Deep Dive On Gemrate Grading Data For February: Does It Spell Doom for Beckett?; Topps X Murakami Set Awesome or All Hype Like Topps Project2020; Another Fun Round Of Quiz Show

You're listening to Cards to the Moon, a podcast about trading cards from both a collector and investor perspective. We hope you'll stick around for the ride as we take a deep dive into the state of the hobby, share some hot takes, hopefully some useful advice and fun stories along the way. Hey guys, welcome back to Cards to the Moon. This is episode 276 and my name is Clark from 5cardguys.com. You can also find me on Instagram and YouTube at 5cardguys. Co-hosting with me as usual is Hyung of Integrity Sports Cards and Jon's back and you can find him at TradeU at Recess and they're both on IG as well. All right, we're getting closer and closer to opening day of the 2025 MLB season so that's exciting and I don't think we talked about this yet but the league is kicking off the season with the Tokyo series that has the Dodgers playing the Cubs in Japan on March 18 and 19. Obviously it's in part to showcase the growing Japanese talent in the league with arguably the face of baseball who is Mr. Shohei Otani. What I want to talk about off the top is what Topps and Fanatics is planning to do to commemorate this moment and how they're marketing it. We did get some recent announcements which include Topps collaborating with one of Japan's most famous artists Takashi Murakami. The first release was a 2025 Topps Series 1 Baseball Tokyo Game Exclusive set which has Murakami-designed base card variations numbered to 5 plus several additional inserts not found in the standard Series 1 release which, side note, we were just talking about this off air. We'll be breaking later tonight at our local rip session with our buddies so we'll show you whatever hits we get from that case. The second is a 25 card Topps x Murakami MLB Tokyo Series matchup set which is more aligned with the Murakami-designed merchandise release with the signature floral designs. So I don't know if you guys checked it out, it's already on the Topps website or on their social media. You can see some of the shirts and the hoodies that will be on sale I think beginning tomorrow on the Fanatics website. So yeah, question for you guys, what are your thoughts on Topps collaborating with artists to promote the hobby? Do you think it will be a success or will it be kind of hyped for the moment and fizzle out like the Project 2020 series if you remember that or the Project 70 where Topps collabed with artists and had their unique spin on their baseball card designs. So what do you think? I think both are true. I think it's going to do well just because the Los Angeles brand is so big and the way I see it is like and John was involved in the sneaker culture before but I think that's what they're doing really well is the culture. So from an apparel standpoint, from a collector's standpoint, I think the apparel they're releasing is going to be a massive hit. I think it's going to be sold out. And then to me, it goes hand in hand with what they're selling as a culture that bleeds into kind of like the niche of sports cards, right? And especially if it's branded the same LA Dodgers 2025, you got Roki, you got Yamamoto, you got Otani, you have Ishiro, you have all the Japanese culture. So for me, from a demand standpoint, I think one Fanatics is doing a fantastic job making it global. And that goes hand in hand with MLB's, I guess, future direction with baseball as well to make it a global sport. So one, I think it's going to be successful. I think it's going to be super hyped. Like you said, that comes with the territory and I mean, I'm not expecting crazy things to come out of the sports collectibles area for this but for instance, I would be interested in the set. Like normally, I would not participate in the tops now depending on like the 50-50 would have been a really good opportunity to participate in that like just stuff that makes sense from I guess a moment's perspective. But this in particular, I'm going to also be purchasing or trying to purchase apparel for instance. You know what I mean? So it's more than I think, just will this be successful from a sports card perspective. I think there's more to it where I'm even a testament, I guess, to something that I normally wouldn't be a part of. Yeah. So what I'm hearing is that you're definitely more bullish on the apparel side of things. But how about on the cards more specifically? I do think there's going to be huge demand, especially if they make chases as usual. So but with chases becomes enormous hype, right? Like we've seen these hype markets there, every crypto chart that pops looks the same, every real estate, you know, boom looks the same. There's a massive correction. And then, you know, if it has legs, it's a slow and steady growth after the crash, right? So it depends on where you want to play in the game. And some people like the volatility. I think that's going to be the number one thing with demand and supply. So right now, there's a huge amount of hype. So expect the crash. But there are, I think, rare collectibles that I think Fanatics in general is doing a good job to keep it exciting. Agree. What do you think, John? Yeah, I have similar opinion. In terms of the from the sports card standpoint, like long term, you know, this is definitely a little bit more niche. And it's probably geared, again, like Hyung touched on it, and we've touched on this before in previous podcasts, where Fanatics is doing a great job of merging sports cards into sports culture rather than trying to gain from the existing sports fans. I mean, sports card enthusiasts, you're trying to gain from sports fans. And I think that's what this set is about. So from that standpoint, it's amazing. I'm sure there's going to be initial hype, but like long term, this is probably more niche. I don't see this being like a, you know, if you're in this to invest in it, and then, you know, it's more for like a personal thing, and maybe unopened packs, or maybe you hit a crazy card in it, and could be a bit of an investment piece. But I don't see it, you know, being anything worthwhile for like a, like a hardcore sports card collector. But yeah, I mean, all this stuff. Yeah, I probably go on a bit of a tangent, but all this stuff that Fanatics is doing and the things that they're doing with Tops now, like this stuff is, you know, some can criticize it and say that it's, you know, a big gimmicky, but I don't know, it's all amazing. You know, like, I mean, we're about to do RIP Night tonight. And we saw like, in doing RIP Night, I'm trying to think of like something that's unopened, and I was thinking of hockey, and you're looking at SP Authentic Future Watch, right? And I'm just watching, you know, I want to really dig into whether it's worth it to get it. I mean, I'm watching videos and, you know, like Panini and Upper Deck are really, maybe Panini doesn't care because they're, they're, they're Sayonara. But like Upper Deck, for example, they're like, really, they're really missing the mark. Like the old school thinking is, how are we going to make money? And how are we going to print more boxes? Let's just make more parallels. And for Upper Deck's case, like SP Authentic is like, that is the set that merges all sports card collectors into hockey, right? Like, this is the set that people outside of hockey are going to go for. And how do they do it? They're going to make all these young kids instead of signing 999 autographs, they're going to make them sign 5000 autographs and create multiple retro future watches and sign another time rookies and, you know, and the product just ends up being this old school way of trying to make money. Whereas if you look at Topps and as much as we can criticize Fanatics and Topps, look at how quickly they shifted within one and a half years, like, you know, the Major League debut patch ideas, all these different chases, the Topps now triple auto chases like, you know, not even in just, it can be like, you know, WWE and stuff like that, like, that they really, I mean, and I'm sure you can say you can argue, oh, they have the money, they have the resources, but they shifted quickly. And it's like, it looks