Is The Hobby Officially Mainstream Now With More High-Profile Celebs Collecting Cards?; Will Lays Out Epic Idea For A New Grading System; Which New Sets Worth Checking Out?

You're listening to Cards to the Moon, a podcast about trading cards from both a collector and investor perspective. We hope you'll stick around for the ride as we take a deep dive into the state of the hobby. Share some hot takes, hopefully some useful advice and fun stories along the way. Hey guys, welcome back to Cards to the Moon. This is episode 376 and my name is Clark from 5CardGuys.com you can also find me at 5Card Guys on Instagram, YouTube, Facebook and on TikTok. Coasting with me today is Will, who is at TopRolePop on IG and Roy, who is at Minocards on IG as well. All right, off the top today, since Will and Roy are here, let's talk about new set releases in the Pokemon and WWE world. I just want to ask you guys, are there any cards or boxes that are worth checking out and any new ones announced recently which might get more buzz later in the year? So, Will, I'll throw it to you first. Any WWE products sets? Yeah, there's one that just released this past week, Topps Chrome Cosmic, which is a set that's become very popular with all the major sports, especially baseball. And I think this year basketball and football have Topps Chrome Cosmic. And so they've got a wrestling version of it. I'm, I was kind of excited about it. You know, a lot of these releases are first year releases. The general reaction from a lot of the WWE hobbyists are a little bit mixed on it. I had one friend of mine equate it to Cactus Jack and I was just like, I was like, oh, those, those are some harsh, harsh words, Critique. But yeah, over the last couple months we've had some pretty good releases, like the tops, royalty. I think we talked about that with the WrestleMania patches and stuff like that. So it's been, it's been a nice couple months of releases. I don't know if there's anything scheduled to come out anytime soon. So we might hit another little bit of a lull in wrestling collecting, which should then increase interest in all the sets that have released before. Okay, yeah, I want to go back to Topps Chrome Cosmic because I, I do agree that it's kind of a slow burn because when it came out for baseball, like, what is this, like sat. You could get a Saturn, Pluto, like all these different planets, Jupiter, you know, parallels. And you know, I remember kind of, you know, rolling my eyes. But a year and two, it's, I'm telling you, man, I'm like, this is Kind of cool. I kind of want the. And then it's like the distance from the sun is. Oh, that's kind of the rarity level. Yeah. So Pluto, very rare, and then Mercury very. Or more common than the other planets. So all these little things kind of. I find it appealing all of a sudden. So maybe that's the same thing for wrestling card fans out there. It might be something to get used to. Yeah, I feel like that's the problem with Cosmic. It just doesn't have enough good publicity. It doesn't have enough good marketing. I think the cards look really good. The artwork is really nice. One of the cool things about wrestling cards is different artworks or different sets will have a wrestler maybe with a championship belt or with, like, without the championship belts. So any. I feel like anytime there's a card that has the wrestler that I like and they're holding a championship belt, it kind of just increases the. The likability and the collectability of that card. And so, like, for example, Eos sky is a big, you know, big PC collection of mine. She's got one of those Cosmic cards where she's holding her championship belt. So, yeah, I like the artwork. I think it just needs some better publicity. It needs time for people to catch on. And like you said, nobody knows about the planet thing. And I feel like people don't even know how rare some of the cards are. That's true. So that means it's time to just scour ebay and pick up all the rare cards before. Yeah, I think a lot of smart people. Yeah, I think a lot of smart people are scooping up a lot of stuff. But then it's like after a while, you. You feel like you're taking crazy pills, right? Like stocking up on Pluto. Yeah, man, I've got like 52 plutos, but nobody seems to be outbidding me on any of these. Like, I haven't lost an auction. You gotta have conviction. You gotta. Yeah, you gotta stick to your guns. That's right. Cool. How about Pokemon World? Any. Any new releases? Yeah, so there are. In Japan, Abyss Eye just came out, which is like the Mega Dark Race It Darkrai. And then I guess pitch black, which is the equivalent in the English. The pre order just happened. I think it was last week or something. So that should be coming out, I think sometime in July or maybe even August. But after that set, it's gonna be the. It should be the Mega Rayquaza set, which is gonna be a huge, huge, huge set to chase. So. And