Introducing A New Joint Podcast Episode With Cards To The Moon and Paul Hickey of The Sport Card Strategy Show; Plus Is GameStop the Future of the Hobby Shop?

You're listening to Cards to the Moon, a podcast about trading cards from both a collector and investor perspective. We hope you'll stick around for the ride as we take a deep dive into the state of the hobby, share some hot takes, hopefully some useful advice and fun stories along the way. Hey guys, welcome back to Cards to the Moon. This is episode 245 and it is a Friday episode. My name is Clark from 5cardguys.com and 5cardguys on Instagram. Co-hosting with me is John who is back from his trip and he is treyuadresus on Instagram if you want to find him there. Hyung's away this week, he got called in for a meeting so he might miss the next couple of episodes but that's fine because today we're going to play, I guess it's a joint podcast episode within a podcast episode, but it's something I did with Paul Hickey from the Sports Card Strategy Show. Hyung and I, we were in Fanatics Fest New York City and we both met him there in person and since then I've been chatting with him about doing something together with our respective pods. For this first joint recording, it was primarily an intro to who I am to everyone listening to Paul's podcast and conversely who Paul is to our Cards to the Moon audience. In a nutshell though, Paul's way more into investing in sports cards and he goes as far as saying he's not really a collector, which is fine, which is all good, but I think he brings an interesting perspective on how he looks at the hobby and he often goes into the weeds on what he looks for just to give him the best chance to make a profit. So that's kind of his angle. You could contrast that to our podcast where we take a wider perspective on everything that's going on in the hobby and what it could mean for both collectors and investors. So I think marrying those two perspectives can yield some interesting discussion. So anyway, we're exploring this idea of making this a semi-regular thing so stay tuned for the first joint episode we recorded earlier and we'll play that for you in just a bit. But before we do that, let's briefly, John, you and I, weigh in on the new collaboration between GameStop, yes they're back in the hobby news, and PSA who, I don't know if you heard the last episode, John, but Heung and I went a little bit deep with the whole controversy with PSA changing the grade from a 9 to a 10 for someone's Shouhei Otani card. But we're talking about PSA again this week and I want to read something from the news release that GameStop sent out. It says, quote, as part of this collaboration, GameStop will become an authorized PSA dealer and PSA will provide authentication and grading services for trading cards through select GameStop stores across the United States, end quote. So it looks like we're shut out here in Canada right now at least, but since most of our listeners are in the US, some of the main details are that it's $20 US to grade a sports card through GameStop, you have to add a $5 flat shipping fee per order, and the declared value of the card must be $500 max per card. And estimated turnaround time is 45 days. All right, initial thoughts, John, or any questions you have on this new collab? So I haven't been able to catch up to our own pods. I'm still getting over jet lag and catching up with my life. So I haven't even looked at anything social media related to sports cards while I've been away. I've taken a complete break. So I feel a bit left out. So I'm kind of playing catch up. But I want to understand firstly, how has the GameStop experiment been going? I think I did see one person kind of post a video of them going to GameStop. Has it relatively been a decent success? I don't know anything that's going on with GameStop. You know, I was thinking the exact same thing. You're referring to like when they announced that they would buy and sell cards, essentially. And then there was the whole thing we talked about in our podcast before, like, what are the comps? You know, what are they going by? And I feel like it's settled down, like, you know, initially, it looked like some people were getting good deals, other people weren't, it seemed like they're offering really bad comps. But I feel like there's, yeah, to tell you the truth, I haven't heard that much about it. I don't know how much volume they're doing. But the fact that I guess they're taking this extra step in getting a little bit more deeper into the hobby must mean that they're doing relatively okay, average, probably at best. Right. Okay. Yeah. I mean, you kind of figure that. But I just wanted to kind of confirm. My first take on this when I saw the news on your show notes, I mean, conceptually, I think this is great. Like this is, I don't know if your listeners recall, we talked about this kind of idea back in the day a little bit, right? When we talked about Walmart and like a distribution center where people that are a little bit intimidated by the PSA submission process, they could just bring it, right? And now PSA is linked up with eBay, right? Is it eBay though? Yeah. Right. I got that right. So you can vault it immediately and sell. So like in concept, this is perfect. This is exactly what we're talking about. So I think by design, I'm a pretty big fan of it now. Like you just mentioned off the top about GameStop, I think the concept of even new beginners in the hobby or even, you know, like veterans of the hobby, the adoption to go to GameStop, to trust them with your cards. I think that's a difficult part for me, right? Like I don't know if I'd still like trust, like I would still rather trust my local card store, the old school guys that I know, they're super prideful in the hobby sports cards. They will take care of your cards. They know