Is Nothing Sacred? + Moving On From Grails + The Downgrade Upgrade | The Hangover Ep. 3

The hangover. Who else is grooving to the tune? The Hangover. Guys, welcome to episode three of the Hangover. We are recording on June 1st, 2026. My name is Jeremy Lee. I'm joined by Mr. Joseph Perosa, Mr. Joshua Adam Bravenson, and Mr. DC David Chasenstein. What is going on, everybody? Welcome to the show. I'm. I'm just h. We're having fun here. This is the Hangover. We do whatever, whatever we please. This is good times, guys. Joe, how are you doing today, buddy? I'm doing real good. Thanks, Jay Lee. Good to see everybody out there. And, yeah, I'm ready for some. Some hangover action. Josh Adams, welcome to your. Your inaugural appearance here on the Hangover, buddy. How are you doing, my friend? Good. Excited. Nice little break from a Monday afternoon. First of the month. Everything's exciting. First day of summer. God bless. Attaboy. Absolutely. Mr. David Chase. How about you, my friend? What's going on? How's the day so far? Day's been good. I'm still in recovery from the most epic Saturday sports cards live I've ever seen. Honestly, I loved this episode from last Saturday. How are you doing after that? Epic. I'm good, man. I'm good. Yeah. Had a good day yesterday. You know, I did the fanatics weekly show last night. I bought a card. I'm going to share that with everybody. I'm very excited about the card I bought on fanatics last night, so I'll share that momentarily. But yeah, we had a. We had an epic show on Saturday night for sports cards Live. We went four hours and actually, I'm gonna. I'm just gonna share the screen quickly. So here's. Here's the. The tab. Here's the episode. I. You know, there's the four of us when we were on. But, you know, we had. We had a great show. We had. We had Howard the ticket guy on for a while down here at the bottom. He was great. Then Leighton came on at one point. There he is in the bottom. Leighton left. We continue talking and it was. It was a great episode. It was a lot of fun. 1. One of the first of all the views, it says 2.4k in the back end is showing me. We're. We're already at like 2,550 views, which is really strong for sports cards live by Monday early afternoon. But Tony, Southern Collector 14 Tony, my friend, all of our friend, he left a great comment. He says this was a great episode from start to finish. It's amazing to me that you can fill that long of time with quality content. So what a, What a fun and. And sweet comment from. From Tony to, to leave that, you know, after four hours, you're not sure. And I did have to splice it up into six podcast episodes versus the usual five because it was, it was so long. But what a fun episode we had on Saturday. If you have, if you are. If you have not watched Sports Cards Live, it is on the sports cards live YouTube channel. You can go check it out there. That is my home channel. But the Sports Card Clubhouse. This is the Hangover, exclusive to the Sports Card Clubhouse. It's the Hangover because we're gonna kind of build off of what we started on Saturday night. And with that, I want to just. We're going to start with a bit of a. The, the. The card segment showing some cards and we'll start with mine, guys. Actually, no, let's start with Joe. I want to save mine for the end because I'm just that excited about it. Joe, any card cards you want to share? What's going on? Just got some fulfillments from fanatics real quick. Nothing big but my Bay Area roots. This is Freddie Belitnikov, Mr. Stickum, if you remember. He was actually the MVP for the. I believe it was the 77 Super Bowl. But he was one of my childhood heroes. Bnikov there. And then in the same vein, a Reggie Jackson rookie signed, got the, the auto in a 10. Really sweet, sweet graph there. And just again, East Bay kid. Those were two of my childhood heroes. Nice, man. I love, I love the Reggie Jackson. It's. I have a painting that's just above you can't see it there, but love the reggie rookie. The 69 tops. Beautiful, beautiful. David Chase. What about you, buddy? Yeah, let's show this. I sent it to you. Jeremy, are you able to pull it up? This is a 1953 Bowman Stan Musial card. I bought it without the sticker, got it stickered because it makes me feel better inside. But I love this photo. I mean, give me a break. Like, how amazing is that picture of Stan the man and 53 bowman? I know Jeremy loves his Peewee Reese. I love this card. And actually when Jeremy was telling me about how he has a favorite card in 53, my mind actually went first to this card because I always think about this one and it's actually underappreciated how amazing this photo is comparable to the Reese in my opinion. And by the way, it's not an expensive card. I think I bought that for 200 bucks. So it's affordable for all price ranges. And, man, it's gorgeous. It's. It's completely different than the Peewee Reese, which is what I love about it. What I love about this card is it's a dugout photograph. He's sitting the dugout. He's just having conversations, having some laughs with the fellas, with the boys, with his teammates. It. It's very similar to the Yogi Berra from the same set. Also dugout image. And I like how he's somewhat centered on the card. I think about the Mickey Mantle from this year. I love that card as well, but he's kind of off center. There's a lot of sky in the background. Not to knock it. It's a great card, too, but I love this one. I don't own this. I want to get it one day and pair it up with the Yogi Berra. I think they're both. They're both awesome. And just one more thing about that. Just think about the first color photo was 57 in tops. And this is 53. Right. And how amazing these pictures are. When you think of 57, as much as I love that set, I. I mean, it's dark, right? Like, when you think of the Mantle. Even if we like that picture, these pictures are incredible from 1953. Incredible. Josh, what about you, buddy? Got some cards you want to share? What's up? Yes. In honor of the Stanley cup final starting tomorrow, I have Union College alum Shane Gossas bear. I've got three of his the cup rookies. This is to 249, and these are the 99 played at Union. Won the national championship there in 2014, and hopefully we'll have his name on the Stanley cup after this week's final. So I'm very excited. Awesome. All right. And so the card that I want to share. And by the way, congrats and good luck to your boy there, Shane Gossas Bear. That card was a redemption. There's probably fewer out there than the print run does state. I bought a card last night on Fanatics during the auction. I didn't tell anybody what I bought, like, because I was doing the show and I was bidding at the same time. I didn't reveal my purchase until the auction for this card had ended. I got what I think is a great deal on it. I'm ecstatic with this purchase. I love it. Here it is. There it is. It is a 2009 Exquisite