Will Live-Selling And Breakers Dominate The Future Hobby Landscape?; PSA Backlog Tracker Is Live; Another Fun Round Of Quiz Show!

You're listening to Cards to the Moon, a podcast about trading cards from both a collector and investor perspective. We hope you'll stick around for the ride as we take a deep dive into the state of the hobby. Share some hot takes, hopefully some useful advice and fun stories along the way. Hey guys, welcome back to Cards to the Moon. This is episode 374. My name is Clark from 5Card Guys.com. you can also find me at 5Card Guys all spelled out all one word on Instagram, Facebook, YouTube and TikTok.co hosting with me is Hyung who is O Hyang and you can also find him on IG and YouTube as well. All right, off the top, I think this is the right step by PSA in the name of transparency and that is that they provided a tracker online in regards to their card backlog. And we talked about this last week and since that time it turns out the 12.5 million card backlog number was incorrect as the number of submissions leading up to the self imposed deadline turned out to be more than 15 million. All right, so we underestimated and as of this recording, if you look on their tracker online, they're currently sitting at 14 million, with plans to reopen the value tier once they get that backlog number to under 5 million. So I'll include the link to the tracker in the show notes. But Hyung, on their backlog page, what I found more interesting than the actual tracker itself is that PSA cited some numbers and I want to get your general thoughts on where we are as a hobby and again, ask what you think of the hobby long term. All right, so let me read the quote for you first. It says on their website, quote, According to Third Party Research, more than 9 million active card collectors have joined the community since 2023, bringing the total to approximately 30 million collectors just in the United States. There are also more cards to collect than ever before. In 2025 alone, the Pokemon Company printed 10 billion cards. More collectors and more cards led to an unprecedented number of submissions, end quote. Now, of course this is PSA trying to cover their butts, but what I rather discuss is this unprecedented growth in the hobby. And you know, we've talked about this on the pod before, we're generally bullish on the hobby. But is there any concern at all from you, Hyung, that. That this could be a bubble because of just the tremendous growth that we've seen just in the past year alone? Of course, that's kind of like everybody's concern. They compare it to, you know, oh, they're printing too much. But the main difference between the junk wax like era and now is our form of communication. And that totally changes how we used to do things and why something like that wouldn't sustain without the technology we have today. Right? So, for instance, perfect example is back in the junk wax era, you really couldn't liquidate a card unless somebody ripped you off in the neighborhood for whatever reason. You know what I mean? You make your trades or whatever, but you don't really know value. You don't really know what a good deal is unless you're attending these local card shows, whatever, once a month or twice a month, whatever they were, right? So you fast forward to now and you look at the way the hobby has developed and evolved is totally different because you're using, you know, different tools in society that allows you to, you know, liquidate, allows you to make trades within minutes, within seconds. And this is what we're talking about. You can't compare the two where it's just a bubble. Now, with that said, is there a lot of inflated numbers and values associated with a lot of these cards? Absolutely. A lot of these sales are unrealistic. But it goes back to any fundamental principle of investment, whether it's in real estate, whether it's in a business, you know, whatever it is, whether it's art, you know, there has to be certain fundamentals that follow. And, you know, I was talking to a buddy of mine about this. You know, there's. And it goes both ways. There's a lot of inflated, overvalued cards. But I still believe in a growing marketplace, like what we're seeing, there's a lot of undervalued cards, even though they are record sales. Right? So we're in a weird area of growth where you can't necessarily just say, oh, you know, we're in a bubble without context, because, yes, it trends. And it seems as though, you know, a lot of these things can't sustain with which is true. Like there's there. That's not false. But I believe as a whole, there's enough foundation now, enough technology, enough communication tools to, you know, grow this hobby. You know, that's what we're seeing, and you know it. And it's always weird because when you're in a growth, an industry growth stage, we act like we've been, you know, in many industry growths, but like, the hobby in particular is different because we've seen it evolve from, you know, pre Covid to where it was a hobby to kind of like a Massive marketplace where, you know, the rules have changed immensely and we don't know what they are yet. So we're in this weird stage of kind of like anything goes. PSA is pushing their limits of what, you know, what, what they can do in the hobby. So, yeah, interest. It's very interesting stage. Yeah, no, I'm glad you brought up a lot of those points. And it just is too simplistic to say it's another bubble. And to your point, if you zoom in on the time before COVID and then we see the Eiffel Tower growth and then coming back down, obviously crazy times during COVID But if you zoom out and even now to where we are, 20, 26, the Eiffel Tower chart doesn't look that big because we've seen some cards just exceed those values even then. And people could argue like, oh, now we're in another highly inflated period. But, and it will come down, there will definitely be some kind of regression, but the general trend is that the floor is higher and higher. And so I think over time, in 10, 20, 30, 50 years, when you zoom out even more, you're going to just see the steady kind of upward trajectory. And you got to remember too, you know, our dollar is tanking as well. So if you see it over year after year, in terms of what our dollar's worth, obviously inflation is crazy. So you're seeing a combination of a massive, massive hobby. And essentially what our data is, is trading against the dollar. Right. Because when people cash out, we see sales, it's against the dollar. But over a long period of time, the dollar is tanking. So of course you're going to see an upward trend in general. Right. In a long term. Plus you take it in the, you know, the enhancement of, you know, the growth of the actual growth of the hobby. Right. So, yeah, like I said, trading against the dollar, of course, people are putting it into Ohtani slab rather than holding that, you know, $50,000 cash because, you know, they understand that the market is hot. So more people are willing to do that. And that's what, you know, creates the economic activity that, that surrounds our hobby. I'll go as far as saying people are taking some money out of crypto, like we've