What's New, Cool, And Gimmicky For 2025 Topps Series 1 Baseball?; What Tom Brady Buying 50% Stake In CardVault Means For The Hobby; Answering Listener Questions!

You're listening to Cards to the Moon, a podcast about trading cards from both a collector and investor perspective. We hope you'll stick around for the ride as we take a deep dive into the state of the hobby, share some hot takes, hopefully some useful advice and fun stories along the way. Hey guys, welcome back to Cards to the Moon. This is episode 271 and my name is Clark from 5cardguys.com and 5cardguys on Instagram, Facebook and on YouTube. Co-hosting with me as usual is Hyung of Integrity Sports Cards. John won't be able to join today because he's got a pretty busy schedule this week, but he did share some of his thoughts in our chat group about the release of this year's Top Series 1, which features Aaron Judge on the cover. We'll get into that in our next segment, but first, off the top, Hyung, I want to get your thoughts on the very recent news that Tom Brady, yes, the 7-time Super Bowl champion, arguably the goat of football, he is acquiring a 50% stake in Card Vault, which is a sports card and memorabilia retailer. One of the owners and founders of Card Vault is Chris Costa, and if you're an OG listener of our podcast, back in Season 1 of Cards to the Moon, almost 5 years ago, Chris was our very first guest interview on the pod. Huge congrats to Chris and his team, it's certainly big news that Brady is now part of the Card Vault team and in fact, they are rebranding and are now called Card Vault by Tom Brady. And it looks like they have plans to scale its operations fairly quickly with perhaps more hobby shops across the country. We'll definitely have to try to get Chris back on the pod, but Hyung, your thoughts on this piece of news and what it could mean for the hobby at large. So there's a couple things to kind of unwrap this. One, like, congrats to Chris, like that's unreal news. It's kind of like if you were to start a company and you sold it to Tom Brady, and you're partners with Tom Brady, it's a dream come true probably, right? So it's pretty cool to see when Chris started the whole Card Vault initiative, and to see kind of where it's been built to as well, because even like when he had the Card Vault location in, was it Fenway? Or no, it was... Where the Patriots played, Foxborough. Yeah, the Patriots. Yeah, Foxborough Stadium, sorry, yeah. So it's like little steps like that that led to kind of like this massive, massive deal. And I could already envision it if it's like franchised with Tom Brady's name. From that perspective, it's a great business move, I think, from Chris's perspective. Now flipping in the macro lens where overall, what does that mean to the hobby? I mean, I think that is the most ideal case you can get. You get one of the biggest names in sports, probably the greatest of all time in football, to be heavily involved from a business standpoint, I think is a crazy, crazy sign of what we've been talking about this whole time, right? It's like, these are the bullish signs that kind of say, why would someone get involved with that big of a name? You know what I mean? Right. If it wasn't viable. Yes. Right? So I think it's great. Overall, it's like, when you sent me that link, I was shocked, but I wasn't shocked, if that makes sense. Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. Yeah, no, I mean, I was probably more shocked at the pace of how everything's developing. Yeah. And it's kind of crazy that as I was reflecting on our first interview on the pod with Chris almost five years ago, it's a relatively short time, just because of how fast everything's kind of come together, especially with what we've been able to do in the hobby within just using this podcast. And also, you know, five years is also a long time to develop things and, you know, it's awesome to see, like you were saying, where we've come from and just another really bullish sign for the hobby. And I was thinking about like a good analogy and, you know, some people might not like the whole franchising idea and like, is this going to be one of those things where, you know, Card Vault by Tom Brady becomes one of the only stores that people end up going to just because, you know, the operations are much better and maybe the, you know, it's kind of like Cards HQ in Atlanta with Jeff Wilson. Like there's people that would just want to go to a much brighter and cleaner store versus a mom and pop. But I think you just need, you need both, right? It's like you need both. Yeah, the analogy I was thinking is like theaters, you know, like you need your AMCs, you need your Cineplex, you know, but you also appreciate the rainbow and cinemas like the more boutique independent theaters, right? The way I see it is, the way I see it is like those independent small hobby shops. That's where you pull the smoke. I'm telling you. I don't know. Yeah. It's like random packs that you buy and then you hit big. But like those bigger franchises, I get both sides. But I think as long as they focus on always trying to improve, I guess, the hobby. So really listening because think the people with deeper pockets in this industry, they're going to hopefully invest that money to better it. Whereas if you're kind of like don't have the resources to necessarily focus your attention on fixing problems, then I think it's going to be a tough business because it's all focused on am I going to sell enough? Am I going to, you know what I mean? Instead of doing what will actually help and impact the hobby, which is, you know, investing in resources to make it better. Yep. Right. And, you know, to add to that point, just to have a wider appeal for, you know, for the hobby. Right. And to get more people into the hobby because it seems to be those places are more accessible in a lot of ways. Right. Instead of like going to a independent shop where you don't know the owner, you don't know what the vibe is. It might be intimidating for some people, you know, sometimes it's really quiet. Whereas if you go to a big store, you can peruse, you could just take your time and then, you know, maybe you do your own research back at home after going to those places. You know, I think that's kind of a cool benefit of seeing like Card Vault by Tom Brady kind of expand their operations and their business. So yeah. And, you know, just knowing even Chris on a, I don't know him that well, but just seeing what he's been able to do within the hobby, I don't think it could have happened to a better guy in terms of helping build out this hobby and this business. Yeah. And we need more guys