Collection. Notable name plates, Barry Sanders. This is the last year of NFL Licensed exquisite by Upper Deck. That is a game used piece of the square from Sanders because it is a notable nameplate. It's out of 15. It's in a BGS9 holder with several scuffs. So I will have that holder replaced in due course. Once Beckett does update the plastic that they use, I know they've updated the label. I'm gonna wait till they improve the actual plastic that they use because I don't like scuffs on my slabs. I'm gonna take delivery of this. It's already actually it's already been paid for and it's on its way to me. So that was my pickup from last night. I did have a few mail days come in over the last few days. I got a stack of cards but I'm just going to show a couple of them really quick here. We'll just unshare the screen now so I can show you guys some of these. So this is a. A Ken Dryden piece of game use glove from in the game. The brand is called 1972 Year in Hockey. And just a a big chunk of game use glove there the third every year of jersey cards from Upper deck. This is 98 jersey upper deck. Yara Murray with a two piece, a two color jersey. Incredible card there from the upper deck. Wayne Gretzky master collection. The quad jersey. I've never owned one of these before. It's out of 99 so I'm happy to get that. It's the US version versus the Canadian version. You can tell it's got the little star there where the Canadian version has a maple leaf and then a Patrice Bergeron second year auto patch. First year with game used. I bought this Jerry Cheevers from Ultimate a game used auto patch from 2006 ultimate. It's numbered out of 15 and a couple I bought. I bought a lot of these on Slab Sharks a couple weeks earlier about the Gila Fleur. So now I have the Gila Fleur and the Jerry Achievers paired up. You know how I love to do that. And then I bought from up 0506 upper deck ice Auto patch Saku Koivu. This is numbered out of 10 game used on card and it pairs nicely with the Jeremy Ronick that I bought a few weeks earlier as well from the same year. So I love doing that. And I'll stop right there. Those are the. Those are the most recent pickups for me. I'm excited about them. Guys, I want to jump into our first sort of topic of the, of the episode here. Episode three of the Hangover featuring Jeremy Lee, Joe Perot, David Chase, and Josh Adams. We had a comment come in the chat on Saturday night. I want to lead off with this comment, and I'm not gonna be able to put it on the screen. I'm just gonna read it to you guys. But the comment came from YouTube commenter viewer Jim Define sport something and a bunch of letters. And he wrote, is everyone okay with destroying full historical items to put patches in cards, or should history be better preserved than that? Now, this is not a new topic, but it's an interesting one. I even said during Saturday night, I said, jim, great comment. Let's take note of that. Thank you, David Chase, for, For. For writing it down, emailing it to me. So we didn't lose it. But this is not a new topic. I remember back in, like, the year 2000 when Brian Price, who was the owner of. In the game, he was. He used to work with. He owned the Parkers brand. He did some work with pro set back in the day. He acquired a pair of George Vezna goalie pads, which is like a holy grail type of memorabilia in hockey. George Vezna being the who the Vezina Trophy for best goaltender is. Is. Is named after, and it's given to the best goalie. It's named after him. This is a. This is a piece of memorabilia that caused a lot of controversy when it was. It went public, like in mainstream news sources, at least in Canada, that he was cutting these things up and putting them into cards. People were not happy about it, but he did it anyway. And now those are some of the most cherished and chased pieces of memorabilia cards. We have seen Babe Ruth uniform pieces be chopped up and put into cards. Wayne Gretzky, Tom Brady, there's no shortage of cards. Roberto Clemente, Jackie Robinson, Lou Gehrig, Ty Cobb, all these guys have memorabilia cards. And these memorabilia cards are only created because a card company acquired the memorabilia, cut it up into very small pieces, and making it more accessible for people to own small pieces of it. Fractionalizing the memorabilia, if you will, but actually fractionalizing it with a knife or scissors. So the question is, is that okay, or should history be better preserved? And we're just going to go around the horn and get everybody's take on this. I'm expecting there to be a few different ones. And who wants to go first? Show of hands, who's ready to go? Joshua Adams, please step up to the microphone. All right, so I was thinking a lot about this because In. I remember, if you remember, in 2003, Donruss bought a 1925 Ruth game home game jersey, photo match and everything. Pinstripes. There's only. At the time, there are only three known Ruth pinstripe jerseys out there. And they took it and chopped it up. And remember, there was a huge out outcry about it. And I agree. I always thought it was wrong that she belongs in the hall of Fame. It's a piece of not only baseball history, American history. And so I feel that way strongly about jerseys like that. Like, I mean, Jackie Robinson, I feel like you shouldn't be chopping up his jersey, and I think it belongs in the hall of Fame. The. The other side, though, is, you know, no one's gonna be. Most people can't afford a Ruth home, a gamer, or a Robinson gamer. So you get a piece of a jersey, which I think is itself. And the idea, objectively, is pretty cool, but I just think destroying them is. Is just. I think it's. It's a bad idea. And also, guess how much that jersey went for in 2003. How much? About $215,000. What do you think it would go for today? Over a million. 200,000 it sold for in 2003. Well over a million. Yeah, that's. That could be 5, 10 million bucks right now, you know, without being an expert in memorabilia. So. So to summarize your position, you think it's bad? You would rather see these things preserved and at the Baseball hall of Fame in Cooperstown? Yes, absolutely. All right, Joe David, who's going next? Go ahead, dude. Sure. I mean, I feel very similarly to Josh. I. You know, I don't collect very many of these, so for me, it is a little sad to see, especially the vintage pieces. I don't. It doesn't hurt me as much when I see even the, you know, the. The Jordan stuff that's even there because he switched jerseys every game. Right. But a lot of these older players, they use the same jersey for the entire season. There just aren't, as of them. Now, the pieces that are, like, in the hall of Fame, I would love for those to stay in the hall of Fame, obviously. But then I start to kind of think, like, you know what? Private collectors are buying these things anyway, and we're never going to see them because they're in their own closet