Will Ohtani Card Prices Ever Come Down (And Other Card Implications Now That World Series is Over); Plus Another Joint Episode and Fun Debate with Paul Hickey of The Sports Card Strategy Show

You're listening to Cards to the Moon, a podcast about trading cards from both a collector and investor perspective. We hope you'll stick around for the ride as we take a deep dive into the state of the hobby, share some hot takes, hopefully some useful advice and fun stories along the way. Welcome back to another Friday edition of Cards to the Moon. This is episode 248. My name is Clark from 5cardguys.com and 5cardguys on Instagram and on YouTube. Co-hosting with me as usual is Hyung of Integrity Sports Cards and John who is TradeU at Recess on IG as well. Later on in today's episode, we've got another pre-recorded joint podcast that I did with Paul Hickey of the Sports Card Strategy Show. A couple of weeks ago, we introduced ourselves to each other's podcast audience. Now for the episode we'll be airing today, we get into a little debate about whether we should care about what hobby influencers post on their respective pages. And we use Jeff Wilson as an example. So that's a little tease for that episode. So stay tuned for that a little later on. But right now, off the top, let's discuss, of course, the World Series and more specifically what we're going to do as baseball card collectors now that the season is over. If you didn't hear already, the Dodgers, they beat the Yankees in five games. Shohei Ohtani finally has his championship title he was looking for. So let's start with us. The first question, and I know I'm beating a dead horse on this podcast, OK? But do you think Ohtani card prices will go down even in the offseason? Because, you know, he's coming off this World Series win. He's coming off a 50-50 season. If you forgot, he won the WBC championship in 2023. And looking forward, he might be on the mound as early as 2025, right? So everything's looking up for Ohtani. So yeah, let's start here. Ohtani, do we just have to pay up for his cards now? I think you do. But I will say this. I think there will be a little reduction in pricing on kind of like the non-numbered cards, you know, like the refractors and the base and stuff like that, where people are more liquidating more so than collecting. So I think there's going to be a combination of both. But like in terms of 2018 autos and 2019-2020 autos, I think you might be able to find a good deal in the offseason. But I don't see it as you're going to steal pricing by no means. I have a couple Ohtani's just, you know, chrome base and refractors and prism refractors that are coming back from PSA. And my plan is to sell as soon as possible to get maximum value because I do think those cards will definitely go down. But like I said, I would, based on what he's done, I think it's more, I guess, reason to shop Ohtani in the offseason, just as kind of like, okay, I have, because I want an Ohtani auto. Like I've made up my mind three years ago after he missed the whole boat. So it's something that definitely every year we discuss. And it's one of those things where you don't want to force it. It's like if you find the right card, you kind of pull the trigger. And that's how usually it is. You run into a card, you're like, oh my God, I need this card. And those are the times when you kind of pull the trigger. Otherwise, I wouldn't force it because I think there's going to be, Ohtani's career has not yet formed, I would say. We haven't peaked. We're still seeing what he's capable of doing. He still has to come back and pitch. Are the Dodgers going to continue this? At the end of the day, the Dodgers won with kind of like a rebuilt secondary team. You got to remember that, right? So it's like if they add pieces, like if Roki Sasaki comes into the equation, stuff like that, where Ohtani might continue to do ridiculous things, then we'll see, right? But yeah, I'm on the lines of that where if a nice auto comes out, definitely be interested, for sure. Oh man, so many regrets, the three of us. I mean, the three of us have been somewhat casually looking for Ohtani autos for a while now. I remember a couple of years ago when I was looking at Red Ink rookie autos for fun, and I thought they were definitely coming down, but I was a little bit out of my price range, and we could have pulled the trigger and made some deals and trades. I think like a lower grade at that time, a Red Ink rookie auto, lower grade like BGS8 or 85. They're probably going for like around six grand. And it's like looking back and I was like, oh man. And I don't know, Clark, I don't know if you recall, but I had sent you a link to I think one of the Bowman High Roller group on Facebook for the Onyx Kanji auto. How was that, like five grand? I'm like, oh, this looks like a pretty good deal. And man, looking back on it, so many regrets. But going back to your question, is it ever going to... Like, I mean, similar to what Hyung is saying, if you're playing in the sort of $100,000, $500,000 price range, you're looking at, you know, Otani Chrome rookie card, PSA 10 or like a pink refractor. If you're sort of in that space, I mean, it'll go down. I mean, I would guess maybe around Christmas time, early January would be the trigger point for the cards. You know, people are in holiday season. They're kind of forgetting about cards. And those cards will be readily available. I would assume those would have some sort of a little bit of a discount. But I mean, bigger cards, if you're in the space to buy like a Red Ink Auto rookie or something really, really big, yeah, pricing might be down this December, but it's probably not going to be available. You know, like somebody with that card, like if the three of us had that card, we are not going to try to sell it during Christmas. We are going to try to sell it in April at spring training, right? So the big boy cards probably won't be available or the pricing will be already built in. It'll be a buy it now for $25,000. They're going to want the price that is built in for next season, right? So it is what it is. I think at this point, you know, most people, we probably miss the boat. If you see a discount in the off season, it'd probably be like five, 10%. But at this point, especially with the championship, you know, I don't think that necessarily is going to make his cards go crazy by any means, but certainly is going to give people the utmost confidence to go all in at this point because now his legacy is becoming cemented, right? There's a lot of questionnaires before, kind of like my trial, like, yeah, he's one of the best of all time, but he doesn't have a championship, right? So I think that question for Atani has sort of been answered. So the legacy, the stamp on his legacy is starting to cement and I think that just gives people the confidence to go all in. So I don't know. Yeah, I don't think there's going to be a down period for Atani at this point, unless he gets a massive injury next year, like a really career-threatening injury, like that would be the only thing that could risk it at this point. Yeah, no, that's true. And, you know, kind of what you guys both touched upon, his legacy is being cemented, but he's adding even more to his legacy. Like he can add another four or five years, just add even more accolades. It's ridiculous what the peak could be for Atani, which is what I'm afraid of in terms of like, whether I'm able to ever pull the trigger on a nice mid to high-end card. At this point, the three of us, we have to pool our money together to get one. You know what I mean? We each can't get one for a good, decent price, you know? So I think that's where we're at now. And yeah, I don't have much to say, you know, the expo is coming out. We're going to talk about it in our next episode, but I'm sure any Atani cards out there will be ridiculously priced. We're not going to get a good deal on it, you know? And it's November now, right? Okay, I want to talk about the other players quickly as well. Freddie Freeman, the most likable guy in MLB, won the MVP in the World Series. And I want to throw in Mookie Betts too, because we always talk about Mookie and how the hobby doesn't respect him enough. Do you think this World Series win, there's going to be more respect for these guys? Or do you think it's going to be more of the same? What do you think? I think it won't manifest immediately because I feel like Mookie could do whatever he can do, but he gets no love, right? Same with Freddie