if you bring in a $1,000 card or whatever it is, they treat it like a, well, even if it's a $20 card, whatever, they understand the hobby. Whereas you're going to GameStop and I don't know the scenario, but you drop it off to some 16 year old kid. He's actually there to be like working for video games. He doesn't really care about cards. I don't know, like they might get sloppy, you know, not to their faults, but they don't know what you're submitting. You could be submitting $50,000 worth of cards and they're just kind of treated ho-hum willy nilly. And then maybe something happened. I don't know. Right. So I think that trust factor, that adoption to use GameStop and trust them with your cards in this manner, it's going to take some time, but conceptually again, I think this is, um, it's definitely on the right track. Yeah. You, you, you know what? It's so funny. You read my mind when you said Walmart. Cause I, that's what I first thought of as well when we're, you know, thinking about this issue and we're like, we kind of discussed this and we, Hey Walmart, we gave you the idea first. You guys didn't act on it. I guess you're not listening to this pod carefully, but, um, but a GameStop is doing what we thought Walmart should have probably done. And just on slight tangent, I have no idea how that Walmart trading marketplace is going to. I feel like that's not going as well. I don't know anyone that's using it, but anyway, um, but yeah, it's funny. You know, if I went into a GameStop and then I had all these cards, like, let's say I had 20 cards, $500 max. So you know, that's $10,000. And then, uh, um, if I see like a 16 year old kid, I'm like, I might, I might just walk out of that store and come back later to see, you know, uh, just to wait for an employee that you have a, you know, better relationship with, or, you know, that you can trust, you know what I mean? Right. But, um, but yeah, that's kind of to your point, but yeah, like that's my, you know, it's, I agree with you. It's a great idea, but, um, I guess what's to be seen as the actual logistics of it, like how do they store it is, will it be really secure? You know? Um, the fact that it's a $500 max card, I guess that kind of, you know, you're not going to see super high end cards in there. You probably don't want to take it to a GameStop anyways, if it's like 10,000, although in the fine print, it says that, you know, if, um, it gets through to PSA and they, the card is worth way more than $500. Guess what? You're still going to get upcharged. There's no loophole in the system, right? I think, uh, the upcharge will still definitely be there. Um, but yeah, I, you know, it's, I think if you are a TCG collector, like I feel like a lot more TCG collectors would go to GameStop for, for this kind of thing, then it might be a better option for those kinds of collectors. And you know, I forgot to mention this off the top, but it's $16 to grade for TCG through GameStop versus a $20 for sports cards. And the max declared value on the TCG is $200. I'm not sure why, but that's, that's the stipulations. So, you know, it's, uh, I guess it's, it's targeting a certain segment of collectors. Right. And by the way, is, is GameStop as a franchise here to stay? Because is this, because what happens if you drop your cards off the next day GameStop's not around? This is like, it's like dropping your cards off at Walmart versus dropping your cards off at Blockbuster. You're like, ah, I don't know if Blockbuster is going to be around for any, anytime soon or longer. You know what? That's a legit question. But ever since the meme stock hype GameStop has been rolling for some reason, it's, and it's got, I don't know if it's like new ownership or new management. Right. Um, I was going to make a joke later about is it time to buy GameStop stock again, you know? But, um, or is GameStop the future hobby shop? Is this the pivot that GameStop needed? You know? Right. You know, it could be a play. It could be a play. It could be a hobby as we all think on this podcast, you know, that it's going to continue to grow. Fanatics is going to do their thing. GameStop could be one of those beneficiaries, you know, as the hobby grows, they could be part of this ecosystem. So, um, yeah, no, we'll see. And, and the other thing I'll end off with, uh, this for this part GameStop, uh, pros, I guess that's their, anyone that's subscribed to their GameStop membership, I guess that they, that they have, uh, so it says, once your cards are finished being graded, you'll get an email letting you know that they're ready to be picked up. And then you can keep your newly graded cards. You can sell them or you could trade them in to GameStop and these GameStop pros. If you're a member, get 15% extra cash or credit on all graded card trades. So a little benefit for GameStop members. Um, so it makes sense for GameStop to, to offer something like this. So, yeah, well, something to follow up with and see how that goes. All right. Um, that's it from the two of us for this episode. Now let's play the joint episode with Paul Heckey of the Sports Cards Strategy Show. Enjoy. All right, now I'd like to welcome in a special guest on the Sports Cards Strategy Show, Clark Kim of Cards to the Moon podcast and Five Card Guys on IG. One of the more popular IG accounts in the hobby and one of the best new people that I have met this past summer, Clark, how you doing, man? Welcome to the Sports Cards Strategy Show. Thanks, Paul. Appreciate it. And yeah, you know, all those kinds of words I appreciate for sure. And I can say the same to you. I know we'll get into this in just a second, but we're, we're always brainstorming in terms of what we can do together as content creators. And so I'm hoping to play this on, like you said, my podcast, Cards to the Moon. So any of our Cards to the Moon listeners, you