and in their kind of scenario, and they're millions of dollars, and none of us will ever be able to have them. So do I care, really, if, like, one person has that one Billionaire has that in their closet compared to a hundred people having it that are in the hobby. I don't mind that as much actually. So I can see it both ways, but obviously, like, I don't want to see Babe Ruth called shot jersey to be torn up because that's something that should be in Cooperstown. Okay. So yeah, you're seeing a bit of a hierarchy between the, what the jersey represents versus one that just doesn't have any significant moment attached to it type of thing. Joe Perot, where do you fall on the, on the topic? Well, I agree that there are certain historical relics that I would really hope and, and strongly pray that they do not get chopped up or fractionalized. You know, vis a vis a Jackie Robinson or a Babe Ruth. You know, things that really belong in museums, I would, would imagine. You know, the. But the thing that emerges for me, I mean my position is that my position doesn't really matter because this is ultimately about crass commerce. This is about where does the money make sense for the card companies and, or the sellers of these particular jerseys. And I say that with some cynicism and yet also a sort of growing sense that I think, I think the, the auction houses now are realizing massive amounts for, for these types of jerseys that are coming up. And so it would probably not make sense to start to chop up some of these really important jerseys and you know, commoditize them. I could be wrong about that, but that's, that's my sense is that we've been trending in a direction and that's if they even come up for sale. Some of those really high end relics are, are locked away or are indeed already in museums. So that's, that's my take. I, I enjoy them. I kind of like what David said. You know, there's, there's probably like a threshold at which point I do like my MEM cards and I do like, you know, old stitching and, and the appearance of a, a satchel or a Jackie jersey. That's, I have a little bit of a sense of connection with. Good stuff. Well, yeah, I love, I love all three responses so far and now I'm going to share mine and I'm guessing I'm gonna be the most unpopular. But that's why I wanna, that's actually why I want to share this, this angle and. Well, let me get into it. So first of all, Josh mentioned that these things should be in the hall of Fame. Many of them should be in the hall of Fame. Many of them already are in the hall of Fame. Joe mentioned crass economic sort of thing or the, the, the, the crass. I forget exactly the word you use, but the, the fact, the fact that, you know, money drives the, the, the business money is, really is, is put ahead of the importance of these things. The hall of Fame can't afford to, to purchase hall of Fames can't afford to purchase many of these items and people aren't donating them anymore because they're worth too much money. And then I think David said a lot of these just end up in private collections anyway with millionaires and billionaires. So would, so we have to think to ourselves, are these going to end up at the hall, in the hall of Fame anyway? I think the answer for many of these pieces, no. They have grown bigger than the hall of Fame, whether you think they should be there or not. Like Joe said, it doesn't matter what you think. These people don't care what you think. You don't have a vote. You don't have a vote. So being pragmatic and realistic about it, they're probably a lot of these pieces aren't going to end up there anyway. So now there's two options. They end up in a private collection and they have now been converted to financial instruments and investments. That's what they are. They are collectibles, but they're in private collections that you can only see if you're at that person's house in person or if they loan them to a museum at some point in time, which is hard to think many people would do that because they. It's risky. It's risky to do that. So they're either going to become financial assets of the ultra wealthy or they are purchased by a card company who can now fractionalize them, cut them up, destroy them, and let thousands of people or hundreds of people own a small piece of history that way. So I'm all for it. I am all for card companies buying these pieces, slicing and dicing them and putting them into cards so that I can go out and buy a piece and have a piece of Lou Gehrig, Ty Cobb, Babe Ruth, Honus Wagner, any of these guys, Bill Russell, Gordie Howe, doesn't matter, Jim Brown. I want pieces of their, of their memorabilia in my collection. I'd rather have a piece of it of a destroyed jersey than know that some billionaire out there has a closet full of them and no one's ever going to see them until they die and then they're just going to go to another billionaire, be hidden away. But all the purists out there, at least they're not destroyed. And I. I hear that. But by time you're gonna. You'd have a chance to see them. You'll be dead anyway. Why aren't just images of these things online good enough? Why can't you watch old footage, you know, the choppy old footage and be. Be happy that that's there? Why do they have to be sitting in a billionaire's closet? And not everybody goes to Cooperstown. Not everybody gets to go to the hall of Fame. So again, I'm taking the. The contrarian position on this. I certainly respect the history guys. I certainly respect that these are artifacts and, and do deserve to be in museums. Pragmatically, it's just not, I don't think, happening as much. And then there's the whole thing about. Well, nowadays they wear a different jersey each quarter, each period, each half, so there's more of them to go around, so it doesn't really matter anymore. But for the, the older ones, I think it does. These things do exist on a hierarchy, and it would be. It would be tragic to see a, A legends piece of memorabilia from, like, you know, the, the first half of the 20th century be destroyed or a significant jersey from a true goat be destroyed and cut up and put into cards. It would be tragic, but I would still want to buy a piece of it. All right, that's. That's my piece on that. Let's go back to you, Josh. You had your hand up, I was gonna say. Then under that theory, you could just cut up the Mona Lisa and sell in pages and just look at pictures online. Yeah, you could. You could. That's. Yeah, it's a great point. However, there's a difference in that the Mona Lisa is already in a museum. So a lot of these things are already in mute. I don't think any jersey is coming out of the hall of Fame to go into cards. So I don't see that happening, Josh. But if the Mona Lisa, if there's another Da Vinci piece out there that is yet to be discovered, and someone's like, hey, I'm gonna follow the way of the sports card industry with this art. Let's