Hobby Chain Stores Spell Trouble For Local Card Stores? (ie. Card Vault By Tom Brady, Dave And Adams); Discussing Topps New Incentive: Three Kings Baseball Card; Plus Another Round Of Quiz Show!

You're listening to Cards to the Moon, a podcast about trading cards from both a collector and investor perspective. We hope you'll stick around for the ride as we take a deep dive into the state of the hobby, share some hot takes, hopefully some useful advice and fun stories along the way. Hey guys, welcome back to Cards to the Moon. This is episode 322 and my name is Clark from 5cardguys.com and at 5cardguys on Instagram, YouTube and on Facebook. Co-hosting with me as usual is Hyung who is at ChoHyung on IG and YouTube as well. And Johnny's back, you can find him on Instagram at TradeUatRecess. Alright, off the top today, I wanted to get your thoughts on this brand new incentive from Topps to anyone who acquires what they say is the trifecta of top cards for baseball players and that is the players MLB Rookie Debut Patch Auto, right? Number 2, of course the Bowman Chrome First Super Fract Auto and the Topps Chrome Rookie Super Fracture Auto rounding the top 3. If you do have all 3, Topps will be giving you the 3 Kings Baseball Card with the design incorporating the original photos from those 3 cards I just mentioned as well as the RC First Bowman and Rookie Debut Patch Emblems. One more thing to note, claims must be submitted within 10 years of the release of a player's Rookie Debut Patch Auto. So you got a 10 year timeline to redeem to get that 3 Kings Baseball Card. Just going to turn it over to you guys, initial thoughts on this incentive. That's crazy, who is collecting these things? As a collector, it's pretty crazy to acquire 1 Super Fracture but all 3 is something else for sure. All 3 is crazy, that's insane. Well, I'm glad you asked because we were just talking about this off air. Matt Kerns Cards, I think he is also the host of the Sports Cards CEO Podcast. So he's got deep pockets, I'm not sure what he does for a living but I've seen his Instagram and he's got multiple Super Fractures and he actually completed this trifecta for Junior Caminero which is insane and Jackson Churio as well. So he was just gifted that 3 Kings Baseball Card from Junior Caminero himself the other day. That's pretty cool. Here's my two cents on it. I think it's one ridiculous to even try to do that but I do think it's unique and cool and I'll kind of draw a comparison with baseball for instance. Baseball at the surface level is just the game between offense and defense but everybody knows if you love baseball, if you're really deep engraved into the game, there's games within a game and it continues. So this is the way I see it from a fanatic standpoint that it's just another way to have a game within a game. I think it's very strategic from a business side of things because this is what we were talking about of how much value fanatics can create without necessarily spending money by creating more experiences within the hobby itself. So the game within a game within a game or whatever they say that this is valuable because from a collector standpoint now, if you really think about it, some people might be very interested if they did pull a Super Fracture of a certain player to try to acquire that. It turns the game but on the flip side, how does fanatics benefit? Or I wouldn't even say fanatics, I would say the whole sports card market because what happens is there becomes a lot more demand on these super super rare cards. So this is what type, these types of things basically create value or demand where before there wasn't too much demand potentially because now if you have this as a thing with an incentive that's very cool to let's just say Kern's cards, it would create more demand from people like that who want to collect in that space or sees that at value. So if you pull a Super Fracture or debut patch, now it's not whether or not, hey, who's going to buy this for X amount of dollars, there's a different avenue of why someone would purchase that, right? So I think from an overall hobby standpoint, I don't mind it because I'm worried more about okay, as soon as all the value, true value kind of collapses, where does our heart and that that's the discussion of what we talked about junk wax 2.0 I would never even think that it would be a junk wax era because we've learned a lot of things from it plus there's technology that prevents things from happening so but I think in general, it is a great way to add value to the general, I guess a marketplace where there's sustained value. So I don't mind these little games and the only kind of person that can move the needle on this is someone like fanatics, right? So that's that's my two cents. Yeah. You know, when I when I first saw the posts on Instagram, I mean, as a as a smaller measly collector, not not a big whale, your initial reaction was like, yeah, like, who cares? It's just the rich of the rich. Like I think most of the comments you'll see on Instagram is this is for the rich. Like what? This is not news. But you know what? Hey, Kessin Hura, get your autograph hand ready, man. We're coming for you. Yeah, it's still possible. You could still do like these, you know, if you if you happen to be a fan of some random dude that's not Junior Caminero, it's like a minor leaguer, you know, that never made it to the show. You could still get this done. So I think like it was Hyung was saying, the game within the game, yeah, it's not as relevant in terms of like the chase and hitting hitting the lottery. This is not this is not a chase in terms of money value for small collectors. This is clearly it's a it's a big money move. But the game I think it's I think it's fine. People say it's kind of gimmicky, whatever you're creating chases within chases. I think that's totally fine. From a smaller collector point of view, like I said, I think a lot of people will see this as I think the general public will see this as, ah, this is kind of not news is for rich people. Yeah, fine. But from Fanatic's point of view, in terms of business, like if you really are trying to 10x the hobby, you have to continually create massive buzz in marketing, whether that. You know, whether that's for the general public or not, regardless, you got to create massive buzz. Yeah. If you have big collectors making big moves, because every day when we look at our Instagram, I'll be I'll be the first to admit most of the posts that I get excited for is seeing like Shine 150 buy this million dollar card. It's like, hey, let me check this out, rather than some other Instagram or that buys like a 50 cent card. Like it's obviously the big things that move your interest, right? Like there's this guy. I don't know if you guys have heard of him. He's like this new YouTuber, Mama Cards, and he's like quickly rising up the ranks. And the reason why his content sparks so much interest is because this guy's like money bags. He's like another Shine 150. He came out of nowhere. He's really interested in sports cards. He never was before. And now he's at shows. Any Kobe card that's like 150 grand on the spot, he's like negotiating and he's buying it. And he finds another one. Jordan Ardo. That's like 100 grand. He's like, how much you want for it? 90? Handshake deal. Done. And his content is like skyrocketing because that's what people want to see. So Fanatics is smart. They're going to want to create more buzz, more YouTube content, more social media content around big money people making transactions like that guy that has a three junior Caminero, the three kings. And he gets he gets it directly from Junior, right? Like