it's not about the money. It's about building your collection, helping other people build their collection, you know, so that to me I thought was just a really, really cool story that he like saw that this car was important to someone and he's like, yeah, just let him have it, you know, and it was just really neat. I was floored. D have such a big guard for free, you know, Shoot. Yeah, absolutely. That's, that's really demonstrating the power of community here. I think this, this community in particular WNBA cards feels so tight knit. It's like I know that you were looking for this card. People know that you're looking for this card. And for some of you step up and, and be like, hey, I know it belongs with you. Is, is really powerful. If you could just take a step back. For me, we talked about the community aspect of this card. Maybe if you could share with the audience why you like the card so much itself. I know, I know you said you had the out of eight or out of five and so that kind of drove the idea of a rainbow completion, but this card is a Standalone card as well, being a one of one. It's beautiful. What do you like about it? I've always been a big Origins fan. Unfortunately, I didn't make them again this year, so that's always been my favorite set. We spent way too much time and money ripping 23 and 24 origins. And of course, when these came out, you know, the prices were just so high. It was really, really hard to justify getting into any of them. I never did. But of course, you know, you're able to find singles out there, which is great. And Alyssa Thomas, you know, is. Is, you know, now one of my favorite players and everything. And. And so her cards are always pretty affordable, like we talked about. So this kind of is taking a place of origins for me. And so this is almost like her first set with the Mercury in terms of those kind of cards. I like. You know, obviously there's Don Russ first, but so, I mean, just the run they went on last season, you know, it was unexpected. A lot of people writing us off to not make the playoffs. Beginning of the year, you got these Big three and who else? And we beat, you know, New York and one other team, I can't remember on the way to the. But of course then, you know, ended up, you know, not working out, everything like that. I just, you know, this. Thomas is one of those players, too, that I've always been such a big fan. And when she got traded to Mercury, it was huge, huge, huge for us. You know, she plays in a way that, you know, a lot of players don't. She's got that grit. She's got the fire. She can almost will her team, you know, to victory. And. And so, yeah, you know, to me, she's still last year's mvp. But, you know, I think there's an argument to be made. I completely. I wouldn't say that personally, but I am. I think it's a bit. Both agree it was in Asia. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Hard to argue with that one too, though, honestly. She is amazing. So literally. Literally. No, this is an amazing card. I think it's beautiful. I also think there's something to be said. This might be reading too far into it. I don't know how nerdy we want to get with it, but the Mercury being a planet, right? Like, that's like the concept here and then the background kind of looking like rock or like, you know, similar to that Origins art feel, kind of explosion. It's almost giving space. It looks like space or like, I was going to say something like a galaxy or Something kind of. That turning off kind of like you would see in the Origins cards. Yeah, something about that. It just works. The color works, like platinum etching of the Impeccable. It's just. It's a really clean card. And. And is this card regular thickness? Can you remind me? Or is this a thicker. No, no, they're thicker. They're thicker like the Origins cards. Yeah, I. I like the premium. Yeah, that's good. Yeah, it's. It's beautiful. Yeah. And then I've got it here, but. Yeah, but, yeah, it's just. I mean, all these are so great, but the particular. This one, then it's like, you know, the. The platinum blue being the, you know, specific parallel. It's neat because it. It's just in the etching there, so it just kind of pops, whereas the background's still the purple, so it still matches uniform and the mercury colors and everything. So, yeah, it's just. I mean, love it. I love it. Thanks so much for submitting that. That card. I think it's a beautiful one. I. I would love to have that card of my favorite players. So to see it in your collection, just. It feels right. Well, keep an eye out. All right. It's Courtney Williams, right? Courtney Williams. Oh, my God. Somebody get this guy off my podcast for McDowell. Spreading that rumor. No, I'm just kidding. No. Okay, so I want to transition. We've talked about your personal fandom. We've talked about Mercury and how you kind of structure your collection. We talk about one of your favorite cards. Now I want to move into community, culture, and environment. So we touched on, you know, the importance of community and that story with your card. But I want to dig a little bit deeper because, you know, we started this season with talking about the, I don't know, importance and, I don't know, legitimacy that comes with community. It is important to build a community around card communities, around card segments, even if they're more niche. You know, we. We're undoubtedly a smaller community than, say, the NFL or the MLB or