cut it up. I mean, imagine a card company that could go buy that thing for, I don't know, 20 million, cut it up into a bunch of pieces and turn that into 30 million instead of, instead of selling it to. To some fine art museum in Chicago or New York or Paris or London. I mean, at the end of the day, Money, Money, you know, money matters. So it's a good analogy though, Josh. I don't know any David or Joe. David. Go ahead. I would feel different if it was a painting for me, for myself. I wouldn't want that cut up more. But would you feel different, Jeremy, if you found out that the under bidder against the card company was somebody who was going to donate the item to the hall of fame? I think that does throw a wrinkle into things. But again, again, once they, once they stop bidding, it becomes a moot point because they were not wealthy enough or did not, were not willing to spend enough of their money to, to save the, the artifact from being cut up by a card company. And again, it just come, you know, comes down to business and the highest bidder and yeah, people are going to be upset that a card company outbid them. Well, then people should start a GoFund. There should be a GoFundMe started by, by sports fans right now. And it can just be an open GoFundMe reserve where you can go donate money to save relics from card companies because we don't know which one it'll be. You don't, you don't want to be like, oh, well, hey, wait, they're about to cut up a Lou Garrick jersey. We got to raise one and a half million dollars. You might not have enough time. I really would like to, you know, urge the hobby somebody to start a GoFundMe to set. Save relics from card companies so that when we, when the hobby, when not the hobby, but when sports fans need that money, it's there ready to be deployed, to be saved. And then it goes into the GoFundMe holders account. And you know, they, they have, now they have. We also have to say start up a GoFundMe to rent space and have a museum for these salvaged pieces. So yeah, I mean, at the end of the day, the high bidder gets to decide what they do with it. That is the world we live in. If you don't, you know, if you don't like it, go to Russia, you know, like, seriously, that's the way. That's just the way the capitalistic society works. So you can either be a realist and just accept it, or you can come on shows like this and, and complain about it. So again, I don't want to see it happen. Right. But if it does, if it does, I'm a customer, so I want to own pieces of that, of that stuff. Anyone have anything else on it on the topic? No, David, Joe. No, no one wants to push back on me anymore because I'm happy. I can take it. I can take it. No. Okay. All right, well, let's hear from you guys in the chat. What do you think? Who is going to start this GoFundMe? Who is going to contribute to the GoFundMe? Because that's the only way really to, to make sure. We need to, we need to crowdsource saving these items. Let's move on guys. Next topic. This is a fun one. It ties into the whole, it sort of ties into the I appeal movement that we talk about a lot. I talk about a lot. I know all, all me, David, Joe, even Josh, we talk about it a lot. But this is the, the concept of upgrading by downgrading. And you know, you, for example, my Jackie Robinson that you all saw in episode two on the Jackie off is a PSA6, but it's horribly off centered. I could potentially go find a well centered PSA4 with maybe a little bit of a compromise on corners, you know, save myself 30, $40,000 to go buy cards elsewhere and, and have a nicer card, a card that has better eye appeal. Upgrading the eye appeal by downgrading the technical grade is what we're talking about here and just what people's thoughts are on that. You know, we, we grow up hearing by from everybody, buy the best you can afford to. Okay, well what's the best? Is it the best eye appeal is the best technical grade which, which stand set of standards is more important to you as a collector, as a hobbyist. So upgrading by downgrading, is it something that you do? Is it something that you've done? How do you feel when, when you've done it from your experience? Show of hands on the panel right now, who has ever upgraded a card by downgrading it? Yeah, I think I, I have too, Josh. You don't. Can't think of an instance of it. So why don't we start with you then, Josh, on the topic of upgrading by downgrading. And I think it mostly applies to vintage cards because modern and ultra modern, you know, unless we're talking about very condition sensitive cards, it really doesn't play. So let's frame this around vintage for the sake of this discussion. Josh, would you ever sell a high grade card that you maybe got into a while ago that's appreciated in value, maybe a six like my Jackie's example, to go buy a lower grade version that looks better and you have money left over? Without a doubt, there's no reason. I need a high grade. I don't need a high grade card ever. It's irresponsible of me. I would love a. Yeah, because you buy more cards. I think it's a great idea. I would. As has never done it, but I would definitely, I'm definitely open to the idea. Open to the idea. So does that mean then that you have less. You just said it yourself, you don't need a high grade card. So you're more about. You're a collect the card, not the grade kind of collector. Yeah. Right. Yeah. All right, Joe, what about you? Have you ever. You put up your hand? I know, I put mine up too, and I'm. Now I'm racking my brain, like, when did I actually do that? What card was it? I'm sure I've done it a few times. Maybe not in one transaction or a close series of transactions, but, you know, okay, I can let this go now and get another one later. Maybe I've let a card go and I'm, I'm want to replace it and I will. So there's all sorts of scenarios here. But Joe, what, what comes to mind for you? Yeah, well, let me, let me qualify the two versions of how I understand this downgrade to upgrade. Question. One is purely, you really do believe that the lower grade looks better. And I've, I've got a few of those. The other is that the proportionate cost in relation to the higher grade and the lower grade is so out of whack with your own valuation of the cards that it makes sense. So you may not actually be upgrading, but you're, you're facilitating something in the movement that's allowing you to get more assets, more resources for other collecting interest. The one, the one that truly for me was an upgrade by downgrading. It's a card actually, that's a little bit up in the hobby right now. The indignity of the 1959 tops Mickey Mantle. I had a six in an old PSA label. This was like, you know, maybe 10, 15 years ago. And it was off center. I mean, it was, it was pretty brutally off center. Sharp corners, nice gloss, but it just did not. And this was, you know, a, again, an old label. So I think the centering