like that. Like we said, we always said those are the guys that kind of like go all in on things where they see a vision and, you know, they're going to make it happen. And that was the crazy part because we were able to see it from this side of, and I'm sure it wasn't easy, like any task or any project is never easy. So it's easy to see that, wow, we've seen kind of like the crazy growth that, you know, Chris had. But yeah, like it was kind of an honor to kind of watch it from the sidelines because it was nothing at one point, right? We were talking about selling the Tati's orange, like a Sapphire auto for like three and a half K back at peak and we're like, sell it. And then now it's like, I sold my business to Tom Brady or I partnered up with him. I remember that conversation. I'll end off with this. You know, like just my last thought is if, if something like this didn't come along, if we kept the hobby as it is, which is just a bunch of independent shops, maybe even more independent shops, it's fine. But I feel like there's a ceiling, there's a ceiling to how much the hobby can grow. But if you have something like this where you have a major athlete, major investor, and you could really expand operations and scale quickly, that, that has a much higher ceiling in terms of how fast the hobby can grow. So that's my thought. You know, you don't have to like even a shop like Card Vault by HK. You might think it's too corporate, but I think overall it is a benefit for the hobby in general. All right, let's move on to hobby headlines. It's an exciting week for baseball card collectors because the launch of top series one of course coincides with the beginning of another new baseball season with spring training just around the corner. It's also a relatively affordable product to rip, and it's really fun to chase your favorite players that you'll be rooting for this season. Now in top series one 2025, there's also new insert cards and hits in the product this year and I want to go through some of them. And for each one, I want to see if we think it's cool or gimmicky or if you have any other thoughts about them. All right. Let's start off with a card that pays homage to the Frank Thomas no name on front card from the 1990 top set, which is 35 years ago. It was an error card if people aren't familiar with the no name on front card. And if you look on eBay, it's usually NNOF, you know, it's kind of shortened to that. But it is an error card, which as the name suggests, the card was missing the name Frank Thomas on the front, making it a pretty rare card. And according to card ladder, I just looked this up. There's only one PSA 10 of that card, so it's really hard to find in good condition. And it's just sold last November, most recently for almost $150,000. Now in top series one this year, they made a limited subset with active players like Mookie Betts and Andrew McCutcheon, and also legends like Ted Williams, Ricky Henderson, Larry Walker, and Frank Thomas, of course. And each of these no name hits are numbered to 35, right, denoting the 35 year anniversary of the 1990 set. On that point, John says he's a big fan of these cards and especially that it's also super rare, which he notes is a perfect homage to the OG error card. What do you think, Young? What do you think about these cards? I'm just looking at the Frank Thomas one. The original or the 2025? I know the original. The original is kind of like what got us so excited about the hobby in the 90s, right? That was the card that stood out. It's like, why is this card so much on Beckett, right? And then when we came back to the hobby, we were like, that's the first card, that and the 89 Upper Tech Griffey, it would be the no name, the 52 man, like all these cards were kind of like the classic OGs, right? So I like the idea because it gets kind of those people that are irrelevant, I guess I could, and by no means is Frank Thomas irrelevant, because I think he's one of the most underrated, one of the best right handed hitters of all time in baseball. But he gets no love as well, and as these superstars from the 90s and 80s kind of get overshadowed, I feel like I like the idea. But I'm not, I'm looking at the no name error card that they produced in series one 2025. And I don't know, it's just, to me, it's just like, will it be like, for instance, remember, there was a Louis Robert no name? Does anybody remember that? No. No. Exactly. That's the whole point. There was one. And that was kind of like bringing back to Frank Thomas, no name as well, right? So Louis Robert had one in series, I forgot what series was his top flags flagship rookie, which is SSSP. And it's one of those things where it's like, well, will people forget about it? Is it cool? Yes. But is it gonna be valuable or hold value? I don't know. I think it might hold like scarcity value and to the right collector. I think there might be opportunities, but like, yeah, I'm not, I wouldn't say I'm in love with it because I could see, I could see it not having that much value, if that makes sense. Fair point. Nope. It makes total sense. It's a fair point. I do like that it's numbered at 35. So definitely, you know, there's a scarcity level. Yep. And you know what? I think the only one I would really want is the Frank Thomas one. It would be kind of cool to have the original one. And then also this 2025 after 35 years and the other ones are, it's kind of cool. I'm seeing the prices kind of go from a hundred to three, 400 bucks. So you know, it's not that expensive. Pretty hefty price for Frank Thomas, huh? Yeah. Yeah. But I mean, to your point, I could see those values going down over time as well, especially for non Frank Thomas. I would be very interested in the original 1990 Noni, like that would be the card to kind of get. So it's like, would I rather spend the money on the 2025 one? Or would I put it towards like a NNO Frank Thomas, right? So that's why for me, it's like, and maybe it's a cool collection if you have both. Maybe that's your thing. But I don't think that's my thing is what I'm saying. All right. So you lean more on the gimmicky side. That's cool. I think you convinced me as well. John convinced me first. That was cool. And then you convinced me. It's a big gimmicky. So I'm very... Like I said, I wouldn't complain if I had the card. Really? It's at a 35. The Larry Walker one looks kind of cool. The Expos design. Let me see Larry Walker because he's fellow Canadian and I actually been on a yacht with Larry too. So... Right. And he's in an Expos uniform. So I think you might like it. Yeah. Here, let me see. Sorry. I should have done research before. Do you have a