Down on the hobby? Or the industry? Where's the line?

Hey, everybody, it is Mike. And this is this week in sports cards sponsored by AuctionWire. Yu-Gi-Oh and I'm joined by a surprise guest today. Mike, baseball collector. How are you, Mike? I'm great. Other Mike. I'm great. Good. Thanks for joining me. Chris is on some European vacation. I don't know who authorized that, but we'll have a conversation about that when he gets back. Whoops. So thanks for joining me on semi short notice. You, you know, I think we're just going to jump right in because I'm, I'm really interested in this. A lot of people put out kind of hobby doom and gloom videos and they're. They. With a lot of creators, that's just what they do. And you get kind of sick of it. Right? But you put out one a couple weeks ago and it got a ton of notice because you don't do that type of content usually. You're, you're very much a. The hobby's amazing. I love everything about it. But last week, I was it two weeks ago, almost 10 to 14 days ago, you put out something like, I have some concerns about the hobby. And from you, I think it's, it's much more interesting because it's not your normal lane. You're not normally down on the hobby. And there are a lot of creators out there who just, you know, for views. They, they do, oh, the hobby's crashing, which works. But that's, it's, it was, it was different. It hit different coming from you. And I thought you made a lot of really good points that I wanted to touch on, but I'd love to know a little bit more background on how that came to be. What made you do that? I know you talked about at the beginning of the video, but. And I rewatched today, took some notes, and it holds up. I mean, it's a really good video. Evergreen, I hope not, actually. Just, you know, I was, I just see things and you're just like, I wish it wasn't this way. Right. And unfortunately, I love how you say every time it's industry and the hobby two very different things. I think the more of us that can champion that discernment between those two things, the better for all of us. Right. It never hurts to hear that again. Never hurts to reiterate that point. Those are two very different things because I think the industry is cruising right along, thriving, thriving. The hobby part, the collecting part, and those lines are blurred for a lot of people. I, I understand that and that's fine. Right? I. It's not A criticism of that. It's just the pure hobbyists are a dying breed, you know? Yu-Gi-Oh And you talked about this. One of the first line I wrote on my notes was hobby versus industry. The line is blurring and skewing to the industry and I think it's tough, it is very blurry because you and I both consider ourselves hobbyists, but we also contribute to the industry because we both like PSA graded cards. We both, I don't get cards graded anymore. I don't know. You don't do it a ton. But you know, there, there is that kind of like. Well, I like PSA graded cards. I like SGC graded cards. They're the industry. Although I've stopped getting new cards graded, I'm still, I got a comment just today from somebody saying, until you stop buying graded cards, you're to blame too. And I, I, I disagree, of course, but it's. That line is blurring for sure. Well, there's a symbiotic relationship between the two. You, you actually can't have one without the other, really. Right. Somebody's got to be making binders for me to put cards in. And penny sleeves shout out to the penny sleever. Penny sleever. You know, some. I love the auction Auction wire tool. Like, I like that there is an industry that helps support my hobby. Does that jive? Absolutely. But do Auction Wire and the penny sleever and Chris Sewell, are they part of the industry? Because they're small businesses. And so I think when I think of the industry, I think of Fanatics psa, the big companies that are out to make as much profit as possible and they don't care about the collectors. And you know, last night I texted Mark Mandel, the co founder of Auction Wire, and I said, hey, I have a viewer who has an issue logging in. And Mark fixed it immediately. I had an issue with a penny sleever order that one of my viewers had a couple weeks ago and boom. I texted Isaac, the owner of the penny sleever, and he fixed it in minutes. And I feel like those aren't industry type traits, but maybe the blur, the line is blurring there too. No, I think you're making actually a really solid point. I do wonder. Nothing can get big and keep the intimacy. Right. It's very difficult to be wildly successful and stay intimate with everybody involved, which is the. Like I, Leighton and Mark, who co founded Auction Wire and they're a partner of my channel, they're a partner of Sports Card Clubhouse. So we're all pro Auction Wire. I love it at some point is that if they got big enough, if they got into TCG and like all the things, right. And they have a million users or something, you