requirements for a six were, were not as, you know, strict as they are now. And anyway, I, I sold that thing, got, you know, a solid return and it ended up getting a really nice two that I did appreciate better now, you know, the two had, I think, a little bit of toning on the back and maybe, maybe like one of those divots that, you know, technically made it less, less of a higher grade. But for me, that was definitely a card I could appreciate and look at and enjoy more fully. Yeah, makes, yeah, makes complete sense to me. Okay, David, yourself. I think I've done it probably more than most of anybody here. I kind of. That, that's my collecting style is trying to find the best card in the lowest grade possible. The musial that you showed earlier that I ended up getting, I actually had a PSA6 of that card. It was not as nice as this one. I don't even know why. This one has a two. And I've looked at it very detailed. I mean, I really have. There must be some kind of small wrinkle in it or something. But I had a six. I sold the six for 1200, I bought that for 200, I ended up buying this for 200 first. And by the way, it is so much better than the six. It's better centered, it had better, it had better registration. Like there was no surface issues. It was an old label 6. And by the way, I sold it at the top price because it was still a nice looking card. I do that all the time. And like I've done that the Most with these 1961 FLIR basketball cards. The Oscar Robertson Rookie, the Jerry West Rookie, because they are so hard to find versions of that that are nice. And I've gone from threes to one and a halfs, back to twos to try to find the perfect version. And actually right now my favorite Jerry west rookie was at a one and a half. And then recently I found a four. So I did actually upgrade to upgrade, but that usually doesn't happen. But because that 4 was spectacular and I was like, okay, this is the. I think I don't know if I'll ever be able to improve upon this. I ended up upgrading to upgrading on that one version, but I upgraded down many, many times prior to getting that one. And, and by the way, I sold that one and a half for three prices because of. That's how nice that one and a half was. So I love the game. I love being able to find the cheapest, the lowest grade because that's what helps us afford more cards to find those beautiful versions. And when you see somebody that has one of those cards, at least for me, I am blown away because I know how much time and commitment it takes to find those. Yeah, well said. Yeah. So myself, I thought of, I thought of one example That I did it and a couple, couple where I could do it. So the first one is Bob, your 1966 tops rookie card. I had a copy in a PSA 8 holder that I purchased 15 years ago, probably something like that. And then I, I owned it for many years. I was set up at this Sport Card Expo in Toronto probably seven years ago and a guy I know came to my booth, actually the same guy that I got my Jackie Robinson from, probably five years great collector, came to my booth and he had a PSA 5.5 hold it holdered Bobby or rookie. And it was beautiful. It was, it was a stunner. It you, it looks like a seven and a half or an eight even, maybe even a nine. And so I bought it off him. I bought it just to have it because it was such a nice card and I owned the both cars. I thought, oh, maybe I'll just flip the five and a half, find a good home for it, you know, maybe make some money on it, put that money back into the hobby somewhere else. But as I held it and looked at it and put it beside my PSA and I'm like, I like the five and a half better. I sold the eight. So I upgraded my personal holding by downgrading the, the technical grade. I up peeled. That's pea for appeal. I appealed by downgrading. Yeah, just having some fun with words there. I also used to own a PSA 8 Opici Wayne Gretzky rookie card. And I have a couple of PSA4s that are beautiful. And maybe I didn't upgrade the 8 to these fours, but I was willing, I sold the eight. I have these fours. I'm just as happy with these beautiful fours as I was owning the 8 because they're just that nice. So I don't know that I actually upgraded by downgrading, but I upgraded my overall collection, at least the variety because I was able to take that money I sold the, the eight for and spend it on, on other cards. And then finally the Jackie, my PSA6 jack. Yeah, I'm brought back to that again. And you know, famously with David trying to buy that PSA one way back while back in February or March, you know, I seriously considered going for that card as well and selling my PSA 6. You know, I wasn't able to do that. I didn't do that. David wasn't able to either for various reasons to acquire that card. But I am more than. I guess the point is I'm more than willing to do it even if I Don't know that I'm doing it at the time I acquire the new card because I do love to set up at shows, buy and sell cards, but I also have a very collection that is very special to me and doesn't come to card shows with me. So sometimes I can pick up a lower grade card at a card show, bring it home and be like, hey, wait a second, this is my new copy. The other one can go and can go into the, into the showcase. So that's kind of how I feel about upgrading by downgrading. It's a great strategy like David says is kind of how he does things. Go ahead, Dave. So so much of the journey that you've been taking on Jeremy over the last few years, you, I mean now that you're showing all your cards on Instagram, I am seeing a lot of high graded, amazing vintage cards and like I'm, I'm blown away. And especially because like every conversation I've ever had with you, you know, I know that you now are looking for lower grade versions of these cards. So when you're at the national this year and you run across one of your cards that you have in a seven, is that a thought now that you would possibly upgrade by downgrading? That's a great, really good question, Dave. Really good. So you know, like I've got a really nice 54 tops, Hank Aaron and an Ernie Banks. I think my Aaron's a six and it's beautiful. My Banks is a seven. I think it's a plus or even God tier on I appeal Inc. But my answer is I'm not looking to do that. I, I am not aggressively looking to do that. I am, I. A lot of those high grade cards that you're seeing, I bought, you know, I bought them for great prices and I bought them all well before the pandemic. So now I could definitely do that. But I'm not out there aggressively looking for, I have other targets to look for that fit into my new style of collecting. Now if a PSA, if a Hank Aaron and a PSA4, I saw that and I'm like, wow, this is just as nice as my, as my six. I would, I would consider it. Yes, David, I guess to answer your question, I would consider it. But it's a lot different. That like, you know how I felt about the Jackie, right? I didn't want to