that's the content that people generally want to see whether or not that happens to them. Yeah. Is besides the point for Fanatics in terms of a business move, big picture, trying to 10X the hobby, trying to get people excited about the hobby. If you do see big people, famous people, actual ballplayers transacting in the hobby, that's like influence 101, right? If Brad Pitt buys this type of sweater, I'm like, yeah, I'm going to go buy that sweater. I mean, that's, that's, it's, it's, you know, it's like celebrities and big people that move the needle. So I mean, from a business standpoint, in terms of the, what Fanatics is trying to do in growing the hobby, I think this, it makes sense. And how you want to take it as a, as a general collector. It's up to you. But I, yeah. Yeah. I mean, it's not necessarily for us, but yeah, I'm fine with it. Both awesome points. You know, I was trying to brainstorm, how can I like skyrocket my YouTube page? And I guess I just got to buy six-figure cards. That's the only way to do it. Right. Start, start ripping flawless. Boom. That's right. I think that'll do the trick. And that's so hilarious. He kind of took my point about, you know, initially thinking it's for the elite, right? That's my first thought as well. And I'm like, this is cool, but obviously it's never for me. But then what you mentioned, John, about going after the lower tier players, you know, you like Greg, Greg Kessinger. You've heard of him, right? No, obviously you didn't because he's, his MLB debut patch is like 1300 bucks sold the other day. You know, so his MLB debut patch, that's probably the most you're going to spend on his one of three cards. But the thing is you got to make sure that they have like a Topps Chrome Super or a first Bowman Chrome Super because not every rookie gets one, right? So do your research first before you go trying to get all three and then realizing there's no Topps Chrome Super factor for a certain rookie. But right. I take back the Kessinger because I forgot he does have a debut patch. No, he does. He does. Kessinger does. Oh, he does? Yes. Yeah. I just did a quick Google search. No way. Because he's, he's from before the debut patches came out. I guess they did some retro. Maybe it's a different Kessinger. Grey Kessinger. G-R-A-E. I was just looking for her. No, you're saying Kessinger. I'm sorry. I'm talking about, I'm talking about Kessinger. Our boy Kessinger. No, it was before. Yeah. It was before that time. He's still mashing. I'm just saying. In the minors. He is. In the minors. He might, he might take another sniff at the, in the big leagues. I'm rooting for Kessinger. I have, I have a lot of pink refractor PSA 10s still, so. Yeah. You guys are highly optimistic. Anyways, yeah, love those ideas. And I also like your point, Hsiang, about, you know, if you have a super refractor, like you just ripped and you have one and you know someone's going for the chase, like a rich money bags guy, you have a little bit of leverage, you know? Maybe they want, how badly do they want that three kings card? It's added value in that sense too. So there's a few different plays you could have out there just based on this three kings tops incentive. But yeah, I think we're all aligned. That's kind of a cool idea. Not for everyone, but a cool idea nonetheless. Okay. Let's move on to hobby headlines. So I reposted on my IG stories at five card guys, something that card vault by Tom Brady posted recently and it's that they are expanding very quickly with seven brand new locations opening soon. Actually they just opened their New York city location I believe last week or the week before and Carl Anthony Towns was there to help launch the card vault by Tom Brady location in NYC. Other locations to be open soon include Las Vegas, Dallas, Minneapolis, Palo Alto, Sacramento and San Francisco. Now put that aside because David Adams, when I was in New York city for the second Fanatics Fest, I went to their NYC location. Obviously we know their original location is in Buffalo, New York, one of the biggest card stores in the country, on the continent. So they already have a couple of stores out there and closer to home, I interviewed John Amendola of Mintinc recently and they're about to open a new location in Ajax, which is a half hour out from Toronto. So all of that got me thinking, with the hobby growing as it is, do you guys think the expansion of these hobby shops that are essentially becoming chain stores now, are they the future of the hobby landscape? And if you think so, will this be bad for other local card shops or even for other retailers, bigger retailers like Walmart and Target? Or do you think there's room for all these kinds of stores in the hobby? First and foremost, I think hobby shops need to evolve, period. It's been like that for the past, I would say at least 5 years, 5-10 years where it totally changed and I know there's a lot of good that come out of hobby shops and we have great memories and I'm all for supporting local hobby shops, but what you're seeing with the Tom Brady vaults, the mintings, the chain stores that are growing, they are evolving. Because the whole market, the whole hobby has been evolving. So the services that are required now, the demand from the public, the hobbyists like us, such as let's just say grading, like a regular hobby shop wouldn't offer that, right? Because so much has changed in the PSA landscape. But now these card shops are like Tom Brady, they're seeing it as more of a, okay, how do we merge the physical and the digital aspect of it? Because if you look at revenue, there's breaks, there's, you know, different things like individual slab sales, and then you mix in stuff like trade nights where it gets people in the store, but they're marketing it from the digital side, you're only aware of it because they're so present online. So it's this mixture of Yeah, you got to, it works, it's definitely going to work because the hobby is growing, and they need distribution partners, right? Then people need to go to places, you're either going to retail Walmart targets, or your local card shop, or most people go on Facebook groups for online breaks, right? So the opportunity is there as a brick and mortar store owner, you're going to either have to accept that, or be stuck in the old way of thinking, saying the hobby sucks. We are old school hobby shop. I think that won't work. I think what they are doing is they're innovative entrepreneurs, they're visionaries, they see opportunity, where a lot of people don't see. And with that said, there's obviously concerns, right? But like I said, those those concerns can't be addressed until they actually kind of manifest, right? So that's, that's why as we go as we grow, people are going to take chances, they see the opportunities, they're going to grow, and then there's going to be more problems saying this, this sucks. So we have to address this issue. But that's the evolution of the hobby. So for me, can they coexist? Absolutely. I think it's imperative. I think you can't coexist if you're just a digital brand. Right, right. I think there's this hybrid of digital physical that works in today's society and economics that makes sense from a business standpoint, but also makes sense from a marketing standpoint. So yes, I love what they're doing. Because like I said, what other options are there right now show me a better option, I would love to go into a vault just to check it out. I don't really do it here. There's no option to do that. So it's a matter of catering to our hobby, really, in what the demands are, that's, that's being created. Makes sense to me. What about you, john? You