seen crypto kind of start to decline and they're putting into alternative assets like trading cards, like other collectibles. So maybe there's some correlation there, but. But yeah, 100%. But that, that it goes back from market to market, then it, the crypto that doesn't have fundamental. Gets Exposed first. Right. So that's where you see, you know, the ebbs and flows. But obviously, you know, if there's good crypto that you truly believe in, you know, it might not be, you know, smart to do that. But like I said, everybody, there's so much. There's so much from A to Z, good and bad that. And same with cards. There's a lot of good and bad within cards. It's like some actually don't have value, and some actually do have value. It's a matter of, you know, being able to identify that. One, are you aware that that's a thing? And two, you know, your actions actually, you know, proceed with that thought, you know, pattern. Yeah. And I'll say this one more thing. What I like and why I'm so bullish on the hobby is that we just don't have flippers, like during the. During past bubbles, historic bubbles, where people are just trading, like, left, right and center. But we also have, like, an industry growing where we're actually seeing corporations and companies building things, you know, PSAs, like. Like them or not, they're trying to improve their processes and systems. Right. Fanatics, like them or not, they're always trying to innovate and create more on top of what we have already in the hobby. So that's. That's bullish signals for me that there's actually industry being created and being built on. And that the fact that we're able to talk about all these things week after week on a podcast, even content creators, like, there's so much to talk about. And because there's so many things going on in the hobby right now, 100%. And that's so true because we don't know what's in play next week. And that could totally change the direction of one. Even people, their habits and collecting. Right. We don't understand you look at, you know, a place. I bring Arena Club up so much just because I had a great experience with Arena Club. They totally change the way you rip. But, you know, before that, you didn't have, you know, new experiences or new. Whatever it is that pertains to the hobby, and that's what you're seeing in influx right now, is there's so much opportunity that things change on a daily basis. And why we're able to even, you know, talk about it, because, you know, like I said, within a growth marketplace where it's a massive, massive shift, we're talking a new era of, you know, collectible. I don't even know what to call it. Anymore. That's why I don't even want to call it a hobby because it's really not a hobby. It's. It's the collectible and tradable space, you know, that people value as art almost. Right? So, yeah, new, new industry, there's, there's really no boundaries right now. And the only limitation is what your own personal mind can handle. Right. So, and that's why we always say it's like, if you see the hobby that way, that's exactly what you'll get out of the hobby. Right? So it's, it's important to kind of, you know, be open minded to things and kind of say, you know, what I used to do, and even the old school heads, it's like, yeah, I used to do it this way or this is the way it used to be. But that doesn't mean that it's the, it's gonna work in the same, you know, world we live in today. So it's kind of being open minded to, you know, seeing the potential of what actually is out there and kind of going with the flow almost. You can't really, even from a business standpoint, we talked about, if we had committed to, let's just say, a business venture a year or two years ago, that might not even be in play today. Right. Because, you know, so much has evolved and you know, and I think that's so important to really understand and aware that this is a real thing in, in our hobby, in our marketplace. It's not some fictional thing. It's like that's the basis of what our business or what this whole marketplace is, is predicated on. Yeah, well said. And I think it's perfectly encapsulated by the title of our podcast, Carts to the Moon. We just on this rocket ship and we're just enjoying the ride, right? Yeah, you enjoy the ride. You'll have a good time. And it's funny, Clark, because you realize that the Cards to the Moon actually means more now than when you originally created the title for it. It means more because it actually, you know, you actually see the result through that, right? Where it's like, whoa, we didn't realize that, like it's going to be like that. Well, we kind of knew, but we're living it. Right. So it's kind of interesting viewpoint to see it from, from that standpoint. Absolutely. And actually that's a great segue to our next segment. We'll move on to hobby headlines. And, you know, like I said, this breaking is what we're going to Talk about more or less, but that's a whole industry in itself, like a sub niche within the industry that's just blowing up. And it's too bad John couldn't make it today because we all know he feels a particular way about Breakers. So it would have been great to get his input on our topic today. But I'm basing a lot of the discussion points from an article in the Athletic, which was published recently, and it was titled $100 million revenues for sports Card Sellers Inside the Race to Own the Live Selling Market. And so, as we've done in the past, I'll go through some of the key quotes and the notes from the article and we can discuss our thoughts on them. All right, but the general gist of the article is that the growth in revenue generated from. From these live selling platforms, such as WhatNot Fanatics Live and now eBay Live, they continue to grow quickly. And so the question really is whether this will become the predominant way in which collectors will begin to buy and sell their cards. But let's start with the numbers first. The article says, quote, social commerce in the United States grew an estimated 21.5% year over year to more than $87 billion in 2025, according to research firm eMarketer. And trading cards and other collectibles comprise a significant piece of that total. And then later in the article, it estimates it will cross the $100 billion threshold in 2026. So are you surprised at these gigantic numbers? You know, surprised but not surprised? Sure I do. It's kind of, like, surreal that it's happening, but that's how big the marketplace is. And it goes back to when we discuss, you know, why would eBay get involved? Why would PSA get involved? They're not getting involved to make mom and pop revenue. You know what I mean? They're getting involved because they actually see the opportunity and they take it there. And that's what bigger companies that have leverage, they're able to do really easily if they, you know, own, you know, a particular market or a particular niche within the marketplace. Right? So that's what, you know, these guys are doing. And I'm not surprised because, like I said, they're in it, want to make money. Let's be real. And we have to understand that this whole, you know, this whole thing runs on, you know, value