know, just exorbitantly gigantic. Do they forget the little guy, you know, or the person that got him started? And it. I wouldn't even fault them for it. Yu-Gi-Oh you got a lot going on. You don't have time for me. I get it, you know, that. That would be kind of my. I would hope would be my reaction. I. I enjoy the smaller companies. I was talking to one dude today who's making. Who make slab museums. Yu-Gi-Oh Steve, I was talking to him today and I'm glad I can call him on the phone and he answers the phone. Right. There's a point where, you know, I. I don't know. Nat Turner is not going to answer my phone call. Right. Probably not. He should, but he one-of-one I. I don't know. I'm. You bring up a great point, but I think any so hard. It's so blurry. It is blurry. Now we're going to blur it a little bit further here. Card Ladder. I have a relationship, an affiliate relationship with Card Ladder as well. Code scc. Code SCC for auction wire too. They. I texted, but here last week, Dylan, Double D vintage and Adam did a video where they talked about Car Ladder. And Dylan, in about a:15 had a great idea for an improvement to Card Ladder. So I clipped that down, I sent it to Chris Hoge and he said, this is a great idea. And about four hours later, he texted me back saying we just added into the. The. The web app. And so Card Ladder is owned by collectors. They're a sister company of psa. They're part of the industry, but they're also still so agile that they move very quickly and they want to do things for collectors. And so I think they're part of the industry, but they're also part of the hobby. They have one foot in, one foot out. Does that feel accurate? 100. That's. Card ladder is a great example. I've had maybe a handful of conversations with Chris, but if I contacted him about something, he would get back to. I know it. Yu-Gi-Oh I know it. I know it. Yu-Gi-Oh Right? They're awesome. I'm a huge Card Ladder fan. Yu-Gi-Oh And so I get that. Right. And they're an example of being part of big mama industry. Right? Like they're not. They're integrated, fully integrated with PSA, eBay, they're. And eBay being another big industry Titan. Yu-Gi-Oh for sure. And good for them, though. I mean, not everybody can call. Well, maybe they can. I don't know. I mean, I know I don't have Chris's number. I private messaged him through Twitter. Gotcha this. Would they be that way with everyone? That's the question. Right, Right. And fair. Chris seems like the kind of guy that would want to be that way. Right. Like, he's very personable. Very. Truthfully, Nat seems that way. Right? He is. I think Nat really cares about his brand and he cares about collecting, but there's only so much. There's only so much he can do. And that's. Right. If you're on Twitter, you can see Nat actually trying to help people. And a lot of the time, he does a good job, but there are a lot of things that he just completely ignores. Completely valid complaints that he completely ignores. And so it's. I don't know. It's weird. Moving on a little bit here. You also talked about. You said there are a lot of people who are just coming into the hobby to make money, and I think that was kind of what triggered it for you. Do you think it's a bad thing that people see a lot of people making money and they are trying to get in? Is it possible that there's almost like a funnel of people who get in to make a lot of money or to make some money as a side thing, and then they start realizing that they're in love with collecting and then they shift into hobbyists like us? Yes. The trigger for that video was several people that I know that I haven't talked. One of the guys I hadn't talked to in a couple of years, five years, 10 years. And he texts me out of the blue, hey, Mike, I've been watching Chasing Cardboard, and I saw you on it, and I'm wondering what cards I should buy. That's why I want to make some money. And I'm like. And then I had another dude who I've. I. I know he's an acquaintance. I wouldn't call him. He's more friendly. Right. For sure. And he. It was the same day both these things happened and that. And I did the video that day. I'm like, okay, some. Why? Where. Where have all the hobbyists gone? As Simon and Garfunkel should have sung instead of where is Joe DiMaggio? You know, they weren't asking, dude, I love Ken Griffey and that. What card? You know, like, I want to collect. Because I remember. And they were both nostalgic they both had cards when they were kids. It's the same formula, different motivation on the back end, different reason to get back in. Not because I want to collect again, because I love these players and I remember and I want to reminisce. Dude, there's a lot of money I want to make. I want some of that. How can I do that? Right? That's the thing. That was the trigger for me. Yu-Gi-Oh So now, on the other side of that, Mike, I have somebody coming over to My House tomorrow as we record this, who is 15 