Announcing Weekly Cards To The Moon Newsletter; Plus Discussing Quarterbacks (When To Bail and Sell For A Loss) and Pitchers (Are They Investable In Light of Paul Skenes) with Paul Hickey

You're listening to Cards to the Moon, a podcast about trading cards from both a collector and investor perspective. We hope you'll stick around for the ride as we take a deep dive into the state of the hobby, share some hot takes, hopefully some useful advice and fun stories along the way. Hey welcome to another Friday edition of Cards to the Moon, my name is Clark from 5cardguys.com and 5cardguys on Instagram. I'm doing this intro solo today, but we'll have the whole crew back for next Tuesday's episode. Okay, as we've done the last few Friday episodes now, we'll play another joint pod episode I did with Paul Hickey of the Sports Card Strategy Show in just a bit, but I'm glad that some of you have already reached out saying they've enjoyed this collaboration. It's been a lot of fun for me. And you know, I'm hoping to do more collabs in 2025 as we're quickly approaching the new year. And as we wrap up 2024, heading into the final month of the year, I just want to give you guys, the listeners, a shout out for tuning in week after week. You know, when I look at some of the show analytics, it's pretty incredible that we get thousands of plays across all platforms for each episode. And I know that encourages me and Hyung and John as well to keep putting out weekly episodes and just keep talking about the hobby that we all love. So thanks again guys. And one more thing, I was initially going to start this in the new year, but the more I think about it, I think that the Cards to the Moon newsletter that we put out monthly for free, I'm going to commit starting in December to putting out this newsletter weekly. So if you're interested in keeping touch that way, just go to fivecardguys.substack.com and you can sign up there. I'll put the links in the show notes below. And I'm also hoping to do more giveaways in 2025 and even some exclusively for our newsletter subscribers. All right, without further ado, here's the episode I did with Paul Hickey. We talk football cards and more specifically, when to bail on certain QBs, as well as discuss whether pitchers deserve more hobby love in light of the attention that Paul Skeens is bringing to that position recently. Okay, enjoy and I'll see you guys on Tuesday. All right, we're back with another joint collaboration, joint podcast with myself, Clark from Five Card Guys and the Cards to the Moon podcast. And of course, we have Paul Hickey here, nooffseason.com and the Sports Card Strategy Show. So good to see you again, Paul. Good to see you too. Ready to go? Ready to go, man. Let's talk some sports cards. I'm excited. Yeah. And you know what? We get a lot of positive feedback on our interaction. So I'm always looking forward every two weeks to see what we're going to talk about. And I kind of teased this last episode, but we kind of ran out of time. But I'm going to just start right off the bat. And it's more of a football card question because, well, a lot of us Canadians, we don't really pay attention to football. Actually, the Toronto Argonauts just won the Grey Cup and I didn't even know that. So they're our hometown team. So that's how much we pay attention to football. But I am on a fantasy football team, so I do pay attention to the NFL. And I know you collect football cards or you buy football cards. And for the benefit of a lot of our Canadian listeners from the Sports Card Strategy Show and even Cards to the Moon, I had a specific question. And QBs get all the attention. And we're going to just stick with QBs. So my question is, at the beginning of the season, we might be high on certain QBs. And we might buy their cards in the offseason. But now that we're more than halfway through the season, we see a lot of busts. And I'm wondering, at what point do you bail on a QB and sell for a loss? And I'm thinking of guys like Bryce Young, Trevor Lawrence even, Dak Prescott, Tua. I mean, the list is pretty long this year. Or do you just hold on to them, hoping they turn things around? And Anthony Richardson's kind of a good example, because he's been really doing well the last couple weeks. Yeah, that's a great question. And certainly, you're right. There's a lot of risk with football cards. I think each sport has its own element of risk. Football's risk is injury. Injury and underperformance, because you've got an 18-week season. I've always said that I think the NFL is the best soap opera on the planet, mainly because of fantasy football. I mean, you've got all the different injury designations, and what do they mean, and you've got the press conferences and the news, and everybody, really for the last almost 30 years, has been scouring to get all the information they can get for their fantasy leagues, which makes it super intriguing. And then on top of that, you obviously have the real football on the field, which is a great product. Injuries happen all the time. We've always seen players sometimes go down in the preseason, unfortunately, that are the stars. Sometimes you have players go down during the regular season. The other risk with NFL is just underperformance. Like, you've got, from a week-by-week basis, if a player doesn't put up the expected