the NBA. That's without a doubt. But we are strong and mighty, and I think we all love being a part of this community, and part of this podcast is to drive kind of community building. So I want to hear kind of about your experience in card collecting in the community. So why don't we start with this question? How would you describe kind of the Mercury collector community? Do you know other mercury collectors? Are you guys. You guys coordinating? Are you guys, like, talking, or do you feel kind of like in a silo as a mercury collector right now, definitely not in a silo. There's a few I talk to who aren't local on Instagram who collect like, you know, some other Dino Trust collectors and things like that. There's a few Alyssa Thomas collectors. Luckily most of them are collecting older stuff so we don't bump heads too much. But then here locally I just going to the games. I know two others, two of our best friends actually as this couple. We met them because by chance I had bought some cards from her on ebay early on, a box of cards. And she had some trouble with stuff getting delivered and stuff getting stolen or going missing or whatever. So she's like, why? Turns out I live in, you know, I live in Phoenix. Can I just come deliver it? And we started talking. She's like, oh, I'm a Phoenix Mercury sticking holder too, blah blah, blah. So she came over and now like we're best friends. Her and her wife are like best friends with me and my wife. And so it's. She's bomb. Sports cards, B O M sports cards. Everybody check her out. But so yeah, so yeah, there's good friends there. We collect a lot. We're always, you know, going back and forth about where we find stuff. You know, if you can find things in the stores, you know, you want me to pick some up for you, you know, and things like that. And then we send each other cards on ebay and things like that. And then there's also another woman, Volcano Cards, who I know from going to the games as well. And she does some collecting everything. And actually last year she was collecting unfortunately a lot of Satu Sabali. So that worked out, you know, because I was a Listoma, she was more sadly now, of course, you know, poor Val Satya went to New York. But so yeah, you know, it's not, it's not a huge community. Again, we're not the fever. You know, we don't have. We're not, we're not the A's. We don't have the superstars and everything like that. We're not the. Has talked about a lot. Our, our players aren't the ones that are super collected either. Just across the board. We don't have any of the big name rookies of the last few years. So yeah, you know, it makes it feel a little more like boutique, I guess. Yeah. And. And then it does feel a little bit closer because when you meet somebody it's kind of like, oh yeah, you know, and like again, it's like for instance If I see a cool card of, you know, a bigger name player, I instantly think, like, three or four or five people. I'm like, who should I send this to? And try and send it to all of them, remember them. But you feel like with the Mercury cards, you took one or two people, you know, so. So, yeah, that's. That's been. You know, that's probably the biggest thing I'd say about that compared to, like, what I've seen from other fan base. Yeah. Collectors. That makes. That makes a lot of sense. It sounds like the tent has some more room in it then, is what I'm hearing from Mercury. Yeah, absolutely. Especially in the modern. Of course, there's a lot of people out there love Daniel Terrasi. You know, she was one of the first collectible. Her and sue were probably the first two collectible players, you know, and so, yeah, there's that. And everybody knows that history and everything like that. But more modern, you know, certainly smaller. Yeah, smaller group I kind of want to dive into. You mentioned at the top of the episode about how Cheryl Miller was the person who kind of coined the X Factor idea. This idea of Phoenix being almost embedded into the fandom, into the stands of the arena. And I want to hear from you, because you live in Phoenix, you go to the games. What do you think the role of the city of Phoenix plays in Mercury fandom? I know some teams feel this really strong connection with their city or state or, you know, area that they're repping. What is. What is that like for the Mercury? Well, it's an interesting thing here in Phoenix because there's so many people that have moved here from other places, and they bring their fandom with them. You know, I swear, we've got to lead the country in just, like, sports bars that are dedicated to different teams across the country, you know. Yeah, I met my wife. I was managing a Pittsburgh Steelers sports bar, you know, in Phoenix, Arizona. So. And. And so, but when you go to the games and you start meeting fans of these teams and the really hardcore fans, you know, there is something special to them about being from here, you know. And so when you meet people like that, it does definitely, like, you know, it feels more ingrained in those fans, you know, and then with. With the W in particular, because it is such a smaller fan base, typically it was, you know, it's growing so much now, but there was a special sense of like, you know, this is something that's a special place, you know, and they do a lot in terms of like, you know, Integrating some of the Latin culture and things like that into, like, some of the uniforms and stuff they've done. Damn, man. The