then after that, there's the 30th anniversary as well. I don't know which one's gonna come first in English, but those are the two next sets. So the past three sets, I think it was what, Pitch black. Perfect. Perfect order and chaos rising. There was. Those are kind of like, you know, after Phantasmal flames, those are the next sets after. So after a big hype, there's kind of like a. I guess not. Yeah, exactly. A mess. That's like not. Not too much hype. The chase cards aren't the greatest. It's. They're still enjoyable but you know, compared to all the sets prior and then what's going to be coming out, I think it's like the perfect. You know, you save your money not buying those three sets and then you save them for 30th anniversary and the, the mega requisite set whenever that comes out. So that'll be. That'll be exciting. But in terms of what it has released now. Yeah. Again, pitch black. So it's doesn't tickle my fancy, but you know what? I was trying to get pitch black. Couldn't do it. People are still buying like crazy. Yeah, I know. I mean pre orders is pretty easy to get. Like today there was a, like, I think there's a in stock Prismatic drop. Oh. Oh. I didn't get a text message. I didn't either. Because by the time I even knew about it, it was already sold out. Like, so I, I knew when the queue hit and by the time I entered, the queue is already sold out. There's no point messaging, you guys. Roy's letting us down. No, I know, I know. Sorry, guys. But yeah, in terms of, in terms of sets, you know, skip the next Skip Pitch Black, save your money for 30th, and the Rayquaza set, whenever that is. Rayquaza, that's a. Yeah, that's a huge character. Okay, thanks for that. And on the sports side of things, I'll just wrap up this off the top. I ordered the 2026 top series two. I got a jumbo box. So that's gonna ship out to me soon. And I'll rip it on camera so you guys can see which awesome relic card that I got and which no Name Auto. But yeah, we'll. We'll see what I get from that jumbo box. I also got the 2026 tops, Chrome V Friends, the Mega Box. Like I'm telling you veefriends, I don't know what Gary Vee's doing, but the drops, they're selling out quickly. He's a marketer too, right. So like he's getting the word out there. Yeah. The only reason type of bounty as well. Like a six figure bounty on one of the cards. Yeah, like there's like an erupt which is like the equivalent of a kaboom subset and there's a super fractured version of the very, very, very lucky black cat or something like that. Right. Six figures on that card already. Yeah. And the only reason why I was able to get a mega box, I couldn't even get a hobby or I don't know if he has jumbo, but I couldn't even get a hobby box was I have my good old NFT that gives me one allocation of a mega box. So that's, that's coming to me as well and I'll also rip that on camera and see what hits I get. But yeah, and oh, one more thing. 2026, I just saw this on my email from Topps 2026 Topps Dynamic Duels Baseball. And I believe this is a brand new set they're coming out with starting this year. Who knows if they'll come out with it next year, but it has a dual autograph card per box. And the dual autographs that you can get can be two teammates like Mookie Betts and Shohei Ohtani card or two players on the same team past and present like Ellie De La Cruz and Barry Larkin or George Brett and Bobby Witt Jr. And then you could get other variations of dual cards, you know, top rookies, things like that. So kind of looks cool. I don't know what it retails for. It didn't say the price, but it is going to be released mid July I believe so might be of interest if the price is right for like I said, the 2026 Topps Dynamic duels Baseball set. Okay, let's move on to hobby headlines. Alright. In today's discussion it's centered on one question, alright? And that question is has the hobby officially crossed over to the mainstream? Or another way of asking this question is, guys, are we as collectors officially cool? All right. Because in all seriousness, I'm asking because week after week I'm seeing more and more of the hobby in the news. More and more famous celebrities and athletes ripping packs. I sent this article to you guys off air. It was published a couple weeks ago on ESPN.com that MLB players aren't just ripping sports cards in the clubhouse, which we've covered on the pod before, but. But now they're ripping Pokemon cards like we talked about Jacob Mizyrosski, of course, who's a Cy Young candidate. Chris Sale, another Cy Young candidate as well this season. And there's a funny story about Chris Sale in the article, which I'll bring up in a minute. But there's also Karl Anthony Towns, who just won the NBA championship with the Knicks, and he's been ripping, as we know, high end WWE packs all throughout the finals apparently. And he's trying to get that, you know, we, I think we talked about this. He's trying to