know, when you look at the mid 80s to the mid 90s, and there was like that big bubble that happened, where there's like an insatiable demand for sports cards, which kind of similar to the present day, you'd have all of these local card shops popping up everywhere. And he didn't sustain because I've, you know, ended up being this sort of bubble. Fast forward to today, and some people might see it the same way. But I think because the the fact that fanatics is involved, and this is looking like not just a bubble, but sustainable growth, like this demand is really going up, and it looks like it's sort of here to stay. And as a result, you're seeing these bigger brands, expanding, making these giant franchises, right, you'll see, David Adams, you'll see me, I think you I don't know if you mentioned, but you mentioned in the notes, like the maybe fanatics opening a store, right? You know, card vaults opening, like, see these bigger sort of known brands now. And, you know, Jeff Wilson, if they start expanding to all the major cities, I mean, which we could possibly expect, that will be trouble for the the mom and pop local shop, right? I mean, you'll still get your customers in your immediate area. But in terms of the the big picture, yeah, that's probably true. Because I mean, this is the same as Costco coming along when Walmart's came along, and the convenience store business, which used to be fairly lucrative back in the day, is no longer lucrative, you're only popular in your exact neighborhood, right? So I think that's pretty much what's going to happen here. And kind of to young's point, for some of these LCS is, you're going to you're going to have to adapt, you can still be the old school. You know, you walk in there, and it's just crammed with meaningless products that doesn't really excite, you know, for some of these old school shops. Yeah, realistically, the reason the three of us would actually walk in there is number one, because it's right near my house. And number two, I just need to quickly and go and get a couple of mag loaders. Right? I'm not walking. Let's be real. It's it's to rent. Or that. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. If they happen to have product, right. So a lot of a lot of times they don't have what you're looking for, right? You're not going in there to window shop, you're not walking there for the excitement of like a great experience. It's not going to be like that compared to walking into like Dave and Adams in New York, it's like, Whoa, it's like, this place is beautiful. Look at all the look at the product they have on display. Look at the individual so single cards like they have. But you know, I'm just thinking of wills latest purchase, but like, flatty boba shot, dual auto, like there's things that interest you in the window shopping experience. So these local card shops, I think is going to become your local convenience store, your, you know, in Canada, we have, you know, Home Depot sort of took over the big brand, but you still have your local home hardware, you know, your local hardware shops that still cater to the neighborhood. So I think that's where this is headed. So in terms of the big picture, are these local card shops sort of in a bit of a pickle? Yeah, possibly, I think. I think so unless they start adjusting and doing their best to change with the times, right? Yeah, no, I agree with you. I think for some of these local card shops that have been around for a while, they're in trouble for sure. Because I don't have much confidence that some of these owners who are probably older in age two, right? They've been doing it for decades. I don't know what their ability is to evolve and to adapt. Maybe they don't want to maybe they don't want to have that energy to do it. And, and unfortunately, for them, it looks like the writing is kind of on the wall in the next 235 years. So unless you evolve as an LCS owner, I think you're in trouble. But I also see there's potential, right? Like, I'm aligned with you that the you know, almost like this franchising of LCS is right with these chain stores is inevitable as the hobby grows, because you got to meet the demand. And wherever there's increasing demand, there's money to be made. And you're going to have people that are going to take opportunities to to profit off of the current market landscape, right? So it's true of sports cards. And that's not surprising to me at all. But if I see more the potential for these LCS to be like these restaurants, let's let's think about the restaurant industry. You know, I love McDonald's. I love that any city I can go to if I feel like a Big Mac, I can go and get a Big Mac. And I know what their service is like, I know what their standard is like, it's going to be like that for a lot of these like hardball by Tom Brady stores. And David Adams, you just kind of have an expectation of what it's going to be like. And that's why you like going to these places. But you know, with restaurants, if it's a destination place, like if you hear about the reviews, like people are willing to go there, or if I'm close by to that city, I'm willing to drop by this boutique card shop, because they offer this kind of experience. I mean, you let the customers come to you. That's a great business model to write. I think you got to figure it out as a card shop owner, what that is, like, what can I offer that? You know, these retail outlets, retail stores, card stores can't, then that's where I will start to think, like, what can I do? Obviously, having a social media presence will help as well to garner that attention. But yeah, I think I think part of that is going to be necessary for these LCS owners. I was gonna say Clark, what what would they have to do to let the people know that they are special? That's the key, right? And I think that's where the the old school mindset thinking doesn't exist. I know local card stores within our area, that I guarantee you, no one knows they exist. Right? But they I go there and I compared to the bigger, like for one games, let's just say they're they're bigger, bigger, I guess card shop in the Toronto area. Yeah, when I went to like collectors dream, I would pull like, crazy stuff. They have boxes that like, I was like, you still have this box. But now it's less and less because they're not buying as much but no one would know. No one would know about collectors dreams. You know what I mean? So it's like, that's where I see local card shops really struggling is to adapt to forget the card market. We're just saying basic functionality as a business in today's society. What are the fundamentals that need to be had? And that's where that's what we're talking about. It's like this basic stuff. And you go back to local card shops like mint ink, right? When john started that he wasn't a massive franchise or mint ink wasn't this massive. It was a local card shop. That's what his focus was. But it evolves, right? You you realize what the public demands what they're good at what they could be profitable unsustainable at, and now where they would invest based on where it's going. And you see it, you could be a local card shop that ends up becoming someone bigger, because you've taken the initiative to, to kind of evolve and, you know, see where the market's going. So I see both sides of it. And I agree with you guys where they're there. I think there will always be a demand for local card shops. But like I said, even from a distribution standpoint, and we all know, distribution, it's like the person that gives you a million dollar peel versus the person that gives you a $10,000 PO, who are you going to cater your attention to in time? Who are you