Suns do a pretty good job of that. So. Yeah, you know, those are. Those are a lot of things, I think, really kind of, you know, make the Mercury feel more like a Phoenix only sort of event, you know, that makes sense. This is not on the question sheet, but I love talking about jerseys in uniforms. And the Mercury switched up their jersey. Right. Their kits this year. Do you have a. Only branding? Yeah. Do you like it? Do you. Do you not like it's growing on me. I'll admit, when it first, like, they announced it, I was really excited and I was kind of underwhelmed when I saw, like, just the new M logo and everything like that. I do like the new Rebel jerseys, the black ones. I like those a lot. And then I do like that everything's sort of a nod to the previous years. About, like, the new purple jerseys are. And the white jerseys look like the ones from, like, you know, 2010-15 era, I believe. And then, of course, they brought these back. This is actually not one of the new throwbacks. This is an older, original one that I've had. But I do have several of the new throwbacks as well. The new watermelon colorway. So when they brought those out, that was really cool and all the fans were excited. There's a lot of mixed emotions about that rebranding. At first, I know a lot of people hated it. I was not in the hate camp, but I was. I was underwhelmed. I guess I was hoping it'd be bigger and more exciting than it was. Yeah, I thought the Mercury. I'm going off tangent here, but, like, I thought the Mercury had a really good style going on. Like, especially those black jerseys that said PHX on the front and they kind of had the, like, gradients on the sides. For some reason, those ones always hit for me. So then when I saw the announcement of the new logo, I was definitely in the underwhelmed camp. But when I'm watching them on the court, one, I think AT can make any jersey look good. Like, personally, like, just like, her build makes it look good, but, like, I. I definitely feel like they've grown on me. I. I like them and I'm not, like, I'm not like, oh, go back. Like, bring me back. Like, I think they look pretty good. Yeah. And then they did bring back the new one with the gradient, of course, the sunset gradient's always huge. The Suns did It a few years ago with the Valley jerseys for the first time and it was just like such a hit. That was the year they made their championship run last championship run. But anyway, so yeah, that, that, that sunset speaking backs like you know, uniquely Phoenix things including that, you know, it's Arizona sunsets are the best and then we all love them and over the desert, everything like that, you know, it does some crazy things up there. So yeah, that's, that's another thing, you know, definitely factors in there. I like that. All right, let's kind of pivot, switch gears here. I have a question here about rivalries which is something I'm very curious about because I feel like in WNBA there's some very clear rivalries but also there's not, it's not like Bears versus Packers in the NFL which like everybody knows are like these kind of like distinct. And I think it's because you know the WNBA has only been around for 30 years so you don't have that like really long hatred and a lot of teams have come and gone or switched or relocated so you don't have that super long legacy. But could you speak on what the Mercury's feelings are in terms of rivalries? Do you have a clear number one? Well, I mean clear number one. Most one comes to mind is we're kind of rival sports wise la beat la. Everything's beat la. Back when we had a hockey team it was beat the Kings and you know, so on and so forth. The Rams now and, and so, so yeah, that's always a big, big part of it. There's not as much of a history there between these two teams. So you know, more recently anyway. So that's. Personally I can tell you there's a few I have but you know, please, like obviously the Aces, you know, is a big one. Everybody to everybody. I love the team and love so many of those players and love their coach and, and everything like that. Yeah, you know, that was tough to get swept and I won't lie Minnesota a little bit. You know, that was a hard fought series. You felt like there was a lot of bad blood after it. You know, even though we won, you still felt like, you know, and Cheryl obviously, you know how to famous crash, everything like that. You know, it was just like you almost feel like there's a little like they've got a chip on their shoulder when they come here too, you know. And so it kind of makes you feel like you got the same sort of chip, you know. Yeah, I, I, for some reason I don't know if this is just me. I guess people can tell me if I'm going crazy or not. But I put like the links and the Mercury fans, like, we have a great respect for each other. Like, I respect the hell out of Mercury fans because you've got a lot of history. You got a lot of good things going. You've had some tough times. You've got some of the goats that are undisputed, like BGDT, like undisputed. And then you have somebody like 80 who's constantly disrespected, like constantly, both on the court and off. Just like constantly underrated. And when we play each other, I feel like that same kind of, I don't know, feeling those themes also applied to the links. Like we also have those goats, like Maya. Right. Or like Simone, like these all time goats. We have really good times and then we have some times