THWC 417: Restored Cards and Removed Seals- What a Week!

What is up, everybody? Habit cage episode 4 17. We're gonna call this one restored cards and removed seals. What a week. And you'll know exactly what we're talking about. We're gonna talk about a lot more than that. But episode 417 here brought to you guys by Arena Club by card ladder use code Cage. A couple more people use it this week. Save yourself a couple bucks. And, and by the Philly Show, I mean, we should just jump right into it, you know, What a fun couple of days of news. I mean, really, honestly, so many things to talk about. Record prices on cards, continued crazy auctions. You know, if I took today off from work here, July 9, Thursday, I could probably do an episode every hour and, and pump out 10 of them. We have the crazy historic auction from Golden. Last night we had, you know, for a Wednesday night, there were auctions at RR Hunt Golden, Sotheby. You know, the jerseys that auctioned off, they were just, you know, a. An amazing amount of auctions for a Wednesday night. We had recent auctions ending this past weekend where, where, I mean, just I could probably go through and we'll talk a little bit in this episode about, about new records being set almost across the board on cards. It's, it's pretty crazy to see kind of, you know, the, the pricing action on certain, in certain items. You know, we're leading into this, this sweet spot here of Fanatics Fest. A week away, one week from right now, as I record this, I will be on my way into Fanatics Fest, probably commuting there or maybe trying to get my, my credentials or, or, you know, making my way there. So, I mean, we are, we are right in the sweet spot. And then you got the national right after that. But a couple of fun ones to talk about because listen, I've seen people's opinion on this, but you and I both know you're listening to this, you're watching this. You understand that the only opinion that matters is, is mine. And that's why you come here. It doesn't matter what somebody else said about it. It doesn't matter what you read on hobby Twitter. It doesn't matter what the sports card nonsense Facebook group of 12 people and 3 million robots said. I'm just kidding. They actually have a pretty crazy size Facebook group. But what I say matters because I'm me. I joke, of course. But you guys, I mean, I'm sure you want to hear. I got a couple dozen DMS yesterday, people, about two items. Number one, the Honus Wagner. That's Been restored. That's coming up for sale. And number two is the removing of the seal for the Topps Chrome Basketball Update mega box release that comes out tomorrow. So couple things. Those items are very small, individual items and we could talk about them that way. We can talk about the TOPS Chrome update release and, and the taking off the plastic seal and what that means. We could talk about restoring this one card and what that means. But the reason why they've gotten so much traction, the reason why both of those, you know, topics are so big and why so many of you are asking about them is because they are, they're the gateway, the gateway drug. They are the door that opens to a much bigger conversation. Now, let's start with the Honus Wagner card. So for anybody who's hearing this for the first time, I can give a little background. Keith Olbermann, a, a former ESPN host, you know, a renowned sports collector. I know he has a lot of, a lot of cool memorabilia items. He owns three Honus Wagners, I think, oddball ones, a die cut one, one that has no border, one that's like trimmed. He doesn't have any, like the crazy high end ones. But to own three Wagners, this is insane in and of itself, no matter which ones they are. He is auctioning off a CGC slabbed Honus Wagner that's been restored and it was the die cut Wagner. And if you don't know what this is, look at behind me. If you're looking at YouTube, you see, you know, Mickey Mantle and Ken Griffey Junior. Imagine taking a scissor and just cutting out Mickey Mantle's head or Ken Griffey junior's head. And the rest of the card is gone. So it's sort of just a die cut of the player. Now think in your mind's eye about that Honus Wagner. The card that Keith Oman owns is exactly that. It is a die cut of just Wagner himself with no background, no border, no, you know, white border around the card. It is just a card that's been cut around the player's image. Now he has gone to a professional restorer, a restoration company and restored the card. So, so it now presents as a, let's call it a near mint looking card, you know, maybe a PSA 6, 7, 8. It's got the white border, it has a backdrop. It's now been repaired, restored and made into a really nice card. And it is slabbed that way. Authentic restored cgc. It has a yellow background, which an initial blush looks odd because we've Grown accustomed to seeing Honus Wagner cards with a more of a yellow, orange almost