stats and if their team doesn't win, their card prices can definitely suffer. I think this year, though, we definitely have seen a trend where even the top players have gone down in value, and that really relates to hobby hype. And I know you guys have a phrase, hobby logic, that you use a lot, and I don't know if this qualifies as hobby logic, but there's something that happens with sports card values in the NFL offseason. The trend typically is that they go up from the end of the Super Bowl all the way through June. They dip down a bit in June, making June a nice little buying pocket for a lot of guys. Because there's really nothing in the news cycle in June for the NFL. It's really like one of the only months, it's like one of maybe two months, that there's nothing in the news cycle for the NFL. And then back in July, when the teams kind of hit training camp again and the National happens, those two things start to mix together of like, okay, card prices start to go on the rise. So I would typically tell people at the Sports Card Strategy Show and at knowoffseason.com, liquidate all your NFL cards in August so that you can mitigate the risk of the injuries and the underperformance. But now getting to your question, the way that I would answer that, because certainly there's people that hold their cards into the season. Sometimes just because things happen so fast in people's lives, they might mean to liquidate something in August, but maybe they're like, hey, I didn't get a chance to. Now all of a sudden, two weeks later, the card's worth literally 20% of what it was worth two weeks before that. So the real answer is, it depends on the player's resume. And so not just their resume in real life, but also like their hobby hype, hobby logic resume. In last episode that we did together, you also mentioned like Derek Carr and Aaron Rodgers. I mean, on top of a lot of the names that you've already mentioned, I think CJ Stroud and Jordan Love are two guys that have gone down quite a bit. And so when you look at Jordan Love's prism, let's look at his prism silver PSA 10. That was easily a $1,200 card in August, and that's a $725 card right now. And the Packers are in the playoff picture. So that doesn't make a whole lot of sense to somebody new to the hobby. If that's a card that you have, or even his base prism PSA 10, which is down significantly from where it was at the beginning of the season, his optic hollow PSA 10 is literally half the price. It's $154. It was easily close to a $300 card back in the off season. You look at his resume. So you look at, okay, so he's got some pretty high draft capital. He just signed. I believe he's the highest paid quarterback in the NFL right now, believe it or not. I think him and Tua actually are from like a guaranteed money standpoint. That'll change obviously in the off season, but for now, I mean, so you start to look at it and then you look at how did he play last year in his first season as a starter? Well, he got red hot, like right around this time last year. And he's always had a lot of hobby hype. So to me, to answer your question, Jordan Love would be a guy that I would consider holding onto. If you're 50% down on him, his trajectory is that he could make it into the playoffs. He's young. He still has everything happening for him. And there's a reason why he went down. He was injured in the first week, week one. And so, okay, now I would also put CJ Stroud in that hold category because, and this is kind of shocking. I think I know some of the reason why this has happened in CJ Stroud's market. I think there are two main reasons. His Prism Silver PSA 10 rookie from 2023 is right now a $435 card. That also was over $1,000. So now you're looking at like less than 40% value on that card from August, July. What's interesting about CJ Stroud to me are two things. Number one, when the abomination that is Topps Composite Football was released, that skyrocketed CJ Stroud's amount of rookie cards to literally over 20,000 different rookie cards. Oh, that's a lot. So from where they were, I actually think, I don't know for sure, but I think he was easily under 4,000, which is, it was going to, without Topps Composite, he was still going to end up having 7,000 rookie cards, but over 20,000 combined with the fact that even though the Texans are a very good team this year, he's not playing well. He's clearly, he's clearly going through like a sophomore slump of sorts in the stat column, but like Jordan Love, he's still on a likely a playoff bound team. There's no reason why he shouldn't come back and have some spike weeks. And I don't know that one or two spike weeks will get him back to where he was in the valuations of his cards, but I do believe over the longterm he will get there. And so he would, he and Jordan Love to me would be, would be holds. Now you mentioned Anthony Richardson. That's, that's an interesting one. Let's come back to him real quick. I want to go to Bryce Young. Bryce Young and Will Levis were hot. They would have been great players to sell during July and August as well. Many of us, including myself, I held a couple of each because I thought, well, Hey, like what if there is a spike week? Well, obviously the opposite happened with both of those guys. While people like Baker Mayfield and Jared Goff have like come back