that aren't so good. And now we have a player like Fee who's constantly underrated. Right. Like, it feels like we kind of have a similar base, but one of us is stuck in the cold up north and the other one is in the southwest enjoying the desert. So I just want to make a comment on that. Well, at least in the summertime when the league is that you guys have the much more preferable weather. So. Yeah. While the, While the games are being played. Yeah. All right, let's move to this next segment. The next segment is focused all about players, eras in the team history of the Mercury. So the first question that I want to ask you is which Mercury players do you feel the most connected to and strongest towards? I know you've talked about DT and at, so I won't make you repeat yourself over and over about why you like them, but is there any other names that kind of, I don't know, stick out that you're like, damn, I feel like, like I'm a fan, like a true fan of these players. Beyond those two, Brittany Griner is a huge one. When she was here, she was always so, so nice to my kids and everyone. And my youngest son, still her favorite player every T wore every time they came to town. This year he was Atlanta. Brittany Griner jersey. This year he's got a Connecticut one. Next year I'll get him a Houston one, I'm sure. So Shandon, you know, obviously everything she went through, you know, we read book and stuff like that. That was really inspiring story. And just her as a person, you know, I mean, just. Just her story in general, outside of her detainment in Russia and everything like that. It's like she's just such an inspiration and such an amazing player. Overcomes so much and so, yeah, I'd say she's the next one outside of those three. You know, I'd say I'm a huge, huge fan of. I feel like connection to Dewana Bonner. Obviously, Daisy connection helps. But of course, she played here originally, you know, and so it's so cool seeing her come home and know she was only here a brief time. But, man, Tasha Cloud, she can grab a fan base. She still gets a standing ovation. She came to zero Chicago. You know, the place went nuts for her. So. So, yeah, those are the ones. Some earlier ones, I guess. Michelle Timms is always cool. She's kind of seems like Marcy, right? That's. That's like first. One of the first global players, right, was Michelle Tims. Just like when I look back at Cards from her era, she like, fits the esthetic the most. I feel like out of Everybody, it's so like 90s heartthrob to me. Like, when I see the room, like, it. She should be in like a boy band or something. Like. Yeah, right. Look like one of those, like, videos where she's got, like her suit jacket and the sleeves are all that me. We're clipping that. Do it. Yeah, she's. Yeah, she's fantastic and similar. Like Cheryl Miller, she was one of those ones that, like, had. She set that tone for us early on. That swagger, you know, her and obviously Rachel. Excuse me. Jennifer Gillen being two of our first. Two of our first players. First two players that were allocated to Mercury and then Bridget Pettis, of course, is cool. The work she's done and everything. Especially outside of that, she's amazing. So, yeah, that's a good list. That's a good list. Okay, now I'm going to ask you to do something really hard, which is to pick who you think deserves to be on the Phoenix, Mercury, Mount Rushmore, the top four players of all time. All right, well, this one was hard and I know there's going to be a lot of people left off this list, so I am going to squeeze in some honorable mentions. Setting the stage. You're setting the precedent for everyone else going forward this season. You can bring in honorable mentions. Dana Taurasi, Brittany Griner, Michelle Timms, like I said, first player ever. And then Cheryl Miller and I think built that swagger, that dice to especially built that identity. Like I said, Jennifer Gillum, Bridget Pettis, Paul Westhead, you mentioned earlier the coach to kind of really chill started the fast pace offense. But Paul really perfected with the seven seconds or less thing. Of course. Penny Taylor, Cab Pondexter, huge one. Cappy Dever does not get enough credit for how good she was and is not going to respect, you know, like so many players we've talked about and you've talked about. So, so yeah, those would be my 4 though. DT BG Michelle Timms and Cheryl Miller. Oh yeah, we can get that, that Mount Rushmore block started. That's a good looking four. That's a good four. I, I think I agree. Usually I like try to like rebuttal by saying what about this person? I think you got it right. The honorable mentions are really good and if AT brings home a championship, I think she could sneak in there. I think she could. Yeah. But yeah, you know, that's got a long way to go. She's only been with the team a year so I kind of really didn't consider her at this point. But you know, hopefully. Yeah, yeah. You're like, please, please. Yeah, yeah. Here's the reason. So one of the things that you talked about in that this kind of line of questioning that I'm doing through you is about this kind of like not getting enough credit, kind of being disrespected or being underappreciated. And one of the terms that we talk about on the WNBA card podcast, something that Brett and I, I think it just came up one episode was something called the Disrespect Index, which is our attempt to not mathematically calculate, but maybe at some point we could