just heard Paul Heckey host the Sports Cards Strategy Show. So you don't, you know, you're not wondering who, who I'm talking to, but, but yeah, glad to be here and glad to kick things off and see where, where this goes. Thanks Clark. And Cards to the Moon listeners, I am happy to be on Cards to the Moon as well. So thank you for having me, everybody. And okay, so this got started because at the national, I was with a couple of good friends in the hobby, Mosaic Joe and Iowa Dave. And Mosaic Joe, I asked Mosaic Joe, we were all kind of squatting in the same hotel room together because it was like impossible to, to get hotel rooms in Cleveland. And I asked him, okay, I really want to be meeting other content creators in the hobby this year. That's one of my, my goals between like the national 2024 and the national 2025. Like let's meet more good people, content creators in the hobby and see, see if there's collaboration opportunities, but at the very least friendships, right? And so your name was the first one that Mosaic Joe say, he's like, well, do you know the Cards to the Moon guys? And I was like, no, I don't. Not at all. And he's like, well, they're really good guys. I really liked their show. And I think Iowa Dave knows them. And so Iowa Dave, I've been on his show, he's been on our show. And so I asked Iowa Dave the next day at, at the national about you guys. And he made the intro on Instagram. And then I met you and Hayoung at the, at Fanatics Fest in Manhattan and was able to really connect with you guys. And Denny, Denny Cards was there with us hanging out. We had a good time. So thank you for being on the show. Thank you for having me on your show. One thing I wanted to ask you is just give this now your audience knows this but give the sports card strategy show audience just an overview of Who you are how you got started? Yeah, starting five cards got five card guides first, I think and then cars to the moon. Maybe talk us through that Yeah, no for sure So I do have an Instagram and social media account They all go under five card to guys not five guys the restaurant or the fast-food chain, but five card guys And yeah, you know what? I started like a lot of people right before the pandemic for myself Just you know being 40-something nostalgic about collecting baseball cards like I did back in the day and Nothing else to do as a side hobby. I got it got back into it And what I did with five card guys was I just started posting My own cards and you know just showing it off it was nothing big and then you know I don't have a huge collection. So, you know my post ran out really quickly So I decided to post other people's high more higher-end cards because those those are the cards I'm attracted to and and I just kind of did one a day and the accounts been growing ever since and you know now there's So many more cards as the hobby has grown right and and it's been it's been such a fun ride but that's essentially five card guys on my Instagram and and Facebook Twitter accounts and I also started with five card guys calm which is just a blog site where I where I write about different sports cards topics and Rookie cards and things things just you know about the hobby in general and and then I'm you know from that Two or three years later. You just kind of meet friends, you know in the hobby and you know There's a bunch of local guys here in Toronto where I'm where I'm located And I've known these guys for about you know years and we haven't connected until sports cards You know and and it was great reconnecting with them and you mentioned young who is a co-host on our podcast cars to the moon And we have another friend John who is also the other co-host and we started that about maybe three four years ago So we're talking at fanatic stress, New York City And we found out that we started our respective podcasts around the same time and you know We've just been doing it ever since and and it's been great for us with carts to the moon if you tune in It's just three friends really just talking about sports cards. What's the latest news? You know, what's our opinion? What's our thoughts? what's our hot takes and you know, I think people enjoy it because Sometimes we forget we're recording You know, we're just talking about cards and you know We just make each other laugh and and then we have some fun game segments like over under or what would you would you rather? have this card or that card and yeah, just have a good time with the pod and and like I said, we've been doing that for three four years now and it's been weekly and and I thought I was like really you know Consistent and productive when it comes to podcasting But then I run into Paul Hickey who's who's doing it like four or five times a week, which is so, you know It's something I I admire the work ethic and and it keeps me going too. So Anyway, that's that might be a good segue to maybe introduce yourself to the cards to the moon audience to the five card guys audience So Paul, yeah, tell us about yourself Yeah, thanks Clark. I appreciate the kind words. I Got started I would say in a similar way to you and to many of us in the hobby where I Found my old sports card collection at the end of 2020 at the time I don't know. I don't know if we've talked about this, but I lived in Spain at the time I was in Spain with my family from 2018 through the end of 2022 and At the time I was running my own web design and digital marketing company. I have a background in sports information And fantasy sports that I won't bore you guys with but grew up collecting Cards as a kid and have always been a big sports geek and sports card geek and just had happened to Store my old collection from when I was a kid At my in-laws house when we moved to Spain, so we were back visiting at the end of 2020 found my old collection was looking for a new