from, you know, irrelevant, you know, security, insecurity, that's a great word to now all of a sudden being actually at the position. Yeah. I don't, I don't necessarily see Bryce Young and especially not will love us ever really having that kind of success. So to me, I think like we all have to do in cards sometimes just cut your losses. You know, I think I just don't know now, Anthony Richardson, I probably would have been very worried about him had he not had the week that he just had this past weekend. Now all of a sudden it's a good example of what can happen. Like he comes out, he beats the jets in a game winning touchdown, rushing touchdown in the fourth quarter in New York has in New Jersey has two rushing touchdowns throws for almost 280 yards in a, in a passing touchdown. Now it's like, okay, this is the guy that we all thought he was. The problem with him is going to be inconsistency. He's going to have some really bad weeks. He's probably going to get injured again. So I would say depending on how far you are into Anthony Richardson cards now might be a good time to sell if you're not, if you're not too far underwater with him, or it might be a good opportunity to at least liquidate some of your Anthony Richardson portfolio to mitigate some risk that it could go back down again. Cause he is up to your point in most of his top cards are up at least a 38 or more percent over the last 14 days. In his like top graded, his top PSA 10s, basically you're all up 38 or more percent, including his prism silver PSA 10 is optic hollow PSA 10. So you can get some of your money back. He's a tough one though. He could be one where maybe, maybe you buy him on the way up potentially because his prism silver was a $500 card in August. It's sold actually for almost $600 a couple of times. It's only $173 right now. That may not be a good little, you know, that could be a good little quick flip to get that under 200. Maybe it goes up to three, three 50 and then you sell it low risk move there. If you're looking to maybe kind of go the opposite way, go against the grain. But I think with guys like some of the other guys that you talked about the last time we talked Aaron Rogers, Derek Carr, and let me know if you have anybody else on your list. To me, they, they fall into a different category. They have obviously older cards. You know, car I think is from 2014 if I'm not mistaken. I could be wrong on that. And Rogers is obviously from 2005 I believe his rookie cards. So like. I what I've seen even with Jared Goff, who's actually only he's from 2016. So it's not that old. He's got an updated design optic rated rookie and I mean he is he is Contenders rookie ticket autos that look like the more modern ones that have come out in the last few years so even Jared Goff's cards from 2016 take quite a bit of spike weeks in a row For them to go back up in value let alone going all the way back to 2005 with Aaron Rodgers and 2014 I think with Derek Carr, so to me like you you probably aren't gonna see Aaron Rodgers cards Even though he might be considered one of the top quarterbacks of all time when it's all said and done Unfortunately, I don't like the guy if anyone's ever listened to the sports card strategy show. They know that But Derek Carr too, I just don't see them I think you probably just need to to get rid of those guys because I think they're on their way down. Hmm. Okay. No, that's That's a great lesson. And you know what the key things I got or I'm gonna buy Jordan Love and CJ Stroud. It was like a good Right now man, I think I mean and so with Trevor Lauren, you know Trevor Lawrence is another great one that you mentioned because I kind of forgot about him, right? He has so many rookie cards. Yeah, you know, he had his own set with tops before tops, you know Was even really making football cards again in 2021 and then of course panini printed the crap out of him and right and he had a lot of XRC's like leaf and pro set that a lot of Trevor Lawrence cards. Um So he's just drat. He was very very overpriced expensive to buy into has drastically underperformed Yeah, he's been given a lot of excuses. I think the hobby is pretty much over him I don't know that I would buy him and I'd and I feel bad for anyone Who's still has his cards because I don't know that there's any bouncing back from his car Very very low gem rate and the 2021 product as well Which I know sometimes can be a good thing because it creates rarity in a PSA 10 But I think in Trevor Lawrence's case, it's just like yeah, we're all SOL on that Bait and move on. Yeah, I agree I mean, I wasn't really into football cards, but the hype was unreal for Trevor Lawrence a few years ago So yeah, totally understand that. No, I appreciate that. I really want to ask you that question. So I was Yeah learned a couple valuable lessons there You had a question too about baseball. We're kind of switching sports now. Yeah, let me let me fire you a baseball question here so cuz you and your Teammates over at cards to the moon like you guys Bring a wealth of knowledge in baseball and I actually heard you and young talking about The pitchers You know, obviously there hasn't really been a big market for pitchers They haven't been investable in in recent years But I heard you guys kind of mentioning with the emergence of Paul skeins with obviously