Why Collectors Fall in Love With Flawed Cards | The Hangover Ep. 2

All right, guys, welcome back to the Hangover brought to you by Sports Cards Live on the Sports Card Clubhouse. My name is Jeremy Lee. I'm joined with two two of the Sports Cards Live Saturday night regulars. We got Mr. Joe Perot and Mr. David Chase. Gentlemen, we are back for episode two of the Hangover. David, you were here before. Joe, welcome to your first appearance on this new piece of content exclusive on Sports Card Clubhouse. How you doing, buddy? Doing great, thanks. Great to be here. Good to see you, David. Jerry Lee, you know what has it been 48 hours for, for us since we last it? It's almost like we were just here doing Sports Cards live on Saturday. We are recording today here Monday, May 25th. This is dropping on Wednesday, May 27th. Just so everybody understands the timelines here. David Chase, welcome back, buddy. Thank you. I'm happy to be here and I love having my buddy Joe here with us. Let's get this going. Let's get this going. We have a few things we're going to cover today. We've actually got four topics on the agenda. We'll see if we get through all of them. Before we get into any of them, I do want to do a couple of shout outs for some of my projects that I'm working on. Guys, if you are not yet on the hobby spectrum.com check it out. You take a 50 question diagnostic assessment. It puts you into one of these seven core archetypes and helps you understand what your your core motivations are in the hobby. You then can opt into the directory which looks like this. And as you can see here, just as an example, this person here who's opted in has added up about 10 players that he collects for teams for sports, added all of his social media accounts, his podcast, his hobby platform and other links as well. A really great tool for discovery whether you're discovering your own identity, other collectors who similar mindsets and other collectors who collect similar to the way you do. Please go check out the Hobby Spectrum. It's free to participate and I hope you guys enjoy that. All right. Also pops and comps, my book is available on Amazon.com and finally, if you're not yet following me on Instagram, J. Lee underscore sports cards live and my new account just for my personal collection cards. Jay Lee underscore cards Guys, any shout outs, anything you want to Joe joe on Instagram cali dreaming84 David is his new person. His hobby account is a work in process, isn't it David? No, it's not even a work in Progress. I, I, I don't even care about my hobby account. Instead, follow these two guys. They're the superstars here. I'm just here mail days. All right. What I like to do here on the hangover is because we don't do this on sports cards live very often, but a few pickups we've had. I, I bought two cards last night, guys on fanatics collects weekly auction. I, I do a Sunday night show covering that auction. And I just so happen to be bidding on cards as well. I won two cards last night. Joe. You won one card. Let's see what we picked up last night. I'm going to go back to the old school screen share here. And who do we. Whose card should we. David, you decide. My two cards first or Joe's. One card first. I want to see Joe's card first, please. All right, Joe, I'm gonna bring it up and get ready to talk about. Here we go. Here's the car Joe picked up last night on fanatics collect weekly auction 2004 upper deck hardcourt. Vince Carter etched in time, one of one in a PSA7 holder. Joe, tell us about this card. Why, what, what brought you to it? What do you love about it? Why'd you buy it? How'd you make those decisions last night? Well, I became exposed to the card down there in Ontario when our guy HOJ picked up an MJ version of this card raw in the wild. I think subsequently he's had it graded. But it's a singular card. It does not connect to any other card. It is the only one of one. There's no of 20. There's no of 50. So it's maybe in the lexicon of, of sports cards collecting. It's a masterpiece. 1 of 1 and this particular one, you can see the etched theme is that little wood chip there where it's acknowledging that Vince holds the record. And he still does. He's tied now with Damian Lillard for the most three pointers in a single half in a playoff game, which is eight. And he went on to score 50 points. I actually have a vague memory of that 2001 Eastern Conference semifinals against the Sixers. It was the year Kobe and Shaq ended up taking the title. But the sixers lost to them. But the, but the Raptors, and I mean Vin Sanity, come on. I know we got some Canadian viewers out there. Talking the other night with Jace reminded me of Kawhi. I feel like the Raptors and Vince Carter in particular, kind of underrated and kind of at the Time Vin Sanity was like he was coming for mj. So, anyway, cool card. And anytime you add a one of one in with Vince in a Raptors jersey, you got to be happy. I love it, man. Air Canada. We had Air Jordan. He was Air Canada. What do you think, David? How do you like the card? I mean, I love it. Is I. Do you have a large Vince Carter collection, or is this your only Vince Carter card? It. I've got a couple, but most of the Vince Carter cards I have are when I was actually opening packs, like in the early 2000s. So they're, you know, or. Or f. Fishing in the dollar box, you know, and. And. And scoring those kind of things because he was, I mean, like 99 to 2, 2001. He was, like, blowing up. So I'm sure Jay Lee remembers all that. But no, it's more dunks. Yeah. It's more the hallmark now, David, of my Vince Carter collection, I would say. Well done, Joe. Well done. Beautiful pickup. I love it. I love it. It's great. I love Vince and the Raptors uniform. And the 101 nature of it, of course, makes it very special. All right, two cards I picked up. Let's go to the first one. Here it is. I picked up the 1966 Marvel Superman card. This is the. What y' all mean $0.50 extra for gift wrapping card. This is card number 38. The 1966 Marvel superhero set is really cool. 66 card set. And I believe there's six or seven different superheroes featured. They each have a subset within the master set here. And the Spider man cards are cars number 34 to 44. This is card 38. Typically, the first of that. Of that run is considered the rookie card. So Spider Man's rookie card would be considered card number 34. This is card 38. I thought it was really cool. I thought for the grade in a PSA3 holder. It just looked beautiful for the grade. So I grabbed that. I got all excited in the. In the. You know, the. The action of the auction. I grabbed this one. So this is my very first 66 marvel superhero card. This is the Spider man copy. And then I picked up this one as well. The Iron man card number 19, titled, please, I'd rather do it myself. And, guys, I just think that this card is beautiful. The colors, a big image of Iron man himself there. His cards run 12 to 22 in the 66 card set. This is card number 19. So I grabbed these. My very first. My very first Marvel superhero cards from 1966. And I, I just really