create some sort of actual index but to kind of like understand these players that are really talented and perform quite impressively on the court but don't have that translate to their card market financially. Obviously some people, you know, you know, I'm talking just pure numbers here of just like dollar amounts on cards. I want you to pick if you can, one player on the Mercury who it can be from any era that you would rank as kind of like the number one player in the Disrespect index, meaning their cards should be worth million times more than what they are. I can go back through that exact same list I just gave you and basically replay those names in the same way. Honestly, even Diana Taurosi, I mean you do see she's obviously the player man's highest prices. But I mean considering who she is, you know, pair of prizes to A Michael Jordan, LeBron James, you know, you can definitely make an argument there that you know she's not getting the hobby love she deserves. But, you know, one, I would say right now and going back to what we talked about, the fandom is Alyssa Thomas. I agree. I think what she's already achieved in this league, she's, you know, every year she's top two or three for mvp, just can't quite make it because she can't shoot threes. So, you know, it's like, always gonna. Always gonna hurt her. You know, one of the best defensive players you've ever seen, leads the league, hit in triple doubles and everything like that. So, yeah, you know, she's. She's the one. I would say that if you look at the prices of her cards these days, and it's a benefit to me, so maybe I shouldn't be saying this, but, you know, it's. It's currently low, I think, compared to some of her peers, you know, even. But, you know, we talk about yum fee in Asia, where both of their cards are still low comparatively. But, you know, I think some of that, of course, is, you know, you would call marketability. You know, she's a masculine presenting, gay black woman, so we're always gonna take a hit, you know, and. And so that has a lot to do with it. But, yeah, I would say, I think first one that jumps to mind definitely is Alyssa Thomas. Yeah, I agree completely. I think at was the player that Brett and I used as like, the biggest example when we first came up with this. This kind of, like, term. And I remember that. Yeah. Yeah. I just think, like, it doesn't make sense. Like you were saying, her ability to constantly be in top. Top three, if not, I mean, top five, if not top three every year. Like, we're not just saying, like, the past couple of years, like, she is constantly performing at the highest level across the league, no matter what team she's on, no matter who's on the team, who's coaching the team, she is so good, and she just doesn't get the hobby love. And I don't know, like you said, I. There's obviously, like, socioeconomic factors here of just like, identity politics and those things which, you know, we could have an entire episode about that. Agree with you, but also you're in for that one. Yeah. I think there's also a component, like you said, about style of play, which goes into MVP talks and also goes into card prices where at is not. She's not. She's not shooting a three. Like, if you look at, I think, not dropping 50 on you ever, you know, no, but she's dropping. Like she. When I think about at. There is no player that I get more frustrated watching my team go up against. She. She pesters the hell out of everybody. It doesn't matter if you're a guard, a big. She will face up to you and it's not going to be fun. It's not going to be fun. She's. She's. Yeah. She just doesn't get the respect she deserves. And I, I would expect like, especially if she elevates the Mercury again. Like we see two years in a row of like a deep, deep playoff bush. Like at some point, I, I just don't think it makes sense for her prices to sustain this low. That at some point I think, like we have to show some respect to. I mean, I would, I would love to agree with you, but I, you know, we've seen historically, when she was in Connecticut, she was doing this, you know, and it hasn't moved the needle and we're a bigger market, of course, so maybe it'll help. And obviously there's much more eyeballs on that sport now and more people in mark are in the, in the hobby. But, you know, it's one of those things, unfortunately. I mean there's, like we said, there's. Everybody can have a list of players from every team that is this way, unfortunately. So. Yeah, yeah, well, I agree with you. I think that's a good pick for the disrespect index. Okay, I want to ask you about a couple more questions on players era, team history and then we can go into our last segment. But this one is what championship run or defining moment kind of sticks out to you the most? Is it last year or did like the, I don't know, flagship kind of moment happen for you earlier than that? Well, last year was really, really special, will admit, especially being with my kids. We watched this whole team. We were there for every game. We went to all the finals games. Luckily there weren't that many of them to go to, but yeah, so, you know, that was, that was really special and obviously that one's always going to stick out to us. And then again where we came from to start that season where even Mercury fans didn't have super high helps and everything like that. So for them to turn around like that and do what they did was, you know, awesome. Yeah. Another one