Grading 201: Why Pack-Fresh Cards Still Miss a 10 | Mike Baker

Really what it's come down to too is there's so many parallels and varieties of the same number, the same guy, the same look of card. >> All they would take is one little serial code. Every other industry uses and does for identification of their products that cards don't. >> The kind of myth that we've talked about before you you pull a card from a pack and it's automatic 10 and it's just not. >> Not every 10 is created equal service sort of >> and honestly we get more non-tens than we do tens. Welcome to the Collector Nation podcast. Here on the Collector Nation Network, whether you're chasing Grails or calling bluffs, we take you inside the hobby. Here's your host, Ryan Alford. What's up, guys? Welcome to Collector Nation here on the Collector Nation Network. Hey, one of my favorite segments we've been doing about every month, last few months, we'll call it that. It's not often enough. He is NBA. He is Mike Baker. What's happening, Mike? Where are we today? I know you're preparing for a lot of things coming up. Let's get the lay of the land. >> Yeah, a real quick snapshot. Basically, just, you know, hitting the the travel schedule pretty hard. you know, baseball season started a couple months ago and uh it's always bringing out a lot of shows going into uh going into the the uh the balance going into the national basically, you know, like everyone all the shows lead up to like one the one big event in uh the end of July. And so uh May's been really strong for us. We went to Dallas, we were in Las Vegas, we were in Pasadena, I leave for New York tomorrow. Uh we're going to do Heritage Auctions next week on Tuesday. So um no week for the worry. It's go time. All roads lead to the national, >> right? >> That might be a little promo clip. I don't know. >> It feels that way though, right? I mean, everybody I talk to is kind of like national, you know, like it's all yada yada yada the national and not necessarily because the other things don't matter. They certainly do, but >> I think it all kind of that's the crescendo at least uh through the mid half of the year, which is hard to believe. >> Yeah, it's it is hard to believe. That's one thing I've learned. you know, you book all these shows and you kind of lose track of time and before you know it, like a whole month's just whizz by you, you know, so it's it's crazy. What's the state of grading here in the end of May like both for NBA obviously preparing for things you know through your personal lens but maybe like you know headline recap you know what are you hearing feeling I mean it every number I see Jim Rate and everything else is like how many millions can we grade a month but uh other than velocity and volume what else is happening >> well I think we're all like experiencing like this unbelievable market. Uh, you know, the WBY 101 Black just sold for $5 million, little over $5 million. It's like the every time you look on Instagram or see, you know, uh, comps, it's it's been like a a week and it seems like it's going up stratospherically or whatever. So, everything's so hyperbolic. you know, we're just trying to, you know, for for NBA's point of view, we're just trying to keep doing what we what our our core mission is, which is basically to keep our steady consistency, you know, keep the transparency, you know, communicate. We're going to all the shows to, you know, kiss babies and shake some hands and bum gump the whole bit and really introduce all of our products and services and um, you know, and keep scaling. You know, like the last time we spoke, we talked about, you know, scaling. We need more people. We're hiring, actively hiring, trying to find, you know, right people. It's it's challenging, you know, I mean, the market's so hot, the people that have the experience are making a a great deal of money on that side of the table. So to get them to move to Oregon to, you know, be a part of the squad, it's it's not as as easy as putting a, you know, an ad up there and everybody wants to come. So, you know, it's the the the experience quotient is something that we're heavily invested in. So, I don't want to hire anybody. I want to hire somebody. >> Yeah. >> So, and that that's the goal. So, we'll see how that shakes out. >> Yep. >> Yeah. Man, I hate to mix like business with business, but I'm going to do it. You know, we got limited time. And, you know, look, we're both transparent people, but it may I've been working on some things, you know, started down this path of software for, you know, I own a digital agency. I've been in marketing and couldn't help myself like how many tools can I create for my own store, right? And so I've gone down the whole rabbit hole with this thing learning and you know all the disconnected pieces and parts of technology and grading and everything like that. I we need