Freeman. Actually, Freeman has been sitting sideways for the longest time just recently because he's gone off. I remember I had an X-Fractor and I sold it for like $900, but that same X-Fractor sold for $2,800. Yeah, wow. Right? So that's 3x from last year's offseason. But Mookie Betts, to me, I think he's so undervalued. I think there's so much opportunity in multiple ways, whether it's Topps Paper, whether it's his Bowman Chrome first auto, I think, and Topps Chrome as well, for that matter. There's so much buying opportunity with Mookie Betts. He would be one guy that I would be like, okay, this guy's a three-time World Series champion. I think he's won the MVP. He's going to finish off probably as, I would say, I could only say one of four modern-day position players that would reach that 100 War Marker. And there's only probably three modern players from 1990 and on that's on that list. So to me, he's elite and his prices are rock bottom, like for someone of that nature. So me personally, I think I'm looking for Mookie Betts. I think he's started to solidify his legacy. He might have a couple more championships under his belt with LA in the next few years as well. So I'm big on Mookie. And I think there's tremendous buying opportunity there, for sure. Yeah, I think I agree. Mookie, yeah, he probably got pretty overshadowed in this championship again by Shohei and, of course, Freddie Freeman. I mean, he's been deserving love, but he hasn't been getting any. So I think this will certainly shine a light. You can see in the prices, his prices have spiked a bit. And I think that'll garner some overall respect for his long-term career when all is said and done. So this is a very good mark for Freddie. But for Mookie, it's kind of under the radar. And to be honest, Clark, for somebody like you that's always been on the Mookie train in terms of investment, it might actually be okay. Because even though he's won a championship and, again, cementing legacy and everything that Hyung said about his trajectory to war numbers and all of that stuff, he can go down as maybe what Mike Trout was supposed to be. Like he could be on that trajectory. And he's the closest, I think. He's just quietly doing it. So somebody that's looking to invest in some big-time Mookie cards, I really think he could be the move in terms of what you should be investing in over Shouhei, which might sound insane. But Mookie is pretty undervalued. For the price, I don't think it's wrong. For that price, yeah, absolutely. Yeah, 100%. No, I agree with both of you. Mookie and Freeman, I'm looking at Freeman cards too now, right? I mean, I'm not gonna pull the trigger because it's spiked. But I'm sure it's gonna drop a little bit. But those guys, I don't mind buying and then holding till they retire. Because I just feel like there's gonna be more... I have to believe there's gonna be more respect for these guys when all is said and done. They're like, wow, these guys were incredible. Like look at their career stats. They've won world championships, multiple world championships. And then I feel like to a certain degree, it's like Ken Griffey Jr. I know he's never won a World Series championship, right? But at the same time, collectors now are like, oh, wow, he's had a great career. And then people are wanting Ken Griffey Jr. cards in general. And I feel like at the time when he was playing, there wasn't that same level of respect. But now people are seeing in the span of their whole career, oh, I wouldn't mind having this Hall of Famers card. You know what I mean? So I think the same is gonna play out for Mookie and Freeman, except these guys have won championships. So I think there's that extra added factor. Yeah, and to your point, I forgot to mention this with Otani. The Dodgers could be contending for another solid two, three, four years. And then, you know, you heard rumors that Soto might sign with the Dodgers, which will be, if he does that, then what are the other 26 teams doing? Like why play baseball at this point? Why even watch baseball with the fans? It's gonna be back to back to back Dodgers championships, right? So, all right, let's look at the other side. The Yankees, they got bounced, but you got your Judges, you got your Volpe, who had some key moments in the World Series, and he's only 23 years old, right? So he's a young player. And then you have Dominguez as well. They didn't use him in the World Series, but of course they're gonna need him for the future because guys like Judge and even Stanton are getting older. You think there's more opportunities to buy Yankees players or are you just like not interested? I think I think there's a there's also a buying opportunity still on Soto and Aaron judge Oh, no, of course like for me. Yeah for me like if we're before buying in the mindset of Goats 100 plus war type players. I would say Mookie bets Juan Soto would be probably the next guy that that this is this is how crazy Mookie is if Juan Soto did What he's done for the past I guess seven years because he's been in the league since 19 and He does that until he's like 39 He might break a hundred war That's Soto. That's Soto So he has to do do the same thing for the next 13 seasons or so to be like a hundred plus war guy Aaron judge The rate he's going at same thing He he'll play up to 40 and he might be at like 90 to 100 Mookie bets The way he's playing He continues he'll be at like a 105 just to give you context of how good Mookie bets is and how like Soto is amazing, but that's to put into context. You got to do this for 13 more years So I see so Soto still Like he's still Unbelievable. He's a fan favorite. He has swag He has so much confidence that a lot of people like so I think he'll be always hot and there's buying Opportunities for Soto there some of his cards are overpriced, but some of his cards are underpriced So it's just a matter of auditing that and dissecting. Okay, what's a good value buy for Soto? I believe in that as a player and this is a great card that might hold value in the future and Aaron judge the Same way. I think there's buying opportunities there I think some are inflated but Again, there's there's some good in terms of the young guys guys like Anthony Volpe If you play in that game, I like that game too, because I I believe in Anthony Volpe's talent I think he's gonna be a really good player. He has a chance to be a 30-30 type player Whether he does that or not It's to be Seen but I think it was a big coming-out year for for Volpe. You seen his passion You know, he's a solid Defender he's a solid player that I think if he could get that Batting average respectable to 290 play that Derek Jeter type game But still be able to hit 20 to 30 home runs and steal 30 plus bags I think his there's value there because he's crashed a lot over the last couple years So some of this stuff is really cheap and Dominguez. I'm a big believer in Dominguez You know, this is the kind of marriage you want you have a young stud who has high potential He's in the big limelight with the New York Yankees. So it's either you know It's either bust or you know go in on Dominguez But again Dominguez has that hype still around him more than Volpe So I think there's there's a lot of overpriced cards for Dominguez But also there's opportunities because Dominguez could simply become an all-star type player on the New York Yankees I know some Yankees fans might disagree because he's been kind of disappointing over last but you got to remember He's what is he now like 21 21 years old or whatever. He is still he's still super young And most of these guys peak between the ages of 25 and 32, right? So we're projecting that side of things. But yeah, other than that those guys I will say one more guy that I would look out for is is Yamamoto, I think I think his prices have gone down and with the attention on Oh Tani I think he's gonna be a 20 game winner with the Dodgers if he stays healthy All he does his whole career is win. He he pitches to contact for the most part He doesn't strike out a bunch of people like, you know You know he averages probably one strikeout per innings pitched a probably a little more and I think Yamamoto's prices have gone down a lot since his hype so I think there might be a buying opportunity with Yamamoto if he comes out and Becomes a 20 game winner next year because I think Paul Skeen's kind of broke that Pitching kind of like illusion of pitchers don't hold pricing. So I think that's finally changing We've said that for the last few years But