before that was another year's unlikely. Was it, I believe 2021 when they played Chicago and lost and. Yeah, yeah. Right after the bubble season. The bubble season. But. But yeah, that was Another kind of unlikely run we didn't expect to go on. It was kind of, you know, close to the twilight of DT's career, everything like that. And then we were at one of the finals games here and got to see Brittany Griner's dunk. So that one always sticks out as well. Me and my wife were there for Brittany Griner's finals dunk, so that was pretty cool. That is epic. Like, actually epic. Like, I'm. Yeah. Fortunately, Kia Nurse got hurt in that series and was not able to guard. And Clea Copper just carved up Sophie Cunningham. And there's the famous standing over staring down photo, you know, and then. So. Yeah, you know, that was before she was here, obviously, and she was Finals MVP then. So. Yeah, with Chicago. But. Yeah, so that was. That was a. That was. That was a cool moment and a cool series to see, even though it didn't turn out the way we wanted. Yeah, I think, like, that'll be interesting when I ask this question to other teams. The, like, dunking aspect, I think that is a real thing, you know, like, I had a collector, two collectors on last season from the rookies corner, Christian and Sam, who are collecting, like, dunking WNBA cards. And I had never heard about that before. And that kind of reminds me. I just. I just think when we think about moments and times outside of deep playoff pushes or championship runs, you know, dunks are a big deal still in the wba. They don't happen often. Especially a player who, like, kind of, you know, legitimized dunking in WNBA was bg. Like, she made it really, like, comparable, you know, to counterparts where people are like, that's a quote, unquote. I don't agree with this. Like, I think all dunks are real dunks, but, like, that's a real dunk coming in the WNBA to see that firsthand. I don't think I'd ever forget that if I saw that. So that's a cool moment. Yeah. That she did it in front of us in unrivaled, which was pretty exciting. But. Yeah, so. And I think especially kind of going that. I remember listening to that episode with Ruby's Corner, and that was a neat thing, too, because there's always, you know, the haters always one of the things they bring up about lowering the hoops and they can't dunk all this thing. So then when you see them do it, you know, it kind of like, it's like the middle finger to the bad guys. You know, basically, it's kind of like, cool, you Know, like here we are there, this is what you needed to see. Now you got nothing else to say, you know, so. Yeah, and of course, I mean dunks are cool. Like doesn't love a thing. Objectively cool. Yeah, yeah. Okay, before we pivot to our last segment which is going to be all about like the market perspective, I have one final hard hitting question for you on teen history. And if you don't mind, if you'll indulge us, this question is if you had to pick a few cards, one, you can pick one, two, three, like around that amount that define the Mercury history, like the franchise historically through cards, which cards would you pick and why? I went back and forth on this a lot, kind of just like picking moments because it's like the card from 2010 where DT is holding both the trophies and she's MVP and everything like that. And so that was one that came to mind a lot of stuff like that. But I ended up going basically with three rookie cards, you know, cheap way out, but just a combination of like how these players define their eras and how they defined I think the card market overall in a way and of course just how rookie cards are, you know, always sort of the most sought after grail. So start with Michelle Timms. That's that card I was talking about. Yeah, yep, exactly. Yep. From the 1997. It's the core collection. So it's the more like the gold foil on it, everything like that. There's also the executive collection as well, which is a little more shorter print. And then next one, no surprise anyone, is Dennis Ross, rookie. Nice copy. I do not have a medallion, maybe someday on gold or platinum, but that one's really cool. There's also another one with a, with a player worn patch in it. So. But this one of course is iconic. I've got a T shirt with that card on it and everything. And the last one of course is Brittney Griners. So yeah, that's again the next sort of superstar that came out of WNBA that was I think, you know, for the time known more outside the WNBA than most other players were. And same with Darasi and everything like that. So in that sense I think they obviously defined the Mercury's timelines and also the card timeline for the Mercury as well. Yeah, for sure. Do you remember what year is that BG rookie? Is it 11 or is it 2013? 