get that John Cena WrestleMania patch auto. And if that wasn't enough, Kat, along with YouTube star Jesser, who I know because my son watches his videos, both of them will be ripping packs with Ken golden later this month. Kind of what Logan Paul did with Ken golden that one night when all the big auctions ended up. So I know we touched upon this before a bit on the pod, but I want to ask again, are we at the point now that there's enough high profile celebs that the stigma of collecting as a nerds hobby is gone, or do we still have a ways to go or do we even want this kind of attention on the hobby? What are your guys initial thoughts on everything that's transpired in the last few weeks? So I think when I was growing up collecting cards, like baseball cards was actually very like a very cool thing to do. Like I don't know any boys who didn't collect cards. And you know, we grew up in the 90s, so it was junk wax era, so those cards were everywhere. So I never felt like it was like a nerdy thing to do to collect baseball cards. And then when it comes to Pokemon, like sure you can say oh like it's a, it's an anime, it's a cartoon or whatever. But it's like I don't know what kids didn't grow up watching cartoons and loving cartoons. So like it's getting back in touch with your childhood. And I never feel like that's a nerdy or geeky thing to do. And I feel like, I feel like there isn't really that much of a stigma left in terms of the that part. Like collecting, like, I think it's always been cool. I think there's certain segments of the hobby. You know, your circle is just really small. Will. No, but like think of like, like even for you, Roy, you grew up playing hockey. Yeah, like hockey. Like our hockey players, like like typically jocks are the more popular kids in school and whatnot and all that stuff. Definitely you were ripping hockey cards and you grew up with hockey cards. Yeah, yeah, they're ripping. Hockey players would rip hockey cards. But if you told your hockey teammates that you're ripping Pokemon or Yu Gi oh or whatever, they'll be like, you are a nerd or you're a loser. You get those types of comments because it's not considered cool, right? Saying the exact opposite. I don't know, I just, I guess I grew up with such a different, in such a different childhood. It was just like, well, it's just like, I mean, childhood is different because whatever you do, it's, you know, you, you do it with your friends and collecting baseball cards. You probably did it with all your friends. So that seemed cool because you're already within your circle. But as you get into an adult and your friends or your peers hear that you're spending thousands of dollars, tens of thousands, you know, on sports cards or Pokemon cards, they're gonna think you're crazy or you're, they're gonna think like, what are you doing with. Why are you wasting your money like that? Because, you know, fifteen thousand dollar card you're buying, you could, you know, pay your mortgage, you could, you know, put your kids into private school or you know, go to a nice dinner, go on a vacation. Sure. You're talk though, like when you're like, isn't that what we're talking about right now? I'm just saying, like growing up as a kid, I never felt it was uncool because everyone collected some sort of card. And then as a teenager it's like, yeah, maybe you fall out of collecting a little because you're more interested in chasing girls or guys or. Exactly. Then it becomes, yeah, then it becomes uncool because you're not going to go to a girl and like, yeah, I'm still. Yeah, but it's not, it's not top series. You just like lose interest. And then when you're an adult and if somebody loses me, if somebody came to me and was like, oh, like, why are you spending $15,000 on this card? Or whatever, it's like, yeah, you know what? I bought a $15,000 card and now I sold it for $250,000 and I just, I'm rich. Not go there. Yeah, it's like, if my friends who got into like investing in stocks at an early age, if I'm like, oh, you nerd. You spend time on your computer pressing numbers and making money, it's like, no, but the making money is hindsight. It's like Crypto, you know, you were probably like, why are you spending your money on digital currency when it was like 50 cents? And you're probably scoffing at them. And then, you know, 10 years later they're like. But when they're an adult. When you're an adult, like, what do you care? Like, I stopped caring about what people think at a very. Not. Not everyone is as secure as you. Maybe that's the problem. I live in my own world. I enjoy my world. I shape my world how I want. Totally confident guy for sure. I have a great time, but. So maybe I'm the wrong person to answer. It's never been uncool. It'll never not be cool to me. I love it. And I'm glad all the athletes. I'm glad Kat's collecting. I'm glad, like, you're looking at the studs of every sport. They're