going to bend the rules to or whatever? That's what happens when you have distributors. And when you have bigger stores that have these allocations, for instance, if you're a bigger breaker, you have allocations compared to a different local card shop, because I know that was the issue with local card shops, they had no allocation of product. So it's like stuff like that is that's, we've always seen that, especially during these last five years for local card shops, it's allocations like, okay, tops, Chrome came out, do you have it? Oh, we didn't get any. What? Well, what do you mean? Like, that's the latest release. So it's like stuff like that, where, sure, I think, yeah, there's a lot of things that need to evolve. But I think, to your point, and to your initial question of like, what do local card shops have to do? Like, part of it is go digital, we already kind of talked about that, right? Because then you expand your customer base, and it's just a local. And then in terms of distribution, or in terms of getting the product, that's another challenge, of course. But what can you do to put yourself on the map in front of a fanatics rep or tops rep, you got to increase your brand somehow, right? Like, honestly, if I was in Ohio, I might stop by card collector to store, just because I know what he, you know, he has a big following. And you're like, Oh, I see his content all the time, be kind of cool to check out his place. And I know he only has one store in, I believe it's Ohio, right? So it's, you know, if you increase your brand, a lot of good things can happen if you have a lot of attention to who you are, then you can make those kind of connections possibly to get more product or to partner with different people in the industry that can help grow your business. Any other thoughts, John, on this issue? No, I think I think I agree with all everything you guys, you guys are saying and, but in our area, I think of like how young we guys are talking about how, you know, you got to really what is it that you got to do to differentiate yourself from these big franchises coming in? And I'll give credit. And I don't know if this is their exact story. But Will has a favorite local card shop that he frequents when he used to, we actually used to live really close to each other. But he's since moved north, north of the city. But he still goes to this shop, which is close to me. It's called Total Sports. And I'll be honest, when they first they opened, I think during the pandemic. So when they opened, and it's a really small little neighborhood shop, I thought to myself, man, I don't know if that, like, it's gonna last, like, obviously, they're taking advantage of the pandemic. But I was like, Oh, man, these these local card shops, it's gonna be kind of tough business. And he's, this guy has grown his business really, really well. And I think I'm going to guess the biggest component is he's created a breaking room. And he's pretty much become one of the biggest hockey centric breakers. Like if you need to go online, and break hockey and break the biggest hockey products. Yeah, it's his it's I think it's called GS sports. I could be wrong. But um, you guys may have heard of it. If you if you ever see like a big hockey break, hit like a Conor Bradard, NHL shield logo, it's usually on his format, because he's the one that's breaking all of that huge product, right, right, right. And, you know, going back to him, like allocation, I think, because he's moving so much product, now, he probably gets huge favoritism from upper deck, right. So even a small little card shop like that, which, from the old school mindsets, you would think, dude, this is not going to make it. But he went completely in a different direction, digital. And I'm guessing he's doing pretty good for himself because most of the the hosts that I see now is like, hey, I just bought this collection recently. Let's check it out. It's $50,000 next post. Hey, I bought this another. I bought another collection from this hardcore collector. It's all Ovi's 100 grand. Like he's moving some big money now. He's not, you know, his older post was like, I bought this thousand dollar card. Like he's moving some big money. So I'm assuming he's doing really well. So that's a good, a good, I guess, you know, a great example of a local card shop that is the size of a mom and pop shop that really. Moved with the times and and, you know, did well in a small niche, right, is succeeding in the way that he needs to succeed, right? No, that's a great story. No. And I guess he's using that strategy, buying six figure cards to grow. It's right, right. Channel is doing well now because of that. But I mean, more more to the point, I think you're right. Like sometimes you just got to find your niche. And if you do your niche really well, guess what? You get a certain amount of credibility and that builds trust and brand. And I think that's a that's a viable strategy as well. Yeah, I don't want to open up a can of worms, so maybe we'll discuss this for later. But you kind of mentioned it briefly, John. Fanatics can start opening their own stores. And then that changes the game a little bit, too, right? They got their own distribution channels. Obviously, they can allocate whatever to themselves. But and fanatics already has a store in London, England. So maybe their strategy is more international at the current moment. But who knows? They could easily start opening their own stores in North America. For sure. I think that that's that's kind of like a dangerous, slippery slope. And I'm sure they've, you know, had some talks about that and that it depends on distribution partners. If they're not doing their job, then fanatics has to do that in-house. But if you have partners that are good at what they do, I don't think you need it. And I think it's strategic flagship stores in different countries that, you know, make the whole ecosystem work. So I hope fanatics doesn't do that. I think there's there's things that they should just kind of stay in and let other people do things well as like the partnerships, what you're seeing and see how that unfolds, because I think they probably what can can get the same results without the crazy overhead of investing in their own stores. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, to their credit, in past interviews, they mentioned that they do want local car shops to be part of the ecosystem. Right. So I don't think they're planning to take over. Yeah. Yeah. Any time soon at all. And you know what? You guys might be right. But I think they could still take advantage in terms of their branding. Like you might see a card vault by Tom Brady powered by fanatics in the future, right? Like where they're sponsoring the biggest stores in North America. So that could be their their avenue. Yep. We'll see what the future holds. But lots of things changing week to week. OK, let's move on to our next segment. It's another round of quiz show. OK, so I've been doing a lot of over unders because it's been easy to set up, but I want to do a quiz show around with you guys because Johnny's back. So that's always fun to have two contestants instead of just one. So I got four questions for you guys for this round. The first one is more fun. First question. Which of these is an actual inscription on a Phil Hughes baseball card? Phil Hughes, the former New York Yankees pitcher who I don't want to rub it in to our New York fans, but we just eliminated and we're on to the ALCS. Go, Jays, go. Let's go. But Phil Hughes, he has which of these is an actual inscription on this one of his cards? OK. A. I'm going to give you multiple choice. A. Derek Jeter's teammate. B. Miggy is my daddy. C. 191 career home runs allowed. D. All of the above. Jeez, it sounds like an all of the above. It does sound like an all of the above, but I don't think Phil Hughes would just trash himself and just like they completely do all of that. Like, I feel like a would be the only thing that would be like kind of like, hey, I'm proud of that. Right. You know what I mean? The other ones are like, yeah. Remember seeing his content? And I remember Miggy is my daddy is a thing with Phil Hughes. Oh, really? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Is it? Self-deprecating humor. It is. I he talked about that for sure. So whether it's on the card or not. Maybe he got owned, but the Derek Jeter one is standard. I feel like it's it should be there. In terms of the self-deprecating humor, Miggy my daddy could also be there, too. Yeah. And so now I'm thinking it might have to be all of the above because he also yeah, 191 home. I could see him doing that, too. He's he's he he can be a bit of a goofball. So hang on, let me look in the big leagues, given up, given up like 20 home runs a season. I don't know the exact number is a lot. So if he gave up one hundred and ninety one bombs, that's like. I mean, eighty eight full seasons of giving up bombs, so one hundred ninety one bombs makes sense, too. He's been in the league for a while, though, right? Yeah, he yeah, he's a he was a he was a starter. So he he has he has some innings for sure. Yeah. Yeah. And hang on that that that inscription is very specific. Like, I don't think Clark can even make that up. Yeah, that's that's a good observation. Do you doubt my genius when it comes to quiz show questions? How many times have I told you guys after five seasons, after five seasons of the podcast, how many times have I fooled you guys? I'm going to go all of the above. But if you fool me, Clark, you are a genius. I'm going all of the above. You're a certified genius if you fool the both of us. Wow. The answer, correct answer is. Do you see that on your screen? Yeah, it's all the ball of the above. Oh, damn. That's the most positive one, Phil. Like, let's let's let's be optimistic. Let's get some optimistic inscriptions. You had a great career, Phil. What a what a joke. Yeah, that's funny, though. Yeah. All right. Clark is still very smart. You're not a genius, but you're still very smart. I should have stuck one more in there to get you guys. But I was in a rush. OK, question number two. I don't know if you guys heard. Top's Chrome. They're partnering with every IP these days. V-Friends and Disney. SpongeBob. I'm going to talk about SpongeBob. The 2025 Top's Chrome SpongeBob. There was a triple auto super fracture pulled recently featuring SpongeBob, Patrick and Squid. Squidward. I never watched SpongeBob, but Squidward. Yeah. OK, Squidward. How much does it sell for? Five thousand. Twenty thousand. Fifty thousand. Damn, I saw I saw this one, so I you know, that's all right here. So, yeah, what do you think? So I. I think it can't it has to be over 5K because that's hobby logic. 50K seems ridiculous, which also seems hobby logic. Yeah, the only realistic delusional answer is. Twenty thousand. You're sticking with it. I'm sticking with it. All right. What if we what if we come to that immediately 5,000 SpongeBob card? I'm not. Yeah, I didn't do any research on SpongeBob. We eliminated that right away. Grand for a SpongeBob triple auto. That's it's like immediately. Oh, that that's a steal. Yeah, that's where we are now as a hobby. Yeah. Young's right. It was I remember it was like 20,000 something or 21,000. Twenty one thousand five hundred. Yeah, that's crazy. That's that's insane. Oh, you know what? Speaking of Topps Chrome collaborations, I kind of mentioned it. I'm looking at a. You tell me if this is crazy, OK? Because the auction ends, I think, today or maybe tomorrow. Disney and Topps Chrome, they have a Topps Chrome product out this year. And I think for the first time, they have Disney characters in licensed baseball MLB uniforms. Oh, I forgot clubs. Yeah. So you got like sweet. And I think I think the first set of this Topps Chrome is like their home uniform, so I think the next one will be away uniforms. But their home uniforms. There's one of Goofy. I think Goofy represents the AL East division. So there's a Goofy Toronto Blue Jays, of course. And there's different refractors. The red one is starting bits. Fourteen ninety nine. Wow. I'm thinking about it. I'm thinking I'm already hooked. All it took is the MLB logo. That's crazy. But that's what and that's the IP. Yeah. Like you never know. It could go crazy. But would you would you purchase that same card if it didn't have the Toronto Blue Jays or like let's say not? Yeah. So that's what I'm saying. Now Clark becomes a new customer. Right. And I'm sure there's other other people that are the same or not everybody. But some people might. But that's the power of collab. Right. The red refractor of Mickey, who I guess is the NL West, the L.A. Dodgers red refractor sold for seven thousand five hundred. Crazy. Oh, my Lord. Crazy. Non auto. Non Mickey auto. I don't I don't I don't endorse it, Clark. OK, man, it looks we'll see. So you're so you're thinking it's not just hype. This has potential to go beyond the initial hype, because I'm always scared of like buying into the initial hype. Yeah. Yeah. I got to do your research. Right. But it's it's all over the place. The pricing, because it depends on the team, depends on the character. Like Mickey, obviously, is going to have a premium over a fee that. Right. And and the color of the refractor itself. But I'm thinking, you know, if it's if people look back at this five, ten years like, oh, there's a Disney character. If MLB is doing really well these days, viewership is increasing, you know, baseball, they're like, wait a minute, there's a card that's a Disney character and it's, you know, with the official MLB logo. And this is the first year, 2025. I don't know. Maybe I'm talking myself into it, but I'll say at that at that money. I would be a little bit more on board if you were talking to Super Fractal right now. So you're talking to red out of five, right? Yeah, that's second best, right? I think Super Fractal, you're looking at hobby logic prices even more than, you know, even crazier, even crazier, for sure. No, I get I get that part because to me, it's like to spend that kind of money on like a goofy budget. It doesn't sound it sounds good. It sounds good. But if you're talking to Super Fractal, I swear, guys, if one day that resells for 10, 15, 20,000, I'm going to clip this podcast and I'll be saying I had an opportunity to get a 1500. Oh, man. And some some you got to remember, some cards do age well, like it's all about how how they age, like in five years, 10 years. How would this age do you project any potential marketplace in the future? And I think there's a balance of that, because I'm thinking the same way where I'm like the value obviously is inflated because of the hype in the current supply demand. But as time passes and we usually see that see that low period after that two, three, four year mark where everything just crashes because no one's everybody's after the latest and greatest. But as time goes by, how do they age? Right. And that's kind of like the only way I could justify spending any kind of money on non sports type cards for me, at least. See, with that logic, which is reasonable logic, not hobby logic, but reasonable logic, it's not welcome. You would have missed out on all the Pokemon dollars that, you know, our buddy Roy's getting right now. So I'm just saying more power to you