years old. He's bringing his dad, and he's a guy that I know from church, and we've talked cards for a long time. He's a collector, and that's the kid I want to bring him. He hasn't been to the new room, and so he's coming over and, man, we're gonna have hours of fun, I promise. So for every. I. Yes. The people come in, some stay for the. For the hobby reason. Some don't. I mean, I. I think it. That's good. That's. That would have been true then and now, and there's just more of them, right? Yu-Gi-Oh And I think we can also acknowledge, at least. I don't want to speak for you, of course, but we also both have kind of fallen into some subsets of our collections that are benefited by the industry. I'm into iconic sports cards, and those have boomed in the last year or two. I've been into them for, like four years. And so I've seen as I was able to buy these cards cheap in 2023 and 2024, my collection has skyrocketed in value, and so I've definitely benefited from this. Also, PSA dual graded autographs have boomed in the last two years, and so my collection has skyrocketed. I didn't do that. I didn't buy those because I thought that they would skyrocket in value. I bought them because I love them, and now I'm benefiting from what's happening in the industry. Well, I'll ask you the same question I asked Leighton in my last Goldin Age of cardboard episode. The top heaviness of the market. It feels very top heavy. There's maybe two dozen player, maybe less. Truly Jackie Robinson. Mickey, man, you know, you can name them all. They're on fire. What about Harmon Killer Brew and Al Kaline and. And, you know, Richie Ashburn. Richie Ashburn, you know, greats of the game. Yu-Gi-Oh That are not ignored, but they're certainly not accelerating at the same pace as. Because when these people. Here's what happens, Mike. This is why it's top heavy. People come in, they have money, they want to buy the. The first things that they think about are the iconic cards that you're discussed, that you're mentioning. They want to buy. If it's modern, they're buying the kaboomis in the downtowns and all that stuff. And if they're, you know, vintage guys, they want, you know, Mantle and Maze and Aaron and Clemente and Jackie Satchel. Right. So they want those guys. Larry Dobie is an afterthought. Or Al Kaliner. You know, I could go to my. Behind me here and forget about pre war, like Jim Bottomley or, you know, I'm naming players people probably don't know, you know, that are hall of Famers. Right, Right. And for someone like, like me, who's a completionist, who's a kind of curator of the history of the game to a degree, because that's what I love to do. I don't, I can't. First of all, I don't expect everyone to be that way. I'm a little bit on the extreme on the other end. Right. But I don't expect everyone to be like that. But it feels like it's so top heavy. I wish there was more breadth to the, the hobbies. Boom. Or whatever. Yu-Gi-Oh Yu-Gi-Oh And actually Greg and I, our big topic for Tuesday's surface issues is iconic cards and what's safe in the hobby long term. But, Yu-Gi-Oh I mean, it's a fantastic topic. I also want to just encourage listeners, don't go and comment about Mike saying anything bad about these, the, the, the lesser hall of Famers. He's not saying that. All he's saying is that people getting in with money are largely ignoring the Richie Ashburns, the, the Larry Topps even, who have stories, who have, who are amazing, they're just being ignored. Yu-Gi-Oh I have all those cards. I, I love them. Like. Yu-Gi-Oh don't take it as I'm bashing that. It's just. And if you're a collector, great. That stuff hasn't gone nuts. And I can still afford those things. Right. Yu-Gi-Oh If you're accumulating hall of Fame runs or certain. You're building sets or whatever, not everything has gone bananas. The market itself kind of rising is. I called it. I'm right about a lot of things, but I'm also wrong about some things once in a while. But, you know, we had the COVID boom. Right. And then they kind of retreat and now this. Right. And that's kind of Everything is higher. Right. Just some things are on a meteoric rise. Yu-Gi-Oh And others are just kind of increasing at a more normal pace. Right. More average pace. So everything's higher than it was in Covid, period. But I got to do another video where I did the, the surprising video was the things that I never thought would be up or that are up. You know, my cards that are up, lots of money. And that got insane traction. And people like hearing about that, you know? Yep. For different motivations, different reasons. I was just like, holy crap. Can you believe in Topps, Ricky Henderson and a PSA nine? I bought it for, you know, $10. It's worth a hundred. Yu-Gi-Oh Tell me how that makes any sense is basically why I did that video. Yu-Gi-Oh If anybody's watching or listening and hasn't Zenith. These videos that Mike's referencing, go check out Baseball collector