all collecting, you know. Yeah. But I mean, when you see some of these interviews, I think there's a recognition that is pretty nerdy and pretty uncool until fairly recently, which is why I'm bringing it up. Because even though the fact that we're lucky that we're able to make money in this hobby, because if it was a money losing thing, we'd be all losers still. Yeah, that was the hobby, like what, five, six years ago? It's probably a not money making hobby. Like, you'd really have to hustle to make the money. Exactly. I'm the wrong person. I'm. I'm just like, I'm so, I'm so. What's the word? I just like, live and let live, you know, everyone just do what they want to do. Like, it's fine. Like, sure. To go back to that. I don't think we're there yet. Even though these superstar athletes are, you know, getting into sports cards. Pokemon cards, just the hobby in general. Because the. What people see, like, if they see cat ripping cards and they're not into cards, they're just gonna scroll on to the next reel, like, and it's as if it never happened. So the exposure is, you know, it's getting there. But I don't think it's to the point where it's like, oh, sports cards are cool. I think people are still thinking, okay, it's, it's a hobby. You know, you do it for fun. You know, some people's hobbies are making pottery, some people is, you know, making pottery, you know, collecting sports cards. But at the end of the day, it's a hobby. So they're not gonna jump into it and be like, okay, I'm gonna spend my money. And if they do, it's more. It's not because of these athletes. It's because they hear, you know, the return on investment of, you know, I bought a shohei for a thousand, now it's 15,000. So they're like, oh, you can make money. So they're gonna get into the hobby because of the money aspect rather than the mainstream aspect of these celebrities or athletes. But it's definitely helping for sure. But I don't think we're there yet. Yeah, for sure. You know how they were saying, like, I forget who was it? Was it Michael Rubin who said he wanted to 10x the hobby? Who's. Who said that? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like a lot of people took that as like 10x, like in terms of profitability. But I think what we have to think of it is like almost like 10x in the hobby in terms of interest and how, how much it's in our culture. And so I think in a lot of ways he's, he's been accurate. He's been true. We are. The hobby really is growing. But I, I realized as we were talking, I will, the. I will know exactly when hobby, when cards are cool. It's because there's only one person in my life who calls me a loser, and that's my wife. So when our wives, when Clark's wife and Roy's wife and my wife are subscribed to this podcast. Yeah. And they create their own Wives of Cards of the Moon podcast. That's. That's when I'll know that this is actually cool. Well said. I agree 100%. That's a good gauge for sure. But, but, but, yeah, no, I, I want to go back to what Roy, you're mentioning about, you know, people getting to hobby because they realize they can make money. But I feel like it's not mutually exclusive with seeing celebs coming in, coming into the space, because I feel like a lot of these high profile celebs are coming into it because they could see that they can make money and they already have money to start with. So they're buying, they're buying. They're the more high risk, high reward. Yeah, exactly. Kind of shirts. Right. I mean, I'm not saying that having these guys rip in front of, you know, an audience isn't bringing more people to the hobby, because it definitely is. But to the point of, is it mainstream yet? I, I don't think we're there yet fair. That's fair. And just to add, I'm kind of going all over the place. But just to add to what Will was mentioning and how he would know when the hobby is cool with our wives getting into it, which may or probably never happen. But when I, you know, even I was walking home from school, dropping off our kids, and then I saw my neighbo neighbors and so they live three, four houses down from where I live. And I'm like, hey, I'll just walk back home with you guys. And we're talking and, you know, I don't know why, but I'm still sheepish about talking about what I do. You know what I mean? Like, it's like, yeah, you know, I'm a content creator. For what? Yeah, you know, for trading cards or like I always say sports cards. And they're like, what, sports cars? Because that's much cooler. Sports cars are much cooler than sports cars still. And you can see how they were like really impressed for half a second until I corrected them. I'm like, no, no, like, I mean, baseball cards and things like that. They're like, oh, yeah, cool. Ironically, that's how many of them will respond. But yeah, imagine what I say. It's like they ask me, oh, what do you do? Collect Pokemon cards. Oh, yeah, so does my son. Okay. Oh, I've