picture? Oh, okay. I see. I see. I see it. Terrible picture of him though. You don't like it? Yeah. Like I just... It's just not the stance or anything. It's just like I find like you could have found a better picture. But yeah. Like Larry Walker. Soccer Expos, Legend, I wouldn't mind having that card, but I'm not paying a premium for it at the same time. It's more of a collector's piece, I think. So I think a lot of collectors, this is what I'm concluding, just thinking out loud now. I think a lot of collectors would appreciate it just because that 1990 Topps design is so classic, at least for me, because it was when we started ripping like really, like I'm at the convenience store every day. It's either red 1990 Donruss or Topps, 1990 Topps, right? Yes, yeah. You know what, I think it's actually, I think it's a pretty cool card for nostalgic reasons. Yes, I agree. It's catering to that demographic. All right, let's go to the next one. I'm gonna admit, I'm totally into this for some reason. I feel like you might not be, but it's the player number variation card. So what it is, is for each player in the subset, their card is numbered up to their jersey number, okay? So for example, Vladdy and Mike Trout, their jersey numbers are 27. So this player number variation card is numbered to 27, and it's essentially the same design, but it does have their number tiled in the background. So you see 27 all over. Otani is in the subset, so his card is numbered to 17. I like it. Skeins, numbered to 30, and Gunnar Henderson, numbered to two, because of his jersey number. I like it. So you like it, okay. I like it, I like it. So what if, there's nobody that wears zero, right? Or would it be a frozen factor at that point? And there's Aaron Judge. Of course, he's numbered to 99. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And Ali's 44, so Ali's awesome. Okay, hear me out. My biggest thing with Top Series 1, Series 2, I personally always liked it, because it was affordable rip, and usually the flagship stuff is really sought after in terms of paper parallels, because you have the classic gold, which is numbered to your year, and then from there, it used to be just like your vintage stock at a 99, and then your Independence Day at 76, your black at 67, your Mother's and Father's Day, and then your camo, and then your clear, right? So that I used to love, but my only thing was, it was literally finding a needle in a haystack. The rips are tough, very, very tough. So my knock has always been, the rip is really boring, you get a lot of cards. So I was curious as to see what fanatics would do to make the experience better on flagship, because I feel like flagship in general is losing its luster, because Chrome is such a better rip, better experience, more value on the cards, and kind of like the paper, and I remember four years ago, I did a poll. Which do you like better? The paper parallels or Chrome parallels? And I kid you not, it was 50-50 at that time, four years ago. I guarantee you, it's like 80%, 20%, or somewhere way higher for Chrome over paper parallels. Yeah, yeah, for sure. So like tops in general, flagship has lost its luster, and kind of like tops Chrome update for the years before, right? So fanatics did the MLB debut patch in the tops Chrome update that totally revived that set. And then now it's like, what are we doing in the paper experience that I'm looking forward to? And these little things, like I'm not fully sold on, let's just say the Frank Thomas, the inserts, which is good though, I still want those, because if I pulled it, like I said, I'd be happy, right? But it's these things that I'm more excited about. Like number parallels, the variations, such a cool concept, 100%, like Bobby Wood Jr., seven cards, are you kidding me? Right. You know what I mean? With the parallel as the number. So from a collection and eye appeal standpoint, I think it's gonna be a great addition, right? And then this will also prove that maybe rookie card chasing is not necessarily a forefront anymore. Let me think about that, yeah. Because now you're seeing so many different hits, because before the hits were colored parallels and rookie autos. Anything else, it's like, do we want? Or any parallel, it's like, if it's not a rookie, it's worthless. Yeah. Yeah, that's an element for sure in terms of the chase. I agree. Yeah, no, I'm surprised. I mean, I don't know why, I just like the concept and it's unique in a way, right? I hope they continue it. They should make it, I don't know, who has a jersey number one? I guess that's essentially a one of one for that card. Will there be a one of one and then a super fractor, or is it a foil fractor? Foil fractor, yeah, yeah. Boring. It'll be a foil fractor. They need to get rid of all number one of ones and just keep everything a super fractor, and there's only one of them. That's what they need. Just simplify it that way? Yeah, get rid of the platinum, the platinum. Nobody likes the platinum. Put it into a super fractor and you're good. I'm with you. I'm with you on that for sure. Okay, let's talk autos now, all right? What do you think of non, this is not new, but what do you think of non-sports celebrities and even non-baseball athletes having autographs in this set? So if you remember last year, there was a Wemby first pitch auto card, and I think one of the quiz shows was, what was one of the highest graded cards, it was of Wemby, not even a baseball player, of him throwing at the first pitch, and then of course there was autographs as part of that. This year, you can find Jason Kelsey's first pitch autograph card. There's CJ Stroud. There's Jason Tatum. You like these as a chase or you're indifferent? I don't necessarily consider them as a chase, but I mean, let me ask you a question, Clark. Would you be upset if you pulled one of those? No, I'd be happy. I'd be happy. Yeah. I'd be way happier than pulling a no-name rookie. So at the end of the day, it's like, I'm not saying, whoa, this is the chase now. It's like, whoa, I want this. It's more like, I don't think it hurts the product. I'd be very happy with any of those autos because I know someone would want it at least, right? Or it's like a cool piece, right? Like even Jason Tatum, that's a cool Jason Tatum card, right? It's like, how would tops get around kind of like the whole Panini autos, the licensing? It's like, these are ways that it's like, hey, that's not a bad idea. It's not terrible. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, I think it's okay. I think it caters to a smaller demographic for sure. Like you would have to love baseball and also be a basketball fan to like want, really want a Jason Tatum autograph card from a top series one set. Wemby is probably an exception. Obviously Wemby is much bigger and the hype is- CJ Stroud too. CJ Stroud, yeah. I think there's hype around him. Kelsey, some guy would like that. Like, I mean, and that's what it looks like. It's like, they do a mix of like culture. Like what is popular in culture, right? And that makes sense to me. Maybe, yeah. Maybe that's a good way to draw people in to the hobby in general and just into baseball cards. So yeah, I mean, I'm not knocking it. Personally, I would be happy, but at the same time, there are much better cards that I would hope for, yeah. Yeah, it's just, it is what it is. Yes, having said that, there is one non-sports autograph card I'm really excited about. I think I want to buy just off of eBay. I haven't seen one listed yet. I don't know if you know who I'm talking about, but it is Larry David, the creator of Seinfeld, Curb Your Enthusiasm, the voice of George Steinbrenner in the Seinfeld series. Larry David has his autograph card in 2025 Top Series One. I'm just a huge fan of Larry David in general. So that's the one exception. I think I'm targeting that for sure. So I got a buyer if I ever pull that. Yes, just hit me up for the right price I'm in. Okay, let's end off with autograph cards that are more baseball related. Barry Bonds, I believe it's his first autograph cards in the top set since 2017. So it's been about seven or eight years. So do you think, my question to you is, do you think the tide is changing on how baseball fans and collectors feel about Barry Bonds? It's funny because Barry Bonds is part of my pick one randomly. But yes, I think the thing is, if you didn't watch Barry Bonds, you have no clue what you're talking about. I don't care, end of story. I played this game for a long time. I've coached this game for a long time. If you didn't watch Barry Bonds play in that era, your opinion doesn't matter to me. Because at the end of the day, he is the greatest hitter of all time, period, period. And I know things that a lot of people don't know because I was exposed to that whole environment because I was in professional baseball during the whole steroid era, right? So for me, it's such a tough way to supervise what's right and what's wrong. And for me, the Hall of Fame should be based on what impact they made for the game and how good they were as players. And it should be voted on by the players and for the players, not a third party that decides what is... Because for me, it's like, you've totally tarnished that guy's career. He's done more to baseball than a lot of ex-MLB players. So it's like, to me, it's an unfair justice at the end of the day. And I get both sides. I get it. Like you have the camp that thinks, oh, he should be crucified for life. Like, I don't believe that because there's so much to it that we can't necessarily conclude that. So for me, it's, I think a lot of people are noticing what Barry Bonds has actually done. So if you actually break down his numbers, there are no player in history other than maybe like an old school player, maybe Babe Ruth, maybe Ted Williams, where it's Nintendo numbers. You don't use that term in modern, you know what I mean? At peak in the 90s and 2000s, remember Juan Gonzalez? Like guys like that, Mark McGuire, Sammy Sosa, those are Nintendo numbers. Barry Bonds has been doing Nintendo numbers for decades. And to me, it's like, I look at some of his stuff, especially his autographs, because his autos are nowhere to be found. You cannot get a good auto of him. You have to look at really rare auto sets that are not, they don't even look good because they're so old and some are in black ink, some are smudged and it's in the 90s and 2000s, right? So long answer short, yes, I think people are starting to turn the page at least somewhat. And I would like to see it too, because to me, I judge the player by the impact he had on the game and how good he was as a player. Yeah, I think the tie is changing too. That's why I asked the question, just by virtue of including his autos in the set and having more people know or want to know what Barry Bonds' career was about. And the biggest argument for me to include him in the Hall of Fame, whether regardless of where you stand on the steroid issue is there was a time before people speculated that he took steroids. That time before that era, he was putting up crazy numbers even then. You know what I mean? Like 40, 40 seasons, like it was ridiculous, you know? So yeah, so I think it's cool. And oh, I also wanted to mention his autographs, one of the nicest autographs around. Yeah, it looks nice. You know what I mean? If you look at it. He signed a few cards, huh, in life? I feel like he's still maybe a little bit curmudgeon-y in real life, probably. So he probably didn't sign as many as other people. He's like, okay, I'm tired. I'm just, this is all I'm signing now. And with guys like Barry, you're like, you'll take what you get, you know? Like whatever he gives you, you're happy with, so. No, and just to add this, remember, the only player in MLB history to hit 700-plus home runs and steal 500 bags. I don't know if there is another human being that will ever do that ever again. Never say never, but I'm saying 700 home runs is no easy feat, and Otani's gonna have to do this for a long time, right, to get there, right? So just to put into perspective. Yeah, no, like you said, Nintendo numbers, for sure. That's a great way of putting it. Last thing, do you have any critiques about Top Series 1 this year or in general? In general, well, I express my dislike for the experience that paper products like Flagship, Top Series 1, Series 2 bring. It is a very boring rip, so that would be one kind of like a thing that I would look to improve or want to look to improve. But I would say even the design, too. I think it's pretty weak, to be honest. You don't like it, eh? I don't like it. Maybe, but that's the thing. It usually changes. Like I wasn't a fan of 2020, and I was, I still stand by it. I think it's such a weak design. The parallels are weak. 2021, 2022 weren't great either. 2023 was decent. 