tint to it, you know, a different version, different color. But I will tell you, as someone who's been doing this for a long time, and I remember seeing price guys in the 80s where the Honus Wagner car was worth 7, $500. Seriously, that's what it was. It was 7, $500. I remember that. And it was, it was him and Eddie Plank and Napoleon lashway for the 1933 Gowdy car. Those were the big three pre war cards. Wish I would have bought them all, you know, but I was way too young and had no money. But I remember that card and, but I remember seeing many, many versions of this card. And the color backdrop, it runs the gamut. It really does that, you know, So I don't think there are any out there that are really like this yellow. There are some that are close to it. It's not the color I would have picked because the first thing you look at with it is it's a little, little different than what we're used to. And there's a funny back and forth between Darren Revelle and Keith Olbermann on Twitter about this because, you know, Darren Revelle put that it's, this is a, it's the wrong color. And then Keith Olman, you know, calls them some names and stuff. But then beyond that, puts a picture of a couple dozen Wagners all in various colors. You know what I mean? And that's a cool little history lesson too. You might want to go check that out, you know, on Twitter, just because, you know, it's, you don't, you don't often see a Wagner by itself, let alone, you know, a, A compilation of them together, showing off sort of like the color wheel of varied Wagners. So that was a cool little back and forth. Now, what do I think about that? And then the broader topic, what I think is, who cares? I'm just kidding. No, what I think is that card is one that's a little bit different. Right. You know, we've seen restored versions of that card. We've seen restored version of that card sell. There are just not enough of them out there for, you know, for people want. And it is a, it's a personal taste on that one. I, I go back and forth on this. I, I don't know that I would pay a ton. If I were someone who was of, of, of significant wealth, I don't know that I'd pay a ton for the Die Cut card or the One that there's like a half of the card and I definitely wouldn't pay a ton for one that has been restored because I'm more of a little hobby purist, I guess you want to call them. Call me that. Right. You know, I don't like the restoration of cards. You kind of like, I want to leave it where it is, but on a card like this, I, I could go either way. I really could. You know, I think if you put in front of me the die cut card or this card, I probably would still pick the die cut card. As a matter of fact, I know I would because one of the things that I thought to myself this morning, you know, while thinking about the topics for this episode, is if I had all the money in the world, I would think about buying this card in the hopes that someone, you know, bidders were turned off by the restoration, that they didn't like how it looked and that it's, you know, it's in a CGC authentic slab and that it's, you know, restored and it's yellow and the color is off and maybe be able to buy it for a price that, you know, scared people away because of the restoration and then have it unrestored and I don't know what's. What could happen there. And that's part of the fun little story, right? Like, like I would take the borders off and I try to have it put back to the condition it was in and. And then re slab it, hopefully PSA as authentic as the die cut version again and to get rid of it, you know, the backdrop, which is, it's funny because someone paid money to do this. Someone paid money to restore it and get it in this condition. And then there are other segments of the world like me, who would pay money to put it back because I'd rather have it, you know, in the condition that people knew it was before it got messed with. And there is the funny thing, right? I. The bigger conversation is restoration reparations, fixing cards, you know, you know, putting water on cards, distilled water on vintage cards and what does it do? And soaking cards and the, you know, the bigger conversation that, you know, that surrounds that. Forget about like Kurt's card care and all that stuff. It's just a. What can you and can you not do to these cards? It's an interesting thing. It really is, because it doesn't just stop there, right? We have a third party grading system and you see it with like, you know, someone puts water on a card, it gets graded, it's okay. It passes. It passes the rules, and everything's fine. You got to kind of almost trust that third party greater, right? What about the autographs? Oh, this autograph's no good. Yeah, but the company slabbed it. You know, I saw a, you know, a fun back and forth yesterday with. It's another topic for a whole nother episode with Boston Card Hunter about a. A Mickey Mantle