enj. Non sport. Not all non sport, but some non sport. And I'm excited to get these. I've already paid for them. They are already being shipped to me here in Canada. I will be hit with a bit of a duty, customs duty when they come across the border, but I'm excited to. To receive those. So there we go fellows. Those are mine. Any thoughts on those guys? David, what do you think? Yeah, I mean I, I love those cards. It's funny to me how with the superhero cards in these sets, that first card is so much more expensive than the other ones even though they all came out in the same set. And I kind of refer that back to like the 33 gowdy set with the garrig where those two cards are very similarly priced. I know, Jeremy, I've asked you that question when I was just a commenter about that actually where you wanted that number 92, I think it is the first one but in reality because the second one has a little bit lower pop, they're the same price pretty much. And it's just so crazy how that first card, like the Superman card you have too, is so much more expensive than the other ones in the same set. Same. What about, you know, you. I, I would. My mind went to the Garrigs as well from 33 gouting. Then my mind also goes to the Babe Ruths which it seems like for the Babe Ruths. Now noted that the Babe Ruths aren't considered the rookies. I think 33 Gowdy, a lot of people consider those to be the Garrig rookies even though he's got that earlier exhibit or whichever card that is the oversized one. But for the Babe Ruth guys, it feels like people just consider all four of them equal. For the roofs, number 53 being the lowest number. The yellow portrait is kind of to me the most iconic of them all. But really people don't really care about that when it comes to. They like all of them. So I don't know how to reconcile that or if it even matters. But I. What you're saying back to your main point as far as these superhero cards, you know, it's all. The other thing is that like I, I'm. I do COVET More the first cards of these superheroes in the 66 Don Rush. They just weren't available and I'm okay having these ones as well but I'm also on this, like I don't need to collect rookie cards all the time so that these new pickups fit into that for me. But that said, I still want the first, the earlier numbered cards and then those would fit with my like what I would consider to be the, the rookie cards. And I still do love rookie cards and collect them, even though I also love non rookie cards. Joe, any thoughts on. On the Marvel pieces? I love the little descriptors there about the wrapping paper and then, you know, do it myself. They, they clearly are bringing some humor to the images. And as you mentioned, you definitely scored, you know, high, high eye appeal for the grade. The colors. 1966 was a spectacular year for reasons having to do with my own birth. And I think that's also the year that that pretty famous Batman set came out too. So they must have been very much keyed into kind of, you know, the comic hero cards at that point. And, and that was sort of a moment, like a renaissance moment for, for that area of creation. But beautiful colors. Beautiful colors. Right on. Well, appreciate it, guys. I'm very excited to get those. Congrats, Joe, on your Vince Carter. David, next time we record the Hangover, you'll have, hopefully you'll have something to share. If not, that's okay too. I showed it on Sports Cards Live. I showed a pickup that I had at the, at the card show that I went to, so I didn't want to show it twice. Fair enough. You can all. And by the way, this is exclusive sports Card Clubhouse content, but for more of us three, we are part of the overall the the crew of regulars on Sports Cards Live on Saturday nights on my YouTube channel, which is called Sports Cards Live. We also have Chris Hoage from Card Ladder, Josh Adams, who's Midwest Vintage on instagram and from 90s auctions, joins us. Leighton Sheldon from Just Collect comes in twice a month usually and joins us as well over there. We'll, we'll have those guys on this on the Hangover in due course here, guys. But let's get into our first sort of topic of the night, and this is one that is, it provides a bit of continuity between episode two here, the Hangover, and last week's episode one where we were talking about card deformities. And one commenter, I don't know if you guys have heard of this guy, but there's, there's a commenter and I'm just gonna bring up his comment right here. His name is Mookie Chilson and he was so excited he wrote what a brilliant debut episode, fellas. And I just thought that was so kind of him to give us that comment. He Called us brilliant. He called us fellas. What a. For extra emphasis. I was just so excited to see Mookie write that this was a brilliant debut episode last week on the Clubhouse, the Hangover. So nice of him, but it doesn't end there. All right, the comment continues and let's get the rest of it. He says, I think there are malformations and deformities in cards. He goes on to say, malformed cards are literally made wrong. Could be a rough cut, a fisheye, diamond cut, ink missing, etc. Deformed cards include the category of malformed cards, but I think they also include post production alterations, pinholes, writing on them, cornerware, sun fading, paper loss, etc. He concludes and says, therefore a malformation is a deformity, but a deformity isn't necessarily a malformation. So he's drawing the line and saying malformed cards are just produced with some flaw, whereas a deformed card is, is something that is that, that is a, an impact on the card itself post birth, after it's come out of its pack. The pack is the womb. After it comes out of the card, womb. It is therefore damaged in some way, shape or form damaged or altered. So I thought this is a really interesting comment because we talked about this last week and we were kind of in the. The last episode of the Hangover, episode one was me and David and we were kind of talking about this deformities issue. We were making it up as we go along. I would say David and that we were kind of figuring it out in our minds on the fly. And I think it's an interesting topic and I like where Mookie Chilson's mind is going here as he's trying to take that concept and really, you know, flesh it out, think it through. Because we didn't really do that. And I think that this is progressing that discussion. If we were to say, hey, let's come up with some definitions for what a deformity is or what a malformation is on a card. So I'll just kind of start with a couple of my thoughts guys on his comment and, and then we'll go to Joe and David and get your thoughts. But the one thing that I, I'm not totally comfortable with with what he says here is where he says that malformed cards are literally made wrong. Because to me, when I think of a malformation, I think about the physical object itself, the physical nature of it, not necessarily the way it looks, if you can discern between those two things. So Where I'm drawing, where I'm sort of drawing a line is. I agree with him