professional challenge at the same time because The web design and digital marketing business had changed quite a bit throughout the pandemic and it was successful But it wasn't as much of a challenge as it once had been to build that business So I started looking up prices of the cards on eBay in my collection and not that I had anything really earth-shattering I had like David Robinson 1989 1989 hoops rookie where he's holding up the jersey at the press conference and things like that just cards that I really liked as a kid nostalgia like you said and Looking up prices on eBay. I just kind of became fascinated with a few different things like number one The listing price versus the actual sold price. Like why are people listing? Different cards for like $5,000 when when you filter by sold. It's like maybe a $50 card it's just just the discrepancies and so I Remember sitting there like at my in-laws house talking about it with My in-laws and my brother-in-law and my brother-in-law's loves like well look well There's some of these cards are graded by grading companies and others are raw and so when he pointed that out to me just in this initial like discover because I had been out of the hobby like Fully out for a long time And that was another fascinating element to me I'm like, wait a minute so you can you can increase the value of your card potentially By grading it. So what I did was I took probably the first six months of 2021 and I started creating some content about what I was learning about the hobby similar to what you're talking about Maybe posting some pictures of some cards. I was touching and feeling like Reddit and Facebook groups and all the things posted some things on my youtube channel and Then it just kind of dawned on me that what I was most passionate about was Helping people Learn what I had learned and I actually wrote a book. I never talked about this. I wrote a book in a day about My experience finding my old sports card collection going through it Grading some car like creating a spreadsheet of all the cards grading some of them not grading others all that that whole experience Got a PSA submission in before the shutdown at like $12 a card Like two years later, you know 18 months later like the rest of us, but anyway wrote a book about that and then from that book decided Let's create the sports card strategy show and at first so the first episode of the sports card strategy show aired I think in like September 2021 and It was all about just helping people learn From my experience and then very quickly After the first probably 10 episodes, I realized What I really want to be doing That no one else is no one else is saying this specifically but it seems to me that everyone really wants to be making money doing this because if you're and I'm in my 40s to you said you're in your 40s if you're in your 40s There's nothing wrong with having a hobby and a full-time job and a family and all that that's like what? Many of us in the hobby are doing but for me, it was like if I'm gonna be transacting and acquiring sports cards And doing it in lieu of spending time with my family. I I pretty much have to justify that in some way And so to me it was like I really if I'm not making money doing this. It's pretty expensive hobby, which means If it's not funding itself, or I'm not making money, then I'm definitely spending a lot of money that I could be Using to support my family in other ways So it kind of clicked to me that what I want to be doing is actually making money Flipping sports cards, and I want to help other people do the same so that they don't get in Spend a bunch of money realize that they don't like it anymore and then leave because it's expensive When in reality you can flip to fund your PC you can be both you can be a flipper You can be a collector you like you can do everything right and if you're if you're good at flipping You can have a bigger PC and you can use some money as side income for your family if you need to So that's really what I aspired in probably early 2022 to make the sports card strategy show all about and so Now we now we're here like what to you know Almost two full years after that almost almost three years after starting the show initially Feeling like we've built Guidelines strategies principles we've built rankings We know more about how to make money raw to grade We know about how to maybe make some money on prospecting already graded cards things like that. So to me, it's like this Culmination of all the media information I was working on in sports the fantasy aspects sports I think it's better than sports betting and I think it's it's just Something that I'm super passionate about. I'm not passionate about collecting. I'm just not I'm passionate about Making money flipping sports cards, but if I can help the collectors in the process And help people make money then that's what I'm here for Yeah, no, that's I think you should you did share a lot of that story with me when we met in person and and I think That's what naturally gravitated myself towards what you're doing because I think there's this Recognition that you can do both like I you know, there's a lot of people that just want one or the other But then I think we're in this in the camp where you know there's there's a lot of room in the hobby for different kind of collectors and investors and and Most of us are kind of both like you mentioned that you're more of a strictly a flipper or investor I would say I'm both collector and investor But what you said about how you know flipping cards or making money off of cards to fund your PC That's kind of where I am. That's where I like to be, you know, and and yeah It was something I had to talk to my wife about you know Like once I started buying more cards that cost more money You had to start justifying that spend right and and it