and money. And, you know, the reason why the big dogs or the pillars who move this whole business space is doing it right. And they're there to make money, but they're also there to solve problems and make the space better. And that's the framework that these big companies look at it as, because that's the only way to create, one, sustainable revenue. And, and two, be able to control the narrative of how the marketplace should or wherever go. Right. So I'm not surprised. But, yeah, like by any of this. And, you know, and then it trickles down. Then the people that, you know, buy into that, they see the vision, they're going to carry out their business strategy. So if you're a breaker, you're going to piggyback on that, because if that industry grows, that means your business is growing. Right. So. And like I said, within that context, there's great people and there's bad people. Right. You can't control whether there's great people or bad people, but that's what you get. And with, with that type of money, you see the horror stories that come with it. And I think that's the way people frame it. They see the bad experiences. So don't necessarily judge the system at scale. Judge the people that take advantage of that and obviously with that becomes an improvement. Because when you create something like that, then it's like, okay, what went wrong and what didn't. What went well? And then it's like, okay, how do we avoid the what went wrong? Right. And that's the evolution of that growth. Yeah. And like, like, you're saying that's all part of the growth process. Right. And I agree with you. It's, you know, when you say that these larger corporations, they see literally billions of dollars that they can make, and that's why they're jumping in very eagerly, and that's just kind of how the world goes right now. But, yeah, you know, I wanted to touch upon the point you just mentioned about taking the good with the bad and the bad with the good, and we got to kind of navigate the situation together while, while we're kind of experiencing this altogether, this tremendous growth altogether. And, and I saved this question for later, but I think it's good to address it now, in which the article, it says in the collectible space. We know that whatnot is the leader now, but they're of course, not without controversy like you were kind of alluding to. They have shady breakers out there. You had the whole backyard breaks incident, which the article actually calls out. They write about Grant Telford, who was temporarily suspended for saying an inappropriate remark about a minor. But here's a statement from whatnot about what they're doing to improve the safety of the platform. And they said, quote, as the platform has expanded, so has our enforcement. Today, one in three employees focuses on buyer and seller trust. Our scale works in our favor. More buyers generate more reviews, reports, and detection signals we use to improve our systems. We proactively ban tens of thousands of accounts every week. And the average seller rating on whatnot is 4.91 out of five, even as the seller base has grown, end quote. So kind of coming back to how do we navigate this together? The question is, you know, if whatnot continues to grow as quickly as they have, do you expect to hear more controversies with more shady dealers and breakers out there, or do you think as an industry they're able to clamp down even as they grow rapidly? Like, what side do you stand on? I think both can happen simultaneously. Because what happens is as whatnot grows that industry, because they see the opportunity, they're not going to be the only ones that are going to be wanting to create the next best platform. Because like I said, if it's a growing industry, another person is going to come and say, you know, what, what's what? Not doing that, you know, or what, what aren't they doing that we should be doing, you know, and what do we believe in? And then there's. There might be technology in play. A company might stumble into a technology that can, you know, push whatnot in a certain direction. Or, you know, as. As the industry grows, a lot of people are going to coexist, a lot of people are going to chase, and it comes down to value. Again, it's any company, they don't. And this is what I think our general perception is. It's so black and white. It's like one bad incident happens. The whole whatnot is a fraud. It's like there has to be a business model and sustainability model for it to exist year after year, right? So they're not going to jeopardize and rig a system, for instance, or do something, you know, stupid that would jeopardize that long term. There's so many stakeholders involved that it wouldn't happen. So it's like, that's what people don't understand. It's not as black and white as you think. So I think that a lot of, as whatnot grows, the marketplace grows, the whole space grows, new players evolve, new technology evolves, and that's the cycle that we're going to see. And you know what? Not. I'm glad that they're proactive in doing this because like I said, there's going to be good and Bad. You get all the info as intel, don't judge whether it's good or bad, and you create the next steps accordingly so that you create more value within that community. And it's, it's that loop, that cycle that, you know, these companies, that's how they view it as. Because they want to be around next year, they want to be around the year after they see the Marketplace growing to 500 million or a billion or whatever you know, market value breaking gets to. Yeah. You know, I like to point out that we are not sponsored by whatnot. So this is, I've never used whatnot before. There you go. I've used it a couple times and it's definitely, I see the appeal of it. You know, it's like a lot of comparison with what, what's happening on these live selling platforms to, you know, you and I are old enough to know those home shopping networks, late night TV where you could just see those infomercials and pick up the phone call, you know, live, and then you get it shipped out to you. Comes out, comes like a couple weeks or a month later. Shipping times were different back then. Yeah, those infomercials and, and but now because with technology available that's, that's. Everything is lightning fast. Everything happens. I've seen 10 second auctions, you know what I mean? It's like, all right, go. I'm like, oh, should I bid on this? And then they ship it out to you the next day and you get it within a week. Like things are moving so quickly. And I see the appeal of it because of the speed of the excitement. And we're going to touch on that point later in terms of like who is on whatnot, who are on these live selling platforms and who are successful in it. But it does go hand in hand with what we are used to seeing. Back in the 80s 90s with the hosts were a huge deal of these live home shopping networks. Right. It's an involvement of that. Really? Right. Yes. Yeah, no, absolutely, absolutely. And I think a lot of people are seeing that. But I do want to point out that I know there's going to be some who listen out there and, and when you said that whatnot's being proactive, people