guys. I never did it to chase the money. OK. Oh, boy. All right. Let's finish off this show really quickly with two grading questions. I don't think we did the September numbers yet. So we'll finish it off with a couple of grading quiz show questions. The first one is which grading company saw the biggest drop in the number of grading submissions month over month and year over year? Which of the four? Beckett. Did we did we do this already? Which. I don't think we did the September ones since we all last September. Yes. Because we are in October. Right. Yeah. Who would have? Oh, it's got to be Beckett or SGC. OK, since Young said Beckett, I'll go SGC. All right, Johnny, you got it. SGC really month over month, minus 49 percent and year over year, 59 percent. And I think we talked about this, John, when you were on last time for August numbers, right? Where the SGC announcement with Pete Steinberg, I believe, is his name. He said he was going to resign. And PSA seems to be kind of not investing as much into SGC. But there was a bump in August because everyone's submitting last minute. And we expected September numbers to just drop off afterwards because they just once they get through that last final, you know, submission. And that's what we're seeing. This huge drop off of. SGC I think a lot of people are kind of upset about it a little bit SGC could have been a really good brand but yeah PSA doesn't seem to be interested in keeping it up. Okay last one PSA since it's obviously the number one grading company rank the top four card categories graded in September 2025 so how number one is they graded this the most number two three and four including TCG which is up there hmm I'm gonna say so are we ranking them first yeah one to four who'd who'd our one is its own category right you're not specifically Pokemon yes it's one TCG no it's it's one category yeah all groups yeah all groups yeah I'm going TCG one for sure yeah probably Pokemon yeah football season number two okay I would say really about three or four okay so I still think a lot of people are submitting baseball because there's a lot of a lot of market movement on baseball cards still right now right I'm gonna say there are a lot of releases like tops chrome and probably Otani everything Otani is being submitted so okay so to recap young you're saying TCG one baseball two yeah and then what's three football or just football and basketball left those are your top four I'll give you I would say basketball and then football okay and John TCG one because I remember we talked about this the last time I was on and it's definitely TCG yeah I think I'm pretty sure I guess right that football was too and and if we're talking September beginning of the season how could it not be football so I'm sticking with football too I remember I had trouble here like what is three what is four what is five and I think I guessed incorrectly on baseball I thought baseball was a lot worse and it was a lot better so I'm going baseball three okay and then I'm gonna have to assume basketball for I feel like you're both wrong but yeah TCG is number one you guys got that right by a long shot 800 for 800,000 plus number of cards graded for September number two is young's right baseball surged plus 25% Wow to take over football which is number three you know and baseballs of yeah baseball is 240,000 cards I think and then football is right behind 223,000 so they're pretty close and basketball was you know tops I guess the top space basketball set just came out or is coming out right so that might change for October November makes sense that there you go TCG baseball football basketball well done all right let's finish our show with our regular weekly segment we call pick one young do you want to start things off first sir I'm gonna go back to Aaron's judge since they're out they're out but why are you rubbing it in holy smokes hey deserve it you know what though before you go yeah say what your pick one is I was mentioning how I was having lunch with Will and Roy the other day and actually it's gonna be on our Friday episode but I think Aaron judge and Juan Soto both huge buys in the offseason like I'm saying I don't disagree yeah yeah and now I think Aaron judge more than ever just because offseason pricing yeah not saying that you're gonna see a huge decrease in special really special Aaron judges cards because I think people are holders at this point but like I said there's always I think great opportunity even if you're priced out of the main main stuff so I want to take two cards that I thought were very interesting in terms of the price point because they were sold a week apart so the last this last week so from October 2nd to October 10th and obviously New York is out I'll just mention that one more time the Yankees are out of the playoffs so so this is a good thing it's like okay Aaron if because if Aaron judge yeah you know won the World Series it's like you have a crazy you never know if that price will go down so it's a good thing not saying it from a fan standpoint but anyways there's there's cards that I think still have great value so the first one is a 2017 tops finest okay but these are the tops finest first so it's kind of like an insert auto it's their tops finest first still has a rookie emblem it's an auto blue wave number 225 okay Aaron judge auto interesting yeah okay BGS 9 auto 10 sold for 2,000 bucks okay number 225 I'm pairing that with a tops chrome so 2017 tops chrome green refractor non-auto 299 so more of his flagship rookie I know you guys don't like green but PSA 10 also sold for 2,000 just over 2,000 bucks 2150 bucks so relatively two different cards two different mindsets in what's the better $2,000 investment at the same time frame of this past week what do you think the better investment is between these two cards a flagship tops chrome number 299 PSA 10 or a kind of like an insert auto of a second-tier brand of tops finest number 225 a BGS 9 auto 10 Wow how much how much was the tops chrome as you said again 2150 okay so they're about the same they're about the same yeah that's why it's like one person said this is a better investment the other said no the tops finest is a better $2,000 investment I'll go first I I think man I feel like the last time you gave me the choice for like the green and you know it being number 299 I that was my tiebreaker I think it's gonna be my tiebreaker again I'm going with the green tops chrome number 99 that's his number it's flagship you know the image and and the other one you know when you say it's more like an insert that's another point off you know blue wave did you say blue wave yeah I would automatically assume is number 250 unless I look really closely to so and a BGS 9 you know I would I would hope that the value before before you fully commit let me just quickly show you this I don't know if you have it the image but it's a nice-looking gonna see yeah let me let me put it in in chat chat really quick okay yeah oh but the green one is an auto to or not no non-auto oh man but the blue wave one is an auto an auto yeah that's that's the quintessential question for sure I expect that changes things for me oh there you go I thought they're both auto no no no no no this is flat but remember Aaron judge is numbered 299 so yeah that's pretty good 25 now 25 that's kind of cool too I change I change my mind the auto really for based for baseball the auto has a premium for whatever reason like there's value remember we're talking about this with basketball cards it's not as you know there's not as much of a premium for basketball autograph cards for whatever reason you know I mean they the prism non-auto