that a rough cut is a malformation. A diamond cut, where it's not a perfect rectangle is a malformation. I have, I have. My definition of diamond cut is different than a lot. I, I separate diamond cut from tilt. A lot of cards that are printed where the, the, the card canvas is a perfect rectangle with 490 degree angles, but the image is applied to the. Was printed on the card until to me, that's a centering issue, not diamond cut. To me, diamond cut is where the cut of the card is actually more like a diamond, I. E. It is not a perfect rectangle. You have, you have a parallelogram of sorts. And so I think that diamond cut is a malformation. Ink missing though, to me, like for example, the 1990 Tops Frank Thomas error, there's ink missing. I don't think that's a malformation. I think that's a, a print error. I think that's something a little bit different. But I'm okay including it if we have to. I don't feel that passionately about it. I'm just explaining my thought on it, so. But I do like how he is separating out a card that comes out of the pack with flaws versus one that is flawed afterwards. And so I'm still not sure how to properly define or, you know, distinguish between malformation and deformities when it comes to cards. But I think there's something to this discussion. And again, I don't plan, I don't, I don't intend for us to get to the answer here today or ever. Maybe not, but we'll see if there's more discussion about it. But with all that said, let's, let's see which of you guys has some thoughts. Kind of ready to go first. Just let's see who has, who wants to go first here. Okay, David, what are your thoughts? Yeah, I mean, man, I mean those definitions, listen, you guys are smarter than me, but I'll tell you, between pre out of the packet and post out of the package, I think some of the things that Jeremy and I even spoke about, even off air about it, you know, writing on a card, I don't know if that's really makes it a card. Deformed. Right. The way we were kind of thinking about it even is like a tattoo. Right. I guess there's some people that would say that that can be a form of having somebody be deformed, but not really, in my opinion. Also, like sunwear, could that be like a major sunburn? I don't know. Because the sunburn heals and sunwear on a card does not. Paper loss. I can see that because it really does take off the card and it's permanent. Unlike paper, gain would not be right from it's ripped out of the scrapbook. So, man, there's so many different ways to go through this. But I really think the way that you were thinking, Jeremy, for deformities is really pre pack pulled. That came out in a negative way. That is not typical. There wasn't very many of them. It's kind of a one off scenario on a card, right? Yeah, that is, we're kind of thinking. That is what I was thinking last week and I, I am realizing that I think that was a little limited in scope. And I do agree with Mookie here that a deformity would include a car that comes out of the pack with that deformity. But a pinhole, I agree, is a deformity. A paper loss post birth is also a deformity. So I'm, I'm, I'm willing to broaden the scope of the definition that I came up with sort of in my mind on the fly last week to include those things. So I certainly agree. But like you, I love the analogies you came up with there. You know, ink or writing on the card, that's like a tattoo, sun fading, that's like a sunburn. And even though sunburns go away, they, they can leave scars if they're really bad. So, you know, there are, there are good analogies there. But I am certainly willing again to expand the scope of the definition from what I was saying last week to what we're saying now. Joe, what do you think about all this? Well, for starters, I, I feel like Mookie Chilson is Alfred Hitchcock, you know, who appears in his own movies at various moments. You just don't know quite when it's going to be. I, he's, he's elusive. He's very elusive. But if you look closely, you will, you will find the mooc. The mooc. I, I don't know. I, I. Not to get into like the semantics of malformed, deformed. I just think all cards have stories. Some are, you know, production, pre production production, and then post production moments in their, in their journey. And one of the areas that I would distinguish is kind of deformities or malformities that are lapses versus more intentional participation with the card. For instance, Mookie is also well known for his pinhole collection. And I think it was. Greg made the point that, you know, generally pinholes are the byproduct of somebody, you know, showing the card on a. On a board or something, you know, somehow or another displaying it. And for that reason, it's. It's kind of an honorific, if you will. This. This card meant enough to somebody at some point before maybe condition was understood to be so critical that they. They displayed it in their home or, you know, maybe in their garage or in their workshed or something. Similarly writing. I've had a number of cards where, you know, somebody puts the position of a player or maybe, you know, the average, their average, which to me also sort of speaks to a certain love and participation with the cardboard that I find compelling. I don't, you know, I don't want to necessarily champion them too much, but there. There are, you know, those kind of deformities, I suppose, that don't bother me as much versus, you know, things that are like registration and centering, where I. I have a. Sometimes a little harder time getting past. Yeah, yeah. I don't think registration, centering are deformities. Again, the other thing, what you're talking about, the pinhole and the honorarium sort of thing, or the how I. I think the way. And I remember hearing that discussion, I get that Greg was having, you know, I think it was Greg. But that the cards were a trophy to somebody. And it adds the story those where there's a pinhole. That card was pinned on a board because somebody loved it that much to put it on display in their bedroom back in the whatever, 30s, 40s, 50s, 60s, 70s sort of thing. And that adds to the story of the card. And I love the idea that cards have stories and were loved in their past, and I love the. I love the pinhole approach that Mookie has. I think it's one of the smartest approaches and in the hobby. David. Yeah. And I just had a question for Joe for that card that he was showing the Kareem Rookie, how it had that little indention, right, like at the side on the edge. Jeremy, that would. Card would not be allowed in his collection. Joe would. Something like that. That looked beautiful in every other way. Do you think that that would be a deal breaker for you? Not a deal breaker, but it probably would bother me more than some areas. Just. I don't know that. That little. The cleft, if you will. Yeah, but. But not. Not horribly. I mean, I. I Guess I, I would need, it would need to be the right price, I guess, and card dependent. Right. It depends on like how big of a grail card it is too, probably. Right. If it's a card. I mean, this might