Oh, Tony Right, you know being the dual threat multi threat that he is not just not just dual threat But just you know, he can basically do it all and then you've got guys like, you know, Yamamoto coming over There was some hype around him. Yeah, Roki Sasaki could be like the next guy That falls into the Oh Tony and Yamamoto category coming over from Japan And then even Kumar rocker sort of comps to a guy that could be an investable pitcher so my question for you is like has Paul skeins and his success changed the landscape of Pitchers potentially becoming investable It's he's obviously not the first pitcher to be taken number one overall in the draft and have hype around him But he has been really the first pitcher that the hobby has gravitated to as an investable pitcher So, what do you think in terms of what the market looks like for pitchers moving forward? Great question. And this is I think it was on our last podcast episode. We have a friend. His name is Chris Beck He's the host of the Apple taco Podcast show and and he was a professional pitcher. He was drafted by the Giants. I believe San Francisco Giants and Last time he was on our podcast. We were making fun of him for saying pictures You just can't invest in pictures and and it's just a risk and it's like, you know Injury risk is higher with pitchers because they obviously throw the ball a ton but honestly, I think Paul skeins has definitely changed the narrative like he's I think one of the Reasons why Paul skeins has been able to really change the narrative is his sheer dominance and and and doing it in his rookie season Just it's it's been incredible to watch and at the same time for me personally young might feel a little differently Because I feel like he's more all-in on skeins and and just like really Looking again at pitchers as a investable asset in the in the hobby But I'm still you know tiptoeing closer to the line of whether yeah, you know Like skeins would be a good guy to definitely invest in but but you know Like like and he just won Rookie of the Year yesterday as of this recording, right? So the hype is building on Paul skeins and you know, everyone's looking forward to seeing him in year two So yeah, and that's certainly brought attention and you mentioned some good names like Yamamoto Of course, he just won the World Series as well. So he's building his resume and Roki, of course, it's gonna be I Sadly, he probably will play for the Dodgers too. So that's gonna be a championship caliber team So yeah, there's something real to it But at the same time I am personally just you know, other than I feel like those are the exceptions still That's my personal point of view. I think just the fact that pitchers are pitching are throwing a lot harder and I think that's still an issue and I think it's being you know it'll be more of an issue when the season begins and you see start is just you start to see like More pitchers on the injury list, you know, and and that's gonna be a reoccurring theme I think so So yeah, I just tread with caution. That's my word of advice in terms of pitches and really the Longer, you know the days of pitchers pitching 200 plus innings They used to be given for like top tier pitchers not nowadays that's that's not even a given right and and The ones that you can really invest in are the ones we keep repeating on Cards to the Moon is Clayton Kershaw, Justin Verlander and Max Scherzer of the Scher Hall of Famers You know, they already got the resume that everything that they're doing now is this bonus, right? But these newer pitchers coming up sure they could maybe pitch 200 innings this season But how many consecutive seasons can they do that? It's really hard to do that these days just by how hard they're throwing and you know The mechanics and and even if they're not throwing that many innings even if the coaches are maybe a little more progressive and they want to give them rest and and you know Maybe only have them pitch six innings max Then that also limits their upside because they're only pitching 150 innings a season and they're getting great starts out of them, but they're definitely not getting the strikeouts You know the counting stats that used to matter a lot for pitchers, you know And the three thousand winds are hard to come by as well because it's so random to you know If you're pitching less a lot can happen during the middle and late innings that get you out of that wind column, you know So all these things I think contribute in the long term in terms of like which pitchers will actually be Really great investments because a lot of them will have I believe Sadly shorter careers than then what pitchers like Kershaw Verlander and Scherzer have now and So yeah, that's kind of in a nutshell, but it's exciting while last I mean short-term flips. I think Paul Skain's is worth the risk He just it's so dominant He kind of reminds me of Pedro Martinez when back in the day when you know It just seems like no one could hit his pitches and and it's so fun to watch It's it's it's you know last thing I'll say it's You know use usually watching dominant pitching is boring when you go to a baseball game It's like oh, it's a zero run score for the other team But when a pitchers dominant striking out double digits, you're like wow Okay Let's see if you could strike out number 