do it. I told you previous I will never sell my Jackie. I'm emotionally attached to it so. But then I saw that one. I would really have to love the card. I also think it has to be for me, maybe a bit of a significant card. Bobby Orr is a top three hockey card to own, you know, as far as hall of Fame rookies go. So that was. And, and the eight, like I bought the. I sold it for, I don't know, six, seven times what I paid for it. Well, earlier. So I was just willing to do that. And plus I didn't love the. Here's the other thing, David. I did not love my eight. My eight was a week eight. So that's a key. I love my Hank Aaron and I love my Ernie Banks in their highest grades. So that's the other problem. Sometimes when you're upgrading by. Or up appealing by downgrading, you don't love the card you're downgrading. So that's how I. Right. Yeah. Yeah. Go ahead, Joe. Well, the landscape is changing before our eyes and so I, I think there's a little bit of a shrinking opportunity for the upgrading by downgrading window. And I mean, David, you probably are acutely aware of this because that is your lane, as, as you already said. But I'm, I'm curious, you know, just how many opportunities there are to find those kind of like your, your, your Ruth, Jaylee. I mean, that was like a needle in a haystack. Somebody, I, if I'm understanding it, brought it into the local card store and then, you know, you, it never went to a larger group or, you know, a larger sales platform, so you were able to kind of, I don't want to say luck into that, but, you know, right place, right time and, and I think those opportunities are getting fewer and far further between just with, with sellers. It shows. You know, Ash, you know, famously like running through the showroom before the doors even open, picking off the ones that have this, this higher level of eye appeal. So I don't know. It's, it's an interesting comment, David. Have you, have you noticed that it is that there are fewer opportunities out there to do what we're talking about? Without a doubt. And I think that we're paying higher than ever before on those cards that have high. I appeal, but I just really believe that the spread in the grade is going to still become larger and larger. Right. And I think that that's the main difference right now that I, I, as crazy as some people think it is, I think that the spread is still too close together for like what a one is, the high versus what the average is. I think an amazing one could be usually a Lot more than what it is at this point. So that's where the room is in the long term, in my opinion. When you say the spread is too narrow, you're talking within the grade for like the weakest of the ones to the strongest of the ones. You think that, that that spread is too narrow. It should be a lot. I, I agree with you. And that's just because the hobby is so enamored with technical grade over eye appeal. And that's just a result of really years and years of being preconditioned and years and years of drinking cherry Kool Aid, PSA flavored Kool Aid. So I hear you. Now you mentioned I lucked into the Babe. I absolutely lucked into that Babe Ruth. That was the right place at the right time thing. But. And Joe, this is your comment where it wasn't offered on a larger platform. But then my Joe Jackson is very similar in that it's super low grade and beautiful and that was on the, one of the biggest platforms out there. Fanatics collect where I had to. I was in a bidding war. Luckily I won that war. So yeah, it can happen both ways for sure. Yeah, good stuff there. Josh, anything else to add on upgrading by downgrading? No. Okay, love it. David or Joe? Anything else? No? Okay, well then let's go to the next topic because this one is somewhat related. Sometimes you, you wanna, you wanna like get a different copy of a card and sometimes you might like. Okay, context. I picked up my Joe Jackson a year ago, over a year ago now. And I. It was basically a big trade. I basically traded away 330 cards for one and made some very difficult decisions. And I had to get, I had to give up some cards that I had owned for a long time and some that I really loved. For example, my Wayne Gretzky OPICI run now, not the first or second year, but I gave up his third, fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh day, ninth, 10th year cards. And some of them were, you know, a couple, I think were five figure cards because they were all. I had them all in PSA tens. And I decided for myself, you know what? I can give these up because the only reason they're worth so much is the GR is the grade scarcity. It's simple. Simply the plastic around it that is assigning it such a high value. Because a PSA 101985 Opici Gretzky card, while rare in that grade, I can go find a 9 for a fraction of the price. It looks just as nine as most, just as nice as most, most of the tens. So I went and I gave those cards up thinking to myself, I'll replace it one day. But as time has gone by now a year has gone by, it's like I don't really feel the desire. It's not even on my list. I'm not even. I don't have a saved search on them. I'm not looking to replace that card. I had my time owning one of the finest copies. So the topic, this next sort of related topic is and this is a question that came from a viewer a couple weeks ago on sports Cards Live. And I apologize that viewer, I did not record who it was, but here's what they wrote. They said at what point does the experience of owning a card allow you to let it go? Can it allow you to let it go? So a lot of us buy cards thinking we're going to hold these till we die. But I've also heard some people say, you know what, I've owned the card and I don't have it anymore. But that's still meaningful to me. I'm collecting the memories of having owned the cards. I've asked some people before who've sold me cards like why are you selling this? And they're like, well, I had my time with it. I owned it. I never understood that until I got forced into that position or I put myself in that position and I started thinking about it like ah, like I had to give up my Jim Brown 58 tops rookie card. My John unit is 57 tops rookie card. I really don't. The unit is. I especially don't have any interest in. In replacing right now because I've got his second year that just. I love this card so much, you know, it doesn't even matter with. It's a beautiful five and I bought it at the west coast card show. I think. The west coast, yeah. But no, I bought at the national last year for like 110 bucks or something like that. This holds that place for me. I had the rookie. I'm good. I have those memories. I don't really need to own it again. So just going around, around the horn here and there is another level to this which. But let's go around the horn first. Like have. The question is have you guys ever disposed of a card and felt, you know what? I don't need to get that