tie into one of our other topics, but the, the idea of, you know, a placeholder or something that, you know you're eventually going to swap out because it is that important of a card for you. If it's not that important, it's just like something that's, you know, representing a cool, a cool moment that you had a chance to acquire a card. Yeah, I could live with it. Yeah. That, that cleft, as you put it, Joe, was the deformity that started that discussion from that Kareem Abdul Jabbar, the luau sindor, 69 tops that we looked at last week and that discussion continued in the, in the comments. There's some good stuff in there, in there as well. So, yeah, I think it's a fun discussion. And you know, I'm thinking about when you asked Joe if it would be a deal breaker for him. And you know, Joe has had some pretty roughed up cards in the past. You have, and we're gonna see one of them shortly here, guys. We're gonna see one of them soon. But, you know, I'd like to hear from people. If you're watching, listening, let us know in the comments. How do you think about this malformity, deformity, pre birth, post birth? And I don't mean birth as off the printing press. To me, a birth means out of the pack. How does it come out of the pack? What happens before it gets before it comes out of the pack versus what happens after it comes out of the pack. Does that matter to you at all? So I think it's interesting, it's a fun thing to discuss and I think we're all still trying to get our heads around how this, how we can understand these, these various flaws and, and issues that the cards have. Any, any. Yeah, Joe, just. I'm thinking about how we've, you know, adopted that phrase honest corners. And it's, it's interesting because it seems like maybe, maybe corners are the one thing that are allowed to be honestly, you know, utilized. But you know, when we, something is sun damage or something has, you know, a mark on it, it maybe isn't considered as, I mean, I'm, I'm being a little exaggerated in that perspective, but the corners seem to be the, the area that we allow for having kind of that engagement with the card that Leads to a condition detraction. And the. When corners are rounded and they, they're, you know, so you. We've got honest corners, which I think is like a petty, a Mike petty sort of term. And then I call. So I, I take it one level further and call them sexy corners. And that's when the on. That's when honest corners are nice and symmetrically rounded across all four of them. Now you've got a sexy rounded corner card. And, and I, I think, I love that because it's honest where it's that part of that story about the card. Again, it's not a pinhole, but it just proves that somebody really enjoyed owning these cards that they got enough where the card experienced enough wear that those corners were nicely rounded. Honestly, I love that. The other thing about that, that Kareem card, that, that divot or that cleft is that to me that card is no longer a perfect rectangle and, and different from rounded corners. And I know this, I know that doesn't really add up, but for me I, if those corners are nicely rounded, but the, the, the side edges and the top and bottom edges are perfectly parallel to each other and not on any angles. And then to me that is still like. It's not a perfect rectangle. I know, but it's a perfect rectangle with you know, even on, on like in Canva and Photoshop, you know, you can adjust the roundness of corners and keep that rectangle intact. And so that's the way I think of it. That's. And this is not about, you know, telling people how things should be. This is just how I appre. What I love about cards and how, what I'm willing. So I'm willing to accept those rounded corners, especially when they are post pack birth. But that divot in the side, that's not something that, you know, all vintage cards have where most vintage cards have some form of rounded corner. So I just didn't like that. It wouldn't be for me. But, but hey, it's, it's a, it's a money saver for a lot of people who want to buy a lower grade card that, that looks great in many other ways. So each to their own, right, Dave? Yeah. And it's very interesting though that it is accepted for these rounded corners because in reality when they're super rounded, it is paper loss. Right. Like if you measure the card out, there is a little bit of paper missing on each corner that makes it rounded and we're okay. Yeah. Right. Is the, is the term honest do you think? I mean, I was thinking it's like. Is a crease dishonest? Is a pinhole dishonest? Is the term honest corners connected to. It's less likely to have been trimmed when you have that. Yes, that's I think how petty views it. Who I think came up with this is that he thinks that it's less of a chance it's been altered when it's honest. Honest corn. Yeah, honest. But you know, it's a good question, Joe, because I think a pinhole. I even think a kid putting their initials on the, on the card somewhere in pen or pencil. I think that's honest too. The intention back then was not to deceive anybody or rip anybody off. That obviously you're not improving the condition of your card. I think those are all honest, you know, alteration. Those are honest alterations. The term alteration often connotes or implies, you know, a negative intent, you know, a misleading intent, taking advantage of somebody. But there are. These are all honest alterations. Now rounded corners, I think are also, you could say they're also an honest alteration. But they happen over time. It doesn't just happen, you know, it's not like you put a, you put a pin hole, you put a thumbtack through a card. That's it. That pinhole is there. It's not really changing. But corners are gradually round more and more over time. Joe, one of my, one of my collecting buddies and I had this one term we used, hbc, handled by child. Which was sort of, you know, a different kind of where. Where it wasn't necessarily an honorarium, it wasn't necessarily an attempt to deceive. It was, you know, just a child doing what children do with objects that they find interesting. I love that. Handled by child. That's awesome. David, what did you want to jump in with? Yeah, I love that too, Joe, that's great. That's a great thought. When you're talking about honesty, you know, about anti alterations and stuff. Some things that I also don't mind as much as other people is sometimes even like a little bit of dirt, right? Because then, you know, it hasn't been cleaned. Or the 51 Bowmans that have wax on the back, which I know can be taken off too. We'll take that. That's an honest back and it's some honest dirt to make it where we know that it hasn't been soaked, you know, you know, this comes like. Exactly. I just, I'm okay with these honest issues. Even a bit, even a bit of a pencil mark on A card. If that's going to save me thousands and thousands of dollars, I think I'm, I'm okay with that. So, yeah, it's a really interesting, interesting topic there. And yeah, I'm kind of really enjoying the idea that honest issues are really just ways to