had those conversations too. And then I have to like, I feel like I have to justify myself by saying These are worth $20,000, you know? Yeah. I mean, I don't care at the end of the day, but it's just, yeah, I'm not bragging, saying I buy and sell and collect Pokemon cards, but you know, for me, it's fun, it's a hobby. And I, if I can monetize it, it's even better. So for sure, it's, it's. Yeah, I agree with you too, though. It's. It still feels niche, but it's getting bigger. I think that's something that we can agree on. But one major con, I want to go with the pros and cons, but one major con that I could think of for, you know, all these high profile celebs and just this attention on the hobby is that it tends to inflate the price of everything. Right. Like you have all these rich people, wealthy people pouring their cash on high end product causes hype, of course, and then it could also increase demand in general because everyone wants to get into a hobby. There are these big ticket sales. You see them all over Instagram, all over social media. Oh, and this is a good segue to that one funny story I was alluding to off the top. When Logan Paul sold his Pikachu illustrator for 16.5 million in the article, in the ESPN article, Chris alone, who by this time, he has like, I think he said he had 2,000 slab Pokemon cards. So he got into it pretty deep pretty quickly. And at that sale of the 16.5 Pikachu illustrator, he said he joked with his wife that he was the winning bidder. And for a second, his wife believed him because he thought he was crazy enough to do that. But. But yeah, going back to my point, with all this money coming into the hobby, do you think the hobby is becoming too expensive for regular collectors? You know, even Kat, he's buying a case of. He bought a case of WWE royalty. The thing that the high ends that you mentioned earlier. Well, and it feels like only someone like that can afford to do that, right? So what do you think about that part of the hobby? All these rich, wealthy collectors coming into the space, are they ruining it for us? In other words, not everyone gets to go to the Maldives. Not everyone gets to fly to the moon in a spaceship. Not everyone gets to rip national treasures or tops royalty. There's something for everyone in the hobby. If you have champagne tastes, but a beer budget, you're buying Coors Light, you're buying, you're buying Molson Canadians. You can't, you can't be getting that high end stuff. And there is something that will satisfy your need. There is something that you'll fall in love with. If it's truly about collecting, if it's about, oh, boohoo, like I don't get to have what other people have. I mean, that's just the reality of life. So you gotta, you gotta embrace that. Because if none of the rich people were collecting, yeah, maybe you'd get that card, but it'd be 20 bucks and you would probably not value it very highly. Right? Yeah, everyone, it's like going to the gym. Everyone starts somewhere, right? There's a good jack guys, and then the new, the newcomers. No, if you make fun of the newcomers, they're gonna leave, right? If you help and support them and you tell them that you got to start small, work your way up, you can get there. And it's like, it's the grind, it's the hustle. If you hustle hard, you know, with a, like a beer budget as well. Was saying you could get to that champagne. Maybe not, you know, the highest of high, but you can, you could start ripping packs or buying packs or whatever it is and enjoy the hobby like everyone else. You just have to, you just have to grind. Yeah. So great advice from Will and Roy. That's why I want to bring it up because I know that's a common complaint out there. Right. And yeah, you got to put everything into perspective, that's for sure. I got another con though that I kind of hear a lot is, and we've been talking about this the last few weeks on our pod is the demand on grading. So a lot of them, a lot of these athletes are actually partnering with psa and they all know, you know, they all know the value of PSA 10 cards now. And you know them just really getting into grading isn't doing anything to relieve the backlog, which I believe is still at 14 million. I checked yesterday, it's stuck at 14 million. So it's going to be another eight, nine months if you're, if you just submitted it recently. But the reason why I bring this up because in that ESPN article, once again, another story about Chris Sale was that he pulled when he got into Pokemon. Again, I think it was his brother in law that got him into it. He pulled a, he was pulling a base set, I think a 1999 base set and he got a Rayquaza fresh out of the pack. He said he submitted it right away, like fresh out of the pack. He was sure he would get a PSA 10, came back a PSA 8. Okay. And he said he was so obsessed with getting like a better grade. Cracked it, resubmitted it I think three or four