copy that a copy of that card again. I've owned it already. Does that ever happen to you? Do you feel like having owned a card is an ex. Is an experience that you're happy to have had and you don't need to continue to own it. Put up your hat. Who wants to, who wants to go first? Let's see the. Okay, Joe, please. Absolutely. I used to fool myself and say, you know, I'll definitely get this card again someday, but I gotta generate some cash right now, so I'm gonna move off now. I don't even, I, I say, well, this may be the moment of no longer having a particular card because I've observed within my own patterns that when I do say goodbye to the card, it's just not as important as it as I thought it was. The fact that I'm even able to entertain getting rid of that card amidst all the other cards that I could have selected because, you know, I have a somewhat vast collection after 40 years of collecting, would suggest that it's probably not at the upper echelons of cards that I prize. What this really speaks to for me also is the importance of actually interacting with your cards to know and, or to realize at a certain point that you've had your time with it. And, and I do believe that there are some cards that I still think of very fondly that I no longer own. And there's some regret in it, but there was enough enjoyment and experience with that card, holding it, displaying it, kind of knowing that I had it in my possession. And so I think about that in relation to some of the cards that live in my safety deposit box or up at Fanatics, and I think, like, well, would I have the same experience, the direct experience of having them in hand, that if and when I do get rid of them, I will feel like I had that ownership experience that in some ways is meaningful and valuable in its own right. Appreciate those thoughts. It made me think of a couple of, of questions that I want David and Josh to consider and even you, Joe. First one is, does the holding period come into play? Like, I know that if I, if I bought a card as a kid and held it for 25 years, sold it. I've regretted selling those cards before. It's not that I, it happened with my, my 85 op cheap Mario Lemieux rookie card that I bought on January 1, 1986, when it first came out for 25 cents at. At ABD Cards in Winnipeg, and I sold it at the Toronto Expo because I had bought a nine and I'm like, damn, I want that eight back. That was my childhood copy. It's not that I want another Lemieux card, although I have one. It's that I Wanted that specific copy back. That's just some weird, you know, weird collector stuff going on there. So does. But. But if you hold the card for 10 years and sell it versus buy a card, love it, have it for a month, and then sell it, does the holding period matter? And then secondly, when you do dispose of some. Some cards that you, you know, enjoyed owning, do you keep a database or. Or like, an image bank of cards that you own so that you can go back and, and, and remember them? You don't have to look at them physically and hold them in your hand. But, hey, do you ever go look at those cards you used to own and feel good about? I used to own that card. That kind of thing. Do you want to respond to those two first things, Joe, before you go to the other guy? So the, the holding period, does it matter? And do you keep images of old ones? Yeah, the holding period, I'd say varies, depending on if it was like, a childhood or like something deeply meaningful, you know, a gift or an important moment. So it, it varies. There's been cards that I've been happy to get rid of that I've had in my hands for 25 years, and then there's been some that I've only had for five. That kind of hurt. But I definitely know what you're talking about with the Lemieux, and I've made a couple of those mistakes, and I try not to make them anymore because usually they're not. It's. It's not. It's more an impulsive thing and not something that you even really need the cash. And then you realize after the fact, oh, wow, that was that 25 cent, you know, childhood card, the database thing. I am the worst at keeping track of these things. Occasionally I'll come across old, you know, photos, and we're like, oh, yeah, I had that card, or, oh, yeah, that card. But I am. I am not that guy that keeps track, either visually or in any other way, of my. Of my collection. Cool. No. Good to hear it. All right, let's. Let's go to you, David Chase, to start by answering both of those last questions. The holding period does matter. I think that I really have two kinds of cards that would hurt the most to let them go. I. I've never sold any of the cards that really meant that much to me as a child. One of them is like a consecrated rookie I got for, like, my 10th birthday. That was like, my most meaningful card. I actually gave that to my son. He loves it. And I'd be Offended if he sold that card. And the other thing is like my garbage Pail Kid collection from when I was a kid that got me into cards in general. And I still have like the stuff couple series that I have of that. So I love both of those. I wouldn't sell them, and if I did, I would have regret. But cards that I've purchased since being an adult, they don't have as much sentimental value to me. So yes, it's really bad childhood glee. Does the sentiment have you? Okay, Because I even like my Jackie, for example, that I bought 15 years ago. I think I bought in 2013. So 13 years ago, had I sold it 6 12, 18 months later, I probably wouldn't have thought twice about it. But now that I've owned it for so long, the sentimental value has. Has accrued over time to where, even though I've had it as an adult. Does is that a phenomenon that happens with you could think about a card you bought? No, as an adult, I have a lot of those and I have let some of them go, no problem. Yeah, I actually don't have as much of a problem with that, even though I understand why it would. The longer that it's in your collection. Just I'm a hardened statue. And if with a cold heart. And if you've sold the card without replacing it, have you ever. Then to the crux of the original question, have you ever kind of just evolved or grown it to be like, you know what? I thought I'd want to replace it, but I don't need to. I own that card. Like, does that happens to me all the time. And. And there are some times where I've even thought that I might replace it, and I haven't felt the need to it. A lot of times they've been like. A lot of times it's. It's cards that are higher value because of the plastic that they're in. Joe Montana, rookie Jerry Rice, rookie Barry Sanders, rookie, which I've had for a long time. Some of those cards, I let them go. I was like, do I need these cards? I'm not really sure. And then I realized I don't need them once I let them go. And I'm actually having a really big power struggle right now with this exact same topic. Because now that I've completed