11 and 12 when you're actually rooting for the pitcher That says something about the pitchers talent and how he's kind of a step above the rest So so skeins is kind of in its own Elite category right now, I would say yeah, that's a great breakdown I mean a lot of good stuff right in there I mean, we I think we get a lot of questions on our premium podcast and About baseball and one of them came up recently Why aren't pitchers investable and I think you just named so many good reasons why they're tricky investments and I love to proceed with caution that you're talking about because I think one of the things that happens in the Hobby is that people definitely try to find the next person which I'm a proponent of but I think there's some potential danger Doing that people are trying to find the next Kaitlyn Clark right now People are trying to find you know And so a couple follow-up questions for you on on the pitchers if you had to pick one Out of the names that we've talked about say Kumar rocker Yamamoto Suzuki Even Oh Tani coming back as a pitcher I'm curious to your take on how he's gonna do in 2025 with his card values if you had to pick or maybe it's someone I haven't mentioned if you had to pick a pitcher that you think is most likely to be done next Paul Skeens in the context of maybe not as dominant But in the context of his card values will go up in the next year Would you say I mean would you stick to your? Scherzer Verlander Kershaw three and that's it or would is there a name outside of those three that you would take a flyer on? I'm pretty conservative when it comes to pitchers. So at the the three I mentioned the the sure Hall of Famers I'm all they're always on my watch list, you know, and yeah, and you know Kershaw like He's definitely gone up. But you know, he's been injured much of last season he'll probably make it I'm thinking one more season maybe two and so he's gonna retire soon and I think he's a great buy Because his card prices have certainly come down a little bit But if I'm gonna risk And I'm gonna be honest. I don't know too much about Kumar rocker. So I can't I can't really say much on him, but Roki is definitely his prices are already trending upwards. So there's How much more can it go up? I'm not sure and he doesn't have a lot of cards yet So I'm sure by the time his cards come out. I feel like the hype is gonna already be there So you're buying a little bit high Yamamoto, I think This process of elimination Yamamoto will be probably the guy because his card prices of definitely there's a there's a lot printed now Different brands and you can find one. That's probably within your budget nice on card autograph card Lower parallel number and I think Yamamoto is you seen in the world series his Stadium Club Auto I think actually is one that has sold quite a bit recently raw that seemed like it was a reasonable price and So, yeah, that's a great point about Yamamoto, I know Roki Sasaki has the NPB Top chrome from 2021. It doesn't say RC on it or anything special But it's definitely like his his I would say most liquid card. Maybe there's a rod a great play there Interesting that you say he's probably gonna go to the Dodgers That would be that I mean it seems it seems logical for sure, but that would be insane. It just absolutely insane super team obviously, I'm sort of A little bit bummed that I don't have schemes in my top five. I can't buy him in 2025 which is okay. It's okay. Like there's a purpose for that. Um But I do have Otani. So maybe there's a play there with him coming back Pitching in 2025. We'll see but Yeah, man, good good stuff on the pitchers. It sounds like Clark came from five card guys and cards to the moon podcast just basically says there is no next Paul schemes You got to go back What I go back to the to the Hall of Fame guys potentially or or stick with schemes, right? That's right Yeah, that's a viable option. Yeah, I like it. Sometimes there is no next XYZ person, it's just that but we all I mean, especially Hobbyists hobbyists want like the foregone conclusion is that there is a next person Yeah, but that's not always the case, right? Exactly. Gotta keep everything in Context and I know you I know we've only got a few minutes left here but the last thing on our potential agenda was did you have a question for me about my My five players just yes overview on that. I know and you teach this last time we were on together You said in content just to provide context that you were for 2025 looking to invest really just in these five players like focused more on the five players instead of a lot of different players and and yeah, I thought I You know, I think And you could you could please tell us for our cars to the moon listeners Who are your top five, but I really want you to explain to me Archie Manning That's the one that seems like the one odd person out of the five like the other four. I'm like, yeah, I understand totally Archie okay. Yeah, so that's my question. Okay. Sounds good. I love it. So yeah, my five are Oh Tani Um for him, I you know, I wanted I wanted to pick players that mainly Like there's gonna be no more rookie print run for so the markets established But that there's potential selling markers coming up and I think I could be wrong but I think Oh Tani coming back and pitching in 2025 and I you know Him winning