really poor on all these other companies are still doing it the old school way of, you know, trying to make money by just printing more boxes like that's that's, you know, come on. So anyways, yeah, yeah, bigger picture, you know, venting discussion, like whatever Topps is doing, even if it is these collabs, and some people might criticize, I'm all for it. Because as long as it's different than the way business has been done in the past, I'm generally for it. Yeah, no, I agree. And to your point, I feel like what Fanatics is doing well is that they're trying to grow the fan base by catering to people outside the sports card community, right, that might be interested in sports cards in the future with these collaborations. And they're also giving new chase cards, new chase sets for people that are currently in it. So I agree with you there. And that gave me an idea for future episode, well, we can talk about like all the ways we can improve Upper Deck if we owned it, let's like kind of put our, you know, creative imaginations together. And then I'm sure we could come up with a bunch of great ideas. And then yeah, that'll be a, I think that'll be a fun episode. Couple things in mind for me, one argument against whether the sports cards collaboration side of things will be a success is we've already have like these Japanese dual autograph cards from previous Topps sets. So it's nothing really new, right? Like it'll be cool to get Ichiro, Otani, dual auto, of course, but it's not novel, you know, like we've seen it in previous sets or other Japanese players, Darvish and, you know, Ichiro. So that's been done. But an argument for the popularity and maybe even this set becoming worth something in the future is that the Japanese sports card and sports baseball in particular fan base is growing, right? So one of the things that I read in the athletic article where I got a lot of this information is that Otani and the Dodgers beating the New York Yankees in the World Series last year set viewership records in Japan, even though the games aired in the morning there. So like Otani is definitely, yeah, a big presence in Japan culture right now. His merchandise, Otani's merchandise has made up a staggering 57% of Fnatic's total MLB sales in Japan over the last five years, right? Their Dodgers merchandise sales in Japan have increased 2000% year over year, right? And this is, I don't know if you remember, Hyung, remember when we're hoping that Otani will come to the Jays, we're like, pay him whatever you want, you'll get the money back right away. 100%, always. You have the whole market, Japanese market, that's willing to pay top dollars, you know? Imagine if that happened, you would go to Japan, you're going to see a lot of Blue Jays uniforms if Otani had come to the Jays, right? And the last point was that they said Topps says it expects a 10 times increase in sales and collectors in Japan over the next five years. The last question I want to kind of present to you guys is, one of the things that's up in the air in terms of whether that can happen, this tremendous growth in Japan, is whether Otani himself can sustain it, do you know what I mean? Right now, it's just Otani wave, but there's questions of if you really want to increase the number of sales and collectors in Japan, it's going to have to be more than Otani at some point. Do you think that's the case? I think so, 100%. I think this is just a pathway that merges that global baseball with MLB, you know? And we're seeing it because if MLB wants to be defined as the best organization in the world, you need to have a global expansion where you're proven because what's happening from a WBC and the Premier 12 standpoint is if you're losing that from the part of the world where either Latin America is dominating or Asia is dominating and US is not that front runner anymore, there's a huge threat to MLB in general, in my opinion. So the way you lock that in is you go global and guys like Otani, like I said, back in 2012 when Otani signed, the talks were that it's unheard of that someone would kind of from Japan would commit to basically MLB because it was like, what are we doing to Japan's mindset was what are we doing to the future? What generations? What are we telling them in terms of where the best baseball is? We believe that Japan has the best baseball, right? So seeing the transition from that to now, it's a pathway that Otani kind of led. I think it's going to bring so much more opportunity. It's going to have kids wishing that they're going to be the next Otani. You already see it with Yamamoto and Sasaki. These are the best arms in Japan, representing Japan on a global scale in the best league in the world. So for me, it's more than just Otani. This is a bleed into the global market where now it's like, who's the best country? And it's not about where the best country is because we have tournaments to kind of like compete for that. But in general, I think. think the market is becoming a global market, which is positive for everybody. If I'm a collector, now my Shohei cards are worth way more if I if I'm, you know, after Yamamoto, or if I've, you know, Roki Sasaki cards, it's like those are more desirable in a different market, try selling Vladimir Guerrero in Japan, probably not going to sell or nor will it affect his prices. But someone like Otani, you have a huge global market, no different than like a Messi or Ronaldo, but it's really amplified from, like, from a Japanese perspective, right? Yeah, yeah, I can see that has to definitely go beyond Otani, which makes me think, are we headed to a fanatics tops, collab with Pokemon? Oh, you know, whether it's like, like, paste it, insert, or it's Pokemon cards with sports athletes in Pokemon style. I don't know that that I think that stuff would go crazy. Who manufactures Pokemon cards? Good question. Or who's the license? Or like, how does it work? Like, is it Pokemon in-house? I feel like it is. I think this question. All right, we'll ask him during RIP night. Just if he knows the answer. But yeah, that would be insane if that collaboration happened. But yeah, and kind of, to be fair, tops, they're planning to release more Japanese specific products, including the MPB, their country's baseball league cards, which already exists, but they're, they're continuing that set. There's J league soccer league, and another Japanese market specific MLB product with Otani. So they're kind of doing both Otani specific stuff, but also promoting the Japanese baseball league as well. And I think I think just in general, it will do well in Japan, like card collecting, just card collecting in general, because they are aware of baseball. But then to bring up john's point, like Pokemon is such a big cultural thing. And if you look at what, what's a reputable brand in Japan from a sports collecting, or sorry, a collecting standpoint would be the PSA brand, for instance, people see Pokemon and PSA slabs. So I think it's a really easy crossover for people to buy into baseball, because from a branding standpoint, it's nothing new, they see it in Pokemon. So they see PSA 10 slabs or PSA nine slabs in baseball slabs, it becomes kind of like secondary buy in for them, you know, just because of the the co branding of what they're used to from a Pokemon standpoint. Yeah. And we already talked about this in a previous pod. But that's why PSA is expanding their operations in Japan makes total sense from a business standpoint. All right, exciting stuff. And I'm with you. I'm on I'm gonna be online trying to buy a shirt tomorrow. Yeah, hopefully. I think it's gonna sell out quick, though. Me too. Me too. All right, let's move on to hobby headlines. So it's another new month, which means gem rate.com just released the latest data for the previous month, February. And so I thought we could see some of the key findings, we could dig deeper into them and discuss what we think about some of the current trends that we're seeing. Alright, so first, overall grading activities up 5% in February compared to January, and up 20% year over year. These numbers for February actually set a new record for grading activity with about 1.93 million cards graded. And that surpasses the previous high set in October 2024 of last year, which