are gonna push back on that saying, well, they're doing this because they got caught with some shady dealers and they don't want. But I mean it was inevitable. I think our point is that was inevitable. When you're growing this quickly, you're gonna have bad apples in there trying to take advantage of a system that's early and, you know, there are not the proper enforcements in place, but it looks like they're doing that now and again, not sponsored by whatnot. Yeah. And that's. The accountability, I think, is fair from a user perspective is as long as they are addressing the issues as they come up. Because, like I said, you can't address every issue before you launch your platform. And then you're trying to cater to every single thing that happens. You don't know what's going to happen. And that's up to us as individuals to, hey, like I said, there's people, there's good people out there, there's bad people out there. You're never gonna really change that, and you can't. And of course, there's people that, you know, and that's a whole can of worms. We used to have, you know, online police. The police dogs. Right. That were corrupt in the first place. Like, I forgot. What, Remember card porn? Yeah, card porn. Like, stuff like that. It's like, then people start trusting, you know, independent companies like that that have. You don't know what their agenda is. Right. So that's why there's a lot of stuff that needs to happen to the hobby. For sure. We are addressing them, I think, as it goes and as it evolves. And yeah, you're. You're absolutely right in terms of, you know, I know people might seem like, you know, I'm supporting whatnot. It's like, to be honest, I'm not a customer. I've never used their platform. I don't even have an account. I'll. I'll talk highly about Arena Club. I use Arena Club. You know that I've had great experiences. Right. But, yeah, you know, I'm gonna reach out to Arena Club. They should be sponsoring. Yeah. Podcast by now. Yeah. Yes, yes. Give us a few. Few packs to rip. That's. We'll take that deal. But. But no, I agree with you also on, you know, Boston Card Hunter. He always seems to be calling out different whatnot, shady breakers out there. And I don't mind that either, because I think as we grow, we need to point who out who. Who are the bad apples out there. And I think hopefully, as this industry grows, there'll be fewer and fewer of those around because the system is working better. But, yeah, I think at the end of the day, this is. It's here to stay, mainly because the money is there. You know, if it wasn't making any money, guess what? None of these platforms would exist. It wouldn't be worth their while, for sure. And a good point to make, too is, you know, in general, I would say 98%, 99% of my dealings within the hobby have been with amazing people. And you know what I mean, I've. And yes, we're going to stumble into that one, 1 or 2%, but really it's the people that make the hobby community safe and, you know, people that stand up. So like you said, people who, who want to keep the others accountable, by all means, if that's your thing, you know, do that in the. Within the hobby. You know, I just, for me Personally, I have 24 hours within the day. There's no way I'm here to argue with other people's choices. Bad choices are good choices. It's like, I only have 24 hours in the day. I'm going to enjoy the hobby the way I want to enjoy it and not necessarily focus my attention on the bad apples. But like I said, that's what makes our hobby great. There's so much you can do and get yourself involved with, whether it's content creation, whether it's being a watchdog, whether it's, you know, buying and selling, whether it's, you know, creating a, you know, a podcast, whatever it may be. You know, there's so much that you can do that shouldn't, you know, stop you from enjoying it for what it is. Yeah, yeah. And just to add before I go to the next point, what I love about the hobby community is that kind of, in a good way, too, that we are able to police one another. You know, if there's something bad going on, it's hard to hide from it because there'll be people that just call you out like crazy. Like you were saying back in the days when, you know, the Wild west, when we were shipping things through ebay without any kind of authenticity guarantee. Remember those days, you're like, okay, I hope it gets there. But if it doesn't, guess what? That user that trying to rip off someone, it's gonna get shouted like it's. They're going to be all over the web, you know, all over the socials, and then no one's going to want to do a deal with them. And it's just the hobby, it consists of people who are passionate about card collecting. And that's what makes it more safe, in my opinion, than other industries in a lot of ways. All right, you kind of alluded to this earlier, but they also interviewed Jeff Wilson, AKA Sports card investor, for the article. He had you Know Cards hq, they have a live breaking business and they're expecting to hit 30 million in sales this year just from the breaking side of the business. And that's double what they made in 2025, which is about 15 million. So obviously another case in point in breaking is a big money business. But he says, quote, when customers come into streams, it's very much a talent and personality driven business. When you see these companies that have hundreds of people in their streams and they're doing really big sales, they built that up by creating connections with their audience and putting their talent first, end quote. So do you agree? Disagree? And if you agree, is this kind of like high school again? You know, where the popular kids always seem to win? No, I completely agree. And when we extrapolate this point, it's the conversations we've had in the past of how local card stores could do things differently that create revenue streams. And this is exactly what we are talking about. Jeff Wilson hit on the nail. It's like they're doing things. So think if he's pushing $30 million in breaks, whatever the margin is, let's just say it's 10%, you know, net net profit margin. That $3 million didn't exist, you know, before the Internet. So this is what we're talking about. And he's right. Then if you're making 3 million, let's just say on profit, do you think Jeff's the only guy that's doing breaks? He's gonna invest in whoever is that character, that talent, you know, because he's enjoying it, because he's talented at doing it. But Jeff doesn't have to be the guy. Right? So to me it's, it's, it's a no brainer. And these are what makes, and like I said, it goes back to the conversation, do physical locations still can, they still exist. And this is what my point. Absolutely. Because no longer are hobby shops just a place to buy cards. It becomes a hobby experience from a digital and physical way. So the experience is the most important thing. And that's where we're evolving. Not only in the hobby. I see this in multiple businesses. Whether you're, you know, Nespresso, you know, your marketing and branding is more than just, you know, going to Walmart and being able to purchase coffee pods. It's, you know, it's the brand, it's