get into higher, I appeal cards at a low, at a lower price. And that's something I think a lot of people are looking for these days, so. All right, guys, you ready to move on to the next topic? Oh, yeah, it's related. It's relate. No, we're gonna save. We're gonna. We're switching up the order that I'd let you guys. We're gonna go now to placeholder cards, David. And the reason, because, hey, it's a nice segue we talked about. You even said it. I think that that that Kareem card, that Alcindor, could be a placeholder for people who might be waiting for. And a lot of cards that are low technical grade and even have eye appeal issues act as placeholders for a lot of people. So this topic came from a discussion, David, that you were having with Midlife Greg. Now, you guys either had it on an, on an issue of midlife card chase, or when you filled in on surface issues, you guys had. I forget which episode it was, but you guys were having a conversation about a much broader topic and you very lightly brushed on the topic of placeholders. And as I was listening, I thought they mentioned it, but they didn't talk about it much. Let's talk about it here on the Hangover Today. The concept of a placeholder card and whether or not you're somebody who, who likes to have a placeholder or you would rather just wait for the actual card you want to own down the road. And I've had varying thoughts on this in the past, but let's start with Joe on this one. Joe, are you somebody who has placeholder cards? You've heard people talk about them. Where do you fall on the idea of having placeholder cards in your collection or for your friends even? I absolutely have been a placeholder in my collection type of collector, but I'm trending away from it. And I think it's partially just seeing, you know, the finite years of existence I have and not wanting to waste time, you know, getting, getting to the end game sooner, but that, that, you know, has to be taken into some consideration with budget and, and sometimes it's a, a wait and see type of thing where I'm not sure if it's a placeholder card or if it's my, my permanent card. I just pulled this out. I don't know if you can see it very well. This is a, obviously a Johnson portrait. And I would say right now this exists as a placeholder card because it's got a lot of tobacco juice. It's got some stuff going on, obviously on the back as well. But what I like about this card is Walter's face and the clarity of the registration and even just the color, notwithstanding the fact that it's got tobacco juice on it, is very nice. So right now I am thinking of this as a placeholder card. But it could be the case that over time I just learned to live with this one and, or embrace it because it's got features and characteristics that I've come to love over time. There's other placeholder cards that I very much discarded, wanted nothing to do with. Why did I ever do this? And so I, I think it's, you know, it's, it's a case by case situation. You made me think of something there, Joe, which is you might go into purchasing a card as a placeholder, but as the time goes by, the days, weeks, months and years go by. If you don't replace it, and you might, your motivation to replace it might diminish over time because like, I have one, I'm going to buy something different now and then. As those, as those time, as the time goes by, you people might have the. Be prone to being, to falling in love with that card and be like, you know what? I've learned to love it for what it is, for all of its flaws and issues. Maybe people learn to love them and keep them and then they, that placeholder turns into a permanent copy. I don't know, I, I feel like that's probably happened to me over time, but I bet it, I'm guessing it's happened to be. Hey, let us know in the comments. Has that happened to you? Have you ever bought a card as a place or as a placeholder and then been content and, and fallen in love with it and decided, nope, that's my copy, I'm in no rush to replace it. Let us know in the comments. Let's go to David, your thoughts on placeholder cards. Yeah, a few. A few years ago, I think I, I ended up buying a lot more placeholder cards than I have now. I think I've kind of developed into not really wanting to do that as often. Now when I buy a card, even if it's not the most perfect copy in the world, it has to be one that I'm okay with for, for a long time. And if I find one that's better, great. But that's kind of my collecting style in general. Like even if I find a card that I think is, is one that I love, sometimes you find one that you love even a little bit more. And I'm okay with that card being a placeholder. Even though I didn't even realize it was a placeholder at that time. I have in love with the card that I did think that I would that was good for a short period of time. One that comes to mind is my Bill Russell Rookie. It's a one, but it's completely centered and has issues all over the place. But I love that card. It's actually one of my favorites. So I did find a way to love it. But I'm now more patient than I've been, which I felt like I've had to developed over time. And the cards that are usually my placeholders in these kind of scenarios are very specific kind of things like low population cards. You know, I'm into these 48 leaf short print cards. They never come up. There's only like 200 of them. So when I like, I need this new houser which for somebody like me cares about that. But when one comes up, even if it's a bad version, I'm going to buy it. And when I find a better one, I will be a placeholder. So it just depends. It's card dependent, you know. But it's not often that I'm buying a card saying this is a placeholder. I I'm gonna like this card for a while. Most likely when the card is super rare, like those leaf short prints you talked about, it comes down to just the own appeal. The appeal is in owning a copy of it. To quote Dance Vintage, who coined that term already feels like way back. So yeah, that's where the placeholders become permanent based on own appeal in a way. So my own thoughts on placeholders are, have kind of evolved over time. Historically. I never, I never wanted a placeholder card because I thought to myself, why put money into a card that I'm not gonna keep if I can go find, but if I can take that same money and go buy other cards for my collection that I want to keep. You often, I mean people often talk about and you hear it, but buy the best you can afford sort of thing. Well, if you buy the best you can afford, you might not have money, as much money left for other cards. So it can Be difficult to allocate your money towards all the cards in your want list, especially when that list is maybe constantly changing for many people. So I've never been a placeholder card buyer and I never would have advised people to buy placeholders. However, I think I have another way of thinking about it now. And I thought of this when I was watching you and Greg talk about this, David, after my, my mind was spinning after hearing you guys kind of just talk about the