times. Wow. The fourth time he got a PSA nine. So. Well, I want to, I feel like I want to ask you, how do you feel about that when you hear stories like that? Just the resubbing and just wait, you know. Yeah. I'll reserve my comments for a little bit later in the pod when we, when we approach this topic again. Yeah, okay. Okay. That's a good tease. Roy, any thoughts on that? Yeah, I get like, with grading the PSA to resub, I know a lot of people say PSA is please submit again. But yeah, if you're not scared to, you know, put a little bit money down because that's what I think that's what scares a lot of, you know, I guess regular people is they're like, oh, I got a nine. Okay, I'm just gonna sell it. But the savvy ones, the ones that are a little bit more risky but also they kind of know what they're looking for. When they look at cards, they'll take the risk. And, you know, whether it's sending it regular and you're paying a hundred dollars Canadian or $70 US or whatever it is, they're willing to take that risk. And does it pay off? You know, let's say it's like a $300 card raw. And then PSA 10 is like 3. 3,000. Let's say it's 2,000. If you. If you really think it could get a 10 and you try four times, it's still worth that risk. Right. If it doesn't hit the 10, then, you know you're out. But you have to look at it as a whole level, like a whole playing field. Yeah, you're gonna get some out. Sometimes you're gonna lose. But as long as you're up overall, I think that's, you know, that's the risk you're willing to take. Yeah, you could. You could still win. Right. The math makes sense, but. Well, you and I know this. This is what's wrong with grading. Right. This is one of the many things that's wrong with grading. Yeah, but same card, and it could get a different grade. If you see cards enough and you grade enough, you kind of know what you're looking for. So then when you do get that nine, you say, okay, I could understand why I got the nine. But if you're like, if you do it often and you know what a 10 is, you take that risk. Right. You know what I'm looking for? A real lenient grader. That's what I'm looking for. Oh, yeah, that's. That's the hope. But, you know, if you don't do any prep or, like, any, you know, looking at the card, seeing where the defects are, like, Will, you're gonna come back with not a lot of tense. Yeah. I'm not gonna lie. I have no idea when I'm sending off a card, what great it's gonna. What great it deserves. But, like, you're saying, like, there's, you know, we. We saw Jeff Wilson. Like, he does a lot of PSA reveals, and it's just like, oh, I really thought this was a. I really thought this was a 9. Or. I really thought this was gonna 10. And like, this guy is like. Like, he is in the hobby. Like, we're in the hobby. He's like, he's so deep in the hobby. And I think that's a problem. Right? Like. Like, you're saying, Roy, that there are people who know really well when they look at the card. They. They have a good idea. And so if they see there's a, like, a flaw in the grading, they'll crack it and resubmit because they feel confident about that. The problem with that is it shouldn't be on us to be the experts. It should be the people grading it that are the experts. Like, they should be the ones that are, like, able to properly grade this the first time. Yeah, I understand. I understand your point, but that's the. That's what. When. That's what you get when you have human graders, right? You have. There's such a fine line between a 9 and, like, a very strong 9 and a very weak 10. It's a very fine line. Right? So it's a difference between a grader that's in a bad mood and the greater. That's in a good mood. I'm just. You know why I'm bitter? Because I've. I'm on a string of PSA 9s lately. Oh, man. I can't buy a 10 these days, so I might need Roy's help, too. That's why you got to keep on. You have to, like, month, week after. You just keep. You just keep submitting. I don't have that. Chris. I don't have that Chris. Sale budget. Okay? Not on a max contract, unfortunately. But, yeah, it's always nice to have deeper pockets where you could take that risk. And even if you lose, you're like, yeah, whatever, I tried. I'll just buy the 10. Oh, man. I don't know how we got into that conversation, but I guess it all ties in with a lot more people coming into it, contributing to the backlog. I don't want to blame. Of course, I don't want to blame those guys, but that's just, you know, this word. One of the repercussions of a growing hobby. So I want to just bring that point up quickly. Okay, good discussion. And like Will teased, he's going to talk about something that's been on his mind in our next segment. It's called Just a Thought. All right. I love doing this segment with you guys because it's kind of fun. And I know we haven't done this in a while, but this is when we think of or suggest any new ideas for the hobby that we think might approve