higher like lower numbers parallels do really well but for baseball the auto has a premium I'm going with the blue wave number I changed his mind he did yeah I think this has become such a big question younger collectors not as much because younger collectors I think at this point they don't really care about the word flagship but going back five years and and speaking to collectors like around our our age and demographic flagship was a big deal right so now the question has and I'm thinking the same question because I owned the Juan Soto refractor out of 250 flagship and every I keep asking myself I think I should be getting out of this card and rather going into a lower grade Juan Soto like a heritage auto rookie or something for the same money I think that might be a better buy and I'm sure a lot of people are now thinking that right I think this is a great question because you're not thinking do I go flagship perfect perfect green refractor PSA 10 or same value of something else what even if it is a bit more obscure but it's an auto right this one in particular perhaps if the card was even more obscure like a tops high-tech or something you know this is finest yeah maybe obscure compared to flagship but I think what wins me over here if it was a 50-50 call number one I'm in agreeance with you guys I think the tide is shifting on flagship I think it's having less and less meaning so if I'm gonna advise somebody how are they gonna spend their two grand I think by default you have to go auto especially if it's on card it's a no-brainer and on top of that what makes it even easier here is the actual card itself the visual looks great with like the Yankee big like he's Yankee's logo in the background it almost looks like an Independence Day type it's got that kind of vibe so yeah it's it's a logo refractor yeah it's a good-looking card man I think the auto is nice it is nice the 50-50 coin flip for sure yeah I'm leaning same way even though that I would love to have that PSA 10 green refractor I think that's still gonna hold the premium just because it's numbered to 99 and it's flagship and it's a PSA 10 but I think autos are so underrated especially you know pre-2019 autos that are a lot more limited and Aaron judge too I think Aaron judge show a Otani though those type of players are the autos are gonna be amazing in the future in terms of value when they're not signing anymore a lot of people are gonna be after it especially Aaron judge having his type of career in New York I think there's so much upside with that auto and it's a great-looking card so if I'm spending 2,000 bucks I'm going with the auto as well sweep like it nice John you got one for us yeah you know what I was gonna go I was gonna go with hockey but after man after young that you know that's tough that's tough to follow up so I got I think I gotta change mine up here real quick on the fly on the fly okay you know what I'm gonna and I don't know how I'm gonna kind of call out will here a little bit so I'm better for you yeah I'm gonna forward you guys a photo so so we'll just pick this up and I love it so that's what I'm gonna afford you guys mm-hmm so you see so we'll picked up as a Blue Jays fan he's got the tops 2020 definitive collection Guerrero Bichette on card patch patch autumn and I haven't verified with him whether the patch is game news knowing tops probably says game is not give me well that's a really nice yeah oh that's money that's perfect so it's an auto 9 but if you look at the auto I think this has a great chance of becoming a pit like just getting rid of the auto and just going champion 10 I think it that's immediately immediately gonna double the value so I'm gonna put this card at like a thousand to fifteen hundred Canadian so now I gotta call out I gotta call out Clarkie here man would you rather go this card yes or would you rather go your scooby-doo blue jay do we do please goofy or go scooby-doo yeah scooby-doo goofy no disrespect to goofy let's say at the 50 assuming you can get that car for 1,500 I you know that thing might end up you said it was auction right yeah yeah yeah I think I know what young's gonna go for you gonna go first you're gonna go for the dual auto bro I'm I'm pulling up these scooby-doo or sorry these these goofy yo this I don't know man that is I don't know Clark I don't know where's the okay hang on where's the phone I'm just seeing this car I'm just seeing these cards I don't know I'm there you only see the super frack I mean I have pulled out the regular ones let me see what it looks like visually gosh yeah I can't do it man I'm going I'll make it easy I'm going with the dual auto that's a sick card I think if it's a sick card we'll we'll we'll pick that out images yeah yeah he gets rid of the auto 9 I think it's good it's a beautiful collector piece yeah such a great and the autos look great and I agree with you I would just get that re slab take out the auto keep the gem in 10 that card is a great great card okay okay it has a little red red I'm showing them the red refractor number two five blue jays goofy yeah I'm going with the I'm out I'm a goofy illustration is blue jays too yeah he has blue jays a hat you know he's blue jay gear okay full blue jays gear dude goofy's on the rubber you're not supposed to be on the rubber just your foot goes in front of the rubber look up look how big his feet are though that's like impossible for him to got a final answer I'm going to do a lot of okay I'm 1500 that's the surprise if I could get that for 1500 yeah yeah yeah 1500 I want Goofy man. Oh red refractor Goofy 50 under all the way all the way because on my watch list There is another dual auto Bichette laddie. All right, let me show it to you guys since we're doing show-and-tell today So I've been looking at this BTS 8.5 dual auto of laddie and bow the patches are much nicer Sorry to say to will it's like multicolored blue and white For 713 us half the price of what we're talking about. I like that. I'm just saying I'm just saying there are other options For the dual auto. Okay, so the red refracted goofy MLB It's I know it's a risky play, but it is only numbered to five. So the rarity will help, you know, if it does pop off So I'm going with the goofy. I'm sticking with it What do you get what's the tiebreaker John I Can't do the goofy man Like I think Clark I think I understand where your mindset is at in terms of like the play on the potential value So I will admit right the the ceiling for the goofy assuming it's 1500. I mean that car could be worth $5,000 I don't know. Yeah, that's true. Well, it's the options over I will admit that the ceiling is way higher right because you just don't like we don't know So that's what you're gambling on if you can get it for a good price You don't know whether you can trade it for five grand or eight grand and obviously if you've got that kind of offer You're taking it immediately. There's no question Like this dual auto doesn't have that kind of potential. So it's like strictly a collector piece. Yeah, but if I kind of strip it down Trying to think who's gonna go after the goofy Like as a baseball as a Toronto Blue Jays enthusiast like the answer is easy and I'm gonna pick the dual to do a lot. No question It's a dual auto. There's like as my personal collection going out of my way to spend Over pay and spend 1500 or over pay and spend two grand like that is that's the card. It's not the goofy But who would be willing to pay that big money for the goofy? Is it the Disney collectors? But as a Disney collector if I'm gonna go for a goofy I'm probably gonna go for the actual goofy card. Not the goofy Blue Jays card Right as a Disney