13. Okay. Yeah, I remember that card. Like I remember seeing that as a kid because I was trying to time how old I was when that card came out. I was 12 when that card came out. And I think about that, and I think, like, you know, when we talk about. I'm going off topic again here, but, like, when we think about what this new generation of card collectors are going to see as being, like, iconic versus what people who grew up in the 90s, or even when I think about being 12 years old and seeing in particular the BG SI for Kids card, like that one in particular, like, opening it up at my house and like, being like, oh, she's. She's the real deal. Like, this is a super. She's in the news. She's on magazine covers. She's in Sports Illustrated for Kids. You know, that card, while it's not the Sports Illustrated one, but her. Her true Ricky, is what you just held up. That card, I think, deserves a spot on kind of this, like, permanent history of Mercury collecting. So great choice. I like the other two as well, and I think in card collecting in general, too, you know, she, again, like you said, she was one of those characters that was, like, sort of bigger than the sport. You know, you think she would grow the fandom a little bit? She'd grow a fan base or dominance in college and everything like that. You know, I think Kim Mulkey's still riding that train. You know, it's just, like. So, yeah, I feel like that's, you know. Yeah, she's. She's. She's bigger. A lot of people give her credit for. Of course, you know, she's. She's. She's a polarizing character. Unfortunately, not for her for anything she's done. But. But, yeah, I think that all those things definitely, you know, added to her importance to cards and to the Mercury. Of course. Absolutely. All right, let's move. She's pretty good. She's pretty good. She's pretty good. She's, like, kind of good. Yeah. I helped Win a championship 2014. So, yeah. Yeah. Okay, let's move to the final segment, which is all about hobby and market perspective. I'm excited about this question. I drafted this one. This question is all about kind of how you feel relative to other WNBA teams. And so how do you view the Mercury's place in the current WNBA hobby? Right. Does being a Mercury fan right now feel like you're at the top of the food chain? Everybody wants to be you. Everybody's competing in breaks. You know, this is, like, really high, highly set, upper, or at the bottom of the food chain. You feel like people are overlooking you. Nobody's really competing with you, that kind of thing. Or are you somewhere in the middle? Where would you rank the merger? I'd say overall, especially now, these later sets, you're not seeing as many. The DT cards coming out. Those are the ones I feel like are always the ones that are really chased by a lot of people, especially when they did the kaboom and the downtown and things like that. So overall, we're pretty low on the food chain. Our spot is never expensive, you know, and one of the frustrating things about is, again, I don't get in a lot of breaks. I bought a lot of singles and stuff when I am looking for them. You do feel like there's a lot of people out there who probably open a pack and see an Alyssa Thomas to 49, don't think it's worth any money because they've never really looked into. It's not worth a ton of money. And they might not take the time to list it. They might just donate it or, God forbid, throw it away. So sometimes their stuff can be trickier to track down. But yeah, I'd say, you know, again, they're. They're not one of the more collective teams like we just talked about. And, you know, in some ways it's good. But then also, like I said, you know, it's like every Caitlin Clark, whatever will be appear on ebay somewhere. And so if you're trying to collect her stuff, you're gonna see it, you're gonna find it, people are looking to move it. And these murky players, especially, you know, not just at, but even outside at and Clea Copper and then Dwana Bond or anybody like that, you know, it's like some people never heard of them, you know, and then of course, the rookies we have now, like try asking for people. Monica Ko Makani, you know who. So. But again, I mean, you can have. You can get the whole team in a player break for like $50 or something. Yeah, yeah. So that's not the worst. I think I'd say this to cling to my analogy I made about food chain. The bottom of the food chain needs to exist as well. Right. That's an important component to how that whole thing works. And I think that when we talk about the disrespect index for players, I think the Mercury are one of those teams right now that's under once again, just being, I don't know, underestimated both for playoff push and also in the card hobby. I just think it's one of those teams that flies under the radar and then you open it up and you're like, damn, this is a real. This is a squad. And this is like a fan base. Like a true fan base with dedicated collectors. So while you're at the bottom of the. Like, more towards the bottom half, I would say I wouldn't personally put the Mercury in the bottom three at all. Like, that's not where I would put them. I just put them at the middle to right. Right around the middle. Yeah. I mean, the DT collectibility to always play such a big factor, you know, and so that's. That always sort of, you know, like, amplifies our team a little more in terms of the, you know, collecting, no matter what era it is. You know, people always like, oh, you know, Mercury, old Dino Taurosi cards, you know. Yeah. It's like thinking about. Not to make the cheap comparison, but thinking about the Fever pre Caitlin Clark. It's like that food chain. They're very different in the food chain there compared to now. It's DT versus no dt. It does change it up your ranking. Okay. Gives them a little legitimacy that maybe you wouldn't sue Hurricanes. Yeah, exactly. Okay. The next question that I want to ask you about is kind of the growth. We just talked about this. You know, we have new players, new rookie classes, social media just kind of like also the card market in general exploding. We see that