topic as part of a much broader topic and not getting into it. And that is, I think about especially a card that is say, you know, whatever value valuable and important. Let's say a card that you know isn't gonna go down in value because they printed the 50 like a modern young guns in hockey or a Shohei Tops card or whatever it might be a prism card. Like these cards are moving with the market all the time. So here's where I, where I'm coming from. I think about the world of real estate and a lot of people will just buy a house to get into the market, to ride the market, so that when they find the other house they want to buy in that city or neighborhood, they've already got some, some capital appreciation, some equity that's built because the market has moved. So placeholder cards wise, let's take a, let's take a 48 Leaf Jackie Robinson, for example. You may really want one. And people feel like the market is on fire right now and it seems like there's no end to it, let's say. So somebody might not believe in placeholders, but might say, you know what, I'm gonna go pick up 48 Leaf Jackie that is, you know, maybe I can afford it right now. It's not the card I want for my life hold for my lifelong copy, but it gets me into the market and then when I find a card I want more, I can take that to the show and trade it to the dealer. I paid three grand for it three years ago. Now it's worth ten grand. And it's going to help me get into that card I want. That's 25 grand because I got 7,000 free dollars because the card has gone up in value. So I think that to me is the argument for placeholders is getting you into the market to ride the future value gains, if that's the way that it goes. David, that's a great point. But also, as I've more recently, I'm starting to think with placeholders, which I some really. What does a placeholder mean? It means that you just don't love your copy. Right? That's what that really means. It means that you like it. You just don't love it. So here's the question. Do we have to wait for to us to, to buy that new version before we let this one go when we know that it's not our forever copy anyway, Right? I mean, Joe, I love your copy, but I, I can see by the way when you speak about that, that card, I can see that it's, you know, that it's not your forever card. So if you are going which card are you talking with the Maddie he just showed. Yes, yes, right? Yes, yes. Show that one more time. I love that. I mean, I think it's beautiful. But if you really believe that and we all have limited funds and you're going to the national and you're going to possibly want to pick up a huge card, do you have to pick up that one or can you use that because you know it's not your forever card to pick up another grail card instead. See that what you see, I think what you just said is correct, David. And by buying a card you might not love and getting into the market, you're also giving yourself other options and opportunities down the road. You might not trade that Maddie, if it's a placeholder for another Maddie, you might put it towards something different altogether. All that does is give you more. It's like the real estate you might buy, you might buy a house in, in Phoenix, Arizona to get into the market. But. And you might have a value appreciation. You might want to go move to Georgia later on and use that money buy, buy a house in Georgia. You are still in the market and going to have some value gain. So versus sitting on cash in your bank account, let's say that is earning zero interest and has no capital appreciation and in fact has depreciation as inflation occurs. So that's a great point though, David. Having a placeholder of a card that is not your forever copy may and I think does open up more options for you in the future. It almost becomes trade bait in that way. Listen, I like the card. I want this card represented in my collection. It's. I might replace it down the road. If not, I. It also gives me other opportunities and options as I go to other shows and watch auctions. What do you think, Joe? Yeah, I mean I, I was mentioning to David just the other night that I actually have three 49 Bowman Jackies and one's an SGC, two one's a PSA 2 and one's a PSA 2.5. And when, so when you have the, I mean one of them at least is was and or might be a placeholder or qualify as a placeholder that I'm going to move out of. But in, in owning all three of them, I'm, I'm much more kind of aware of how they affect me, like what I could live with, what I could be interested in. And in some cases, like there's a card I've been fascinated with. It's an American caramel rub waddell and it's got him, you know, Rubo Adel, hall of Fame pitcher with a very interesting personality. And he, he, he's, he's cocking back. It's a beautiful green background and I've had a placeholder card of that for years and I keep waiting for the right one to come along, but somewhere along the way the excitement for owning that card has waned. And so there's, there's also the phenomenon of kind of scratching the itch and feeling like maybe I'm not as motivated as, as I was or I don't need a higher end copy than I already have. I just have it represented. I have some version of it. So I don't know. I think it's a fascinating topic. I do have a little bit of a hoarder streak in me and I don't mind owning multiples. So it's, it's, it's fun to go in and maybe bring this to the national and trade up. But it could also be fun to bring home a new Walter Johnson Big Train T206 portrait and, and have them both and compare them and put them next to each other and kind of go compare the registration, compare the, you know, the, the color and, and all the different idiosyncrasies that you find in especially pre war cards. And then you'll be able to dispose of one when you find a different card that you want more. We're, we're gonna have just a limited time for our final segment. So David, get your last comment in and then we're gonna move on. I love our last segment, so I have to do this fast, but Joe, then at the national, will you be bringing a card like that or one of your Bowman Jackies just in case? What's your thought? I'll, I'll probably be needing to bring some heat because my bank account is depleted. So cards will be the, the, the, the power that I can exert if something were to emerge. So yes, all Right. Good chat. Let us know in the comments how you feel about placeholder cards, what you thought about this discussion. And now we're going to move in to the final segment, the final topic of the day. And this one is the first ever in the world of sports card content for the first time ever. This is like WrestleMania 1, you guys. This is the Jackie off, the very first Jackie off one. And that is what is happening right here today. We are going to have a Look at the 1948 Leaf Jackie Robinson cards that this panel here has possession of. They're in our collection and we're going to go through them all and we're going to start. First of all, before we do this, I have always felt in my for, for 12 years, since I got my 48 leaf Jackie in 2013, up until about two years ago, it was my favorite card of my collection. If everyone, if anyone ever said to me, what's your favorite card in your collection? 