was 1.87 million. All right. The breakdown between grading companies for this past month is as follows. PSA they graded 1.44 million cards, which is up 17% year over year. CGC, they graded 287,000 cards, and they're up 75% year over year. SGC graded 146,000 cards, and they're year over year exactly the same 0%. And then Beckett graded 53,000 cards, and they're down 19% year over year, the only grading company that's seen significant decrease. Now, before I go on to share which athletes were graded most often at PSA last month, what do you guys think of the grading numbers I just shared with you guys and, and you know, just the fact that we're experiencing these record highs right now, in terms of the number of cards being graded. I think two important factors like based on the numbers you kind of shared is one, the market is expanding. So it's, it's, it's, it's, I think, proof that the market's growing in general, sports card collecting, more people are submitting. So that's a healthy trend, as well as market share. The second thing mark Beckett and SGC losing, you know, a lot of shares, you know, PSA probably taking those shares because of resale value or whatever it is. I think those are the two major factors of kind of like the numbers that you possess. And then the short term from January to February, I think that's a lot has to do with spring training hype. Obviously, more people are submitting baseball right now before the season starts. So I think you're going to see a little bit of that the CGC graded cards that the 75% or year year over year, I think that that number is massive, but that's just probably the, the Pokemon CG. Yeah, kind of like the hype over the past year. And a lot more people are submitting. So I mean, this is really good data, because it's it, to me, it paints a clear picture of what's actually going on. So you see a market, market increase, as well as, you know, just seasonal increases based on where you are. But it looks like Beckett and SGC has lost a lot of market share. That's basically gone to CGC and PSA. Yeah, I mean, I think we, most of us know, and I think I heard it somewhere that most of us, a lot of this is influenced by the surge in Pokemon, right? And the last little bit. And it makes sense, because CGC does have a bit of a footprint in Pokemon. So then for that, for their numbers to be doing pretty decent year over year, as compared to the other all, you know, alternate brands, it makes sense. It just now you really wonder where PSA is just continuing their stranglehold, right? Like, if you don't like PSA, I think a lot of people actually have been using CGC, maybe even in sports cards. But SGC and Beckett, my goodness, like, I still think from back in the day, when we chatted about this a lot, like, I really thought it was kind of a mistake for SGC to kind of take that discount route. Like it really made their brand look like a discount brand, you know, and yeah, kind of cheap. So now you've now that brand sort of image has has prepped into consumers minds. And at this point, if you're going to spend 2025 30 bucks for grading, you know, even if you thought you can get an SGC nine, five or 10 over a PSA, not you're still, everyone's gonna submit to PSA. So I don't even know where I should see him back Beckett. Somebody's got to save him from the grave at this point. Because they're like, they're, they're halfway down. I don't think that necessarily is a bad move for it for PSA to make SGC kind of like a lower tier brand. Because if you think about it, if you're trying to get a marketplace, you know, people don't want to submit at PSA prices because they're expensive to upcharge. They're still capturing the marketplace of all graders, let's just say all graders are your potential. So for me, it's like, would, would it be strategic to kind of get both markets instead of competing markets? Right? And because then it will, it will like tell people like, hey, PSA is lower value, man, they don't, they don't hold value in their slabs. I'm going to go PSA, it makes me make a decision not like, Oh, should I go PSA or SGC? It's like, it's a clear distinction. But for from a PSA and collector standpoint, it's still benefiting both companies at the end of the day, because you're getting the guys that grade at the $10. And maybe and john, I remember like, looking at this data, too. And I'm saying last year, SGC did that $9 special, maybe it's something that they do every year. You know what I mean? Just a basic grading. It's like nine bucks a slab. It's not PSA, resale values won't reach PSA levels. Some people may pay for particular cards. But I think it's not necessarily a bad thing from a business like collector standpoint, where they're now defining two markets. And their whole idea was PSA is the top PSA is number one, there is not. So if you're PSA, what would you do, you would buy a company like SGC to prove that you're number one, but still capitalize on the marketplace. Yeah, definitely a smart business move by PSA at the time when they acquired SGC or collectors holdings. And because they are under the same collectors umbrella, I think what john mentioned makes total sense keeping SGC as their kind of discount brand. Yeah, although you know, that wasn't the original purpose of SGC. And maybe even like to add to that, SGC is still known for their vintage card grading, right? So maybe that's where I was going to go. Yeah, right. Yeah, maybe specialize in that. Like, I don't know how you differentiate or make it better. But you have you have a division called SGC vintage. Yeah, I mean, yes. You make the slabs look nicer, specifically just for vintage cards. Nailed it. Yeah, that's exactly you stole the words out of my mouth. I think I just you know, like, if SGC was seven bucks to grade, the three of us here, I don't even think we would still do that. We would still pay $20 to go because that's just sure because that's just not their field. But if you did, like, I, that's exactly what I was thinking. Focus more on SGC vintage, get rid of the current slab, you can keep the tuxedo, whatever you want to do, but make it way more premium, the slab is way more durable, it's heavier, whatever it is, for vintage that that really appeals to like a hardcore vintage collector, and then come out saying we hire I don't know, we have the foremost experts in vintage grading, we are the place to go like, I think if they focused on that niche, and it's too it's, it's easier now that they're part of the PSA umbrella that they can now do this before when they're on their own. Obviously, they're up against PSA. So they got to do what they can. But I think for SGC as a brand, I think yeah, something like that would definitely be the move at this point. Yeah, we are we're aligned for sure. One of the other follow up questions I have for you guys, and we kind of already discussed it already. But you know, whether PSA is really the only long term viable grading company, unless some of these other grading companies pivot or kind of target a different niche crowd within the sports card community. But do you see any of, you know, other than PSA, if you had to bet, which one of these grading companies would just close up shop, which one would it be close up shop? Yeah, I have a I asked because I have a specific answer in mind. Okay, I, for me, of the four for me, it's not of the four. Yeah, I mean, the remaining three remaining. Man, closing up, I don't know, I think there's going to always be a market, especially, like, I'm still big on the Beckett brand, just in general, because I think there's some some so much assets still, in terms of that company. So it's just a matter of their leadership, being able to see kind of like the challenges that they're going to be facing or they're faced with right now with with the market, and where they are in the overall picture. So I think there's always going to be opportunity, it's a matter of leadership. So Beckett was just purchased, we believe or we have to believe that, you know, it's, it's, that's the right move, because the state of Beckett, before it was bought out was definitely not working. So I'm just waiting to see kind of like that trend. So but I'm I'm thinking, because Beckett still has a lot of value and history, that