yeah I think those are the guys that I would kind of focus in on on the offseason and last point on Freddie Freeman I mean he keeps on doing what he's doing just to give you context He'd be at it like a 80 war in his career, which is great I mean Ken Griffey jr. Was like 83 84 war so like you're talking kind of same impact type player That Freddie Freeman is but it just gives you more context on how valuable The buy is on Mookie Yeah, yeah, I mean I I don't really have too much to add to that because young Interesting interestingly enough. There are like pretty pretty good value opportunities within the Dodgers and the Yankees and I mean Sad as a Jays fan But it appears as though the Yankees and Dodgers for the next little bit might be Dominant and we could see this again and again and again So I think that's why there's a lot of our people like vote got like Volpe if he can get consistent I could clearly see him becoming sort of like a fan favorite as a Yankee. So there's opportunity there Matt judge That guy made me Like a bit of a fool because you know, you guys know how I have always felt about judge. I always kind of you know stay away from him because of his inconsistency sometimes and Yeah, I think the last episode I was like, you know what I'm convinced I think he's gonna be There he goes for the in the playoff just batting like a buck and you know the other outside of the one home run he got right at right at the end to kind of Make up for it man, like judge is that that's what I'm always worried about, you know, but as somebody clerk like you who is More all-in I judge or more convinced than somebody like me. It does present an opportunity because I think judges You know his his reputation Got a little stained because his playoff right and I think that might make his price Prices continually be a little depressed as they already kind of were and and for somebody that really believes in judge even young Was saying how there's opportunity. I think I 100% agree. I wouldn't be I'm not touching him because I'm just not You know a judge believer like that, but for somebody who does believe I think yeah, there's opportunity for sure, right? So two points directly related to judge Yankee fans, you could play him John for his atrocious Playoff stats because when he jumped on the bandwagon, that's when he started to decline and now that John's off of judge again guys invest full invest No, but seriously, I am oh, I'm actually always nervous about judge because Like he's proven me wrong this season obviously with the 58 home run season, right, which is crazy But I always wonder if he can do it again, and he's a year older, you know He's in his 30s now right and and I feel like for a guy like judge He's got to hit 50 home runs for the next few years for his pricing to continue to go up You know, even a 40 home run season, which is obviously good. I Think that'll be a knock on judge. You know, I mean if you had a 40 homers It'll be almost seen as a disappointment from for a lot of collectors, you know And and I think that's the perspective with judge. So I'm more I'm nervous. I'm also I'm actually siding with you John I'm kind of off of judge, you know, even if it goes down Unless it goes down a lot But I don't think it would dip down that much to tell you the truth because there's a lot of judge fans, right? so and you know All the only thing I want to add is Dominguez, you know Yankees fans being Yankee fans when they were slumping there They're like take Verdugo out and put Dominguez in and you know, like people are still I think Expecting a lot from Dominguez. So there might be opportunity there And you know who knows what he'll do like you said young he's a really young guy and he's got to show power for his pricing to sustain essentially, but Yeah, I don't know. I Guess out of all the guys with for the Yankees. I'm still you know, so does the guy I think he's gonna be overpriced and we'll see what happens with him in the offseason I I'm betting if I'm gonna if I'm gonna bet I'm betting that he's gonna stay with the Yankees I think that makes sense. All right So so that'll be good for his card value, too We talked about the Yankee bump, right and him being with the Yankees long-term will be only good for people that collect and like to Invest in one Soto. I will say this on judge because you guys are judge haters But I will say I will say I think he's gonna hit 600 plus home runs in his career Would that change would that change your take on it if he becomes a 600 plus New York Yankee career home run hitter? Remember 500 is the Hall of Fame. I would say line Right. What's he at now? He's at 315. I believe 300. Let me check you think he's gonna go to six Oh, he so so he double he did he did 315 in nine years, but two of those seasons two of those seasons I would say were He had 95 plate appearances and 114. So in seven and a half years He did He did 315 home runs. So if he's healthy He'll do 300 home runs in seven years in seven seasons that will put him at 39 If he's healthy if he stays healthy if he's healthy tag is yeah, it's all almost got to be perfect. Perfect, right? Yes, but I will say this his he's he's hit the last four seasons He's hit 39 62 37 and 58 so if he keeps that pattern Going which he's done for the last four years. He stayed healthy for the most part and He does have a six seven frame. So for me, I don't think the body's breaking down till you know Especially with with how LeBron's playing and technology, you know increasing on keeping the body healthy at a at an older age I'm just saying that he's a New York Yankee Definitely he's gonna I think he's gonna hit 500 and Potentially 600 I would say that I think 600 is a stretch just because He gets older every year too, right? So, you know, you got to take that into consideration I think 500 is definitely within reach though. Mm-hmm Yeah, and if he hits 500 then I think there will be a bump because that's a nice number to achieve You know, not a lot of people are in the 500 home run club either, right? But yeah, like to your original question if he goes 600, of course, yeah, I think that's gonna be a big deal But I just don't think he will Just call me a judge Yeah, if he does 600 there's no question his is because exactly like Clark said For judges price to be relevant or stay hot he's got to be hitting home runs and You know add a clip of like 50 home runs per year And if you're we're talking 600 home runs like he's got to be at that means he is at that clip Which means his price will be very very relevant So yeah, the easy answer to young's question is for sure if he had 600, there's no question. He will be Elite status in terms of hobby collecting. Yep for sure All right. Let's end it. Let's end off here I'm looking forward to the offseason because you know, I really do want to pick up some cards So I'll be checking my eBay watch list more frequently and you know what? We'll also try to do a year-end wrap-up of the baseball season with our friends from the Apple taco podcast Chris bag and Jason Willow To get their thoughts on which players to potentially target for 2025. All right with that Let's play the joint pod we had with Paul Hickey right now Clark from cards to the moon and five card guys. How you doing? My man? Pretty good. Pretty good. Good to see you again, Paul Yeah, man. I'm excited to talk to you. So last time we spoke you mentioned that you have a card a Luka Donchik 2018 contenders optic rookie ticket auto blue out of 99 gorgeous looking card by the way, and it's in And you said on the show that you were into it for around $6,000, is that right? Yeah 63 64 to be nice more precise. Yeah. Okay, cool. So Last week on the sports card strategy show I presented some data Basically Telling everybody that this first week of the NBA season Which is the first week of the NBA season This first week of the NBA season Which we're in right now is the time to go ahead and get your basketball cards listed get them liquidated because historical data shows that the prices will fall over the next few months before they rise again and without boring everybody on all that data people can go back and listen to the sports card strategy show from last week to kind of hear more about my case, but I want to pose a question to you and Just kind of unpack this a little bit I guess the first question is have you considered selling this card or at least listing it for sale? right now Knowing that when we look at recent sales data of this card I mean, obviously we're not gonna find