was much easier to convince her when I said oh But I made this much money Flipping this card song just kind of you know Making another purchase that I like, you know even more and it just happens to be a little bit more expensive But you know, I think that it could increase in value too. So who knows right? But but yeah I loved how you share that story for sure yeah, and I'm glad you said what you just said too because I think I I don't actually don't consume a whole lot of hobby content I have I have Become a listener of cards to the moon and I love what you guys are doing and that's what one of the reasons why I'm Really excited to be able to create content with you My impression was that the YouTube algorithm at first fed me a lot of like Either really positive content or really negative content about the hobby and some of the negative content was Like gloom and doom like I lost all my money on sports cards And I'm you know I'm really struggling in life and that kind of thing and those types of videos were getting a lot of views a few years ago but really I think where and then that makes sense right because People want like true crime stuff So they want like either the the really really negative stuff or they're really really positive stuff But I think what you just said is a good example of like where we all sit I think we all actually sit at this point where We need to be honest with ourselves and our partners in life I mean some of us have partners some of us don't you and I are both married we have to be honest with our wives in our case about What money we're spending on sports cards like we because if we don't it can if there's no checks and balances it can get out of control and You can Start to make bad decisions but as Easy as it is to start making bad decisions. It's actually pretty simple to just be fully transparent With the people that you need to be fully transparent with about hey, look. Yeah, I Know this card might have cost $250 or even $750 or whatever but the reality is that I'm funding part of it with sales from these other cards and so I'm just I'm just kind of like Always willing to open the dialogue with people about exactly what they're doing. Yeah from a flipping standpoint I like to do that on my show and at no offseason calm, but um Since you mentioned that you like to flip to fund your PC talk to me about like What is your Pete like? What is your PC? What do you like to buy to collect? I'm fascinated to talk to collectors and especially people like you who flip to fund their PC because I Struggle with like Keeping cards like I I just don't I don't keep cards. So Someone like yourself who is a highly intelligent Flipper of sports cards and collector. Like how do you how do you decide? Who to PC and then after you decide that like, how do you do it? Like, what do you go after it? First I got a dispute you calling me highly intelligence, you know, I'm kind of you know, it's just a mediocre collector, but I appreciate that you think highly of me, but um, no, that's a good question because I think it's probably a little different for everyone but I think what's useful for me is having a clear distinct line in terms of These are my cards that I actually PC and I probably won't ever Sell, you know because they mean something to me So that's kind of where I put my PC pile and a lot of it if you're watching on YouTube You'll see I'm wearing a Jays hat you'll see I'm wearing a Jays shirt So I'm obviously piecing my hometown team, Toronto Blue Jays. It's as simple as that and I'm sure there's millions of collectors that do the exact same thing. What's my hometown team? Who's my favorite player? You know, the Jays The 1992-93 World Series back-to-back champs that you know, I was a teenager back then So I remember really well high-fiving my dad, you know when Joe Carter hit that home run So obviously I have Joe Carter autograph cards and and John Olrude and you know, like we are Like we've mentioned a few times already. We are in our 40s So we grew up in the junk wax era. None of those cards are worth anything really, you know They're you know, they're just in terms of financial value. So my PC collection is cheap to collect, you know, so I look for those cards and I look for ones that are you know in really good shape because PSA 10s don't cost that much for a John Olrude or Tony Fernandez Rookie cards or you know, or those buyback cards that have Their autographs on it. I love collecting those because you know, there are some of my favorite players on the other side on the other side of that line are cards that I really like holding but I feel like In a few years I can flip for you know, a profit whatever that might be so, you know, Obviously and you can speak more on this in terms of investing and flipping because you know Not you're not going to win a hundred percent of the time But there are there are players you have a stronger conviction for in terms of the career what they've already accomplished Who the hot stars are how long to hold them? So those are all on my You know non-pc collection and I have no Attachment to it really although I love the card, you know, like for example, I have a Luka Doncic contenders optic blue It's a color match number 299 on card autograph and I you know, I got that for about six thousand and I just checked recently. There was an alt sale for nine thousand So all of a sudden I made about 3k profit if I sell now, you know, and and you know I'm always you know waiting for the aim, you know for that basketball card in particular. I'll wait for The mass to do well, you know, they're they're Top five team in terms of making back to the you know, the championships game So, you know like it's all about timing and and if um, if someone's willing to pay Double 12 13k i'm like that's a pretty good profit That's it might be a good time to flip