the experience. You see it in Aritzia, the girls store, whatever they, they're creating coffee shops. Yes. You know what I mean? And, and then you mix that in with the digital infrastructure that we have, the social media, the content creation influencers. It's a totally different business model than what we're doing. So when Jeff is talking about this in particular, it's exactly what we were referring to when we discussed what hobby shops could do differently. Yeah. And personality, like, whether you like it or not. And I was kind of half joking about it being a popularity contest, but with the, you know, with social media and with influencers rising, there's so many options and choices for you to go to where you want to go. You know, a lot of people, even in content creation space. Right. A lot of people listen to our podcast because they just like how we vibe and how we talk about cards and others, like sports card nonsense with Mike and Jesse, they like their vibe together. So it's the same thing with breakers. There's some breakers I just don't enjoy because maybe they're a little too loud, maybe I'm just too old, whatever it is. But there's others that is just more calm and. And that's my style. But guess what? I like going to them because I can, A, maybe better relate to them, B, I trust them because they seem to be doing it more consistently. And so there's a lot of different personalities out there. And, you know, I think you kind of mentioned this, and the article mentions this before, too, from a seller who quotes. Who was quoted saying, you know, when the bad things happen, they all get grouped into the same. Like, you know, they're like, all breakers are bad. All breakers are like this. But if you look closely, if you look. If you dive deeper, you see that there's a lot of diversity within even the breaking industry. Clark. I will say there's no way One store does $30 million in sales with bad people running it. Like, seriously, like, how. How does that happen? How does that exist? How does that grow from year after year? How? Yeah, right. It's like people are accountable for people. So if they were that bad in the first place, then people shouldn't be purchasing from them. And it would eventually, you know, end up that way. Right. But you can't say that it's all bad. And then you look at the data, you look at the numbers. Well, how is this growth happening then if it's all bad? Right. And I know Jeff Wilson is a great point because I know there's a lot of Jeff Wilson haters, or they just don't like his style. And maybe there's. There are people out there who don't like him that are just flabbergasted at these million dollar sales. Like, how can someone like that make that much money? Guess what the reality is there are a lot of people that do like Jeff Wilson and that's why he's making 3 million in profit, whether it is the 10% margin, 30 million in sales total, because there are people that do trust him, that do like him. And you know, as often as the case, people who have negative things to say or are more critical usually have louder voices, usually get amplified. But there's a lot of people out there that are just quiet and you know, they do their thing. Like you're saying, everyone has this breaking news, guys. Everyone has 24 hours in a day. There's no one that has more or less than that. And choose wisely. Yeah, you choose wisely on how you want to spend that time. All right, I got a couple more points. And again, you alluded to this earlier. With the growth of this industry, in particular, the braking side of things, they're going to have competitors, right? When you, when different companies can see that they can make money, you're going to have competitors. So the article mentions Filth Bomb Breaks and they said they're one of the largest breakers on Fanatics Live. All right. But they also recently joined ebay Live and the article says, quote, in addition to Filth Bomb, ebay has also recently added popular sellers including Blez Sports Cards, we the Hobby and sportscard Nonsense to its Live platform in different non exclusive capacities as it attempts to catch up to whatnot and Fanatics Live in the space. End quote. Now, I know some of these platforms offer different kinds of perks for your business to stay on their platform, but this is a more of a business or strategy type question for you, Hyung. Let's say we at five Car Guys and Cards to the Moon wanted to start our own breaking business. Do you think it's better to go all in on one platform and try to maximize the perks? You know, maybe through some kind of exclusive contract or go multi platform like the companies I just mentioned in Mama Breaks as well. She's multi platform and stream on whatnot. Fanatics Live and ebay Live. What do you think would be your play? That's a good question. You know what, like I have never thought about, you know, streaming or breaking, but the money's there. I mean, the money's there, but like I said, you only have 24 hours in a day. Choose wisely. I would say particular in our case because you established you built the brand pretty well. I would leverage that and do a really good deal with one and get the best benefits and then go all out on marketing and create like a funnel, right? To be able to reap the benefits on the large platform, like whether it's ebay, live or whatever, negotiate a deal where it might benefit five card guys better. Whereas if you went on multiple platforms, you might just be getting kind of like the basic tier commissions or whatever it is. Right? So I think. And that's why the ecosystem is so interesting, because it now becomes work in the digital space and the infinite scaling possibility in the digital world becomes your bread and butter. And that's all you focus on. Because if you create that structure of, let's just say you're converting a certain percentage and this is why data matters. Let's just say you're converting number of views with actual customers that join your breaking platform, it becomes a matter of, okay, if 100,000 views on my videos are getting me, let's just say whatever it is, 2%, 1%, you start thinking, you know, okay, I need to create more content that would funnel people into this stream. Right. So that. And that's all it is. And that's what Jeff Wilson's doing. That's what all these guys are doing, is using the media side. So I would do the exact same thing and leverage the number one asset that one five card guys has is, you know, the audience in terms of, you know, being able to sell them something. Right. That's the way I would approach it. Not the multi stream. That's interesting. And I love this question too, because there's really no right answer. But it's about like our going with our gut. Because I would have gone. Yeah, I would have gone the other way, you know, because I think it's still really early in the process in terms of who's gonna win and not even who's gonna win. And that's gonna kind of segue into the next question, but what will the future of breaking look like? Will it be one or two predominant players or will it be five or six? And we're beginning to see a fragmentation of the, the industry in this, in this