too many sales in your exact grade But when you look at the recent sales of this card say in SGC 1010 which is a similar gem meant to gem meant comparison Even when you look at it, you know in a PSA 10 There's not many recent recent sales But when you look at the comps It seems to me like you could make money on this card if you if you listed it for sale right now Have you considered selling it? That's a good question The precise answer is no I haven't considered it because I think I believe when we talk last I have a couple of buckets in terms of what I like to collect and where they belong and This card is kind of like my mid to long-term hold, you know a nice higher end stud player that I you know that I don't mind holding on to and Lucas you know if you look at the odds in terms of MVP favorites he's top three so that's another you know reason why just to hold on but I get what you're saying though because I do agree that for the most part before the beginning of the season the hype cycles there people are just overly optimistic about their own players their own cards that they hold and and and generally speaking it's a good time so I understand where the question is coming from but no I haven't considered selling maybe after discussion maybe you can convince me that I should at least list it for a price that I'd be good with but no I maybe it's out of laziness too I don't know because I know what you do Paul you do a lot of flips and and can I be honest it seems like a lot of work it is a lot of work it is a lot of work and and so thank you for allowing me to to kind of interrogate you here Clark because I want to I want to drill down on this a little bit further here for the audience so yeah not only does the data show that this is the time to in general list basketball cards but we're seeing the runway shrink of the hype cycle leading up to each season I'm concerned that this card is gonna dip quite a lot before it could potentially rise again and not only due to the historical data patterns but also because it is Luka Doncic and he is coming off a heck of a season last year where he already exceeded expectations for the Dallas Mavericks taking him to the NBA Finals they added Klay Thompson you know on paper they look a lot better this year to me it is the perfect recipe for a massive dip on this card before and it would take I believe another Mavs finals appearance for this card to come back up again to where it is now so I just I just ask you this and you make a fair point that it is a lot of work but I ask you this Clark so if you were to tell your wife that you're in this situation right now what would you say she was tell me to sell 100% especially if it could be a for a potentially a two three four thousand dollar profit right absolutely yeah I mean take away fees I think you're probably looking at maybe like a a 2k to 3k somewhere in there right I mean but Canadian Canadian maybe that is 4k I don't know I'm not doing that with the exchange rate the way it is now is that it might even be 5k Canadian but you know you know what you make a fair point because I I have card ladder and the last sold price that just was I guess it was published later because they don't publish a lot of alt listings right away the the alt marketplace platform and it sold recently for eight thousand nine hundred back in April and that was of course during the playoff run so that's the new comp and I got it for 64 so that's all to say there is an argument to be had that this is a good this is a great time to list and see see if there's any takers and so I also want to kind of dig a little bit further into the psychology of this because I think this is where I go when I when I think about these decisions when you bought this card and through now right I mean I'm sure like emotions change like thoughts change you know things change but when you bought this card through the present day what what would you say your ultimate goal would be just from like not not even like a transactional goal but just kind of like an emotional goal like for example would you want to be like the Toronto Blue Jays GM when they traded for Joe Carter and then won that won that World Series like is it like you know the equivalent of that where you're like you're buying this card at a certain price point and we haven't asked you if you bought it wrong got it graded that's another thing I'm interested in did you buy it in its current form in the BGS nine five ten and then maybe like talk us through just as you're holding this is it a case where you're struggling listing the card for sale or selling the card you mentioned laziness because it is work and that's fair and I think that's actually like a big thing for people in the hobby not that people are lazy but just that it is work and sometimes they'd rather just the card than actually do the work of listing it for sale and that's fair or is it like a emotional connection to the card where you're like you just love the card or is it that that fantasy sports GM type of feeling where you really maybe it's not as much about the dollars and cents but it's about sort of winning winning the game for you walk us through like what's your thought process with this particular card yeah all great questions I would say well one of the questions you asked was how did I acquire this card so I just got off eBay as a BGS 95 so I didn't I didn't grade it or anything the card is still in this BGS 95 slab so that's how I got it but I think how I viewed this card in particular is that and why I consider it more of a mid to long-term hold is I prior to this I liquidated a lot of my low to mid end cards you know the cards that we got when the height of the pandemic was going on and and all of its lost its value up to 50 60 70 percent I'm just liquidating as much as possible you look into my sports card briefcase it's about 1 8th full now right and then I just got liquidated and and then you know with with a dip in the market all these higher-end cards like the Luka one also dipped in price so I'm trying to accumulate some of these higher-end cards and then kind of stashing it so that was my play for this particular card there's like maybe four or five athletes I want to do that for and you know I'm always looking for a nice high-grade Stephen Curry rookie card you know I already have a Mike Trout rookie card who I'm still high on despite all the injuries I'm looking for Ohtani card although right now it's a horrible time to get Ohtani card but you know if there's a dip so like there are a few cards I just want to buy and hold on to because I just really really believe in that player long term right and Luke is one of those guys but you know that being said I say this to my friends all the time there's a there's a number for every card I'm not romantic about you know 99% of my cards either if someone came said hey 12,000 cash it's yours you know like I would do it right on the spot so but I you know all that said I'm okay with holding this card yet you make a compelling argument to reconsider that and so so we'll see off air if I if I end up listing it or not all right well I have one more piece of my hopefully still compelling argument here and just real quick so in PSA 10 according to market movers this is a pop 4 and you've got a BGS 9 5 so I don't know what the pop there is and we know that like the BGS 9 5 doesn't always transfer over into the PSA 10 but in PSA 10 it's a pop 4 and so we're dealing with a really a really rare card and to me part of the mystique behind holding a rare card and maybe holding it for like the massive massive selling marker is the story right it's the story of okay I believe in this player I bought it at this point in time for this price and then I flipped it at this other point in time later for this price and I made X amount of money it's about the story so I think what I try to do is reverse engineer that story and I and I and I say okay well then really what's the difference between selling it now for a profit and selling it later for a profit do I really want to hold the card through the ups and downs that I know are coming or do I want to put myself in a position to maybe make more plays and have even more fun in the hobby so the way that I like to play devil's advocate with people that are kind of holding the way that you're holding is I like to look at what if we sold this Luka card now and made that you know say three to four thousand dollar profit that we might be able to make we all know this isn't guaranteed