that and i'll flip it but i'm always looking to get a bigger card that maybe you know kind of tying in with what you said with um, You know being honest with our significant others if I told my wife i'm gonna buy a fifteen thousand dollar card She'll be like what wait wait what we have a mortgage payments We got other things that we could pay about but then if she knew that I flipped it I only invested 6k originally and i'm trying to get to a point where I can You know get a you know a higher value card that I feel like I could flip even later down the road for 20-30,000 then then It's a little bit more reasonable or more. She'll be more understanding. She might be you know still In awe of how much these cards cost but you know now that we're really in it in terms of being collectors You know, we know the value of certain cards We have a better feel for them and and you know, you're always trying to build your collection that way too so I got my pc stash and then I got my You know investment, you know kind of my portfolio if you want to talk in terms of like stock terms and and things like that Right. So that's kind of how I do it personally, you know, just kind of have two Baskets and they they usually never cross and so i'm romantic about my pc but not you know other ones it could be 20-30,000 i'm not i'm not You know one of those types that oh this can keep on going forever If I see an opportunity to flip and I can invest in a card like oh You know the 1986 flair jordan that's been pretty stable, but i'm not willing to pay 80-90,000 for it right now But if I could flip up to it and you know, that's a more stable investment longer term That's kind of what i've worked towards myself personally, you know where there's these short-term flips I like to make to build into more Stable investments for those bigger cards. So that's kind of my strategy Um, yeah, so I don't know if that answered your question, but that's kind of what i'm doing now Yeah, that was great, man. I mean, I think like on the 1992 Blue jays, I I certainly remember that team and roberto alomar. John all the rude Uh devon white joe carter all those guys what a great team so I I certainly understand the uh, The knack to build the pc there and then you said something. I don't know if you realize this, but you just coined a term cards to the moon listeners Clark just coined a term on the sports card strategy show on this little simulcast we're doing he said non-pc Collection which I actually really love because i'd never heard that before and the way you describe that I know exactly what it means when you the example you gave with the luca card because Really what that is is it's not a quick flip. It's a card that clark Really really loves like he's He's willing to hold it Because he loves the card and he believes in the card He believes in the card, but he actually really really likes the card So he he doesn't feel like Bad about holding a six thousand dollar asset to himself, right? Even if I would I would venture to guess even if that goes down to four thousand at some point in the next 12 months You love the card, right? So you're okay with it and and you feel like okay Look if I if i'm two thousand under if i'm three thousand over whatever I end up being I'm enjoying the process of holding the card. I'm enjoying The process of this part of the hobby basically and so That's very different than what we typically talk about on the sports card strategy show and at no offseason.com. We typically talk about How do we get in and out strategically? Quickly To make our profit not feel bad about leaving money on the table but mitigate risk Of the card going down right so that we actually take our profit whether it's five 15 20 25 Hopefully, I mean we're all trying to get The Raw to grade mixed with the selling marker and then you get the multiplier of like the 10 20 x and that's certainly possible But in order to get there you have to play the game consistently and when you play the game consistently You really do break even about 80 percent of the time and then the other 20 percent of the time you're winning and maybe 10 percent of that 10 percent of the pie you're winning really big Right the other 10 percent that you're winning you're maybe moderately winning and 80 percent You're you're breaking even and and so you're moving in and out a lot Which is very different than that sort of non pc collect collecting or Really like longer term investing is really what it is Like you talked about flipping up to that potentially an example flipping up to that 86 fleer jordan as well being an example of that so I think it's interesting to talk about and leave room in our sports card investment portfolios and just collections or cards that We know are not pc we know we're not going to hold them forever Yeah We know that we're going to sell them at some point but We're okay holding them for a long time. That's kind of an area that we don't really talk about a lot and actually I think You guys post ig reels often about those types of cards and you do you guys do a good job At five card guys and cards to the moon on ig Kind of taking a look at like some of these more expensive cards what they hit the market at What do they do pricing wise and that's a little bit different than then What we do at the sports card strategy show where we're we're always talking about like only buy a card With the selling marker in mind only buy a card After knowing What that end game is going to be like exactly on the calendar and I think we do that to mitigate risk and really just Eliminate all confusion and and like right right or wrong like win or loss. We say like that's Execute the play like continue to execute the play Can you make adjustments along the way if something happens player gets injured hold a little longer or player? Goes off sell now those types