particular area already, which I'll get to. But in that sense, I don't know if I want to put all my apples into one basket. We're using apples a lot as a, as a metaphor or analogy. But, you know, I mean, like to spread it out and, and I, But I also see the argument where if we're a smaller brand, especially compared to the ones I mentioned, maybe it is more efficient to just focus on one and try to extract as much perks as possible. And I think that's the key for me. Depends on the perks. You know, if you're going to go exclusive or really all in on one, what can that platform do for us to kind of support us in the early stages? And I think that business model, the reason why it goes down to what are the perks, because that's going to be your advantage over everybody else, right? So to me, it's being able to negotiate that early on. But like, like I said, I know an ebay won't want to negotiate with a smaller brand, for instance, there's a lot you have to bring value. And that's where, you know, I look at it as I would go all out on content, I would generate millions and millions and millions of views, go to ebay and say, okay, this is what so and so is getting. I want 5% off that, I want 10% off that. I want, you know, whatever it is, you know, I would start negotiating that sense by leveraging the media. But yeah, you're, you're absolutely right. In terms of, you know, you could do it any way, really in terms of whether you do multiple platforms if you're smaller. I just like doing things like the big step because I find it's this analogy, Clark, it's like it's the same thing as cards. When we started, we all sold like $50 cards, hundred dollar cards. And then we realized, okay, it's a lot of work, so we start moving up in, in value because it's the same amount of work, but a percentage of the profit becomes more, you know, reasonable. And you know, that's why people do it on the 10,000, 100,000 level. Because now you're talking about, the scale becomes gigantic, right? And it requires the same amount of time. So when I, when I say these things, I'm taking the same context where it's like, man, if I'm building this from scratch, I want to jump all the way. But there's, you know, also other risks involved by going that way. And we all know on this pod, Hyung's the bigger risk taker out of all of us here. So it makes sense that you would want to do it that way. And then it makes sense I would more go the other way. So it depends on your personality too. Okay, last quote. It's about the future of what breaking might look like. And almost ironically, when we're talking about monopolies in the hobby, this might be One area where there is legit competition. So here's a quote from one seller or one breaker in the article. He or she says hobby products are moving on TikTok, especially if you include Pokemon. If you're implying that it's really just a fanatics live whatnot, ebay, live market. You add a TikTok shop soon and you add a fifth, well capitalized innovative competitor. Now you've got a real fragmented market coming. So with increased competition, do you think this is where we'll see the most innovation in the hobby? Will breaking online look a lot different in a decade from now just because of the, you know, that's what competition seems to do. If it's a legit competition, they really push each other to innovating. What do you think? Like what the future might look for? Sure. Breaking, I wouldn't say 10 years, I'd say one year. It's gonna look different. Right. Like there. And that's why it's, it's more, it's less about the brand that's actually carrying it out. It's about available technology. Like you said, TikTok's just a regular platform. But what is the asset of TikTok if people are using it to as a buying platform? Does it have the fundamentals to do it? It becomes a convenience thing. Well, how many, you know, Gen z users on TikTok? Right. And that's the data and is it growing? So it becomes more of a, you know, data and availability of technology rather than a specific brand saying, you know, we're, we're going to win on this because xyz, like I said, even those companies, if there's no Internet whatnot doesn't exist. So it's like they're using the same technology that exists to basically create value within that ecosystem. So it's the same, it's the exact same principle as that. So yeah, yeah. And I would add too like who's capturing, let's say that Gen Z demographic because that Gen Z demographic is more likely or more comfortable to purchase things through social media streams rather than you know, Gen X or something. I don't know, is it credit card protected? That's so true. Right, that's true. Because you would, you would purchase things off a website, a trusted website, you wouldn't purchase something off a stream for instance. Yes, but then we're not getting any younger. Right. So it's like the next generation you got to cater to. Right. So that's, that's perfect point. Yeah. And as the Gen Z and what the gen Alphas get older, it's a second nature to them. And the platforms that can cater to that demographic that all of a sudden have jobs now have disposable income like we do. It's kind of adapting and evolving with where the growing segment in the, in the hobby will be that have money to spend on cards essentially. So yeah, it'll be interesting to see how it plays out but that's something I don't think you can neglect And I think TikTok in that sense is well positioned to make a really big play. And you know, in a way I think Walmart Live, that's another platform that tried to be in the breaking business. I don't think they're doing that well that Walmart Live is almost catering to our age group. And it's like why would I go there if I, you know, if there's other. I'm just, I'm comfortable with ebay. I'm comfortable with just flipping singles the plain old way. It's funny now that this is the plain old way of doing things is buying and selling on ebay their regular platform, not on ebay Live. But how, how quickly things changed. Right. So that's, that's where, where we are. But yes, read the article, I'll include the note, I'll include the link of that article in the show notes below for you to just do a more in depth dive if you want to. Okay, let's move on to our next segment. It's called Quiz Show. All right, just, it's a pop quiz today. So just three questions, really quick and simple and the first one, it's got to be about Ohtani. The 2018 tops Chrome Sapphire Red Rookie Auto. Okay, number to 10 graded PSA 10 of Ohtani sold for 60,000 in November 2021. Okay, so five years ago, 60K. You already know it's a great deal, right? Because it sold again recently this month. For how much? And I'll give you a multiple choice. Around 100k, 250k, 500k or 1 million. Wow. I think it's not a 1 million dollar card yet. Yet. Okay. I don't think, I think hundreds way too cheap. 250. You said 250 or 500. Okay. I would say true value is 250. Somebody paid 500. Wow, excellent reasoning, excellent deduction. You are absolutely correct. $530,700. Great sale. But at the end of the day, you know, I think both parties won. But he might have gotten a deal in the long run. I'M telling you, that's exactly what I said about the WEMBY. 