most of these leaf hall of Famers, I really don't know if I need to keep the hall of Famers that are not the most meaningful to me, but they have. I have gone through four or five copies of a lot of these cards to find the perfect copy for me. So I know that they're not going to be replaced. So if I let these go, I will not get a copy that's similar to this. And I have to in my mind get to the point where I can, if I do let them go, know that I will not get them back. I will not be collecting them again. And it's a struggle that I'm going with right now and I think that I'm going to let some of them go. Wow. That's huge. Interesting. Yeah. Breaking news there from David Chase as he breaks up his 48 leaf set. No, that's incredible. But that's, you're, you're evolving and changing and we have, as collectors and humans and individuals, we all have the right to change our style, our approach to collecting. You know, the Hobby Spectrum project puts you, puts you, helps you identify where you fall on that spectrum on at a given point in time. That's why we set it up to be able to retake it every 30 days. So you can see how you do evolve across many different spectrums within the hobby. Many different axes is the word I was looking for within. Within the hobby. So great stuff there, David. Appreciate those thoughts. Joshua Adams. Same thing to you. Do you ever feel like I owned the card? I don't need it again? That was my time with it. Send some cards. I'll give an example. I sold two sets that I spent like 20 years building. Some of the cards are very hard to get rid of because I had such a long time. And then I. But I figured I can always buy them again because they're very plentiful and I sold them to buy a card I really had a once in a lifetime shot at. So I've started already. I'll give you an example. 48 leaf, 49 leaf. I started redoing the. Started doing the short prints again. I didn't want. I got rid of the whole set. I didn't need the, the regular run cards, so I just only want the short prints. So I'm doing that again. That's a lot of fun. I sold a 33 Gowdy set. I'm like, I don't want to spend like so much money on a hundred and some common guys, you know. So like I had my time with those cars. That was fun. The hardest to get rid of was the page. But you can always get it back. All you need is money. That's a. I love, I love the, you know, the set aspect because I did that same thing with my C56 and C55 hockey sets, the 19, 10 and 11 sets. I had the complete 56 set. The first set of hockey cards, I g. I kept the six key cards and sold the rest to get the Joe Jackson. I owned that whole set at one time. I have that on my, in my hobby history resume. I have images of them. If I ever want to go back and see them, I don't need them again. I'm okay. Just like you don't need that whole set anymore. It's like that my whole thing about not being a prisoner to the checklist or being a slave to the checklist sort of thing. Right? So that's a good sort of use case of this whole discussion for one sec, David. For me, a lot of it does come down to the rarity. You know, the, the, the more rare a card is, the harder it is to let it go because you're gonna have a tougher time getting it back. Like David just discussed now, rare could be a card number out of 10, or it can be a super high eye appeal, you know, vintage card that is just impossible to find. And if a card is readily available, like let's say a flagship rookie or anything, a Young Guns or a Gretzky rookie or a Jordan Fleer, like I owned a Jordan Flir. I sold it. I don't want it back. Especially now that it's more expensive than when I sold it. Like, I don't, I don't need it back. When a card is so readily available, I find that I just want it less in many, many cases. David. So, Josh, I just wanted to ask you because I know that, you know, we bond all the time about that leaf set and man, for you to let go of that set. And I know how much you love those short print leaf cards. The page, the Newhouser. Right. The Kel. Those are cards that are all on your list right now. So do you regret getting rid of those and being on this constant hunt? No. So I still have the new Hauser. It's my favorite card in the set. Never getting rid of that card. I love the Hunt. To me, the hunt is 90 of the fun. It's so much fun going to shows, going online, looking at auctions, and then when one pops up, you're like, oh my God, I need that one. To me, that's so much fun. I love that part of the hobby. Yeah, Josh, I, I went through that too. And I, when I did the Jackie Robin. Sorry. When I did my Joe Jackson maneuver, I broke up my C56, my C55 sets, I gave up all those cards. I kept the key cards for myself. And, you know, it opened up capital available for the Joe Jackson. It also allows me to appreciate those cards even more. They're no longer in my box. Scattered within a 36 or a 50 card set, they're easier to appreciate. So I like the idea of not being beholden to those checklists and being able to give up those cards and not wanting them back. And, you know, you may one day decide that you want them back. It just depends where the rest of your priorities are. So good stuff. Any other thoughts on the topic? Joe? David I, I just would underscore that every time I think I'm gonna have some kind of loss, unless it's a childhood card that has a deeply sentimental connection, I'm usually just, it's like out of sight, out of mind. It's like onward, forward, excelsior. Yeah, it's a good, if you can do that, if you have that mental power to do that. It's, it's a, it's a wonderful thing for sure. Josh or Dave, anything else on these topics? Because I want to, Josh, you know, okay, so viewers, listeners, if you're watching, listening, let us know in the comments below. A couple of things. Have you upgraded by downgrading? What card did you do it for? What was the old grade? What was the new grade? Did it, did you sell a graded card to buy a raw copy to replace it for yourself? And secondly, have you ever let a card go and been okay not having to replace it? Then you thought you might want to replace it, but you decided not to because you know what? You had your time with that card. Let us know some of those experiences that you may have had down in, in the comments below. Guys, we will be back again this coming Saturday for Sports Cards Live. Be sure to check that out. If you are watching this and you are watching this on the Sports Card Clubhouse, be sure to also subscribe to Sports Cards Live. That's where you can catch the episode before the Hangover Live streaming every Saturday night and then available for you. Also available on the Sports Cards Live podcast. But we're glad to be here on the Clubhouse with the Hangover. This was episode three. Thank you, Joe. Thank you, David. Thank you, Josh. Thank you to the Sports Card Clubhouse team. We will see you back here again next week. The hangover.