they're going to be able to pick up market share as we go. But it all depends on the leadership. And I think that's already taken care of. So we'll see in the next year or so, the trajectory of Beckett, so I don't think it would be Beckett, I think there's still room. Because think if it's an emerging marketplace, there's always going to be growth. So I believe in the emerging marketplace. So whether it's Beckett, whether it's the next grading company that pops up, they're going to see the inconsistencies within PSA, C, CSG, and SGC, and say, Okay, we're going to do this better. But then, obviously, it's going to be very difficult to go against the giant. But at the end of the day, that's how markets work. Right? So okay, so you don't think it's Beckett? So what do you think is SGC or CGC? Yes, if I had to choose? I, I don't think any, because there's, they play, they play all the role, they all play a role where it's like PSA established themselves as a top, and then SGC is that secondary brand with rich history in the vintage, and then C, CSG is growing a lot because of a totally different market, right? So it's like, where does that leave Beckett really, it would have to be Beckett out of the all four. But okay, but like I said, they've made the right moves. And they could go head to head with PSA, at least get some market share back. Yeah, understood. I'm just laughing because this is a vintage Chung, he doesn't play by the rules. I said, if you had to choose, question doesn't make sense. God damn it. But, okay, no, I get you, though. What about you, John? You know, at first glance, Beckett is the, is the easy answer. You know, and as most especially, we don't know their new ownership and leadership. And if they crapped the bed here and really sink Beckett, because they're on the brink, right? So that's the easy answer. But when you really, when I look at it, for assuming the new ownership does a decent job. keeping Beckett afloat and maybe reinventing. I actually think it's SGC has the greatest, because they just don't have a differentiating factor on the market, right? Like Beckett still has the black label, which a lot of Pokemon collectors surprisingly use. Nobody in the Pokemon community uses SGC. So that's scrapped out in terms of like TCG. But Beckett also has the grading, right? Like the subgrades, which some people do like, and a lot of like Bowman Chrome first autos and the 10, like there's still something about, and they have the legacy. There are market differentiating factors that appeal to the consumer enough for Beckett to prosper. Whereas SGC really at this point, they don't have anything. And I don't even, I think they lost their vintage play too, that that's, you know, like they're not known as the vintage guys anymore. Even vintage collectors use PSA, I think at this point. So I should say, I don't know. Like I think they're the ones on the hot seat right now. Yeah. I totally agree. I asked this question because I think the knee jerk answer and reaction will be Beckett, right? Just because they're down 19% year over year, the numbers keep going down. But again, what you both guys, both of you guys stated, I do believe they could turn the ship around with the right leadership and they have the brand equity still, even that was just incredible. Like they've been going down, but you know, people still like BGS slaps. And I'll say one thing though, it is harder to find BGS graded cards in the, like the ones that are more modern cards, like 2024 Bowman or 23 Bowman. It's like, wow, everyone's going to PSA now. You know what I mean? Like back when we started collecting like the Mookie bets and all those guys, you could easily find BGS nine, five slabs, you know, now it's like, man, it's few and far between, you know? And so that's, that's saying something about the state of Beckett in recent years. But I totally agree with what you said, John, I think SGC is the most redundant in terms of what they're offering now. And, and the fact that they're under collectors, it's, it's an expense for collectors at this point. So I could see them like, Hey, we want to save money. Let's just fold it and then just offer everything under PSA, which is why I asked the question, but yeah. I think SGC, that's my answer as well. It'd be interesting to see what our audience says or what our listeners think. So yeah, if you agree or disagree, we'd love to hear from you. You could always DM us at cards to the moon or at five card guys on Instagram. Okay. Before we move on to the next segment, just quickly, the athletes whose cards were graded most often at PSA last month were, here we go. I'll go five to one. Number five, Caitlin Clark, 14,800. Number four, Paul Skeens, 15,900. Number three, Victor Wembenyama, 17,000. Shoei Otani, number two, 18,500. And number one, Michael Jordan, 19,200. Yeah, still Michael Jordan cards. Crazy. Obviously MJ cards have a lot, ton of value in high grades. So that is more the amount, I guess, still that gets graded. That surprises me. But two questions from this data that I'm really curious about. We talk about pitchers. Are they really investable over the longterm? But obviously Paul Skeens is the guy in terms of pitching. Do you think he's a generational player or a generational pitcher more specifically that he is worth really grading and just holding on to? That's my question one. So question one, I think Paul Skeens talent-wise is a generational pitcher, yes. He is a guy that it's like if you're saying who's the next Verlander, who's the next guy that's going to dominate the big leagues? It definitely from a talent perspective is Paul Skeens. Mm hmm. The question is whether, you know, people are expecting that to be right now. I think that's the problem with all prospects, right? Even if it's like I know pitching is very rare, and you only get, you know, one in a decade that people are after. There's no really big pitching. But I think the game is changing a bit because when we got back into collecting, it's like pitchers and catchers, no go, right? You kind of, you know, don't invest. But you see even guys like Tariq Escobar, who, you know, won a Cy Young now, and he's kind of highly collectible too. So you're getting a lot more action, I think, from a market standpoint. So I think one pitchers are starting to be more collectible. But like I said, the longevity is the kind of question mark for pitchers and why original collectors don't like necessarily investing in prospect side of pitching. You'll see a lot in the marketplace where they're later on the career and they realize, man, this guy was one of the best arms in our generation. They become a lot more desirable at that point. But I think Skeens and Escobar and other young prospects are changing the way we're perceiving collecting. And maybe like we'll discuss this later, but I think there's a bigger macro reason why as well. Okay. Interesting. I'm kind of undecided whether Paul Skeens is a one-off or if he's kind of bringing pitchers back on the map in terms of collectibility. I think he, I can't speak, the first part of your question, I can't speak to his generational talent. Like I don't know enough to know, like that's more on Chung. But I think Paul Skeens is more of a one-off if I'm being honest. I think he's more akin to like Kale McCarr, like defenseman in NHL, where if you just happen to be known as a generational, whatever, pitcher, generational catcher, generational goalie, I think it'll just be at that point, the collectibility becomes sort of undeniable. So I feel like that's where Paul Skeens is now, whether he can uphold that and stay healthy and be consistent, time will tell. But yeah, in terms of his early hype, I do feel it's a bit of a one-off and yeah, anyways. Yeah, that's fair. I don't know if this is going to be a hot take, but I think Paul Skeens is a trap, major, major trap. Okay. Let's hear it. Roy, you got to sell. Roy, you got to sell quick. Sell quick, maybe this season even. But it's kind of what you said, Young. With pitchers, it's longevity, right? And of course, you said this too, with all prospects, it's longevity. You need the career stats. But with pitchers, there's so much more opportunities for injury, right? Because you're throwing so hard, especially these