2024 was really good. And then 2025, I feel like is more of a disappointment. So for me, and then like 2018, 2019, I loved. So that's the way I. see it. It's like I have love hate for the sets. Like I think 2020 was by far the worst year. So I don't think it's at that point. Yeah. But I don't think it's like last year's design. I love I thought they did a lot of 2024. Great job. But then I wouldn't put it as high as like 2018 or 2019. But I would put it up there, right 2025. And maybe maybe it's going to be different. Maybe I rip open a box and then it grows on me. And you know, I changed my mind. But from right now from initial like just seeing images. I'm not a fan of the design. It could change though. Yes, one of those things that it just kind of sometimes it grows on you. And I think it's already happening to me for 2025. Initially, I was like, yeah, man. But now I'm like, you know, it's not as bad as I thought. I don't, I don't mind it as. Yeah, as much. So it's growing on me already. But yeah, I agree with you. 2024 was much better. I don't know if it was just because it was really different. But and I can envision even when top series one came out, like, oh, you're like, already thinking tops, Chrome is going to be really nice when that set comes out for 2024. I'm not sure I can say the same for 2025. But we'll see. We'll see. The only critique I have is like, you know, I love home field advantage. And I completed the 2022 home field advantage. Although they kept on adding 10 more for series one to an update. Series one 2025 has 20 home field advantage, right? So they doubled the amount in the set. So I'm guessing to have 20 more in series two and 20 more an update. So they're making those checklists a lot bigger. I wish it was more, you know, I wish it was easier to collect if you were going for the whole set. Now with 60 cards, you're not going to really go for unless you're a hardcore HFA guy. And even though I'm not going to do that. So my only critique. Okay. Yeah. And here's one more critique. So I just kind of found like an Independence Day. I usually check the Independence Day. See, I see how much I like it. But like, I yeah, it's like it's not bad. Like the parallels do look good. But mine only like, but my only like, yeah, you got the whole flag this time. It's just not like stars are just not stars. Really? Or I think one year I forgot what year was just stars on the border. Like, like, think about it like 2018 2019. Why is everybody saying it's it's the best looking parallel set. I think it's because the whole card is the parallel, not the border. Like bring back the whole card as the parallel. Why are you just doing the border that that's what they did with 2020. That was the difference between 2019 and 2020. And I absolutely hated it. Because all they did with the Independence Day and the blacks and the stuff where it was the left side of the card. That was the parallel. When 2019 2018. If you look at so I have the tatties Independence Day 2019. The whole card is the parallel. It looks amazing. 2018 show a Independence Day. The whole card is the parallel. Amazing. Yeah. You know what I mean? Like, why? Why are you just doing the border? It's doesn't even cost different. It's not like there's no business move on that. Like there's no cost. It's the same price. Maybe a graphic designer might be frustrated more because they have to edge up the, the character or the, you know, the player, but come on, man. I'm with you, man. I agree. Maybe not as passionate as you are. But I agree with your general sentiment. I'm looking. I'm a guy. That's why I always look at black parallels. And black. Yes. Yeah. 2020. The 2020 tops independence. Yeah, you're right. It's just that one side of the card. So weak. And the problem with that is you just don't know if it's an Independence Day parallel just by a quick glance, right? You want to know exactly right away, right when you hit something. Absolutely. Yeah. So I agree. All right. With that said, I'm definitely have to get a pickup at least a hobby box to rip and then you know, we'll see. We'll come out with but yeah, once we do that, I'll put up on our YouTube site so we can share our hits if we get any. Oh, you know what, I'll actually end off with what john mentioned in this in our chat group, because I think it's a good point. He said, quote, even if things get gimmicky, I prefer that over parallels. And he mentioned that, you know, we all seem to have parallel fatigue, you know, especially when it comes to panini products, right? So, so yeah, I thought was a good point that, you know, instead of having 20 more parallels of new parallels of a card, to be more creative, I guess, in terms of like, what you know, for that, for sure. Yeah. Agreed. All right, let's do a mailback segment. We got a couple of questions via DM on my Instagram page at five card guys. And on our podcast page at cards to the moon, you can find those links in the show notes below. The first one is from at weekends, underscore R underscore four, underscore cards, weekends are for cards on IG. And he says he's a fan of the pod. So thanks for tuning in week after week. He asks, quote, Could you give me your thoughts on when a player's first Bowman auto is commensurate to its first Bowman non auto question I've long pondered and seeing how this plays out in football slash basketball prism only adds to the question. In prism, the non auto parallel seem to be more desired. Thanks, end quote. So I mentioned to him, we did talk about this long ago. I don't know if you remember, but when it comes to basketball cards, we also realized for some reason, autographed rookie cards aren't as desired as you know, the more rare non parallel, or sorry, the more rare non auto parallel cards, rookie cards. And I guess it's generally true for panini football prism cards as well, the same rule applies. And I think we just attributed that to hobby logic, one of those things, right. But I think the question is asking whether that applies for baseball cards, too. Is there like a point where a first Bowman autograph card of a player is close to the value of a first Bowman non auto card? Maybe it's a more rare, more rare refractor? Yes, I think I think baseball has been interesting, because I was always in the camp where non auto first Bowman's were undervalued. So I would I would always treat it as a goodbye. Right, right. So if you want, so instead of getting the tops from rookie card, three years later, maybe the play is a colored parallel of a non auto because the autos would be super inflated of like a Bobby Witt Jr. Instead of 2022, tops from rookie parallel, why don't you go for a parallel of Bowman chrome first non auto of Bobby Witt Jr. Right. So I always and I I've played that game too. I've I've done well on first Bowman non auto like I had a Bobby Witt orange shimmer, non auto, the first chrome is the centering sucked. But it was like, I got a graded with SGC because of the centering, but it was an SGC nine. But I and I, at the time, nobody wanted it. Everybody was after the auto, I think I bought it for 200 bucks, like before graded raw, an orange shimmer, which is crazy. But