here on YouTube. They are great. I love that series because I also enjoy the videos about card values. I, I, I'm largely a hobbyist. I buy cards, and I rarely sell anything. They're all over my walls, they're all through boxes. But I also enjoy the, this, the value side of it. I've always talked about. I, I do enjoy that. Yu-Gi-Oh There are people, I think, that genuinely don't care at all. I am not one of those. I'm not. You are. You're not. I'm not. I, I don't buy for value. I'm intrigued by it. I'm fascinated by it. I'm a numbers guy. I'll tell you what's today, August 14th, we're recording this. I haven't bought a card on eBay since July 10, which for me is like an eternity. And it's because I'm not seeing things that I want to pay what they go for now. So I'm happy. My cards that I already own are up, but I'm not just chasing this. The, the crazy. I have bought some cards at the Dallas card show. I've bought a bunch of stuff. I'm buying, I'm buying set Fleer cards, you know, for $2 or. I just last night, I bought a bunch of tops. Heritage 2001. Because I'm like, oh, I want to work on that set. So I went on Sport Lots and 20 cents a piece, man. Bing, bing, bing, bing. You know, And I, and I had a blast doing that and that. Like, I don't need to buy a big card to enjoy the hobby. Right. I like big Cards. Who doesn't? Right? But I enjoyed just as much, which is hard to imagine potentially. For you. For the. Not for you, but for you out there, buying 75, 2001, tops Heritage cards at anywhere from 20 to 50 cents a piece and spending $45 and going, Yu-Gi-Oh I'm that much closer to that set. Right. That's the collector. That's the hobbyist mindset of, Yu-Gi-Oh I can't wait to get them in. I can't wait to put them in the Pandora I can't, you know, all those things. And I like buying big cards. Right. That's. Yep. I. I don't know how those can coexist. I'm proof of it, but it's a wild, wild world we're in, man. It is just nuts. Yu-Gi-Oh I spent a lot of money at the national, and while I still have a. A card budget, I'm gonna be spending a little less, probably significantly less, but also focusing on rare 90s inserts that are not numbered because I think that they're awesome. And I love. I'm putting up cards on my walls, and I want to have a lot of them. I believe that if there is another boom in something, some unseen area of the hobby, it's going to be these. And so I'm also working on a project related to this, and I don't want to wait. I don't want to wait and see. Oh, all these cards have gotten too expensive because a lot of cards I want now are already too expensive. And I've really gotten into these 90s inserts, early 2000s inserts, and I don't want to keep waiting. And I can get them all cheap. And so I can get a bunch of cards every month for cheap and then still have card money, money left over. And do I save that for a card show, Big card show coming up, or do I put money elsewhere? I don't know. I haven't decided yet. So that's how you're zigging. Right. I'm zagging the other. I'm doing some set building and stuff that I enjoy doing. There's always a way to have fun. There's always a way to not break the bank. Now I'm saving up. I'm going to Philly show in next month, and I'm taking a lot of money. You know, I'm ready to buy a big card there. Right. If I. If it comes across, but I'm not gonna. I'm not chasing. I've always. I think patience is something in the Hobby that has been completely just written off, you know, just like, nope, not bite now by now. And, and I think the reason for that is, number one, there's also the thought of fomo, right, which is today's high prices or tomorrow's discounts. It may seem high today, but it's really going to seem high if things keep going. 41 Playwall DiMaggio is. You could have bought it, you know, for 800 bucks. You know, it's now 8, 000 in the same grade or what? You know, I'm being a little hyperbolic, but. Is that a word? Perfect. Yep. But kind of true, you know, it's. It's four or five or six times what I could have bought it for when I was like, I'll get that later, you know, and now I wish I would have bought it then. And so. But at the same time, patience is such a valuable mentality to have towards the hobby. Just slow your roll, be patient. The cards aren't going anywhere. They're going to be available, you know, but that's so hard for people. Yu-Gi-Oh In my reaction to your first video where you talked about the value of your cards, the ones that have surprised you and how much they've gone up, I put out a video where I talked about your video and then said, look, I've got the same situation with a lot of cards, and I'm not selling them because I. I like having them in my collection. And if they keep going up, you know, I'm speculating if I sell it that it's going to go down, but if it keeps going up, I don't want to. If I sell my Steph Curry rookie card right now for 3, $500, which I could. I paid 800 for it a year