like this central place of truth in the hobby for like graded and non-graded cards. Like there's no scan code on every card. There's no barcode on every card. >> There's no universal ID. >> Yeah. >> And you know I think that would be a worthy thing to solve. at some point. And I don't know, it's probably a pipe dream on some level, but it just feels like if every card was identified, we sure could sort of remove a lot of the the negative things with, you know, authenticity. And I I know you can always have fakes and things like that. I want to say would go away completely, >> but identification of all cards in things that I'm doing, that's a real challenge. >> It's ridiculous. It's it's I I think that's a big that's one of the the bogging down type of things that are you know we're experiencing um every grading service experience title is matter if it's a refractor or it's not a refractor that's a big value difference you know and and even doing it remote and having computers look at stuff and all that stuff it's there's got to be a a human verification uh quotient on that whether it's at the beginning or the end. Yeah. And usually at the beginning for grading services, it's important so that the card doesn't end up in plastic and it slows it further down because it was mistitled and needs to be cracked out of the holder, relabeled, re-encapsulated, you know, and start kind of starts this whole process again. So it's a big deal. We've just added actually um machine learning to our system. So now we can take images of cards and it automatically updates the uh titling um with the grade and certification number and then pulls the the pricing data from uh Vintage Card Pricer VCP. So it's like a one-stop shop and it's really helpful. And that just that one thing that we just implemented a couple weeks ago really made us a lot more efficient and a lot more accurate and it's still being you know human verified um at the beginning and at the end to ensure that there's you know no uh no send back so to speak. You know, Topps does it a little bit. They'll put X for fact. They started to do it. Why not put an identification on what the card is on the back? >> I I don't know. I mean, it's there's always like the checklist that seems that every manufacturer has. I think it's really getting the, you know, the checklist out as soon as the manufacturer has it and it could be uploaded by the grading services or whatever, you know, software packages that are out there being used. Um, that would be really helpful if the manufacturers got together and said, "Hey, here's our 2026, you know, Prism or TOPS list and you can just upload it and then when they come in, you know, really what it's come down to, too, is there's so many parallels and varieties." >> Yeah. >> Of the same number, the same guy, the same look of card and it's just a different color. It's numbered differently. And those things are challenging uh as well. So, >> all it would take is one little serial code. I I have to >> Yeah, >> I I I'm not trying to say it's conspiracy conspiracy, >> but there has to be there has to look it's too easy and it's got to be hard for them to put that code on the back would some it would make their life easier. I mean, I know that they know what they do, but they have how do they identify it? There's probably something but there's a mystery code like embedded in every card or something or some some fanatics NFC chip that Ruben developed and didn't told anybody. I don't know. But why not? >> That's a That's something every every other industry uses and does for identification of their products, but cards don't. >> I don't I don't know. I mean, you could put a two-dimensional barcode there. There are so many neat things that are available. Um that's a question. Hey, if enough people talk about it, things do change, you know. So you maybe this is the start of getting some of the manufacturers to like you know one up this or some of the little there's a lot of independent manufacturers too >> you know um that are actually pretty savvy you know because they don't have the bureaucracy and the kind of way it's always been done and they're you know doing different things it's kind of fun >> I understand okay more cost for the chip or the things like that okay I get it >> but a print you're already printing letters on there to print a ndigit >> even if it was just a parallel identifier fire like >> well you're talking basically like if every card turned into like a buyback where it has like a a serial code identifier certification number identified to it. So yeah I mean even like a QR a small QR would work off off your off your camera. Everyone's using machine learning or AI or whatever it is to interpret what the card is but even those have their limitations relative to identifying parallels and and unique you know uh number of cards and whatnot. So it's