then we're just 25 number to 25. But then the non the auto version, like a refractor was going for like 1000 bucks or 800 bucks. So I was like, the better buys the orange shimmer, right. And sure enough, the peak was probably, it's probably worth a lot more. But I remember at the time that I sold that peak, it was like 1200 bucks. And I was happy with kind of like that, that whole flip because, you know, I thought I bought it at a reasonable price. So I always was in the camp that the Bowman first chrome not autos, there's great opportunity. And I think that's the whole point. It's like, I don't think and it goes back to what you said, it's the hobby logic. It's like, why the market is this way? I don't know. But that just shows you that if you believe that it's a good buying opportunity, then it's just a great buying opportunity and people don't realize the value. And it's it's the same thing that we said with like prison basketball autos, maybe prison basketball autos are valuable, long term, but they become a good buy right now because nobody really wants them and I get it like their sticker autos and a lot of panini products and it's not it's different than tops chrome and Bowman chrome. So there's that side of things where I think yeah, hobby logic right now, it doesn't mean it's going to stay forever. Like we said, paper parallels are 5050. And then now paper parallels sell for a fraction of what chrome parallels. So is it a question of Hey, right now during this time, this period? Is it a good buy to go on paper parallels? And we say this would be gs two, is it a good time? Are they undervalued? So that's the same way I treat first Bowman chrome? Nonos? Yeah, for sure. I generally agree as well. Like I did say, if you're comparing like exact parallel, or refracted to refractor, you know, and it's the only difference is if it's auto versus non auto, I think for baseball autograph cards will always be king, right? Like that's, that's, maybe it's in the history, you know, you go to a ballpark, you get the autograph of your favorite baseball player, it's kind of part of the tradition. So there's that, to it, and maybe not as much in the other sports. But, but like you said, I think for the more rare non auto parallels or refractors, certainly there's a play for it. And the thing with these kind of plays is you don't have to invest as much as you would, if you're trying to gamble on a player's autograph card, especially an autographed rookie card. So you know, why not dabble, if you want to take the risk, you know, you get some gold non autos for pretty decent prices on some of the, you know, the key players in the league. Right. And then to add that point, I think, I think, like, the market will dictate that because at the end of the day, like I remember I had like a blue Vladdy first chrome non auto as well. For two years, the thing sat sideways. You know, I mean, it didn't go up, even though Vladdy autos were going up. So I think the market like as a reseller, people have that in the back of their mind, saying I rather have the auto than the non auto like that that's they've made up their mind. It's like, I'm not going into that game. Because if I'm trying to flip this, I know that people will the autos move in value. So I think that's kind of like the behind the force of why because if we just have a history of that, the non auto sitting sideways, right. But I also believe that that could change over time. Yeah, no, for sure. Like, I'm not even looking at like, if you use Mike Trout as example is 2011 Bowman chrome gold, not autographed card, right? bgs nine sold for 3400. Like, you know, that's Yeah, but that so that so that the only difference there would be like 2009 would have been his first auto, right? So like that is the 2011 would technically just be a rookie card Bowman, because Mike, Mike Trout didn't have the non auto in 2009. He just had a auto Bowman. But imagine if he did have a non auto 2009. First card, I think that would be a very desirable card. Sure. Yeah, I should look for a better example. But yeah, I definitely generally know, I definitely agree with that assessment. Okay. So I hope that helps you out. weekends are for cards on IG. Alright, let's go to the second question is from our hobby friend Josh, who's at inspired sports cards on IG. He says there was a recent sale of a shohei Otani card and specifically the 2018 Donruss optic gold vinyl one of one rookie autograph card. Okay, on card auto too. It's raw, but it's encased. So it's protected. And it went for $31,200. Okay, 31 200. And Josh wants to know if you think that was an overpay, an underpay, if it was fair, and what the future growth potential is for this card, especially from that $31,000 mark. And I should note before you answer that, of course, Donruss optic is unlicensed, right? But it does have the rated rookie brand going for it. So various factors to consider. Um, yeah, I, we actually talked about this with Josh, back in July. Because it was it was a question of would you trade because he I believe Josh has a one on one white box, Otani auto, which is a beautiful, beautiful card. And that's what we talked about. It's like, would you trade this for a red ink auto? Right licensed, licensed red ink auto. And my answer to him at the time was, I'll pull it up. But I said, that's a tough one. I think the red ink will be more liquid, but this can fetch a premium at the right time. Right. And that's the way I see it. It's like, that's what we're talking about. Like that. Is that 31,000 of valid sale, it is a valid sale, because somebody thought it was worth it. And it was a deal, right at at this time. But does the generic general public who's in the market for that? Would they have paid 31,000? That's to be determined, right? Because then you would need another buyer to make sure that that comp is like where the market's valued at. And that's the tricky part of valuing one of ones, right, is that the last previous comp could have been 9000, or whatever it was. And now it's like 31k. Right. And that's, I think the beauty of holding scarce, highly desirable cards. And from this case, even though it's non licensed, it has Otani's on card auto, the rated rookie emblem that you're talking about. So it has a lot of IAPL. Plus, it's Otani's original auto autograph. And especially now that Otani changed it again, which is ugly. It's like what he tried to be fancy. And then he just scribbles it. And I remember I forgot who was just saying that, like, no, there's gonna be no 10 autos, because of the streak, he does it so quick, it's always streaky, you're never going to get a 10 auto on it. So for me, that's