of things. Absolutely you adjust but for the most part It's like if you buy 10 raw cards with the intention of grading them And you get them and maybe three of them suck. You still grade all 10 for for all these different reasons, right? Um, So Talk about like as you and I continue to create content together Be you hoping to learn and be you hoping to show The cards to the moon audience that maybe they don't already get uh with your content Yeah, no, um, that's just going off your point. I think we don't talk a lot about the you know pure strategy in terms of investing like you do and That's why I think we kind of you know, the episodes that we do together I think will just really be beneficial for each other's audience because you get two different perspectives and just like you're outlining Um, you know, there's the kind of different ways to invest or look at investing in your cards whether short middle or long term and you know, um, uh You were saying something before I kind of answer your question more directly But you know my non-pc collection perfect example of that is my mike trout rookie auto that's gone down a couple thousand dollars But i'm i'm a big mike trout fan i'm you know, he's just been injured and can't stay healthy but All i'm hoping is one really good healthy season And if you know, I know what he can do and he's going to do what he can do when healthy then I I have i'm pretty confident that um, it'll go back up and you know I'll be rooting for the player himself as well. Not just holding on to card hoping that I can make a nice profit So that's kind of another example of um, uh, you know someone in my non-pc collection so to speak But that's a perfect example, okay i'm gonna interject and then you can go okay for it And then you can come back around and answer the answer the other question. So that's a perfect example and I think where where my path Detoured from that is I in 2021 and in early 2022 And this and I think a lot of this Was where the sports card market was at that time because it was in a very different spot than it is now Yeah, and I saw a lot of people Having purchased those types of cards And then on paper, they're you know, they've lost money And they they get worried and they start thinking this isn't working i'm gonna Bounce from this hobby. Um, right And I wanted to help people with Timing the market a little bit better I guess and and I think This speaks to I think you and I being on the same page with those types of cards with the luca card and the mike trout rookie auto that you talked about where it's like You do have to be willing for that those types of cards to go down And be okay with holding them. Whereas I think Most people aren't okay with that um And so because most people aren't okay with that. I went in this direction of being like, okay i'm going to Help people find these ways to get in and out faster So that they can make money And then decide like do they want to put more money into cards or do they want to put? Money into wherever they put their money is is fine with me. Yeah um, but I I just think like that's a very important thing because I think a lot of people Think that sports card investing is like other investing where like if you buy if you invest in a mutual fund or you invest in a stock You can follow certain principles in in those markets To stay in the market because it's going to go back up and like sports card investing is Its own beast. So for sure it's almost like you have to have a luca. You have to have a mike trout For that to work. You can't go by like where people lose is like they're gonna go buy a cam thomas card or like, you know, like um Even ellie de la cruz, you know is super risky right because he may end up being You know a hall of famer, but he may just be a really good First five-year player of his career and then he might fizzle out and and so people know that And so people investing money in in his big big cards like his super fractors or his low serial numbered cards, I mean they Need to know what they're getting into and it's not just a set it and forget it thing. It really is getting in and out faster, but I I really wanted to just kind of Give the audience like my take on that because I think it's important to sort of define Those types of like active goat type plays With bigger cards are very very different You can't just set it and forget it. You have to have a strategy And then even more so like with with younger guys that you're prospecting on It's it's definitely more important to to get rid of their cards I think I personally think you're gonna do just fine with with both of those cards, but um Anyway, sorry to take us off off track there. I know you were gonna No, you're gonna answer a little bit more directly in my question, but I feel like you've Answered your own question for my audience, right? So that's that's perfect because and and you know, i'll you know, what I want to say is that for cards to the moon listeners Um, and i've you know, a lot of it is dealing with more higher end cards more Higher end cards more, you know longer term holds and just kind of building up that collection But then there's all that stuff in between to get to that point, which is what I feel like your content covers Much better than ours, you know, we don't actually cover any of that really and and over the years since I've been doing the pod there have been some collectors saying hey you know we really like your show but we can't relate 90% of the time because these are so high-end although they like listening to like these big hits and you know who doesn't like seeing breaks where someone hits a monster Victor Wimbanyama card right it's it's a spectacle of it but some of them do want to you know really practically get in the hobby so that's what I feel like people will get from listening to your content