collector if I was getting getting a baseball Unless I'm Canadian. The Blue Jays is not catering to my Yes, you know interest. It's got to be like Yankees or Dodgers, right? Excellent point. Yeah, so for me You're not really attracting the Disney collectors. It's strictly Blue Jays collectors here So for as a Blue Jays collector, I think the answer is easy and my answer is the flatty Boba shed to a lot of patch game used on card Yeah, no Excellent points and you know what? This is why I love the podcast. I'm not gonna go for the goofy You're absolutely right the resale value won't be there because I gotta look for a goofy fan and in Toronto Blue Jays fan that values tops chrome as a as a product and Knows what a red refractor really is value that so You know what else is on my watch this before I does the last time I'm gonna talk about Disney tops chrome Okay for all our listeners There is a Mickey Mouse LA Angels, you know, Anaheim Angels. There's a connection with Disneyland I think that might be a better play in Yeah, a black refractor number 210 so too much hobby logic It's inception levels of hobby logic right now I'm Lost I'm lost in it right now. All right. Oh Man I also want to finish the episode there. Okay one One quick one and this is a Blue Jays point. Okay, since we're all being homers right now The Vladdy Guerrero, okay before I say what the the two cards are Just no one respects the Blue Jays as a as a legit World Series contender until maybe now now that we're in the ALCS Because if you look at all the clips MLB on Fox guys the or David Ortiz Jeter a rod, of course and the other host they've made their World Series prediction How many have the Blue Jays been in zero? They all set the Yankees and now they're their predictions are bust Okay, so Yankees over Dodgers, you know Yankees are Phillies that's predictions horrible So I'm just saying that generally speaking and going back to your point even about the dual auto You know only Toronto fans are gonna want these cards if you're looking to flip, you know I mean, there's not gonna be a lot of hardcore Vladdy Guerrero jr. You know like Vladdy is a superstar But I would say the majority of people that want Vladdy high-end cards are still Torontonians Yeah to tell you the truth, whereas judge has fans all over the world You know, I mean even us like I want to at Aaron judge card, but Vladdy's different So I think that shows in the value So on one side you got Vladdy his first Bowman 2016 gold refractor PSA 10 that sold recently Maybe in August or September for just over 9,000 Wow gold Or a Juan Soto who's more universally Loved and enjoyed his gold refractor BGS 9.5 not even a PSA 10, but a BGS gem in 10 auto sold I think This month or last for just over 20,000, which is a better value for you in terms of yeah investment and everything Sorry, the tops the tops chrome non auto gold refractor like a flagship card. No Bowman. No, they're both they're both Bowman chrome Yeah Sorry, yeah, so they're both both first Bowman chrome autos one's one Soto's the BGS 9.5 and Vladdy is PSA 10 essentially at half the price of what you can get for one Soto I will say this Clark there was a point in time in history before the whole card hype that Vladdy outsold Soto in Every ask right? Yeah, sure. So for me, I still think there's a huge Vladdy fan base And I think he is one of the best hitters in baseball If not the best right-handed hitter potentially other than Aaron judge And gold PSA 10 is ridiculous so I to me at nine thousand dollars Do I would I rather have the Juan Soto card I think I'd rather have the Juan Soto card because I believe in Juan Soto that much and he's gonna be even better than I think Vladdy when it's all said and done, but but for for that price point, I Think there's so much upside in that Vladdy card One it's a PSA 10 one It's a goal true gold and it's at 9,000 compared to half the price of a BGS 9 5 To me the better value is Vladdy for sure I'm gonna pick Vladdy and that that that's putting my Toronto bias the side too. Okay. Yes Yeah, when these when prospects first come out they cater to every everybody you're a fan of the prospect it doesn't matter what team they're on right like Luis Robert like okay, like we didn't care about Chicago White Sox You're just following the prospect in hopes that he becomes the next superstar right it's whether he Retains that status as a superstar as he keeps going forward, right? Vladdy tailed off a bit. So obviously now Yes, I think young's right because there were so many bloody fans to begin with as a prospect Especially after this current run, you know the Grand Slam all that stuff. They could be back They were like, oh I knew it like I Shouldn't gave up on Vladdy. Like yeah, this guy's a stud But clearly majority will be of the home team at this point after the lull and the hype kind of Dissipates and fall it falls away. You're you're looking at hometown is gonna be the majority collectors with that being said man, I For me for me, I think long term I Mean just just apples to apples. I think Juan Soto is the answer So if you're a big-time collector and you got the money and you gotta it's it's not even about the money It's just pick one or the other. I think the answer easy answer to me is Juan Soto The problem with the one-on-one here. Is that the money it's 10k or 20k like where? Where there's a value sit between these two players. I Kind of I think I kind of agree with young. I think the nine grand or nine and a half grand on the Vladdy card is Probably the better buy of the two What is seemingly by Lowe's right but long term? You know Brent from deep value investor. I think he's no question He's gonna be like the yeah, it's Juan Soto's the answer like put money aside like that's the card you go for So I I'm gonna say what I'm gonna say Vladdy right now 59 to 41 just because whoa Okay, just because the $9,000 or whatever the price was just under 10 I think that's the slightly the better value buy but yeah, yeah Big big big picture. I think it's an easy answer on the other side I feel like Johnny pull the Johnny like I thought you're gonna say Juan Soto for sure after that You know what, I don't have to say much I'm going Juan Soto long term I think the value is there can't disagree in Real life. I'm buying that Vladdy Picking that up for myself for especially at that price I agree with you the value is tremendous, but if I'm holding I think what like and I kind of teased at the beginning of Earlier in this episode in the Aussie. I'm looking for Juan Soto cards Like he had a 4030 season crazy very quietly almost, you know I mean like and it's just overshadowed by how poorly the Mets finished that season Yeah they didn't make it to playoffs and I think if that Narrative is still out there for the offseason and once those cards drop further in value. It's been dipping a little bit already I'm picking up Juan Soto all day. I like it. Yeah. All right Oh longer episode than usual usually I have these long episodes with one Roy because we go on millions of tangents, but I Feel like we we kind of did with the Disney top scroll Maybe that's why I added 50 more minutes to this show, but I appreciate you guys I appreciate all our listeners and yeah, we'll have a brand new episode for you next week. Talk to you then. Bye Hey, thanks for listening to cards to the moon We'd really appreciate you subscribing to our podcast wherever you listen to your podcast And you can also connect with each of us on instagram at five card guys Or you can follow young at integrity sports cards or John at trade you at recess You can also check us out at five card guys calm Thanks again, and hope to connect soon You