a challenge. It is. I'll tell you what's a challenge and that's getting a NBA perfect 10, PSA 10, CGC. That's what's hard. Pokemon easier to grade. >> Um, some Pokemon is easier to grade. Um, having the blue or gold back on on the back, you can identify chipping on the edges and corners fairly easy. Y >> um, some of the new like Dragon Ball and some of the one piece and identifying centering parameters um, it can be challenging. So you have to, you know, determine what you're willing according to the standard that you have and then, you know, image those and use those as references. So when you see a batch that kind of are here and there or maybe a micro micrometer meter off, millimeter off, they're here, left or right, and you're able to identify that. So um yeah, we have actually some machine learning stuff that's helping us um identify centering at a much faster pace and giving us a reference to work with and then identifying that's learning as we do it. So it's pretty it's very helpful and some of these cards definitely need the the assistance. You know the on the front you're looking for the edge chipping. So you actually see kind of the some of the holographic behind it whitening. You can see like uh some of that shows up. Also on the front, you're looking for like bends or what I consider to be like a light frictional packware. So like when the card's in the recesses of the of the pack itself and it's moving around, sometimes that those little, you know, movements can cause little subtle factory sealed things. That's why the kind of myth that we've talked about before, you you pull a card from a pack and it's automatic 10 and it's just not. >> No. So you you know if you can get past the centering and the print defect and you know dimples that things that come from the factory manufactured that way um and if you can get past all that then you have you know edge chipping or corner shipping just from it floating inside the pack and you know how fast did you rip the pack? Did you do it carefully? And even if you do it carefully sometimes you don't get lucky. Let me ask you this. With your digital uh service, >> is there any time and if you already do this then pardon my ignorance, but >> that you would do authentication digitally? >> Yeah. Well, for for for third party, we're not gated. It's just for raw card submissions that we're gated. Okay. >> So, for third party, so if you're going to submit your PSA cards, SGC cards, back cards, we we take as many as as our systems designed to take that. So, basically a third party is a grading service. We call them third parties. So the third party holder. So it's just a general term to describe a grading service. So a third party holder coming in would be a graded holder from one of the companies that we that we um provide stickering service for. So that would include PSA, SGC. >> So putting like the diamond the upgrade on that the uh not every 10 is created equal service sort of. >> That's correct. Yeah. Yep. Yeah. And and honestly, we get more non tens than we do tens, >> you know. So, this service really finds its happy home in N. Nine's a big one. Okay. >> Yeah. Nine's a big one, too, because PSA doesn't have a 9.5. >> Let's talk autographs. Certification, authentication, and grading of the autographs. >> So, from NBA's point of view, relative to autographs, we do not provide, you know, uh autograph authentication services. So the autograph would have to come from the factory for us to grade it like this on card or the stickered auto. We could provide you know auto grading services. Um with that we actually just launched that part of our service uh within the last month. >> So it's been baited. We got some great cards at Tom Brady Contenders that went out like a 810 that'll be probably in an upcoming uh heritage auction. >> Nice. Um yeah, so autograph grading, you know, the uh the skips, you know, pressure, flow, all that stuff matters. You know, some people, some grading services are are really if it goes off the sticker or if it goes off the card, those are considered flaws. Skips or thin, you know, feathered part of the signature can be looked on as a flaw as well. So, not every autograph is a 10 as well. So if it just because it comes out of a pack doesn't necessarily mean that the signer who has probably hundreds of cards in front of them, every card is going to be like the first one he did. It's more like a snowflake there. Each one has its own unique little attributes and whatnot. >> How's this one look to the eye? >> I think it's a 9/10 off off the Yeah, those are also the normal grades for most of the cars provided that the autograph doesn't go off the card and little subtleties like that. >> Do y'all grade how good their signature is? Like the guy, it always freaks me out. It's like, you know, some kid has been dying for your auto the entire time and you