those are little things that I think long term will really impact the value of Otani auto cards. And the pre 2020 autos that Otani did, right. So um, with that said, is it is $31,000 a reasonable sale? I think it's a great I think, if anything, I would be excited because that would be technically your closest comp to your your one of one, right? So I think I think the question is cannot be answered whether that was justified or not. But I think it is there it happened and you have something that is somewhat comparable. So it your comp, it increases your value a lot. So at the end of the day, I think it was great that you held it. Hopefully you held it and not sold it. Hopefully this is a question you're not like regretting. But yeah, I would I would say, yeah, you it's right there, it would it would be valued at that or around, right? Whether it goes down to 25 or 20. Because of the next comp that's to be determined, right? Or it could go up. Yeah. No, I like I like to play I think, you know, if I think if you got to hold it now, if you bought that 31,000, I don't think you could flip it right away to get Yes, for sure. Huge profit on it. You got to hold it. Let let Otani do crazy things. And then put it up for auction again. And then just really up play what you mentioned. It's a one of one. It's a rated rookie card. You know, it's on card original auto of Shohei. And then all you need is one buyer to go over 31,000. Right. So that's, that's the risk. But that's the play. And the only reason why I'm hesitant to, you know, like, say that it's a good short term flip is because if you look at comps of licensed product, kind of what you're mentioning with the red ink, like what else can you get for the 30,000 mark. And right now you could get a 2018 Bowman chrome autograph rookie blue refractor number two 150 the batting stance PSA 10, PSA 10. I think most people would rather get that card. I think one gold vinyl right now at least. Yeah. So the value goes up a lot. You're comparing a PSA eight red ink to now the Bowman chrome. Yeah. So, you know, I mean, you never know. You just need one buyer, but, but yeah, that's, that's what I like to do is kind of compare what else could I get for that price. And if I was a buyer, which one would I rather have? And right now I would rather have the Bowman chrome blue on card auto. And it's also an original auto of course, because it's from his rookie season. Right. Yeah. I agree. All right. There you go, Josh. We said we would address it on the show. So thanks for both Josh and we can for our, for cards submitting those questions. You can always DM us at five card guys or add cards to the moon like they did. And we'll try to address it in a future episode. Okay. Let's end off the show with our regular weekly segment. We call pick one as usual. Do you want to start things off for us? You mentioned Barry bonds. Yeah. I'm bringing Barry bonds back and I already know your answer, but I just, I want to do this more of a discussion because I want to understand, I guess I know the answer because it's like the modern versus vintage, but like, what would you do if, if let's bring back the tops, Tiffany, 1986, Barry Vons. So this is the grail. It's not the most expensive, I would say rookie card because he has some really rare stuff that might go bananas, but I would say this is the most expensive, highly desired rookie card of Barry bonds. So the last three comps there's only three sales actually from December 8th to February 2nd. And both of the most recent sale happened last week. So February 2nd, right? So one sold for 6,500, this is PSA 10 and one sold for 7,877. And then the one in December sold for 6,400. So that that's quite the bump since what we said, it was a good buy at 5,000. I remember we were saying, Hey, $5,000 top, Tiffany might be a good buy based on the pop count. So would you rather right now spend 6,800 on this top, Tiffany, Barry bonds. Now that we talk about like where we sit with the whole, you know, steroid issue, or would you rather a PSA eight tops, crumb update, red refractor out of five Paul skeins and art and auto. So rookie auto PSA eight sold for 5,600 bucks. Hmm. So it's like, what's I want to know there's two buyers that obviously paid $6,000. Obviously, Barry bonds a little more. So you pay that little premium, but I want you to justify buying Paul skeins. I mean, the best justification for getting that particular Paul skeins cart is that it's numbered to five, right? It's super scarce. And if Paul skeins has another monster season, like he has, right, that can really go up because it's so scarce. So the ceiling ceiling on the modern card. So do you think, do you think Paul skeins is that type of player like Otani that would have a second bump? Or has, have we seen it? Does he fall under like the John Moran category? Man, it's so hard to say. Because pitchers never, ever done it. Right. Exactly. I always put Paul skeins as, you know, he's a pitcher. So there's a stigma that comes with pitchers in the hobby, you know, like, and, you know, he throws so hard and I'm still nervous about him having an IL stint, which is very possible TJ or even worse. Right. Yeah. Like a TJ surgery. So, um, so for those reasons, I'm, I'm not, you know, eager to invest in a very super high end rare pitcher, even if it is Paul skeins. Right. So, I mean, my answer is obviously Barry bonds. Yeah. That's what I figured. So, yeah. But, um, I could see if you run to take the risk for a short-term flip, like if he does have a great season till the all-star break gets into the all-star team, you know, dominates for the first half, then I think I, you know, you could probably sell it for. So you wouldn't see that with Barry bonds necessarily this top Stephanie it's it's, it's sideways. It's sideways, but it's got a floor. It's it's the floor. Right. Right. Right. And I think it has room to go up over time. Yeah. Um, especially, you know, who knows, right. With the hall of fame discussion, who knows with, you know, more people coming on board. We were talking about it earlier in the episode is the tie changing on how people feel about Barry bonds. I think that's true as well. So I think there's an opportunity for that card to go in, um, increase in price, but maybe not as potentially as quickly as a Paul skeins makes sense card. And, and I think, um, there is a little bump already on that Barry bonds card. That's why I knew, I knew the answer was Barry bonds. I was saying at like what price would that justification happen with that Paul skeins card, if it was like 3000 or 4,000 for the Paul skeins and 7,000 for the Barry bonds, it's like, those are the kinds