1 of 1. You might have gotten deal by paying. Still paying these extraordinary numbers for a piece of cardboard. But, yes. These are the only, I guess, answers saying both buyer and seller did well. It's very rare but very true. Okay, another card. The 2019 Bowman Chrome draft. So it's first Bowman auto of Corbin Carroll's super Fracture card just sold over or under 100k. Corbin Carroll. I. I like Corbin Carroll. Me too. I've always thought he was. He was unreal. Him and Pete Crowe, Armstrong, actually very, very similar, but different. But like the future of kind of like baseball superstars. Yeah. I think his market was hot when he came in. Obviously, it tanked. And for it's superfractor auto. Yep. So it's the card you want if you're a Corbin Carroll super fan. Right. Man, I know it tanked. I would have said it went under, like, under, like, over the past few years, but I know, like, he's only like 24 or whatever age he is, but he's on high trajectory, too. Playing well this year too, still. He's playing well, you know, and that. That. That's what might have given it the bump. Over. Okay. You know, so I. I think it was under, but I could see it going over. But I also wouldn't be surprised if it stayed under. So what are you saying? I. I'm gonna say over, but say over. Okay. Yeah, I. It could have reached that. The correct answer. You're right. $123,220. What was the sale? That I don't know. But. Okay. It's an. I. I've. I was saying to Jason, our mutual friend, and. About this card, or about Corbin Carroll in particular, how I just feel like he's super underrated and he's one guy. I wouldn't mind grabbing a couple of cards right now and just holding, but, yeah, for sure. Corbin Carroll. Good for that. Buyer and seller again. Win, win for the buyer and seller. Win, win there. All right, last question. Topps. They celebrated 75 years of Topps baseball, and they did. So if you remember when we Talked about series 1, 20, 26, series 1, by inserting a redemption card for a 1952 Topps Mickey Mantle card. Very nice. And since that time, a father, son pulled that card and it was raw, or it was a redemption card, but it was raw. And now it's on golden. So you might know the answer to this if you've been paying attention to hobby News. If you haven't, this is a question for you. While it's on auction, what golden did was grade it for them. Okay. Okay. And I think the auction ends in a couple weeks, I think. So the question is, what grade did that card receive? Oh, wow. So it was a redemption and then they actually got the card now? Yes. So Redemption and Topps actually held the card because it was a redemption because they didn't want to damage it within the pack. Yeah, yeah. Okay. So they revealed it once the redemption card was redeemed and golden graded it for them while it's on auction. Kind of like what they did with the Logan Paul's Pikachu card. Remember where they regraded it? Re slabbed it. So that's interesting approach. Well, I believe a clue. A clue. I think last bids was get nearing six figures. 100,000. So people know about it now? Yes. What grade it is? The grade has been revealed. I don't know. 52 mantle prices, that's the problem. If it's over 100k, let me think. 9, 5, 5. Wow. So it would have to be. Under a 7. I would think it has to be over, man. I would imagine like a 3 maybe. So I would say between 3. I mean if they put like a PSA 6, that would be pretty crazy too. I'm gonna say it's a PSA4. All right, I'll give you one more clue. The current bid I just checked right now is 150k. 150k? 183. With the buyer's premium, I'm gonna say PSA 4. Good guess. It was graded a PSA 5.5. Oh, that's pretty high. Yeah. And so what, what, what's the value of a 5 5? Like we wouldn't know, but like based on like, let's just say a PSA9 at like five or six million, whatever it is, a five and a half. I'm seeing one sold at Heritage Auction. Oh, this had auto. So not a good comp. December 2024, last sale was 138k for a PSA 5 and a half. Yeah. Oh, interesting. Yeah. So that might be a $250,000 card. Could be, yeah. And 17 days left in the auction as of this recording, so. Okay, so it might be more because there's more eyes on it too. You gotta remember it's a marketing thing. More, more than anything. Right. So it's gonna be a record, record breaking sale. It's gonna be great for 52 mantle because there's a lot of attention on it. Yes. And five and a half is a really good grade on that card. So it's a, it's a monster. I think people were really surprised when it got revealed. I, I, that's, I'm surprised. Yeah. I was gonna lean towards a PSA 3 or 2. Originally I thought it was like a PSA 1. No, that's a what a pull for that. Yeah. Crazy. All right, great job. We'll end off with our regular weekly segment we call Pick one. All right. Hyung, you got one for us? Sure. We're gonna go. I'm looking at the Shohei market. Again, not for myself personally. I'm just gonna bring out two interesting sales, two thought patterns and I wanna see which way you would go. So the two cards are 2018 Topps Chrome Complete set. Okay. It's complete complete set refractor of Shohei Ohtani PSA 10. Okay. So it recently sold on auction for 6,500 bucks. Okay. So I remember when this card like was so cheap because it was, it was not the original Topps Chrome. Right. But I love that card. I think it's a great image. Especially like the rookie debut image for instance does really well. I think this card's way better in terms of it being a refractor. He has a nice swing, it's a hitting image and all the above. So I think it's a great card. 6500. That was a sale at the same time a 2018 Topps Chrome Prism refractor. Okay, I know you, you don't like prisms too much. But it is the card number 150. So white jersey tops chrome. So I would say his most desired Topps Chrome rookie card image and the Prism refractor in a PSA 10 sold for 6,000 bucks. What's the better buy in this situation in this Ohtani market? I don't know if this is a bias of mine, but when there's so many different cards available for a player, unless it is the flagship or it is the top two or three image cards, naturally by hobby consensus, you know you're, there's always like oh yeah, that's the number one car for Ohtani. Or like non autograph. I don't think the Prism refractor, like obviously it's, it is for that top scroll. But then the second layer is exactly what you're pointing out. The different refractors available out there. And so one bias is I don't like the Prism refractor. So that's like the point off for that. But nowadays I'm more into like the niche like, you know, and again like it's kind of related to what I mentioned in a previous podcast, my super fracture strategy. Like if I think the art or the image is really nice and it's undervalued because not a lot of people know about it at some point. If the, if you believe in that player like Ohtani, he seems to be as a sure bet as you can get, I think that card will just continue to appreciate in value. So I'm going, I didn't even know the complete set retail existed until you just mentioned it 20 seconds ago. So I'm like, it is a nice car. Yeah. This is a nice card. I do like low pop. Yeah. Less