know, you do two letters or something and I don't know. >> Yeah. >> Well, it depends on the setting. You know, some athletes just have that's like kind of like their brand. >> Yeah. No, I get that. I get that. >> It's just more what it looks like. It's Yeah. >> Yeah. you know, I guess the setting again like if if you're catching someone like walking or at a restaurant and it's not like in a in the proper setting where he's autographing, you'll get like a we call it incidental autograph >> where it may be 100% legit, but there not be there may not be an exemplar to it. And that's why a lot of authentication services may tend not to authenticate it because they just don't have exemplars representing it. So, they're not saying it's bad. They're just saying they that in the normal setting, that's not what they have to be able to uh determine whether or not it's something they're willing to put their brand on. And we don't provide anything like that. So we're that that gets into the world of like vintage authentication where it's not seen in person when the autograph's done. So you know with every card there's always going to be associated you know uh from the factory cut look and a lot of it depends on how does it go into the border area. That's where it's considered more of a flaw than if it just has a slight you know factory origin type of that's the way the card comes. That's definitely where in my opinion >> that's the other corner like diagonal. >> Yep. >> Same thing. >> So now we're getting out of the nine conversation because there's two corners that are showing. Now we got three. >> Oh. >> So that that one's the worst one of the ball so far. >> Okay. No sit back. >> You're looking at a five. >> Is it that bad, Mike? Really? >> No. I'm not. >> All right. I just B's got to go get me some Kleenex. That's a five, you know. my Bo Jackson. It's numbered out of 50 though. Hey. >> Yeah. No, that's killer. I I love um Bo Jackson cards and whatnot. Absolutely. >> I've got a cool one that's a PSA 10 91 upper deck >> with a nine autograph. I don't know why they had to give it a nine autograph. It's the only one I've seen that's a PSA 10. And it's a it's a >> It was not that factory. It was after the fact. >> Okay. >> So, it's pretty cool. Pretty rare. >> Yeah. We just uh we just black diamond uh 87 tops Tiffany Bo Jackson. >> So PSA 10. It was pretty it was pretty rocking. You don't see those very often. >> Here's a fun one. >> Die cuts. >> Yeah. I mean these are impossible for me when I'm looking at them to go all right. I mean obviously if there's like a obvious like rip or something, but >> like how do you judge these die cuts? >> Well, I mean the same way you would uh any other card. You're just looking for the areas, you know, you're looking at the edges. So, even if it's diecut, it's more like a Pokemon card. So, you're looking at a rounded >> rounded corner and, you know, you're looking for associated, you know, edge chipping, corner chipping, whatever it may be, uh, on the card the same as you would, you know, it's a little bit more involved, too. some of the EXs, um, you know, the late 90s EX2000s and things like that, they have they're on made out of plastic and you've got real cardboard on top of the plastic. So, there's areas you have to look at it a little bit more thoroughly um, with it because there's more areas where because they're diecut, >> there's more areas of kind of temperament um, in terms of what chipping and little issues could pop from. >> This is kind of all flight, which is a little strange. >> Yeah. getting getting some of the cards that refract like this with the uh the lighting can be challenging seeing it uh digitally too. You know, >> that little fiber right there at the top, the white is that suspect? >> It looks like it's part of the card's print, but >> Yeah, like it's one of those con >> like the little stars or >> Yeah. part of the >> That happens sometimes, too, where there's a perfect white part of a print that hits a corner or something. >> Yeah. And it's actually part of the card, not >> from cornerware. Yes. >> Exactly. That's why you can't you can't go through, you know, you can't just zip through things. You have to like look at the card, you know. So, you got to be careful when you autographs. Yeah. Scratches. I mean, there's especially with these like refractive surfaces. >> I did it on the the top loader. >> Okay. Okay. There you go. Yeah. >> But I've learned the hard way on the car. >> It feels soft and everything and it's got like sandpaper, you know. >> Exactly. It just immediately screws. >> That's a good tip though, if you're listening. Don't just assume your soft t-shirt or whatever you have is okay. >> Yeah. Yeah. No, it's it's not. >> What do you recommend? What do you wipe with? Terry, >> like a micro a microfiber >> microfiber. Okay. Yep. >> Yeah. >> Mike Baker, guess the