days, these guys are throwing at least 100 miles per hour, which can't be that great for your arm repeatedly, right? And I think I read an article recently saying Clayton Kershaw might be the last pitcher to hit the 3000K mark, the last pitcher, because the game's also changing. Pitchers aren't going deep into games. Five, six innings, seven maybe, and then you got a setup guy and you got a closer. And unless you're stretching out 15 guys within those six innings, which Skeens could probably do every once in a while, but to do that consistently over many, many seasons, I'm not willing to find out if Paul Skeens is that guy for 10 years down the road. I'm going to flip him. Do you guys think Roki Sasaki or Ohtani or Yamamoto would change that narrative going forward? You're seeing more and more big time arms now. And think, these contracts are getting bigger and bigger too. Yeah, that's a good question. For me personally, I think all pitchers are great short-term flips. There's a game now that you can do short-term flips with pitchers. Before you're like, I don't want to take the risk, they might get injured. But now, if you pull a Yamamoto, you got one or two-year window to make a nice flip. And same thing with Skeens, same thing with Sasaki. That's my point of view. It's interesting because if the pitcher's market dictates that, there's going to be a point in someone's career where people are like, it's so cheap. You know what I mean? So it's like a Corbin Burns or Clayton Kershaw and Verlanders are kind of priced out now. So it's like, because of that marketplace, there's going to be a point in time where somebody's going to be like, this is a good buy. This is a good long-term buy based on this guy's career. So I think you're right. There's ebbs and flows of that marketplace where there's going to be maybe kind of like that Boba Shett lull that we always used in the last couple of years as an example, where it's just like no love. No matter how good they are until they hit a certain status. And at that point, the minds that are in it for long-term or as a collector that value like high-end sports cards that they see the potential in 15, 20 years. And they're like, this guy's going to be the greatest pitcher or whatever it is. I think the mind shifts in terms of real collectability. So you're right. All this hype, all this marketing is all hype. If you really think about it. Yeah, no, totally. But you know what, I'm going back to my point. Scherzer, Verlander, Kershaw, they're the last of the Mohicans. We're never going to see the pictures like that again. I just feel just very strongly about that point. And because I feel that way, I don't know. Is it wise to hold Paul Skeens for long-term? You might as well make a quick buck right now and then invest in players that have a better chance, like positional players, sluggers. There are better long-term holds. I don't disagree. I don't disagree. But at the same time, we said that about Otani too. Otani is a unicorn. There's always a unicorn. So Otani is the exception. Yes, exception. That's what I meant. All right. Last question before we move on. Wemby, I don't think we talked about this. I talked about this with Paul Hickey on Friday's episode, but any concerns with his health? And there's obviously a lot of people are in the bandwagon because of what he's done within the first two years of his career. But does this change anything for you guys? I just think the hype is too big. Like I said, it's going to be... And it depends on how his career unfolds. There's obviously going to be a crash in the market. That pace that we were going at the last year can't sustain itself. There's obviously a huge demand for it. So that crash is inevitable. And for me, it all depends on what you believe in Wemby as a player. When is the right time to buy now in terms of his career? So it might be 2026, 2027. We don't know that until... But in terms of the flip market, it's going to be tough, especially if he's not playing. If he's injured, it's going to be very tough. But at the same time, that's when the buying periods do happen in a volatile market. So I think Wemby, a lot of people like him because of the volatility. And a lot of people are in it for the flip. But true value, I think it's going to eventually correct itself, especially when we have economic downturns. So you have an emerging market in an economic downturn. So take it for what it is, because there's going to be a balance of both fake value or fake valuation and then a real correction. So for me, it's all about buying at the right time. I do believe in Wemby as a player. So there's that. But like I said, if you're buying and you believe in the player like a Steph Curry, if you invested in Steph Curry back in the day, you probably do well. So if you believe that Wemby is that type of player and there's certain type of cards that are cheap, then yeah, 100% go for it. But other than that, I would stay away. How about you, John? Any injury concerns even? I'm with Hyung. I think the injury, I mean, is there some long term concerns? Maybe it's a blood clot, right? Like in his shoulder? Yeah. Or something like that? Yeah. So I mean, medically, maybe there are some long term concerns. But I think overall, this certainly helps kind of simmer the hype a little bit. So if you are a Wemby believer, it makes it a little bit easier to get back in the market. And I think Wemby, I mean, going back to the Paul Skeen thing and Wemby, we just know like years one to three, especially when you're talking about generational talent, I mean, it's highly, you know, it's just not advisable to spend your long term strategy during the hype phase. It doesn't matter who you are, it's going to come down. So I think if you are a long term believer in Wemby, if you are a long term believer in Skeens, I think I'm with you, Clark. The move is if you happen to hit a great card, sell it. And if you really do believe in Wemby, really do believe in Paul Skeens, as a long term generational talent, you will have opportunity to get back in 100%. Yeah. Right. I think everybody's kind of scared of missing the boat because of what's happening with Otani. Right. But he might be like the one exception amongst the thousands of pro athletes in sports cards. So I think you pretty good odds we're not getting another showy situation. You know, look at Luca. I mean, albeit his pricing was at its peak because of the whole COVID era, but I mean, even him, he's not untouchable. His cards have come down immense amounts. Yeah. No, I agree. Not much more to add. And like I said, when I was speaking with Paul Hickey, I'm still a believer in Wemby. And if anything, with this injury, with this blood clot, I think if the market does come down... This might be a buying opportunity, but you still have to monitor how much it comes down and then believe that Wenby will come back full strength whenever he does. Okay, let's move on now to our next segment, quiz show. All right, we saved this. We were gonna do it a couple weeks, but John, you've been busy, and we're like, let's do quiz show when John's back because it's more fun with both of you guys on. So a few questions. First one, I'm gonna ask you about cards that sold for a million dollars or more, all right, in the past few years. First question is, how many have sold for over a million already in 2025? What do you guys think? Oh, there's no multiple choice. It's just straight up answers. Okay, I'll give you a multiple choice. Yeah. Two, three, five. In the last, how many years? 