of questions. Cause then it becomes, okay, what is my play with it? So I'm just like, just painting out a scenario. I knew your answer. Cause I would, I would choose the Barry bonds tops Tiffany too. Right. But then I think about it. It's like my basic behavior over the last five years shows that I, I am not keeping many cards. So I ended up selling it. So maybe Paul skeins would be the answer based on my habits. Right? So if, if I was starting a new collection, I think I would go Barry bonds for sure. But I think I would consider it if, if I'm in that kind of like, you know what, I don't know if I'm going to hold it. It's not longterm. It's more of a, Hey, I think this is really cheap right now. And I could, if Paul skeins is going to have a season or maybe even sell it to Paul skeins, like, yeah. So it's kind of one of those. So I just wanted to kind of get your take on it too. I guess more of a, like, I knew your answer. I knew your, it would, it would be top Stephanie. And I think 99% of people would say that, but I think our habits would be closer to 50, 50. Yeah. I could see that for sure. Yeah. That's a good one. All right. Maybe we'll do a poll on a five car guys. See what people think. That'll be interesting. All right. We'll end off with this. The super bowl just happened. So I think it might be a good timely pick one on one side. You got Patrick Mahomes, silver prism, 2017 silver prism, rookie card pop counts nine 68. It's sold a couple of days ago after a super bowl loss for 5,500. Sorry. Say that again. Say that again. The, the, the card. Yeah. Yeah. The 2017 silver, silver prism, his rookie. Yeah. PSA 10 5,500. Okay. Pop counts nine 68, just under a thousand. Right. Or Tom Brady, the 2000 Bowman, Tom Brady, a rookie card, not the Chrome, just a Bowman. Okay. Yep. So last week for 5,975. So let's say 6k for both. Which one would you go for? The Brady 2000 Bowman PSA 10 rookie or the Patrick Mahomes silver prism, PSA 10 rookie. And the pop count for the 2000 Bowman is 474. So about half of the silver prism of Mahomes. Man, I, here's the problem I have is Bowman Chrome is what everybody wants of Tom Brady. So for me, it's like very expensive. It's very easy. Yeah. That's what I'm saying. So if we compare apples to apples, so like, I, I feel like even though Patrick Mahomes didn't come with a super bowl, I think he's the, still the next closest to Tom Brady. And that's, I think that's the question everybody has. It's like, who's the next Tom Brady. Right. So for me, I've seen this card go bonkers. What at peak, what was this? At peak? It was over 14,000. Yeah. So I, I would, I would say the floor would be, who knows in this off season, it might drip down to 5,000 to 4,000 maybe. But I think that that's like, you're talking floor because 900 under a thousand is still low in terms of the pop count. And for me, the silver prism, especially in those years, they're, they're actually rare. They're not like the silver prisms that they mass produce like the Lucas and stuff like that. So I would say, I would say it's the Mahomes for me. I think it would be one of his best rookie cards to get like 2016, the XRC would be like, kind of like, I would say the grail rookie card to chase after. So it's not at that level, but for that price at 5k, I think the right buy is the Mahomes, but I see that card kind of going down. So it might not be a good time to buy right now. Right. Okay. You know what I'm going with my homes too. I hope, I hope Brady lovers don't attack us for this episode, but you know why? Cause you're right. The Bowman Chrome is what collectors want the Tom Brady Bowman Chrome, not just the Bowman, but Bowman Chrome and his, his PSA 10 rookie card of his Bowman Chrome just sold for 7,900. Right. Okay. So Chrome is Chrome is the right play, right? Yeah. I thought it would be a lot more for some reason. Do you know what I mean? Like 6k for a paper Bowman or sorry, it's 2000 Bowman paper, I guess. But that's probably maybe why pop counts are lower too, right? Yes. So the pop count for what the, the paper paper. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Cause the Bowman Chrome PSA 10 is 1200 and it's half. So it makes sense. Yes. Right. Yeah. But still I would rather have the, I rather have the Chrome. Exactly. It's more liquid. This is what people want. Right. And the card looks better, I think for sure. I agreed. So yeah, for that reason, even, even that reason alone I would rather have the, the silver prism my homes. What if we did, what if you did it Chrome versus the silver Mahomes? Ooh, that's a good question. So 8,000 for the Bowman Chrome of Brady versus 6,000 for the silver prism. The price it's the price. It's the, it's the price. Yeah. It's a price. Yeah. I mean, I would, I would love to have the Bowman Chrome, but yeah, I just, you know what? I was kind of happy that the chiefs lost as a collector. Cause maybe if the prices do dip, this is the time, this is the time to get my homes cards, you know? Cause I, he's not done. He's not done. There could be haters and I hope there are more haters and then they'll create some kind of FUD and you know, have people like liquidate some of their homes cards. You'll be there waiting. I'm buying at that point. Yeah, for sure. Here's, here's a, here's a bonus one, Clark. Okay. Bowman, Bowman Chrome or the tops Bowman Chrome, Brady or the top Stephanie Barry Bonds. Oh, cross sports. It's the winner of both. Damn. That's hard because my natural inclination is like, I'm a baseball card collector, but at the same time, Brady's a safe, you know, he's safe. There's still question marks with Barry Bonds. I think the tide is changing, but there's still a risk factor in investing in Barry Bonds cards. It's like, it's a non-zero risk, right? So where's Brady? I'll go with Brady in this case. I'll play it safe. I'm going Barry Bonds, lower pop. You're dying. You're going down with the ship. I'm going down with the ship. I'm with you, Barry. It's Shung and Barry. All right. Good one. We'll end off the episode with that. Thanks again to all. listeners to subscribers and again if you want to DM us any questions at 5cardguys or at Cards to the Moon and we'll try to address any of those in a future episode and we'll have a brand new episode for you on Friday. Talk to you then, bye. Hey thanks for listening to Cards to the Moon. We'd really appreciate you subscribing to our podcast wherever you listen to your podcasts and you can also connect with each of us on Instagram at 5cardguys or you can follow Hyung at Integrity Sports Cards or John at TradeUatRecess. You can also check us out at 5cardguys.com. Thanks again and hope to connect soon.