ago. If I sell it for 3, 500, what if it's 7,000 a year from now? What if he gets traded to the Celtics? It's me dreaming and they one-of-one another title and it's worth 7,000 in a year. Now I don't want to pay $7,000 for that card. I'm happy that I paid 800 for it, but I really love having it in my collection. So I don't want to take that profit with any. Almost, almost any of my cards. The second point, I think, is the point you really need to emphasize, which is then you don't have the card anymore and you still like the card. That's, you know, there are a lot of guys that are arbitrage. You know, they might have a higher grade like, let's take satchel page. Topps. I have a five. I don't really need a five in my collection, but I have one I could sell. People would sell the five, take that difference, buy something else and buy a two or a nice looking three or whatever. Well, that's all well and good, but that's a pain in the ass. Like at the end of the day, I don't want to spend that much time doing it and. Well, that's how you can get more money. Yu-Gi-Oh I go to work, that's how I get my card. Budget is added by me going to work and so I don't want to go. And that sounds. If you want to do it, knock yourself out. But I, I don't want to spend my time doing that. I'd rather be out here at the ranch and go fishing or what. I don't want to spend time figuring because I don't want to get rid of the card. I still want a Topps page. And so there you go. I'm keeping my five. Yu-Gi-Oh I would feel like I had a hole in my collection. If I sell off, I, I've very intentionally selected the cards that I have in my collection and if I sell them off, I will feel like there are holes in my collection. Did I collect some profit by selling my Steph Curry rookie? Yu-Gi-Oh that's great. But there's a hole and I don't need. I'd love to have the money for something, but I don't need it. And I like having the card in my collection. So I would, I would regret it almost immediately. Yu-Gi-Oh I get asked all the time. Why don't you, you know, consolidate and trade, you know, work all this magic that could be done based on current prices and, and get that, you know, get a mantle, Topps. Well, I want a Topps mantle. I'd love one. Right. But I don't want to. That would mean all these other, you know, I don't have the other stuff and then I don't. Those. I kind of like look at them as my cards. Like, I found this when I bought this one. I chose to add it to the collection. So I don't want to do that twice for everything, you know, or whatever. And to me it's just, just work harder or make more, you know, wait longer, you know. Yu-Gi-Oh Save up money. Well, it'll be higher later. Yep. And maybe so will everything else if I decide to. You know what I mean? It's. It. I just buy. I only accumulate with My money that I earn. I spent 2500 on my wilt Chamberlain rookie at the National. It's the most I've ever spent on a card. And I was. It's the nicest 1.5 in existence, I'm convinced. And people offered me, within the next 48 hours, 3,003, 500, which they were legitimate offers from people who really wanted the card and really would give me that money for me to flip it to them. And they said, you could go buy another one with the extra money, and I don't want to do that. Would be nice to have the profit, of course, but I Beckett that card, and I had. I had bypassed several other same exact cards at the national. Low grade, but that just didn't have that it factor for me. The. The factor that this is the exact card I want in my collection. They were cheaper, but I just was like, nope, this isn't the right one for me. And I waited, and this one came up. Thank you again to David Chase. And so to flip it to somebody else is me saying I'm settling for something worse just because it's cheaper. Right? Yu-Gi-Oh Don't do that. No, that's not. That's not the way for me. I understand why some people do it. And this isn't a criticism of that. That's just not the way I want to handle my collection. Yu-Gi-Oh I. I love watching the Hustle, actually. I. Christopher Missouri, one of my. One of my great friends, Christopher Missouri, does this, and he's really good at it. And more power to him. You know, I don't criticize him for doing it. It's just not what I want to do, which is what you just said. Like, we can't be critical of other people, and, like, you can't. Don't. Let me do what I do. Let me do what I want to do. Yu-Gi-Oh thanks. Thank you for the suggestion. I'm not going to do that. Okay. Chris does it. I'm not bashing him at all. I might go, man, if that's how you want to roll, make it. Make it happen. It. It is. I think there is this. You got to do it this way, or you're. Or you're missing something or you're. You're being silly or whatever. And I. I don't know. I don't like. Yu-Gi-Oh I don't worry about it. I also. Part of collecting for me, especially the bigger cards, the more expensive cards, is the stories that