in general so if you haven't listened to sports card strategy show you should definitely subscribe but even even in our interactions I'm sure in our future episodes we can talk about you know how you do things in terms of how you help collectors and and then you know people that want to think longer term or venture out into these higher-end cards and and how the news plays into all of this you know that's kind of what we do at cards to the moon we see what's what are the headlines that everyone's talking about but what you know I think we talked about this at FanFest right it's like what we try to answer on our pods like why do we care why does it matter and what are the some of the implications of this hobby news you know that can impact everything from the value of the cards themselves to you know where the hobby is going in you know 2 5 10 15 20 years and you know we like to just think about those things more deeply so that's kind of what you'll get from our pod but from from sports cards strategy show like I love how you know just listening to your past episode like we don't go deep into the weeds on like what cards to collect and how to flip and what the timeline is we don't do any of that right but I think it will be valuable for some that do you want to get into that because it's it's in a lot of ways more accessible to them and you know you can you can try it with like you know I it's funny we both talked about like these tops now panini instant type cards in our respective pods and how that's you know the landscape for those cards are changing too and and how do we navigate you're talking more about like oh there's opportunities to make a profit for us it's more like you know we love the gambling aspect of it but is there gonna be a time when the government's gonna come in and say hey tops now you gotta you know you know you can't do this anymore so what what then you know so different perspectives on the same kind of you know hobby issues and topics that are being widely discussed right now but that's what I appreciate what your content that's why I think it will be valuable to current cards to the moon listeners as well thanks man yeah and you just nailed exactly what I'm excited about too and I think our audience will be excited about it I mean let us know audience you know reach out to both of us you know you know how to get us and let us know what year what you want to hear as we collaborate on content but for me I mean we don't talk about hobby news that much I look at I look at hobby news and I told you this when we met I look at a lot of hobby news and I go I don't care about that like what what is that how does that affect me now a lot of people but but just because I personally don't care about it doesn't mean that I don't need to do a better you know it probably still means I need to do a better job of understanding what why it could be valuable to our audience and so that's what I I know that you're gonna help me with because you guys do a really good job thinking through that and covering that on your show and the more that we talk and the more that we collaborate together I'd like to have you help me bring some some topics to the table that you think are relevant and I can and I like you know give you like a friendly challenge of like oh well that's stupid and then you can be like no Paul this is why you you need to care about this and then right but I need that more just in general because I don't really pay attention to hobby news like I barely even I barely even pay attention to upcoming releases and so I think but I mean if anything if I need to be paying attention to any hobby news it's definitely upcoming releases it's definitely thinking through through things that that you guys are thinking through and and some of it's gonna be like yeah that doesn't really matter but some of it's gonna be like yeah that you know that is definitely gonna have an impact on on on the weeds we're definitely in the weeds Clark we're definitely down in there we're definitely looking we're definitely looking at like hey you know you buy this panini instant card or you know it's $9.99 per card but if you buy 25 of them that's $1.09 plus tax and shipping US and then that brings your cost per card down to this and then you put that plain white envelope on it go to one ounce because the one ounce means 69 cents instead of a dollar 25 and now you know we are like all in the weeds so yeah I think between the between our two our two shows and our and our audiences they're gonna end up getting a nice balance for sure agreed agreed yeah and then you know like like you said I think as we do more of these evolve just like our respective podcast you know the way we started is not the way we're doing things now but we'll figure it out and I think whatever brings the most valuable to our respective audiences I think that's gonna be the key at the end of the day absolutely I'm all about that I mean I I I only really care about bringing value to the audience at the end of the day and I'm looking forward to learning about what the cards to the moon audience thinks is valuable and in addition to the sports card strategy show audience of course so hey thanks for having me on your show and thanks for being on my show really appreciate yeah we'll talk soon we'll talk soon everybody Clark Kim cards to the moon five card guys check them out and let us know what you want us to collab on to bring you guys the most value thanks everybody hey thanks for listening to cards to the moon we'd really appreciate you subscribing to our podcast wherever you listen to your podcast and you can also connect with each of us on instagram at five card guys or you can follow young at integrity sports cards or John at trade you at recess you can also check us out at five card guys calm thanks again and hope to connect soon