and things like that because again it's a really low pop card but this is a good time to sell it and then what if we went into a card like Luka's 2018 prism silver PSA 10 which is not that card right I mean this is a this that particular card the Luka 2018 prism silver PSA 10 actually has some of the opposite type of mystique towards it where it used to be back in like 2021 a card that was going for several thousand dollars dipped under a thousand dollars and is now back over $1,000 US but if you look at the way that that market for that particular card has settled since then it's a really really stable asset and currently it's a pop 2340 according to market movers in PSA 10 the prism silver and if you look at being able to move into that card we're only about a month away from you being able to move into that card for really it's low over the last hundred and eighty days and we're two months away from you being able to move into that card and it's 365 day low the closer we get to Christmas so devil's advocate what people could be doing and I'm just using your card as an example what everybody could be doing with their big cards is they could be liquidating right now if it's a basketball card like this but like literally right now because the drop-offs about to happen and then two months from now move into either the same card which probably won't be possible in your case because it's so low pop but in your case you could move into other cards for the same player for their 365 day low and then watch as they rise into January and closer we get to playoff time so from a sports card flipping perspective yeah I that's my challenge to you my challenge to you is will you even list this for sale are you gonna are you gonna and is there something here Clark is there something in you that is more of a collector that's like I really just love this card and I really just want to look at it for as long as possible and have it in my possession because the fiscally responsible thing to do my friend is to go ahead and move it now get that cash but continue to play the Luka play the way that you want to do it just do it with the market trends and time the market on a different card yeah that's pretty intriguing a couple things that came up to mind while you're kind of going through the talking points they're challenging you challenging me is I guess it makes more sense if the money you play with or the money you use to purchase guards is only funded from the cards that you sell right so for me like yourself we're content creators so I do get money that way and I apportion some of the money that I make from content creation to buying cards rather than flipping all the time and using the money from what I flip for into reinvesting together sometimes I do that of course depending on the card depending how much it is so that's something I consider as well like I don't need to sell this card to get into more plays you know I can get into more plays now while still keeping this card and that kind of ties into your last point there I am I do consider myself a collector I love looking at this color match card is a beautiful card on card auto number 299 so there is that definitely that part of me that wants to hold on to the card and display it on my case where it is right now you know every time I walk by going to my en suite bathroom I see the card I'm like yeah it's a nice-looking card you know it's like you like to just you know just display it proudly right so I think I think that's why I would hold on to the 2018 silver prism is an interesting one that is an interesting take as well because I used to own it and I did buy it for 2,000 I sold it for 12 okay so there's a history there it hurts a little bit I'm kind of over it now that's okay yeah that's that's what happens sometimes but I get I get your point with how the trends follow with those kind of cards in particular and when I say those kind of cards I mean the lower to mid end is more predictable whereas the higher end ones it's a bit more volatile it's not as doesn't move according to seasonal trends or patterns as as consistently as the lower to mid end like the silver prism so to speak so I feel like there's not that direct correlation perhaps I could get a higher end card if I if I bought silver prism but but it could just be as equally likely that those higher end cards don't come down in price anytime soon especially if lucas really does start to play well those high-end collectors are gonna hold for a bit longer and it might even go up so there's that risk as well because ultimately my play is to collect more and more higher end cards for my personal slash personal collection and then you know or mid to long-term investment hold and that's why I rather hold on to these cards and then you know that's this is not mutually exclusive that doesn't mean I'm not going to buy low to middle end cards just to see if there's a play there because I'm more likely to buy that separately for example silver prism with the intent of selling it within a year a much shorter timeline so that's kind of my thought process as you're talking what I'm like what would I do and I think that's kind of my first thought when you played out that scenario yeah that's those are amazing points I mean first of all like Clark just said look you know I'm fortunate enough to have other income where I don't have to necessarily use my income from flipping cards to put into the next play kind of putting things in a vacuum and giving context around things I think is really important also like this does to me speak to what what makes you happy what makes you happy in the hobby and you know what makes me happy is like selling to Paolo Bankero rookie ticket autos for a small profit before the season starts rather than try to hold them and through the rollercoaster of the price coming down and then maybe going back up again if the Orlando Magic make a run in the playoffs and being okay with the value going up on those cards if the Magic do for whatever reason make a long run into the playoffs and Paulo Banqueiro maybe is this year's version of Anthony Edwards just in the Eastern Conference, right? So I have to be okay liquidating my rare Paulo Banqueiro cards before the season even starts and taking that small profit in my case. I made $600 profit on two Paulo Banqueiro cards and having that be my story of what makes me happy, right? And so I think for those of you out there as long as you have all the information, right? And I think Clark you did an amazing job of like breaking down all the information. Look, this doesn't exclude me from making plays on other Luka or other basketball cards of more achievable amounts or higher pop counts or whatever. It just means I'm looking at things from a holistic perspective and making my decision on what's going to make me the happiest now. I joked about telling your wife about it. But the reason I did that is because on last episode that we did together we talked about like that's a very real side of things, right? That's a very real side of things. So glad that you don't need the money from the Luka card. I hope that that card doesn't go down. There might not be any evidence. There might not even be a footprint of that card going down because it is so low pop. I just know that the data does say it's a good time to potentially liquidate a card like that and then probably buy back into other Luka cards. But again, you probably wouldn't be able to buy back into that Luka card because it's so low pop. All right, man. Well, hey, thanks for accepting my challenge. Well done. That was fun. That was fun. What do you got for me, brother? Yeah. Well, before I go into my kind of question for you, just one more point on this Luka. Do you consider, because I do to a degree and I don't know if it's right or wrong, but when you look at the peaks of the card, you're like, wow, it's dropped so much that we might be near the bottom. Of course you can't ever time the market, but like this Luka card that I got, I think it was, it peaked at 25 to 30,000 in the three, four years ago. So like for me, you look at the comparison, that's a nice healthy drop into where I got it from. I'm like, okay, I think, you know, I don't know. I can't see this card being, you know, dropping even more because of the card itself. It's a numbered card. It's a color match. I think people are more educated now in the hobby. So this might be close to the base. Do you ever consider that like in terms of where, where was the peak and the high