come with them, the friendships that I made as part of them, the. The people that I Worked through the people I bought them from, how I got it. And that's also an important part of my collection. I think it's the same thing for you. I know you can cite how much you paid for things and who you bought them from and why you bought it. And that's. That's kind of a really important thing to both of us. It is. It's. We collect cards and stories and projects and all, but it all knits together. It all weaves together. You can't. I don't just collect stories. I also just buy random cards. Right. Or I don't. Right. It's. It's all of it. It's the. The mixture of all those things together. Dr. Beckett said this to me. I will never forget it. He was sitting in my old card room and he said, mike, I said, what do you think of my collection? Beckett seen everything, right? Jim's seen everything. So there's nothing I have that he's going, Yu-Gi-Oh neat. You know, he was very. He pacified my. You know, he was. He was Zebra nice. And I'm like, Yu-Gi-Oh I thought about it as we're sitting, like, he's not impressed. He's seen everything. And I said, well, what do you think about my collection? He's like, mike, you need to just build the best collection for you. Yep. Whatever that looks like. And don't worry about anything else. And that. That resonated with me so deeply because I don't buy cards to show them off on YouTube. I happen to show them off on YouTube. But showing, you know, five star autos that I don't know anybody else collects or likes, I don't care. I. I like them, but I think others go, like yourself would go, that's. I want to see what five star autos might get. Greg tells me that all the time. It's like, dude, I'm always looking to see what five star autos you got. Not because I would collect them myself, but I think it's cool that you. The way you love them, right? Yu-Gi-Oh absolutely. I watch all those videos I watch. I like that, you know, there's a handful of guys that I watch their YouTube videos of and. And we don't collect the same way, but I love watching those videos of the cards that you pick up. And it's. It's exciting. It's just. Even for me, watching it, watching you go through the stories and how excited you are, it's. It's a blast to watch that stuff. Yu-Gi-Oh Take our friend Garrett, right? Card cutter. He's pivoted to refractors. And Garrett and I collect nothing alike because he changes all the time, and he'll wipe his whole collection out and then restart with something else that has tickled his fancy. And I admire the way he collects. He admires the way I collect. He's like, man, I wish I could just hold on to stuff. I really do. And I'm like, well, I think it's pretty cool that you just say, Yu-Gi-Oh the heck with it. I'm gonna sell all this stuff and buy some and go a different route. So there's. There's mutual respect there. That's what. That's probably the best word for other people that collect differently is there's a lot of respect for those people. And I love watching Garrett show his shiny refractors, you know? Yu-Gi-Oh And. And the way he's pivoted and how much he's enjoying it. And so the more I have people like that, too, Mike, where I don't collect the same way, but just love watching them talk about it. Yu-Gi-Oh It. You know. Yu-Gi-Oh Well, Mike, I mean, we're. We're 32 minutes in. I feel like this is a good stopping point. I think the other topic I wanted to cover is probably more like another 20 or 30 minutes, and I am exhausted and hungry. My dinner just got delivered. So this is a great. What'd you get? What'd you get for dinner? Italian food. Yu-Gi-Oh So Italian, Mexican, trying to think what else. I could pretty much, you know, burgers and fry. Like, there's certain foods that I could eat anytime. Yu-Gi-Oh Perfectly happy. Italian fits in that. Yu-Gi-Oh I don't usually buy Italian food because I feel like I can make it almost as good and far, far cheaper, but it's been a. I've had a difficult week, and my wife's been sick. My back. I lost. I threw up my back, basically. So I was like, I'm just gonna order whatever. So what'd you get? Italian food's very broad. Are you. Yu-Gi-Oh Yu-Gi-Oh So I just got an Italian sandwich, which is. Do you even have Italian sandwiches down there? Yu-Gi-Oh Probably not the real thing, though. This is called the real Italian and some pasta and stuff. But, Yu-Gi-Oh we have fake Italian down here. Yu-Gi-Oh we do have some good barbecue. You know this. You have real barbecue, and we really don't. You gotta. You gotta. We gotta do a part two of that. Yu-Gi-Oh I'd love to. All right, Mike, everybody. Check out baseball collector on YouTube. Thanks for joining me, Mike. You bet. Man, am I better than Chris. Same as. Oh, better, Better looking, better. Better spoken, better collection. Yu-Gi-Oh I'll make sure to tell him that next time. No, Mike, thanks for having me. I appreciate it. Hey, thanks, everybody, for watching.