than 200. I think I just looked it up. Yeah. I think for me it's a no brainer. I'm just going with, I'm just going to trust my gut on this one. Go with a complete set retail. Interesting. And you know, something to mention, like the way I, I, I guess the hobby used to look at cards before was, you know, you got your flagship that and it's rightfully so. I think it will always be that way. In terms of, terms of still, if there's a number one card, you're gonna still want the white jersey over any other secondary set. Yeah. But if you take Ohtani's, all of his base cards, so you have the most amount is obviously paper. You have his white jersey, red jersey and paper. So that's the base, as base as you can get in the Topps lineup. Then you got Topps Chrome, which is a little bit more rare. You want something better, you move up to a Tops Chrome. Right. Then you go into the refractors and stuff, colored parallels and then you have your tops paper image variations. Right? Yeah. This is where I find, this is where I see the complete set. It starts acting almost as more of an image variation, not a secondary set alternative. Right. So if you look at all Ohtani available cards, it becomes, I think super undervalued in that sense where it's like a SSSP or a SP, you know, type card. Even though it's just a regular released, low printed, complete set. Like complete set before in the hobby was all complete set. Right. That's like way down there, you know what I mean? I find that was Hobby logic and now it's like real market, real buy. I think that card's way better than the Prism 2 because of that reasoning. Right. But the market might not agree. So is it the better investment, because the prism might be more liquid if. Let's just say Ohtani wins a Cy Young and the prism goes crazy just because you have more data available and buyers are emotional. Whereas less sales on the complete set, where that cycle becomes a lot longer in terms of. You'll see the profit a lot longer in terms of the time frame. Right. So there's that argument. So I see both sides, but in this case with Ohtani, I'm bullish, so I'm not looking for a quick flip. I'm looking for good assets. The complete set is that card. Yep. Excellent points. Again, as. As it often does with our pick ones. It depends on your timeline, how quick you want to flip it. For sure. Yeah, I agree with you. Liquidity. Yeah, for sure. Okay. Thanks, Hyang. I'll end off with mine. It's Wemby. Did you know I never bet in sports? Because I bet. I did a bet with a friend of mine who's from New York. The winner buys the other person a six pack. Just like something, you know, I don't want to bet big. I'm like, and we bet before the finals. And I bet OKC or San Antonio. The spurs. Whoever wins out of that will beat the Knicks, who at the time we made the bet, the Knicks were already in. Right. And I thought he was an idiot for taking that bet. It's like, oh, I'll go with the Knicks, he's hometown bias kind of thing. And here we are as of this recording, one win away. The Knicks are gonna win the championship. New York's gonna be crazy if they pull it off. But anyway, I. That's why I never been sports. I just never win in these big bets. So that's why you always bet the opposite of what you think. Yes, I cover myself in that way, you know, But I'm gonna talk about Wemby. His cards are still going off, though, and I wonder if it's gonna slow down if the spurs don't win this year. And the offseason might be a buying opportunity, but on one side you have the 2025 Topps Chrome, and there's a skyright signature. So it's on card auto. It's a base auto of this, the subset Topps Chrome, PSA 10 for about 5K. What year was that? 20, 25, 26. So it's licensed. The licensed. Licensed auto. Yes. Right. But not as rookie. But on the other side is his 2023 silver prism rookie card number 136. The black curtain that we all know. PSA 10 also going for 5k. Which one would you rather have? Essentially both 5k. Sorry, they're both 5k. Both 5k. You have a picture of the auto? Yes, I do. That's gonna be the factor for me. Really? Yeah. That would be more of question of licensed non rookie auto or. No? No, I don't like the license. Unlicensed rule. They do apply, but there's a asterisk beside Wemby and Otani. Okay, fair enough. There you go. And there are different parallels to this card too. I don't know if that would sway your decision one way or another, but this is a pop. What's the pop? The pop is right there on the bottom. Three six. Three three eight. Eight. Damn. That's a lot. A lot more than I thought. Like I said, it's a base, so it's not numbered, but yes, 388, 500 is the total. Pumps pop. So I think, I think long term, this card is a better buy. Short term, the prism is the better buy. So. But for me, Wemby, knowing what Ohtani went through, I'm going with scarcity over liquidity. Because for me, like I said, I've seen Ohtani Mark Ohtani is the perfect. It's the Ohtani effect. There's a new rule called the Ohtani effect, and I find Wemby falls into that category. So I'm gonna go more long term. Although I think the silver will win out in liquidity. Like, it'll do better in the short run than the Wemby auto. The Wemby auto will be better in the long run, though. So I'm gonna go Wemby Auto. Oh, I. Man, I'm. I feel like I'm flip flopping now because I am leaning. See it. Would you rather have a second year Ohtani first year licensed auto? Let's just say that was even a thing, but let's just even use it in a basic standard, a 2019 tops chrome auto versus like a tops chrome pitching refractor PSA 10, right? Yeah. You know what I mean? Yeah. If you put it that way, it's definitely a lot easier, but oh, man, the X factor. Okay. And this is what's getting me Panini Prism no longer really relevant anymore because they lost the license. So this is like the last, you know, when be that year and the year after is kind of the last of relics of the prism. How many Prism silver prisms are there though? Like 5005k. Yeah, but it's all relative, right? It's all relative to the market. Yeah, that's the thing. That's what we're seeing. Because Ohtani. Ohtani's would have been way lower, right? Like 2000 or something. Yeah, yeah. But if Wemby is like this generational player, plays a full career, that 5k seems low to me all of a sudden. And the Silver Prism. I'm back in. I think I'm back in Silver Prism. Yeah. I mean, like I said, you could go both ways and it depends on your exit strategy. Right. But you know what? You helped me out. If I thought about the Ohtani that way, I would have definitely gone for the 2019 Topps Chromato. So I'm gonna go with this. Skyright signatures 2025 1B the Sweet. All right, thanks again for all our listeners tuning into this episode. We'll have a brand new one for you on Friday. We'll talk to you then. Bye. Hey, thanks for listening to Cards to the Moon. We'd really appreciate you subscribing to our podcast wherever you listen to your podcasts. And you can also connect with each of us on Instagram five card guys. Or you can follow hyung at integrity sportscards or john@tradeyoueccess. You can also check us out at fivecardguys.com thanks again and hope to connect soon.