and, and, and then, you know, like this might be a good card to invest. Yeah, 100%. I think the only thing though is for, for a card, this low pop, it's really hard to do that for a couple of reasons. A lot of, in this card's case too, being a 2018 card, it went through 2020, 2021 and 2022, right? Really? I don't, I don't consider anything super valid for a card like this unless it's like 2023 through the current. So, and, and that could be the case with most cards. There are some cards depending on the sport and the player and the scenario of that player. And I'll explain that real quick in a second, where I would look at a 2022 comp, but, so you have to look at historical data for a card and you have to know, okay, I'm buying in at a point where the data says is low. Thus realistically the value could go back up, but I would typically throw out anything from 2021 and 2022. And I would typically, and it doesn't make, uh, make sense for this Luka card, but let's say Victor Winminyama, like because he's a 2023 rookie and his, all of his cards haven't even been out for really even close to a full calendar year yet. Like with the tops Chrome release having just come out. And I think Prism came out in the spring. We're still nine to 12 months away from Victor Winminyama's rookie card market, actually having real historical data that we can compare it to. You have to get through like a full year cycle of a player into their second year to then go back and say, okay, here's a real trend to watch. Is this a low to then buy in to see if there's a potential spike coming based on historical data. So it really, it really takes a long time on the calendar due to the release schedule, due to the fact that for the, for the entire first couple of years of a player's career, it's like increasing supply with kind of the same amount of demand. Uh, you have to let the market cycle kind of settle. So for Luka, for a higher pop card, like the Prism silver PSA 10, I'd be like, yeah, December's an amazing time to buy in because we see it going up into the spring. And if he does make it into the finals again, that card could definitely double for your card. I find it a little bit hard just because it's, it's so low pop and it's gone through the bubble bursting. So I really wouldn't be able to add validity in this case to like a $30,000 sale, but I do agree looking at this card that it could have massive upside, maybe even above your 12 K figure into the future. If Luka does win an NBA championship or multiple NBA championships, this could end up being a card that we could see. Maybe you end up auctioning off at a big auction house one day or three, four times the amount of what it's even worth right now. So, and I mean, I think, so I do think of all places to be patient on a card, I can't fault you for, for being patient with this one. So I think it's a good discussion though, because two or $3,000 is a real number that for most people is pretty significant. Even though you and I are fortunate enough to have other income, I think probably for both of us, it's like, it's, it's pretty hard to imagine just kind of passing on that, which I think is why you say, you know, Hey, if somebody offered me 12 K for it right now, I'd probably, probably have to move it. Yeah, no, no, I appreciate the response. And that's a great point you bring up because a lot of people put too much into that whole bubble era and you should be careful about that too. So that's a good reminder for sure. Yeah. And a lot of people didn't experience it. I mean, I think most of, of our audience at the sports card strategy show is new within the last like nine to 12 months. So those people might go back and look at market movers and go, Oh, wow, that card sold for $30,000. Yeah. And it was a real sale, but that's not going to happen again for the reasons that we all know who were in the hobby back then. Why? Point taken, point taken. Okay. My question is, I kind of alluded to this earlier about me being lazy, but the flip side of it is the work that you put into flipping cards. And I've put some reels in the past about like hobby boxes, like, you know, 2024 tops, you know, flagship and they're what 80, 90 bucks per box. And then, you know, you could get some hits, but then to, to flip, you know, multiple cards from that box you could get a certain profit amount back. But one of the main comments that I get whenever I post those videos is, but did you consider the, the time factor, how much time you put into it and, and you know whether it's even worth it at a certain point to, to make these lower to mid end flips on some of these cards. Is that something you think about when you talk about, you know, even I've been listening to some of your more recent episodes about the tops now, or, you know, the Panini instant cards where it is a low investment, but, but when, if you want to flip it to grade it, there is some work involved. You got to allocate some time to it. I wonder if that's a factor as well in terms of like, you know, time is money that, you know, that people say, and, you know, if it's at a certain point, it is worth it or it isn't worth it. Is there a fact, is there a, like a number that you have, or is it kind of fluid? It's, it's valid. First of all, it's definitely valid. It's something that I've talked about a lot for the last several years, as I've had more and less time in my life, I think it's, it's become more real to me. So there was a point where I was working like literally five or six digital jobs and flipping cards and doing the sports card strategy show. It was when I was moving from Spain to the United States and I knew like our cost of living was about to increase enormously from that move and kind of supporting the family and supporting the move a couple of years ago, I was working all these extra jobs. And so my content at the time reflected that life scenario for me. And it, it did talk a lot about, Hey, you got to be cognizant of how many plays you're making that are say under 50 or $20 because the time is a factor. Like you're, if you're spending a lot of your time buying, receiving, unpacking, grading, receiving again, listing, you know, making sure that you're taking good photos or grabbing the high res photo off of the, you know, the grading company's website or whatever it is. Time definitely adds up. I mean, now from that phase of my life, I've quit all of those jobs and I've become no offseason.com and the sports card strategy show full-time and flipping cards full-time. So now my time, there's more time to make plays on smaller cards if the margins there, but 100% you're right. I mean, my new routine over the last year has become like Sunday night, Monday morning, eBay, printing up labels, packing and shipping cards, filling up the mailbox. For me, if I can gain an efficiency in my process, then I'm going to do it regardless of the dollar amount of the card. But time is definitely a factor. And I think there's, you know, for most of us out there that are watching and listening to this, the average profile of our audience is like middle-aged man that has at least one full-time job supporting a family and other responsibilities. And so I think that there is a sweet spot for most people that's around like the $50 to $100 raw to grade play with the upside or a play like maybe your Luka play or somewhere in between that and your play where you maybe you spend a thousand dollars on an already graded card prospecting that it's at its bottom and it's going to go up. It's a lot less work. Now we also have things like the PSA vault with eBay integration. Of course, there's fanatics collect and a lot of other options, but so those can be time savers. But time is definitely a factor, man, for sure. 100%. Not everybody can be doing the Panini Tops Now stuff that I'm doing right now. I just happen to have the time. So I'm doing it and then trying to educate people on it. And it kind of goes actually like, what makes you happy? Does looking at the Luka card make you happy? And it could be both. Or for me, it's more of, I like the transacting. I like the feeling of, I made the transaction. I'm communicating with the buyer. I'm going to ship them the card. I'm going to put it in the mailbox. I like that feeling more than looking at the card. Fair. Yeah. No, that's totally fair. I was going to add that too at the end. When I make some sales, even if it's like a low to mid end or when I do giveaways where I don't get any money, it's kind of like, it's a nice feeling to send