2025 alone. Oh, 2025. The past two months. Two, three, oh, in the past. Well, I was gonna say zero, so I'm glad I don't have that option. I'm gonna say, I'm gonna, man, I wanna say five, but I'm gonna say three actually. But I think five, I wouldn't be surprised. Splitting the difference, okay. Yeah, yeah, I'm gonna go with the C, like the typical C answer is three. Yeah. I don't even recall any million dollar sales, and it's just probably eluding me. So I would think it's the lowest number then, if I can't remember. If it was five, I'd be like, okay, one or two of the five, I would have recalled seeing million dollar sales. I'll go with two. The correct answer is three. You're right, Young, in this case. Number one was 1916 M1014 Sporting News Babe Ruth, sold for 1.372 million, PSA seven. Second one was the 1955 Topps Roberto Clemente, PSA nine, sold for 1.006 million. Wow. And that was number three, actually. And number two was the 2003 Upper Deck LeBron James Exquisite Collection RPA, numbered the 23 BGS 8.5 10 Auto, sold for 1.22 million on Golden. There you go. So there's three. This is kind of a part two of that question. In 2021 and 2022, we saw the most number of cards that sold for a million. That was during the COVID hobby hype. Combined how many sold for over a million in 2021 and 2022? I'll give you some multiple choice. Okay. Around 60, around 80, around a hundred. What? Is that, is that, are you serious? That, that was that many? Combined in 2021 and 2022 during the COVID hobby hype. Oh man. Jeez. Holy. I got to go with the lowest one here. 60, around 60. Which is crazy. Yeah. That's already crazy enough. I'm going to go with 62. Okay. The correct answer is around 80. Okay. 83 to be exact. 2021, there was 42 cards that sold for over a million and 2022, there was 41. So 42 plus 41. That was a crazy time. It was a crazy, crazy time in the hobby. People- Were they reselling to each other? People will look back during that time. It's like, wow. What was that? What was that era like? Those two years of collecting? We're like, those were the Louis Robert years, you know? That's what happens when you get low interest rates, right? Yeah. Two more. I had to take out the segment from the last episode with Hyung that you and I did because I didn't realize the Cheetos Zard. You guys know about the Cheetos Zard? Right. That wasn't, that was on an auction but it wasn't the final price. And we're talking about it as if it were. And I, you know, I thought 8,000 was crazy for that Cheetos Zard. Most of you guys know by now it's sold for over $87,000. That's nuts. The piece of Cheeto. That's nuts. It looks like a Charizard. There must be something, something weird, like. Yeah. I think Lameem James had a post saying money is not real after seeing this sale of a Cheetos Zard of 87,000. Reportedly, the question is, reportedly it originally sold on eBay a few years ago for how much? Okay. A hundred bucks? 350? Or 1,000? What year was this? It said a few years ago. A few years ago? I'm saying $100. Somebody paid $100 and everybody said this guy is absolutely insane. Both buyer and seller are absolutely insane. So I'm going to say a hundred bucks. Wow. A hundred, okay. I'm going to say a thousand. You said that's sold for a thousand? I mean, if people are crazy now about it, I could still see them being kind of crazy about it back then. That's true. That's true. I'm giving you all the answers right down the middle. It's 350, reportedly. Wow. For this Cheetos Zard a few years ago. Insane. Which is a nice return, 350 to 87,000. That's insane. I do admit the casing is kind of nice. The casing is worth 86,990. Yeah. Yeah. That's kind of cool actually. All right. Last one. NFTs. We thought NFTs were dead, but the Prism Katelyn Clark gold vinyl, one of one NFT. Okay. Not the physical card, but the flagship image of the Katelyn Clark Prism rookie sold recently for how much? 5,000, 15,000 or about 50,000. Sorry, say that. Which card was it? Yeah, which Katelyn Clark? Sorry, say it again. The gold vinyl one of one NFT card. NFT. Katelyn Clark Prism. Doesn't Spinach John have it? I remember, I thought I could have sworn I saw his Instagram account. You might have bought it. What's the middle price? I can't remember. What was the middle price? 15,000. 15,000. 15,000 sounds about right, but I'm going to say, I'm going to say if you're crypto rich, you're a different rich, right? So it's, I'm going to say 50K because the Katelyn Clark and the market is crazy. And I don't, do I think it's worth that? I have a one of one Vlahovic Prism black and I see my offers that I'm getting, it's nowhere near $50,000. So like I get offers like 80 bucks, 90 bucks that are like, who's buying these? So I'm going to go complete opposite and say some crypto rich guys, you know, dropping this, you know, 50K on this card. This fake card. That's interesting reasoning. I have, I have no other reasoning, except I can't imagine Clark at this point is going to switch up the middle choice. So I'm going to go 15. 15, 15 makes sense. I love how John thinks, but you know, I played a long game. It was, the answer was 51,248. Crazy, crazy. I set you up for the pattern and then I switch it out right at the end. Always get me good. But yeah, you're right. Crypto rich is a different kind of rich apparently. So 51K for the Katelyn Clark gold vinyl one of one NFT. All right, not too bad. Not too bad. We'll do another round of quiz show in a future episode. Okay, let's end off this episode with our regular weekly segment we call pick one. All right, in our show notes, I kind of revealed to you what my pick one was. So I'll start things off because you already know what it is, but I'll share it with our listeners. Would you rather have as an investment, the WWE card? I don't know if you saw in Toronto actually, it was held in Toronto, the latest wrestling event where John Cena famously turned into a bad guy after 16, 17 years of being a good guy. And he teamed up with The Rock and then our boy Travis Scott was there. And so there's a triple on-card auto one of one of John Cena, Dwayne, The Rock Johnson and Travis Scott. Or LeBron just hit his 50,000 career points mark. Of course, tops now is marking that moment. And there is a one of one with the, what do you call it? His armband with the Nike logo on the armband. That's gonna be the relic and then autograph one of one. So which card would you have as a long term investment? I already know John's answer. Come on, this was set up to make me look like a bit of hater. He's acting like it's like a hard decision. We don't know what the LeBron hater's gonna pick. You guys set me up again. John, you go first. Come on. Confirm or deny which one you're going with. Okay, it's a legitimate tough choice because I mean, from an investment standpoint, like LeBron at 50,000 points, that's an unbelievable feat. Regardless of you can hate that he has a longevity and that all that stuff. But he's a monster. I'm not gonna deny LeBron being this athletic specimen that just never gets injured. And I mean, 50,000, I don't honestly think anyone is ever gonna touch that number. And it's a one of one and there's a relic from the actual game and it's an autograph. But it's LeBron James. But it's LeBron, yeah. But on the other side, I mean, I think the three of us are not really into WWE, but Will is. I had no idea it was in Toronto. But from what I can garner from social media, this was a pretty monstrous moment in WWF history. Like it feels like this was one of the biggest moments in WWE that's gaining traction. Like we all know about it. There's nothing else in WWE that's happened over the 10 years that none of us would have known was like a big event or whatever. Like this was a legitimate kind of like seeping into pop culture kind of moment. So to have a triple auto from that moment is pretty awesome too. And I think that card is incredible. Like I think there's many collectors who are gonna want it. The Rock, John Cena, and then Travis Scott kind of blends a whole bunch of pop culture. Yeah. I don't know. I think I have to, by default, I have to stick to sports and from a sports cards perspective, the LeBron 50,000 points, historic moment, Relic Auto, I have to go with that one. I think that's the one investment-wise in the future is gonna be worth way more money. I feel like we peer pressured into saying that. Could I have picked WWE prior to the haterade? Maybe. All right, Sean, what do you think? Well, it's easy one for me, but I think because obviously LeBron is new with autos now, with tops, this is the first like big moment. I would say USA Basketball was a big moment, but like this is another big moment, kind of like the Otani 50-50. So for me, there's a huge hype around that scope anyways and LeBron autos. So if you look at previous history of any early 2000s or mid 2000s, even late 2000s LeBron autos, they fetch a huge premium and LeBron hasn't been signing. So for me, it's like, this is what you want. This is, you're