the World Series took a little bit away from that Potentially happening and being like an extra I don't know that like a second World Series Necessarily would bump up his pricing and I think sometimes that can be like that can be detrimental To buy in after a players won their first championship But I do think he's not and you guys have talked about Oh Tani like just always being up and to the right So yeah, I I share a brain with you guys on that where it's like, you know I wanted kind of like a safe safer in my portfolio. So I would say that that 20% is pretty safe. I picked Michael Jordan because I wanted to go vintage. I've never really gone vintage. And I think there's a lot that I need to learn about Michael Jordan's card market. I think there's opportunities with the star cards that people don't, the market is not established for the star cards that PSA only started grading, I believe in 2023. So I think there's a lot of opportunity in Michael Jordan's card market that I've never really looked into. Plus, anytime I've ever held a Michael Jordan card, it's typically has not dipped in value, which I like. So I think Otani and Jordan are pretty safe. The other three, Victor Wim Benyama, mainly because his print run of rookie cards should be done fairly quickly. I mean, there might be some Panini high-end releases that come out, but they probably won't. They're not going to have his autos because he's obviously in tops Mercury and he's Fanatics exclusive and that's already hit the market. So I've seen his prices come down quite a bit, which I like because I believe in him as a long-term player. I believe that he's going to have a quadruple double. I believe that's going to be a significant selling marker. I think the raw to grade is going to be there with his base cards, but then also I think his prism silver right now is underpriced compared to where it'll be when he eventually makes a playoff run. I just think he's the real deal as a player. So I wanted to keep him on my list. Plus it's, I always say, buy in, don't buy into a player's rookie cards really until maybe three to six months after their last rookie card has come out, because that's typically when you can get their true market. So the other two, Caitlin Clark, just because I believe that she's kind of an anomaly, almost like Shohei, where I just think she's going to continue to value. And then I'll get to Arch Manning here at the end, but I gave myself two hall passes because I had a lot of people reach out to me and say, you need to give yourself some kind of hall pass in case there's some kind of opportunity that comes up in the next 14 months so that you don't miss out on it. And so I disagreed, but I also kind of agreed with that thought. And what I decided to do, I didn't want to give myself that I could just buy anything based on what comes up because that actually kind of defeats the purpose of what I'm trying to do. So what I decided to do is allow myself to buy into two individual additional players, but only for their tops now cards, maybe Panini instant, but probably only tops now. And that's Cooper Flagg, who is going to be the number one overall pick in the NBA draft and Shadur Sanders, who is just going to generate a lot of hype potentially with his NFL draft coming up. Now Arch Manning. So Arch is the nephew of Cooper. So sorry, Arch, let me say that again. Arch is the son of Cooper. He's the nephew of Peyton and Eli. And he was the number one overall high school player coming out in his class a couple of years ago. My thought with Arch is, believe it or not, he actually has had cards out for almost the last two years. So he actually has a pretty established market as well, almost like Wen Minyama. And on top of that, anytime he hits the field, which he's barely done, it's been Arch madness. We've coined it Arch madness strategy show. And so I want in on more Arch madness. And I think when it's going to happen is what I want to happen is I want Quinn yours to finish out the season as the starter to stay healthy and for Texas to do whatever they do in the college football playoffs kind of doesn't matter. Then what I think is going to happen is Arch is going to be the starter going in the next year. Texas is going to be ranked in the top three or four based on the fact that they're Texas. And because his last name is Manning and he plays quarterback for a top five college team, when he is named the starter going into 2025, it's going to actually coming for full circle on us, Clark, it's going to be sell his, you know, what the season starts. There you go. There it is. So hopefully it's a, it is a quick flip on Arch Manning to answer your question. Makes sense. No, that's a good list. I enjoyed that episode. If you haven't listened to it, go to that episode on sports cards strategy show. It's yeah, it's worth a listen for sure. Thanks, man. I look forward to talking to you again soon. And thanks everybody for tuning in. Hey, thanks for listening to cards to the moon. We'd really appreciate you subscribing to our podcast wherever you listen to your podcasts. And you can also connect with each of us on Instagram at five card guys, or you can follow young at integrity sports cards, or john at trade you at recess. You can also check us out at five card guys.com. Thanks again, and hope to connect soon.