48 Leaf Jackie. I consider to be a top five, if not three most iconic, important cards of all time. I don't care how many there are out there, I love it. There's a lot of Griffey Juniors and, and Jordans and Gretzky's as well. I think it is an extremely important, iconic card and I love pretty much everything about it. And you're gonna see a bunch of different things about them here today. Everybody. That's my opening comments. Any sort of. Just opening comments before we show them. First, we're going to start by showing Joe's evolution of Jackie's. But anything you want to set the table with Joe, Just your thoughts on the card overall, it's importance. David, how about you? I just think it's, it's, it's really one of the most important cards in the hobby. When you say it's like in the top five, I always get mad at Jeremy because I really believe it's number three behind the T206, Wagner and the Mantle. And I think that if you want to try to argue that it's. It's not next, I would love to hear that argument because it is extremely important. Call and he'll fight you on it. Joe. So I thought you were shaking your head, but do you have anything to. Just that I find it an incredibly compelling card and leaf set in general. Just all of them are many works of art, you know, with the, the variations in the, the, the print quality and the color. It's. David knows more about this than I do, but it's, it's an incredibly deep set. And, and the fact that Jackie's, you know, understood rookie card is in that set makes it all the better. And I always, I always think of Andy Warhol for some reason. Right. Okay, so let's go. What we're going to do is we're going to show Joel. So we're going to show Joe's old copy and then his new copy. He recently acquired a new copy. Then we're going to show David's old copy and his new copy. Then we're going to show my one and only ever copy and then all three of them together. This is the Jackie off. Here we go. Here is Joe's old copy. Get ready for this, guys. Talk about placeholders, talk about own appeal. I present you with Joe's old copy front and back. Look at that. Beautifully well loved SGC One holdered 48 Leaf Jackie Robinson. Joe, you've got 60 seconds. Tell us the story behind this card. I probably got this from Chris Sewell back in the late 2000s for when he was selling on ebay. You can see there's also pencil marks kind of around Jackie's face. There are a few attributes to the card. You know, the color and the kind of contrast that I appreciated the clarity, but over time I just. Oh, you know, even, even that scar by his cheekbone just, I just left it. Just couldn't, couldn't quite hold on to it. As much of a hoarder as I am. So yeah, that's my two cents on that. And for those listening, this card, it's a, it's actually a beautiful front. Outside of some paper loss by his eye, it's off centered. But the yellows, the blues, the blacks, the skin tones are beautiful. And the reverse is a disaster. It's got all sorts of paper loss and discoloration. Joe, you want to add something quick, Just one quick asterisk. This was in an old SGC holder until maybe a year ago when I realized I would be moving off of it. I thought it would probably sell better in a, in a newer SGC tux. Got it. Okay. And here he is. Distortion is killer on that card. I mean, look at his hat. That's what I always look at. And look at the depth in that hat. Still beautiful. Like there are positive aspects of it. Like this card. It's a beater. It is a beater copy, but it has beautiful elements to it. Now here is Joe's new copy, everybody. Here we go. Boom. A 1948 Leaf. Jackie. This is in a PSA2 holder. But Joe, this thing is a blazer. I mean, there is no paper loss. It is off center to the left. The back is super clean. It came with Fanatics collect top 30 eye appeal, I believe, after you purchased it. Joe, tell us one minute on this copy. Well, I. I liquidated quite a few cards, including the jacket that we just saw down at the west coast card show. And my goal was to pick up one on the showroom floor. But just, you know, as you know, those cards are hard. Like, you can have an entire showroom floor. You can have 5, 10, 15 of them out there, but if you don't see the right one. So I waited, I brought my cash home, and then this popped up on fanatics. And I had done enough research to sort of feel confident that this could very well be the card for me. My forever 48 leaf Jackie. And so it was beautiful. Now here they are beside each other. Joe's old copy, his new copy. Just congratulations on adding a lifelong hold copy permanent to the collection. For you, Joe, well done. Okay, let's go to David. Now, David, here is your. And here is David's old copy. It is an. In an SGC 1.5 holder. Beautifully centered, lots of sort of surface fading, I would say. David, 60 seconds. Your thoughts? Yeah, I. When I saved money to buy this card, I was ready for it. I went to big shows and it took me like two years to be able to finally find a centered copy that was in low grade. I was on the hunt and it was super annoying when I was ready and just couldn't find the copy I wanted. Found this one because it was centered. And I actually really, really like this copy. When it's a little farther away from you, you can't see the issues as when it has a nice scan or when it's closer and it's a. It looks great when it's farther away. But anytime I looked at it and I. I would look at Jackie's face, I would just think in my mind, I love you, Jackie, but you deserve better. And I just felt like I needed to improve upon him because it's such an important card to me. All right, this. Now here we go. And we're going to bring up the. The. The new one beside it. There it is. We've now added to the screen David's new 48 Leaf. Jackie, this is in an SGC3 holder. There's an NBA silver sticker on there. And right away, David, I can see how much of an improvement. Look at the bottom third of the card. Specifically Never mind just the overall clarity of Jackie, the color, but that bottom third, the name bar, the corners, the lack of. I love it. Tell us a bit about the new copy and make it quick, buddy. All right. I love it. I like. I love it. I don't love it. When I look at these two cards next to each other. I don't like how the yellow is kind of blending into the outside of the card. It is very toned. But I do love the card. And actually this weekend I ended up getting that sticker on it when I was at the front row card show, just because in case something smacks me in the face. Because I love that PSA1 Jackie, that I lost out on, which brought me on to sportscards Live for the first time, which just had crazy, crazy color. When I look at Joe's and Jeremy's, I do get a little jealous of their color. But I do love this card and I do like that it's worn. It looks like it was, you know, it's a vintage card and I do like my copy a lot, but it might not be my forever