witnessing kind of like John said, I don't think it's gonna be very tough to replicate this unless science totally changes the sport and people can play until they're like 50 years old, right? So to me it's, and LeBron's kind of doing that right now. So you're gonna have to replicate a career like that. So I think it's a great, great chase, great card because it is, what's it called? They have it marked as like the 50,000 points as well. So for me, yeah, it's a LeBron, easy. I'm not into WWE nor does that whole pop culture kind of like, I guess, get me excited. Even if there was opportunity, there might be opportunity. It wouldn't be something that I would probably pick regardless, just based on sports. It's a great one-on-one though, really good. So it's biased, it's a biased answer, yes. Okay, man, I want to say the WWE because I'm getting it, I'm getting it now. And kind of what you said, John, like I'm looking at social media, I'm getting it like the chills. I'm like, why am I getting the chills watching this footage of John Cena turning heel, you know? And Travis Scott, there was a clip, I don't know if you saw the Travis Scott clip talking with Triple H after the show and he's getting, and he's like, he even said on air, he's like, this is low key, better than performing. And he's like, you know, he loves just being in the rink with The Rock and Cena and just, you know, just living this out, right? So I think WWE is growing. We had Will on the program a couple of weeks ago and I'm seeing the appeal and I think it's just growing. I think it's, and you look at the footage and it's, someone else said this on X that wrestling is like a soap opera for guys. You know what I mean? You see? 100% it is. You see like the reaction. people are like genuinely going out of their minds you know like they're pulling their hair you know when Sina kicked Cody Rhodes in the ball they're like they're literally pulling their hair out of their heads it's like they're just you know going berserk and it's just hilarious to watch yeah the culture is really strong in in WWE right and i think because of that there's all you need is one really rich collector in that has that kind of you know that's true you know um that loves wrestling um and can this card in a few years go for obscene amount of money yeah i could totally see it and then also like they're selling these replica championship belts for a thousand dollars at at the rogers center people are buying them like crate like it's nothing it's like yeah of course i'm gonna buy one thousand bucks right there you know what i mean so people that are passionate about wrestling i think if they can afford to they will spend the money for a collectible like this especially this one of one card so that being said i mean if the honestly if the lebron card didn't have the armband i was gonna say that too i think that clinched it for me that clinched it if it's just an auto wwe card triple auto you put you pull you you you pull you pull the john someone had to pull a john because john didn't pull a john john didn't pull a john today so i had to do it for him all right um john yeah you're a 1v1 yeah so last week you know we talked a bit uh about wyatt langford uh i i see a lot about actually his his prices are going up too so that's going to be the other side still because i believe he is a buyer in the right cards there's some cheap cards some overpriced cards for why it too so uh that's the thing with collecting in general it's like when you say somebody's overpriced it might not be true in all instances right so there's other cards that might be undervalued within a player and i feel like wyatt langford is that person so i'm gonna pick two cards but this past week the the story in the in the news have been this prospect new york yankees prospect his name is george lombard jr okay so he's actually a pretty big he's new york yankees number two prospect behind jason dominguez and he he's a 19 year old kid kind of like a a rod slash carlos correa type like i would say comp right it's a 19 year old kid this guy ends up hitting like two home runs and uh as a 19 year old in his in spring training games in front of the big big league squad so there was huge amounts of hype around him and i think a couple years or last year when his bowman chrome was released huge hype like this guy's the next a rod this guy's the next correa this guy's the next deal new york yankees prospect so there was a huge hype and then he ended up hitting like 230 and his value tanked so i feel like his cards are super cheap right now so i'm what i'm doing is i'm setting up the selling selling you guys on george lombard that this guy is kind of like a big time prospect right like and rightfully so i did my due diligence this guy is a player i think that can help new york yankees in the future he has all the mix of athleticism kind of like five tool talent the power's not there yet the hit tool is not there yet but super high iq player good physical athletic build so you have all the tools that you want as like kind of like that five tool shortstop or middle infielder or third base so i'm his gold auto his bowman chrome true gold auto a psa9 version just recently sold for 1200 bucks okay and this was there there is a little bump because he has a little bit of hype this card probably wouldn't have sold for 1200 in september or october or november right so recently sold for 1200 sorry i'm going to say that again um sorry it recently sold for a thousand bucks it's a true gold and i'm going to pair that up with wyatt lankford's bowman chrome first a gold shimmer though not true gold that sold for 1200 they're both psa9s so are you going to go with the george lombard psa9 true cold true gold refractor out of 50 or wyatt lankford's gold shimmer out of 50 oh thousand for the gold seems a lot but i guess it must have been pretty high back then it came down to a thousand definitely came down yeah at release george lombard was a chase in in in that set i don't even recall that name um i'm not a huge fan of gold shimmer but i i think it's just too deep into prospecting for me i get it's yankees but i if i'm investing money as a casual in terms of bowman prospecting i think it would make more sense for somebody like me to put money into somebody like wyatt lankford regardless of the parallel even if it's green or something you're kind of it's a little bit more ugly i would put something into money where the he's proving himself in the big leagues rather than prospecting but i get it right if lombard comes back next year and like he just has it doesn't he doesn't even need to have a good season like just comes out firing and it's hot for like two weeks and there's just a flash in the pan you have some incredible return like incredible so he's he said it certainly set himself up to have that spark so i get it i get why you could take that take advantage but i'll go the safe route and i don't i'm actually kind of tempted to switch it maybe i'm talking myself but i gotta i gotta go i know the true goal is really getting me um no i'll stick to the safe answer i'll go i'll go why it nice i'm gonna go why it as well i don't know maybe it's because you biased me from the last episode i'm like okay i'm all in on why i too he was like like he was talking him up so much that i started putting him on my watch list on ebay so um and the other side is i'm i'm warming up to shimmers or even waves like like not true gold you know they're totally under 50 right yeah and i'm like if i brought a gold wave or gold shimmer to a show i'm sure i could easily trade that with someone that's interested in that player because they're going to look at it it's going to look just as nice it's numbered to 50 still right and i think i can make a play with cards that aren't true color right so um so for that reason and why it being you know um with uh already into big leagues and with his talent already i'm going to go with langford nice so the reason why i i paired these two is because one i'm i'm big on white so i think 1200 bucks for a gold shimmer in his first chrome i think that's a good purchase in general i think there's a lot of upsides the problem is like do we see why langford to become that person this year i think he's going to have