grade. >> Yeah. >> 99 Pokemon. >> Okay. >> Moving along. Obviously recognizing you can't see surface but completely. So you stop right there. You see the um the the the chipping at the very top. >> Yeah. >> At the top, say top left area. Um >> you'll see like little little fine chips at the top edge right there. >> Yeah. >> And that's a that's a that's a flaw. >> And would that be like assuming nothing else major that's dropping to a nine or worse? Yeah, I would say it's probably like more like in the 89 conversation you right off the bat just with that. >> So, not even talking about what the centering looks like, any scratches on the surface or any chipping on the back. That is a that's a major or that's a bigger flaw than just a light like little tip or whatever. So, that one looks way more It looks It looks more stable. Yes. >> Yeah. Okay. Zoomed in, baby. >> Yeah. There you go. Oh, you had it. >> See those little specks? >> Yeah, I do. >> Yep. That's it. That's what I'm talking about. >> We'll do a quick scan of the outside. >> Looks pretty y >> just a a light little skew. So, that would prevent it from being in the flawless category for sure. But, >> okay. So, you got that one corner. >> Well, there you go there, too. So, yeah. >> Okay. That's that's now there there in lies what we were talking about earlier about is it hard to grade Pokemon. Um and with with the blue see there again. So right there with what I saw on the front and what I see on the back I'm like thinking eight. >> All right. >> Um >> do we want to do a reveal? Are you ready for that to be the final answer? >> Yep. >> Are you gonna be surprised? >> I'm honestly never Oh, there we go. Yeah. >> There it is, folks. >> Yeah. Exactly what he said it would be. >> Yeah, >> it's an eight. >> Yep. >> Yeah. >> Yeah. I mean, the good thing is is that, you know, PSA's greater saw what is what we're talking about. So, and when you add up, you know, a couple corner hits or ch light chips on the back with the whitening on the front um the missing the missing yellow stock on the front, I think that totalitywise because the card still presents nicely. It's still a centered card. You know, I'm sure if you looked at it, there's there might be some surface scratches. I don't know. Obviously, that's the one thing that you have to see in person. So, but yeah, judging from what we just talked about, I think eight is the the correct assessment. >> Mike, let's do our normal uh we know you'll be at the national be doing live grading there, right? I mean, the whole team like all all jazz that's coming up the end of July. We'll be there. Mike will be there. You might see us both there. I might be there just bugging him and telling him, "Hey, can you grade this really quick? Really quick. Take this to the back, Mike. drop some details, man. >> Well, for the national actually, we'll be doing uh on-site grading and uh at our booth, we have a 20 by20 corporate. Um so, we'll be taking submissions. We'll have a lot of display cases showing a lot of our products and services and you'll be able to meet pretty much everybody. We're doing the the actual encapsulation and grading offsite uh within the within the national, but they gave us a big office to conduct to have the air compressor, to have the machines, and all that good stuff. So, um, so our booth will be basically a customer service, drop off submissions, talk about, uh, what we're doing, how we're doing it. So, uh, really looking forward to that. It's a week-long extravaganza. Um, that'll be fun. It'll be good one to, you know, check the box for sure. >> I love it, man. NBA Diamonds NBA. What's the website? Drop that in the social handle real quick, Mike. >> Yeah, basically it's grading. NBA and it'sgrading. NBA for uh Instagram. So, we rebranded from uh NBA Diamond to Grading.NBA. It's our new website handle. We're under, you know, we're doing a whole new uh redesigning our website. So, hopefully by the National, we might have it up. Um that's our push. So, looking forward to announcing some cool partnerships going into the national as well. Some great cards that we've reviewed um and stickered and holdered and we'll be pumping those uh leading up to the national as well. So, it'll be it'll be a fun time. >> I love it, man. Look, this is where the hobby needs to go. Transparency out there in the front leading the company, showing you why they do things, how they do it, coming on here, giving education. We need more of that in the hobby. We need more Mike Bakers. Love you, brother. We'll see you next time. Hey guys, we'll see you next time right here, Collector Nation. See you then. Thanks for tuning in to the show. Be sure to follow us on your Goto podcast platform and catch the full video episode over on YouTube. Visit us at collectornation.com and follow Ryan on Instagram at Ryan Alford. Now get out there and collect yours.