autograph. I mean, maybe I will save that one for another episode. The point here is our hobby, our industry, our business has advanced in. In leaps and bounds from a value perspective. And with that, with the increase in money in the space, manipulating cards has become a very lucrative area. It always has been, but now it's to the nth degree because, you know, I mean, you see what cards are selling for. The sports card space has not really welcomed the restoration the way that the other places have. I told you, I was at a card show two weeks ago. It was all Pokemon with my son. And right in the middle of the room, you know, there's tables, five, six rows of tables. Right in the middle, like, the middle row, there's a guy set up with a big sign that says, show me your cards. I'll restore it right here. And he's got a whole setup, and he's, you know, fixing cards. And people have. There's a long line, and he, you know, people, this is mine. I've had it since I was a kid. Oh, some of that I can't really fix. But this one I can fix. This one I can get. I could do this by show. This one here, I might have to take home with me to my full setup. And I can fix this here. You know, if you graded this card now, it's probably a four. I could probably get it up to an eight. But a couple of things on here I can't do, you know. And then, you know, we watch them. Somebody comes over, he pays him 25, does a little, you know, he gives the car back, and, you know, I'm gonna grade it. Now. We've seen, you know, the. The people making videos more recently of dipping cards in water solution, rubbing st on it. You know, it's not just for vintage cards, you see, you know, the modern shiny stuff getting shined up with, you know, with creams and gels and all kinds of stuff. It opens the door for this conversation of what is and what isn't. Okay? And what's funny about it is we have no rules, right? I mean, I pretend to be a lawyer here, right? I slept at a Holiday Inn Express last night. But one of the things about, you know, about the law is, you know, if something is against the law or not. You got a speed limit, right? You're driving in the car, the speed limit is 55. You go 60, you know, you broke the speed limit, might not get a ticket. You might be able to get away with it. There's a little bit of, you know, a little bit of a play there, right? But if you get pulled over, you know, I was going over the speed limit. All right, easy this. There's no speed limit. You have kind of third party graders that all have their own rules. They all have their own, you know, attempts to catch things that are altered. But what's funny is what constitutes altering? And I don't have the answer for you. I don't. I really don't. It is, it is. It is one of those fun topics that, I mean, unless there is some sort of a rule put down, you know, PSA says, you know, if we find any evidence of dipping your cards in water or any kind even that, all right, some other grading company might have a different rule. It's a very interesting topic. It's an evolving topic. And I see with the Pokemon stuff, it becoming more and more acceptable. The younger kids do not care, right? They do not. They really, really don't. I mean, the, the line for the, the, the. The card prepper, the light for the card fixer at the Pokemon show was almost all kids. They just want the card in better shape probably so that they can sell it, so they can flip it, you know, because I did see kids at the table and binders. Oh, look at this one. It's got white on the back. Now they're taking raw cards out of the binders and bringing it to this guy to fix. Okay, fix the back of this one. I just bought this one over here. You know, can you make it look a little bit better? This has been going on for a long time in our space. It's just now, you know, more talk about it now to take it back to the, the, the. The Honus Wagner itself. That's an easy one. No one's trying to hide it. It's restored. You know what the card looked like before. You know what it looks like now. The person who buys that card is doing it with eyes wide open. They know what they're buying. They know what the card's been through. There's a detailed, you know, report of the restoration that happened to it. And, you know, what was done. You know, where the card was, you know, who the prior owner of the card was. So I mean, the big difference there is, you know, some of the restoration that gets done on, on cards is done sort of in the shadows. And it's why even the people who make videos about it and post their cards and do this stuff, why they don't show the certs on their cards. You know, they don't show the, they show it in a PSA slab what the grade they got, but they don't show the certification because, you know, that's basically letting everyone know that this is a card that's been kind of, you know, manipulated or soaked or whatever has been done to it. This is