it to someone that you know, bought it, they want the card. That's like an intangible that sometimes we forget as well. So that's a good point. Good question though. I mean, time is definitely money for everyone, whether it's time that's being taken away from their family or time that's being taken away from something else they love to do or time that's being taken away from actually making money. So, but I think I just don't want people missing out on making money in lieu of spending time listing the card and shipping the card, because in those cases, it's definitely worth the time. You know, when your cards are up in value from where you, from where you bought them take the time guys, because the next day or the next week could be back down below what you paid. Good point. Yeah, for sure. I know we usually try to slot a half hour because I know we're both busy, but one thing we did talk about, I don't know if you want to close with this is just to talk about her eBay watch list. Do you want to do something like that? Yeah, we could do that. And then, and then maybe real quick, just go through just a quick, a quick Instagram post that I wanted to ask you about, but yeah, I can go through, you want me to go through my watch list or do you have something you want to talk about? No, you go first and then I'll follow. All right. Sounds good. So recently I decided based on a lot of my data and earlier on in the sports card strategy show episode that this is airing on, I mentioned what worked best and what didn't work as well in 2024. And one thing unequivocally that worked better is raw to grade. Raw to grade in 2024 for me worked far better than buying an already graded card that I felt was at its low with a selling marker in mind. Even with the selling marker in mind, the profit margin just wasn't there as much as it was for the raw to grade. And so I challenged myself to look at players that I like. moving forward that I bought already graded cards of, but do it in a raw to grade moving forward. And one player that I talked the most about in 2024 and probably at the end of 2023 is Shadur Sanders. Shadur Sanders, the quarterback currently for the Colorado Buffaloes, son of Deion Sanders, one of the more polarizing figures right now in the hobby. Most people either really love Shadur or they really just don't believe in Shadur at all and don't wanna touch his cards. His cards are very expensive. So I happen to still profit, Clark, from the already graded Shadur plays, but because I profited way more from the raw to grade Shadur plays, I challenged myself, what can I do moving forward to continue to make money on Shadur? So my entire eBay watch list and bids right now essentially consist of Shadur Sanders raw cards. Some of them are as low as the Bowman U tops now released from 2023, where he's wearing these crazy looking sunglasses on the sideline. Those go for about maybe three or $4. They're only selling in PSA 10 right now for around $30, but I believe that as the NFL draft in 2025 gets closer, the average sale price of that PSA 10 will go up enough to where it'll make sense from a raw to grade standpoint. So that's on the low end, where I'm buying a bunch of those, getting them graded. And I think that's a high ceiling, high floor, actually low ceiling, high floor play. Like I think it's very safe with a low ceiling. And then on the other side, going in and getting his refractor Bowman Chrome U first auto out of 499 raw right now is the card on the higher end that makes the most sense based on the data to go raw to grade. Because if you can get that for between $150 and $200 US, that's gonna have much more of say four to $500 upside in a PSA 10 during April's NFL draft, April, May. Also that card has a pretty long runway. I think all cards, what I've learned over the last year with these college quarterback cards is that all of them have a pretty long runway. We're still seeing Drake May cards right now after his first NFL start in his North Carolina uniform from the Bowman release sell pretty well. So I think Shadour will continue to have multiple selling markers. He continues to look like the real deal to me. So while I've liquidated all of my Shadour cards that I've purchased last year for a small profit overall, I'm now thinking how do I take what I've learned over the last year and try to make money next year on Shadour Sanders card. So that's what my eBay watch list looks like right now. The other thing I'm doing, curious to your quick take on this if you have time too, is we created at nooffseason.com, we have a formula for our premium members. There's raw to grade, there's already graded, but we added graded to raw because there's so many cards that are selling for more raw than they are in say SGC95, SGC9, PSA9, and those grades to where you could crack and sell raw. So the other part of my watch list right now, I haven't purchased a card yet that I'm going to for sure crack and sell raw. But I'm looking, I'm having fun looking on eBay for cards that are maybe SGC85s, SGC9s, cards like that that are selling for more raw than they are in those slabs because it would at least give me the opportunity to maybe buy one for a low cost and then determine do I wanna crack it out and sell it raw later, put it in a nice one touch, take good photos of it, list it on eBay. So that's the other thing I've got going on my watch list. Nice. No, I appreciate that. You know, a lot of our listeners, because we're Canadian, we don't talk a lot of college football and football in general. So I'm sure many of our American listeners, which is like 90% will appreciate how you explained your investment strategy, especially with Shidor Sanders. So, but to answer your question about the raw, that's an interesting play. I never, I haven't thought about that in a long time, but I feel like the reason why many collectors or yeah, collectors would buy raw is the hope that they can grade it and then substantially boost its value. So for me, if I see a raw card, I'm like hoping for at least a PSA nine, you gotta do your homework. How much would that value go for? And then, you know, there might be a play for a lot of people there. So that's, yeah, that's interesting. And then there are some, cause I know, and this might be a good segue in a bit, other collectors on Instagram, where I see a lot of them just wanting to just crack it out of their slabs and then just hold their PC in a nice raw one touch case. So there seems to be more collectors doing that. So there could be a play there increasingly to crack out of the slab and sell it raw. So yeah, that's my initial thoughts. Yeah, those are good, good points. I see a lot of that too. I've had a lot of firsthand experience with collectors just like asking me, will you crack this for me? Cause I just don't want it in this slab, yeah, I kind of forget about that. And I know a lot of people, I'd be interested to see what the audience thinks about the idea of buying a slab, cracking it and then selling it raw. I know it brings up a lot of emotions for people, but I've seen both sides of it. Yeah, so I emailed you a link to a couple of Instagram posts of a content creator that I have a ton of respect for. In fact, pretty good friends with him, Jeff Wilson and Sports Card Investor. I'm fortunate enough to have built a relationship with everybody there and struck up a friendship with Jeff and everything like that. And so I think this is the difference between me and other content creators. And I just respect you and feel like I want your take on this in front of everyone. So like for me, when I see a post like the one that Jeff and Sports Card Investor made where they specifically went and filmed Nat Turner's collection of precious metal gems cards in PSA slabs. I look at that post and I have zero, not even zero interest in it, but like negative interest in it. As much as I love Jeff and Sports Card Investor, like I see those kinds of posts and I am just like, who cares about this? To me, it's just, it's not helpful. There's no value in it. Maybe it's because I already knew Nat Turner collected these. I've already heard Nat Turner on other people's podcasts talk about that he collects these. Maybe it's because I'm not a billionaire like him and I can't go out and afford all these PMGs. Maybe I'm a little bit bitter about that. I don't know subconsciously, but I look at a post like this and I'm kind of like, okay, so there's 1% of people that can go out and afford a collection like this. And then you have a content creator