copy. It might be a placeholder. Who knows? It's a beaut. It's beautiful, man. Congratulations on the upgrade. Congratulations to both of you on the upgrades. All right, we'll go to my copy now. I'm gonna put on the screen. And here we go. There it is. This is a. This is my 1948 Leaf Jackie Robinson. It's in a PSA6 holder. I've owned this card since I. I'm pretty certain it was 2013, so 13 years now. And I love it. It's. It is severely off centered to the left, but I think that's pretty much the only thing that's really wrong with it. I love the color, I love the registration, the corners, the edges, the back is clean. I don't have a scan of that to show right now. But, you know, I traded for this card back in the day and it held the position as my favorite card in my collection for, you know, 10 of those 12 years. The card that, that superseded it was the 33 Gowdy Babe Ruth number 144, the standing pose. When I acquired that In August of 2024, I believe it was, that became my favorite card. And to this day it jostles for position with the Jackie and now my cracker Jack, Joe Jackson. So I love this card. I love the Jackie. I thought about improving on it when that PSA one appeared that David reached out to me about, but I thought, nah, I'm I'll just keep this. This is a card that was, you know, I could have considered a placeholder, but I've just grown to love it so much. I have a lot of emotional value tied into this card, more than anyone else would have. So I just love it. And now, finally, all three of our Jackies beside each other, the grand finale of the very first ever Jackie off. And there we have them. Joe, David's and my copy. And listen, they are. Look at how the difference. Look at how amazing they look next to each other. The yellow, how each of the yellows are so different. And his hat is so different. And the color of his face. Right? That's why they love leaf. Unbelievable. It's unbelievable. And they're all beautiful. I find beauty in all of them. I would be happy owning any of these three in my collection. Even, you know, even Joe's copy, which is the lowest numerical grade, that's a. That's a. Like, it's not that much different than mine. You like, as far as the centering and the shape of the card goes, they're very similar. Color is a lot different. But that's a case where, you know, I could sell my six, get into his two, and have a bunch of money left over to buy other cards that, you know, like, that wouldn't be the worst move in history. For. From my perspective, a lot of people might think it might be not great, but isn't that a. Isn't that a wicked image? Guys, David is. David's mystified. David, you know, I love this. I mean, looking at leaf cards next to each other is like my greatest hobby in the world. But Jeremy, that's a sick. I mean, that is a. That's a big boy card right there that you have. And I know nowadays you don't go for PSA sixes with your crazy vintage stuff, right? I can't afford the many. I could not afford this card. A card. My card in that same grade just sold for, like, double. And it was the. It looked the exact same. Actually. Mine's a bit better. Mine has no tilt. The one that just sold, well, mine might have a bit of tilt, but the one that just sold has, like, noticeable tilt, so. And that sold for double than it used. Like. Yeah, I can't afford my card anymore, so. No, I don't buy cards like this in this high grade. To me, a six and a Jackie Leaf is a high grade card. No, I don't buy those anymore. Joe, you were. You were going to jump in there. Oh, I Mean, just unless you're Marshall Fogel, like, you're gonna have to settle somewhere. I think we've, you know, discussed this in other, other moments and so, like, this is a nice case study of like, where, where you might be willing to settle. Like, I don't feel great about the centering on my card, but I feel great about the color mine. If you can't see it on the top left corner, there is a tiny bit of paper loss, but it's, it's in the area that's white, so it's almost, it's difficult to see best place for it. Best. I love it. I love that. But as David, as a connoisseur of the leaf knows, it's like all these leafs are so idiosyncratic and, and there's, there's even types within the individual cards and, and so you really have to kind of, you know, trust your own innate tastes and, you know, make the decision knowing that like, short of, you know, a seven figure number, you're, you're, you're going to have to settle somewhere. And just for clarity. Yeah, agreed, Joe. I mean, this is where people can be watching this, looking at these three cards and thinking, which one would I most like to have at what price point? As well, I love the little bit of paper loss on the card. To me, that's a money saver. When it's up in that it, you know, obviously technical grade, it hurts. But I appeal, which I think is the more important of the condition standards for me anyway, it is. And I think a lot of people nowadays, that's a great way to just get into a card for lesser money. The other thing is that I don't, I know that the, my card, I don't believe any of these images are juice. There's no there, there's been no alteration to the saturation, the contrast, any of those things. These are natural scans. So that just also goes to show how different these cards were right out of the packs over time as they, you know, hey, we ran out of, go get some new yellow. All right. They go to the store, they get a yellow. It's not the same yellow. That's okay. Print the cards. Let's ship them off. You know, that's the way. That's the way it went, guys. Well, there we have it. The very first ever in the history of sports card content. The Jackie off is now complete. Thank you everybody for checking that out. Now we are good to basically wrap this up, you guys. I want to thank you both for joining to the people watching, listening, let us know about the Jackies. Which one do you like the most? Which one do you think is the mo. Do you see the most value? And I don't think it's going to be mine. You know, Joe, you said that you're, you know, you don't love the centering on yours. You obviously don't love the centering on mine too, because it's the same centering. That is a. Okay, I feel the same way. I don't love it. But I've grown to love the card. It is mine. I don't think I'm ever gonna upgrade it or upgrade by downgrading. None of that. But guys, final 15 second comments. Joe, and your first appearance on the Hangover, just final, final closing thoughts. Super fun to be on with you guys. Thanks to the Clubhouse Nation for including us and yeah, great show, Jaylee. Look forward to more. Absolutely. David Chase, love the show, love Jeremy, love Joe. And I'm just happy to be with both of you on anything and I appreciate you both being my friends. Guys, same him. The feelings are mutual. Thank you to the team at the sports card Clubhouse. Adam, Greg and Mike. And check this out. This is exclusive sports card live content on the sports card clubhouse. This is the Hangover. This was episode two. Thank you, everybody. This is over.