an evolving discussion. It truly is one that's going to be talked about for a long time. And it's funny, maybe somebody will come out with some definitive statement that wedding a card, putting the card in distilled water does nothing to actually alter the card. It just gets wet and then it dries and everything's great. You're taking dirt off of a card. You're taking, you know, some of the filth out of the card that wasn't there to begin with and has, you know, has, you know, gotten on the card and you're, you're taking the dirt off and you're, you know, I don't know, I mean, maybe there is some science to it that will be acceptable. I don't know whether or not you're ever going to be able to, to detect water in a card. You know, I would imagine there are probably situations where people own cards in the 30s and 40s and, you know, they got some moisture in them. Not on purpose. No one was trying to clean out the, you know, the cards. But I mean, you know, in the 30s, 40s, 50s, people weren't protecting these cards with, you know, with big plastic slabs, you know, maybe a raindrop gone on a card and then it dried out. And how would anyone ever know? It's, it really is a fun topic. We could probably spend three hours on it. It's just something that had me going down a rabbit hole again with this restored card and the fun back and forth between Overman and Revel. Now to the exact other side of the equation. If you haven't heard this yet, Tops. Chrome Update Basketball was released this week. Huge pre sales and tomorrow. So breaking news for you. Tomorrow, the 10th, get in on it. You can buy the mega boxes. But Tops fanatics is trying something different. This is something that's been talked about for a while. I know places do it. I've seen people do this where you want to prevent reselling. You want to make something available to the general public. You know, you'll sell something and take the tag off of it right as you sell it. You know, I've seen, you know, people do this at stadiums. You know, you sell somebody and you rip the tag off. I've seen stores do this. The thought being that if you really want this item, you're not trying to resell it. It doesn't need to be sealed for you. It doesn't need to have the tags on it, the stickers on it. We can slice it open, you know, we can put a mark across the, you know, the, the seal and making it harder for you to resell it. So TOPS is doing this for the release tomorrow for the mega boxes. You can go on the website and buy it, but know that when it ships, it will not have that factory seal, that plastic wrap around the cards. It will come to you, you know, untampered with, but with no seal on it. And the thought there being is we can get this in the hands of people who are the ultimate end user rather than people who are buying it just to sell it for a higher price. I don't hate this, right? I don't hate it. I'm sure that there was some analysis done within fanatics and TOPS to do this and try to, you know, continue to get these cards in the hands of people. I will tell you that I have missed out on the last dozen eqls. I've attempted to buy cards for box out of boxes that are thousands of dollars for a one card box dynasty and did not get it. Maybe what TOPS will be able to do here is let's say a box is $200 on their site and they sell it and they sell out in an hour, but then immediately the boxes are selling for $400 through, you know, the, the resellers on ebay, you name it. Topps has to have enough data on that and maybe they sell these things at the $200 without letting someone, you know, resell it. And you're able to get the cards into the hands of people who actually want them instead of reselling them. And maybe the interesting thing is they'll use this and continue the, you know, to build the data on it. And I think what likely happens because, you know, they want higher prices, higher prices, higher sale prices for a box justifies higher singles prices, justifies higher break prices. And Topps and fanatics have created an ecosystem here where you know, the more expensive a box sells for, the easier it is for their breakers to sell spots in it and you know, and, and justify the spot prices and, and allow the breakers to make money. But I think really what, what ends up happening here is if it's a $200 box straight here, but if you're allowed to flip it, it's 400, they're going to wind up moving that box price up a little bit. If they realize through market that if they sell it for 200 automatically becomes 400, they're going to move it to 250. It might take a little longer to sell out. They'll move it to 275, 285, 299. And they'll eventually find the sweet spot for these things where collectors are buying them. They're not being bought to re sell. They're not, you know, there's not this immediate flip and then fanatics is finding that right price for the collector to buy the cards at. And you don't have