a phenomenal year to prove that he is that type of player but i think to reach his true potential where his price goes bonkers it would be two three years down the road now could he do it this year absolutely i wouldn't be surprised because he is more of a mature guy he's not a high school guy he's an sec college kind of a player that has the experience that is needed to be an impact player in the big leagues right away so there's that factor that i'm taking with why so when you guys said he is definitely the safer pick in this 100 true i think lombard had so much hype that you know um he has to now perform but they're in different cycles is my point where why is in that major league cycle that we you know we've already experienced and now it's like you're buying cheap whereas lombard it's like he's navigating through the minor league so as long as he starts becoming a top like 10 prospect within the whole uh you know mlb top 100 prospect that gold true gold auto can go bonkers in my opinion like it could go to way overpriced way hyped and you see a little bit of it here so the question is will lombard be able to hold his own in the minor leagues i think it's easier to hold your own in the minor leagues as a 19 year old than it is a 22 year old holding their own in the major leagues because obviously minor leagues you have a bunch of 19 year old kids you're playing against 20 year old kids you're not playing against 30 year old men that's already developed so i i like the combination of upside that lombard has in terms of his now way riskier though right but for me it's like i would i think the better buy at 9.99 or a thousand dollars us is on that lombard gold because it is a true goal and whether or not hobby logic we could justify gold shimmer is just as gold as gold true gold because it's numbered to 50 that's just the supply the people that are in the game dictates the demand so there's always going to be a larger demand with limited supply of the true gold that is going to justify the inflated price and like i said i believe that gold shimmers gold waves gold lavas any low numbered parallel that's not a true refractor is undervalued or you could say it's properly valued and true refractors are way overpriced in general but the market seems to continue to say it is what it is yeah yeah so until that stops i'm going to follow the market in terms of the trends but from a collection standpoint i think any gold shimmers like you said is a great buy but in this case i'm going true gold because of the potential that it has from a short-term play perspective yeah understood that's good one all right johnny okay so in honor of our tops series one rip night i'm gonna go from an investment perspective which would which would you rather top series one barry bonds auto i think depending on the the style and image i think there's two different uh card stocks yeah but it's it ranges anywhere from 1200 to 1600 recently sold usd versus the 20 sorry did i say 2024 2025 frank thomas no name insert recently sold at auction for 1700 something similar to this no oh did you sorry no no i'm not sure i remember we talked about the no name frank thomas we talked about both but i don't think we pitted against each other right right okay is the frank thomas auto last episode my bad guys no it's just a no name okay the original no name yeah yeah so the frank thomas no name insert i think it's ssp i think yeah um sold for 1700 versus a barry bonds auto investment wise if you're spending your money 1500 bucks or whatever it is which which which would you rather choose i'll go um it's easy for me i think just barry bonds i think the auto um i mean unless the hard part is whether the whole steroid thing the whole you know the stigma that is attached to barry bonds i think you know we discussed this on a previous pod too i think that stigma is eroding you know as time goes by and people are going to see barry bonds for the player he was you know pre and post the steroid era and and just kind of you know give uh credit where it's due and also i feel like barry bonds is trying to change his image a little bit more too these days he's around more so to be more likable i guess you know so that's another factor and frank thomas like it's a no name is it's almost like a gimmicky gimmicky card for me you know i i guess i would just rather probably have a lower graded version of the original no name if i could find one then a high grade or a cleaner version of the 2025 top series one version so personal preference at the end of the day i guess i'm going with barry bonds yeah i think um i'm i'm in the same boat as clark where i rather have a nice copy of the the actual no name frank thomas card because i think the true value is in that card whereas you know and here's the thing frank thomas in general is just underrated i think he his career is was was unbelievable i got to watch him growing up so frank thomas was like a big you know a right-handed hitter that i i love but i think the combination will one auto versus non-auto like that's that's a big win the other thing is barry bonds hasn't been signing so this is now new and barry bonds autos try finding them in the 90s or 2000s it's like good luck finding any like nice auto of barry bonds like it's it's it's next to possible unless you get an ip auto um because the ink fades on a lot of those you know upper deck you know sp you know cards they use black black autos that fade so for me barry bonds autos i think are going to be a thing and they are that's why you see the justification of why people would be willing to pay that much for a so-called steroid user right at the end of the day i i like i said i we talked about this before i think that whole issue with barry bonds that stigma is going to start disappearing because you realize how good barry bonds was and then when you compare apples to apples and really dig into this issue i guarantee you you're going to be a lot more lenient on on kind of like the stipulations and facts and for that reason i think um there's so much more upside in the barry bonds auto just because his autos are rare and he is the greatest of all time period coming from a baseball player regardless there's no one that even comes close to barry bonds at this point so for me i'm gonna go with you know if i hold that barry bonds auto i'm happy with that right it wouldn't be a resell it'd be like this guy's the greatest baseball player of all time period and i have one of his autos that would be the justification so i'm gonna go barry bonds yeah i think it i think it's a I'm with you Clark. I think the Frank Thomas clearly is Selling for more I think because of the rarity But it is some people can say it's a bit gimmicky I mean first of all kudos to tops for putting in Barry Bonds autos and Putting in you know, the Frank Thomas no-name Like putting in these chases like I love seeing this rather than putting in Red way ray wavers just some additional parallels like just putting in brand new fresh chases Whether they are quasi gimmicky or not awesome, and it makes it makes collecting fun again So I could have said that but yeah in terms of investment I think certainly I think both cars are gonna go down right the hype is gonna simmer And they're both probably end up being like sub $1,000 But I think Barry Bonds is the auto is easily the way to go for sure Yep, good one. You know what if in our rip session tonight if I hit the Frank Thomas no-name I'm gonna edit this and say I want to go for the One of us hits any of those man, we're gonna be like this is the best card ever Well, we'll redo this segment All kidding aside, thanks to all our listeners for tuning in we appreciate you guys And you know our numbers are for 2025 we've seen a nice bump So yeah, we appreciate all the new listeners coming in to cards to the moon And we'll have a brand new episode for you guys next week Hey, thanks for listening to cards to the moon We'd really appreciate you subscribing to our podcast wherever you listen to your podcasts And you can also connect with each of us on instagram at five card guys Or you can follow young at integrity sports cards or John at trade you at recess You can also check us out at five card guys calm Thanks again, and hope to connect soon