in card ladder data. How do you think the growth of modern WMBA card collecting has impacted, you know, mercury collecting? We talked about affordability being an aspect, but do you think anything else has. Has really impacted that at all? Well, there's obviously so much more now. There's so many more choices, you know, and so things like that, you know, and just. Just more to chase, more go after. More of the players are being included every year. You know, we're still in the teams. It's like there's a lot of, you know, players that we know that they didn't have cards of in Don Russ and things like that that played big parts on our team last season. And so that. That is definitely the thing I've seen, I guess the most change, you know, is just. Just. And I think everyone's seen that across the board. Just there's so much more. And it makes you sort of like, take a step back. You know, it was a while I was just like, buy it now. And every cool Lisa Thomas card you saw, and now all of a sudden, it's like, utility search just got dozens of hits. And you're like, well, do I need a, you know, pink camera 175 you know, it's only 99 cents, so maybe. But I don't know, you know, so. So yeah, that'd be the biggest thing for me, I'd say. Is it just that, you know, that volume has changed and for me personally, it's forced me to be a little more specific about what I'm looking for, what my tastes are. I think it's always interesting to ask team collectors about how the market affects their strategy, just because team collecting feels black and white. If you're not like completely in the card collecting game, it feels easy. It feels like collect every card of this team. Right. But like you said, with market factors, with changing teams, with all these different components that we talked about throughout today's episode, those things get a lot more complicated. So, Gavin, thank you for sharing kind of your collection, your history with the Mercury. I'm, like, hoping the Mercury do well for you. Your fandom makes me want the Mercury to do well, which pains me to say. Like I said, I'll take that back when we get to the playoffs. But for easy for you to say now, your superstar's still out and you guys look amazing and you have one of the big exciting rookies. Yeah, we'll see, we'll see. But no, I'm. We got a lot. We got a long way to go right now. We've had a. Certainly had a rocky start, but, you know, we'll see me. Listen, Thomas will trust. So it's. It's a long season and AT has been there, done that, so you're in safe hands. Gavin, before we kind of round the episode out, on today's episode, I just want to give you space to say anything if we didn't talk about anything. Any last words of wisdom for folks or if you want to plug your socials, how people can find you. Feel free to do that. Oh, I'm on Instagram at cardcollector. C O L E C D H E R. It's not the O R. So collect her. Um, and then, yeah, that's pretty much it. I'm not like, not doing the same sort of business or anything like that. I basically set it up so I could share cards and the other people in my life wouldn't know about my huge card nerdiness. So it's nice to have an algorithm that's basically just like women's sports and cards, you know, and get away from the other algorithms sometimes. Yeah. So, yeah, that's. That's that. And then. Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. This has been so Much fun. I really appreciate it. Yeah, for sure. And before I let you go, we're going to round out every episode with one final question, which is if someone is listening to the podcast and they haven't decided on a WNBA fandom for whatever reason that may be, maybe they're new. Maybe they're sick of their team. You know, if you're a Liberty fan listening out there right now, maybe this is for you. No, I'm just kidding. Liberty. But if somebody out there is looking for a reason to cheer for the Phoenix Mercury, could you kind of give us a short elevator pitch from your perspective? Well, you know, we're historically one of the winning franchises. We've been in the playoffs about 22 times out of 30 seasons now. I could be a little bit wrong on that, but. But yeah. So we're always a relevant franchise. Never. This one franchise is just historically bad. Every year I talked about, we have the best fan base. The X Factor is amazing. They're welcoming, they're excited, they're passionate, and the team has such a swagger. We've got such a long history of some of the greatest players, the greatest player in the WNBA and some of the other ones as well. And with connections to other people like Cheryl Miller and stuff like that, who obviously is a huge name in basketball. We never got to see play, unfortunately in the W. But yeah, so I'd say those are six finals appearances that go along with it. Three Finals wins. You become a Ricky Fan, you probably won't have to wait too many years to season the Finals. We'll leave it there. Gavin, thank you so much again for joining and for our listeners. I will see you next week. Hey, thank you. Take care, Galen. Love the direction that this season is going. This is going to be fun. Digging in, learning about, collecting from fans and collectors of all the teams in the wnba. Make sure you're following us at WNBA Card pod on Instagram. Shout out card ladder for supporting the pod. Shout out you for taking some time, sharing your passion and tuning in. Caitlyn will be back next week. Take care. Talk to you soon.