that automatic flip. Now if you're somebody out there who is, I mean, listen, I'm gonna try to buy a box. I always try to buy boxes. And when I buy boxes from Topps, you don't see me flipping them. I'm not. I want to open them, you know what I mean? I want to open them with my son. If, if I can get in some mega boxes tomorrow, I want to buy them and I want to open them myself. So I don't care that the seal is off. The cards are going to be the cards whether there's a sealant or not. And if taking that seal off allows me or some other dad or mom to buy a card box for their kid to open with their kid. One box, two boxes, whatever it is. How can anybody say anything negative about that? Seriously, what is the bad about that? That someone can't resell it for a higher price? So what? Why should there be a resell for a higher price? Now I understand there was an entire ecosystem set up here. There are breakers, there are, you know, resellers. There are people who make money buying and selling. And you know, I can understand the reseller, you know, take on it is, you know, top sets their price. That's what they're selling it for. What do they care what I do with it when I buy it from them? What do they care that I am reselling it for a higher price? I can understand that, but that's not where I'm coming from, where I'm coming from is I want a chance to open one of these products. I do. And this is not just any product. This is Chase product. You know what I mean? This is Topps Chrome update is the MLB debut patch. It's the NBA debut patch. It's your debut patch. You know, two Christmases ago my son had on his Christmas list buy me a box of Topps Chrome baseball update. Unless the Paul Skin's debut has been pulled by the time you read this. Because he wanted to chase that card. Those cards on the secondary market, those boxes, Santa Claus had to pay for that. So if there's a way for me to get some mega boxes and we can open them and and have the fun of trying to chase for Cooper flag debut patch, let's do it. And if I don't have to pay a markup to a reseller and the only negative for me, the only trade off for me is that my card doesn't have my box doesn't have plastic wrap around it. Sign me up because I'm opening the plastic wrap ends up on the floor anyway. You know, I'm perfectly okay with that. I'm sure a lot of people are going to disagree with that take but I mean you'd be wrong. This is one of those fun areas where it will be trial and error and I have to give fanatics a lot of credit for doing it. Right. It's something that's been talked about a bunch. I don't know the right way to do it. They didn't do it with the hobby boxes and they didn't do it with, you know, the cases, the big high end. I mean I think they were like 600 a box and maybe even more, I think jumbos over a thousand dollars. They're doing it with the mega boxes. So let's start there. You got to dip your toe in the water and kind of see what the temperature is before you go do cannibal, right? Let's see how it works. I got to give them credit. They are doing the ultimate tightrope, right? They got a balancing act going on here, right? They're trying to figure out a way to keep the hobby healthy, to keep it growing. I'm not going to say the word 10x because it's silly, but you understand the point there. They want to bring more people in. They want to create more collectors, more people spending money in the space. They also want to grow it to. They want people in the space to be successful. They want their stores, their breakers. They want everybody to be Able to make money. Right? Because this is all part of the same system. If their breakers are making money, their partners are making money. So are they. They want their product to sell through. But ultimately you also have to figure out a way. I mean, you don't 10x or 3x or 4x or 1x. You don't do. You don't grow the space unless you bring more people in. And I think a reasonable argument can be made that the best way to bring people in is to sell them product at a reasonable price, that they are going to actually open the barrier to entry. For opening this and trying to chase the dream of a Cooper Flag debut patch shouldn't be having to go out and buy it from a reseller at twice what the price was at tops. So this allows the product to get into more hands and open it and have fun. And then maybe that person becomes someone who goes to the Fanatics app and breaks with one of you breakers or buys cards on collect, you know, and now they're. They've been brought into the ecosystem. Great. Why wouldn't you do that? Look, they're not giving it away for free. Think about like, you know, I mean, if you're. If you're old enough to remember this when DraftKings came out and FanDuel came out, I mean, they still do it now. Listen to the commercials. Load up $10. We'll give you $150 in free bets. They need to add you to the system. This way you