going out and just basically showcasing it in front of everyone. It just kind of rubs me the wrong way also, I think, to the point where I'm like, do we really have to be posting this kind of content all the time and who really cares? And like, then I start to question myself, like, am I an ASS? Like, I mean, I don't want to curse on your show. I'll curse on my show, but like, am I a jerk? I mean, like, why do I look at posts like this and I get so, like, who cares about this? Now, I don't reply. I don't do anything negative. I just kind of like, this is, people can do this. There's nothing wrong. Like, of course, obviously Jeff posted because people like it, but that's when I feel like an outsider. Like, why do people like it and I don't, Clark? Help me out here. No, I like this. I like this. Yeah, I'll play devil's advocate. Personally, I don't care as much about it as well, because PMD is not my thing, but I do understand the value in it. And the way I would see it is that, for many, it's aspirational, right? You see these high-end collectors and you're like, okay, maybe one day I can work up to having an amazing collection like this. Like, if you go to a sports card show, how many people stop at those booths that have million dollar cards? You're like, wow, this is ridiculous. I'm never gonna be able to afford it, but I'll gander and take a look at what these cards look like in person. And I think with the, you know, how everything's digital now, it's just another way of bringing it closer to the masses, so to speak. And for sure, not everyone's gonna care about it. You're not the only one that's gonna, you know, just even communicating how you feel about it, you're definitely not the only one that feels that way either, right? And I know Jeff Wilson has his distractors, and we've been on the record on the podcast. We respect Jeff Wilson, too. I think what he's doing for the hobby is a good thing. And, you know, he brings a lot to the community, in my opinion. But I, you know, I look at that post and it's an amazing collection. And, you know, yours might, you know, you might not aspire exactly to want green PMGs, you know, the complete set, but that's something that you could possibly work towards. And, you know, doing the plays that we talked about earlier in the show, building up to where you can get those high-end cards, and maybe even start to set collect, and, you know, and then you might have your own collection where you kind of show it off to people that would appreciate looking at nice cards. So that's how I see it. I don't mind it, to tell you the truth. You know, it's one of those things I'll stop for a second and I'll keep scrolling, but at the same time, I see why it can grab attention, right? And, you know, if you go onto my five card guys, Instagram page, most of those cards are an auction. They're worth at least a thousand, most maybe two or 3,000, yet it gets a lot of attention because people are, you know, people like seeing nice looking cards. I don't know if it's innate within collectors to see cards that most of us can't, you know, just buy on any given day, but it's something, you know, you might put on your watch list, you know, and maybe one day it will be attainable. So I think that's kind of my argument for these kinds of posts. It's just aspirational in nature. Yeah, I think that that is totally fair, and I think it's like human nature is, and the nature of social media, I mean, Jeff is a marketing genius, and he understands that the human nature, especially with social media, is to bring in eyeballs through like high dollar, really, really rare types of situations, and he's just as good as anybody is at doing that, and whenever I post, like I've started to do more Instagram reels, and what I see in the numbers is that whenever I actually show cash in the reel, that does like typically five to 10 times better from a view count than when it's, when it doesn't like actually show cash, and so I think like people just want to see these higher dollar rare situations, and I guess, I've already made this clear, but I'll just say like for me, I just don't, I'm not that guy, like I really don't care, and it's almost gotten to the point where I am unsure what to do when I'm on Instagram, because it feels like it's so much driven by, hey, look at this card, look at this big poll, hey, look at this million dollar card, and I just, I want to try to take it, like I like that you think it's aspirational, I think one thing I'd like to try to do is understand like what types of collections could people put together that are cool, but can they really aspire to do something like that? Like I think it's aspirational, and it's motivational to maybe build their own version of a collection, but I would say it's not possible for any of us to really go out and do what Nat Turner's done with the PMG collection. I mean, just like it's really not possible for people to go out there and like actually get the real rainbow, because you have to have the one of one, so you know like, I guess, this is me coming at it from a standpoint of it's great entry level content for people to get into the hobby to see, yes, there's a lot of interesting things happening here from a high dollar standpoint, which I think is what's gonna get everybody in, but then once they're in, they're gonna get slapped in the face with the fact that they really can't go out and build a collection like this, like Nat Turner has, but what kind of collection can they build? What can they do? And I think people like you and I can kind of show them the way, right? So I think that's, I want these posts and our discussions around these posts to mean something other than me just bitching about them. But I do think it's also a good opportunity for me to vent a little bit to someone like you and go, hey, like, what's the point? Like, what's the point other than growing his social media following, you know? I think you kind of already mentioned one of the points is, sure, I agree with you 100%. You and I, we won't be able to get that full, complete PMG set. You know, it's just not within our budget, but, you know, I have a full set of the top's Home Field Advantage. People on my podcast, Cards to the Moon, will know that I collected it because it's, you know, on average, $10 to $15 card, but it's nice and shiny. There's, you know, it's easily collectible. There's 30 cards in the set and, you know, it's kind of like, okay, I can't do the million dollar version, but I could do the $100 version of this and that's something, you know, I might have gotten an idea from. in terms of set collecting or subset collecting by seeing others kind of do the same. And it doesn't have to be exactly apples to apples, orange to orange, but you do your own version of it within your own budget, right? And the other thing I was thinking about too is some people might just really like the PMG and for them, they know it's not realistic to do a set, but maybe it is realistic just to get one card of their favorite player in a PMG. And that's something, you know, that's doable for more people than what Nat Turner's doing. So I think at the end of the day, it can give you additional ideas of what you wanna collect based on other people's collections. There's a possibility for that too. I think you win, Clark. I think you win that one. I think you win that segment of why should we care about this? This is a good segment. You know, as we do more of these, we might wanna get a third person like an arbiter to decide who wins. We need John or Hyung or somebody, we need, or maybe, I mean, you're like Denny? Denny cards? Maybe. Do we need Denny? I mean, that's a whole other topic of social media content. I don't know if you're kidding. Yeah, there's some controversy there. But yeah, we need somebody to come in and tee up the topic for us and then have you and I give our takes on it. I like it. We can discuss more. All right, well, I know we've gone over time and it's easy to do because I talk too much and you bring too many good points to the table. It was fun as usual. Thank you for your time, brother. Likewise, can't wait to connect again soon. Hey, thanks for listening to Cards to the Moon. We'd really appreciate you subscribing to our podcast wherever you listen to your podcasts. And you can also connect with each of us on Instagram at 5cardguys, or you can follow Hyung at Integrity Sports Cards, or John at TradeUatRecess. You can also check us out at 5cardguys.com. Thanks again, and hope to connect soon.