become a part of it and stay a part of it. How is this any different? You want to bring in a new collector, someone who might be willing to pay $200 for a box, but not 400. So are they willing to buy the box for 200 without plastic wrap on it? You betcha. I know I am. And that's kind of where we are. We'll see how this goes. Guys. It may sell out in two minutes. The bots may still attack it like crazy. And, you know, you and I might not be able to get it. I'll report back to you and let you know if I'm able to get it. And now I'm telling you about it. So there'll be more competition because you should go on and try to get it. Because whatever the price is, if you're able to get one even without plastic wrap, I'll buy it from you at that price. Don't try to mark it up too much because I want to open some. It's been very hard to get product. It's been very hard to get product at the price they release it at and just open it and have fun with it. I'm hoping this is a step in the right direction towards remedying that. How is that a bad thing? Well, guys, that's a long one. I had a lot to talk about today. You know, I wake up here in the morning early and I throw out a huge episode for you guys. You know, lucky you. Who's better than you? So guys, we're a week away from Fanatics Fest. If you're going to that, please let me know. I'd love to meet up with you. You know, I have some cards with me. Maybe I have some cigars with me. I know where to go to get a slice of pizza that's not that far away from Javits, you know, and, and you know, for a couple of days I'll have my son there and you know, you guys can say hi to him, tell him how you like his content better than mine. And then guys, we got the national also. So, I mean, I'm gonna be there. Send me a message what day you guys are gonna be there. I, you guys know the podcast is sponsored by Card Ladder. Card Ladder is going to be at booth 2326. They're all the way in the back before the emergency exits. So. And you guys know some of your hobby favorites also are Card Ladder sponsored. You know, you'll, you'll be able to see your, your, your, your favorite podcasters kind of hanging out of their booth. Why? Because they got candy, they got places to recharge your cell phone because you forgot to bring a portable charger and your cell phone is dying and they got free swag every day. You guys know they do that, right? I mean they always have sweatshirts. You know, they, they are giving away stuff all the time over there and you know, they have some, they have some fun stuff, you know, so a lot of content creators will be over there. I know I over there. And if you guys remember, they had a blind hat giveaway where you know, they everything's fun, right? Everything's kind of a chase. They short print hats. They even have like a one on one hats. They're all in bags, right? So you don't know what you're getting. And I'm pretty sure Friday at National is Card Ladder Hat day. So anyway, stop by the booth there Again, it's booth 2326 all the way in the back right before the emergency exits. I'll probably be hanging out over there, you know, until Josh kicks me out and tells me I'm annoying him, which does happen. And, you know, I mean, I'm excited for this month. If you listen to this content, you watch this content, I know you're excited, too. Hopefully you're able to get there to one of these things or both. If you're not. If you're not. Here's a little important ask for you guys. Let me know what it is you'd want to see from there. And I may go live or I'll try to, you know, film some stuff and then put it out for you guys. You know, afterwards, I'll post it on Instagram, I'll do a couple videos. But is there anything you see at Fanatics Fest that you'd want to see content of? You know, do you want to see sort of like, you know, the big cards at the national that are going to be there, you know, in their sort of museum area, you know? You know, do you want to see Fanatics Fest celebrities? You want me to, like, turn the. Turn the phone on every time Tom Brady walks by or, you know, I. I had some. Some fun with that. A lot of people sent me some fun requests last year, you know, and I went up going to, like, the Robert Edward auction house because there were some really cool cards there, Jackie Robinson stuff, and I filmed some cool content about that. So if there's anything, if you're not going that you want to see that, you know, you feel like you're missing out of, let me know and I'll try to be like a proxy for you. I'll try to, you know, I'll try to maybe go live and, you know, and film it for you guys or make some content about it so that you can see it. It's almost like you're there. It's the next best thing. Anyway, guys, that's a long one. 4:17. Brought to you by Arena Club, by card ladder, use code cage to save yourself a couple bucks. And by the Philly show. I'll see you guys tomorrow. Take care, everybody.