it. It could be wacky, could be out there. This is what the segment is for. And maybe we just disagree with any of the ideas that each of us come up with, but it's kind of like a workshopping session. All right, so. Yeah, go ahead, Will. I know you got one ready to go. Let's hear it. What's your just a thought, suggestion or idea? My just a thought. This is the way we fix grading. Okay? That's a big goal, right? So I'm gonna call. There's four pillars to grading, and I'm gonna call it the sexy grading. Okay? S, E, C, C. These are the things that we all know. Surfaces, edges, centering, and corners. That's how grading companies grade their cards. Based on those four criteria. Yeah, I think we need to revamp. What is a 10? What is a 9? It needs to be clearer understanding of what makes your card A10. What makes your card A9, what makes it an 8. So this is my suggestion. A10 is no visible damage of any kind. Like, when you hold that card, you or anyone else cannot see any damage. You don't see any creases, you don't see any white on, like, you know, the Pokemon cards on the edges, you don't see like a crease, like a bent corner. There's no visible damage to the naked eye. Then you have 10 plus. 10 plus. You put the card under magnification. You know, like, I watch a lot of Instagram videos of like these guys who fix up Pokemon cards and then resubmit them and, and whatever. And I'm always amazed because when they show you the. The zoomed in micro or the magnified view, you see it, you see a lot of damage and a lot of dirt that you never saw before. So I recognize that there's got to be something that's above a 10. The 10 plus is when you zoom in 2x or 3x magnification. There's no damage, there's no dirt, there's nothing on the surface, there's nothing on the edges. No corner issues, no centering issues. That's 10 plus. A nine is if you have. So like in BGS, you could have true gem, which is four nine fives. Right? But then what's a min gem? Three nine fives and one nine. Yeah. And then if you have two nine fives and two nines, your grade, your total grade drops to a nine. So in that same way, this a nine would be two points of damage to either of any of the four quadrants, subgrades, pillars, and then so on and so forth. You work your way down. And eight is four minor imperfections, or maybe it's one major imperfection like, like a crease or like a really dinged up corner, and then maybe a seven. Is like six points of damage, and you just keep going down all the way. It doesn't really matter because beyond the 8, 9, 10, nobody really cares. Especially if we're talking modern cards. I think there just needs to be better transparency and better understanding of what makes a card the grade that it is. Which leads me to my next Just a thought. I know I'm dominating the mic tonight. I love it. I asked Chachi PT what are the major gripes of hobbyists, like collectors in the hobby space with grading and ChatGPT said there's four major things. One is turnaround time. And you kind of touched on that. There's a 14 million card backlog. People are really frustrated with that. There's frustrations with consistency. So just like you were saying, we were saying, you know, you submit it four times, you get four separate different grades. Maybe the fourth time you get the. The nine or the ten that you're waiting for. People are frustrated that they have to do that. Then there's the whole issue of transparency, where it's like, why then? And I kind of talked about that a little earlier. And then the last thing that Chachi PT highlighted was price. People are really frustrated that they're paying such high prices and stuff like that. So very quickly I want to tackle each one. Turnaround time. How do we f. How do we fix that? How do we solve that problem? It's very obvious. You have to hire more people, you have to train them better, and you have to start using AI and technology in a better way. It boggles my mind that PSA has not already invested heavily into using AI because it's just helpful to their. To their business. Right. So I don't know if this is true or a rumor, but I heard PSA is starting to use AI for their centering only. Yeah, that's great because that's something that a ruler can figure out immediately, right? Like. Like any AI can just look at that and figure out the centering immediately. It takes no time whatsoever. And then. But if you think about it, it doesn't take them time. If you heard that there's an interview with like a XPSA person, they don't take a lot of time to grade these cards anyway. So which is. Which is a really big problem because if I. If I had a calculator calculating arithmetic, like I gave it 100 numbers, or I plug it into an Excel sheet, if it gives me the answer in half a second, I'm really happy because I know Excel or my calculator is doing the Job. It's supposed to do it. If I gave 100 numbers to Roy and he gave me an answer immediately, I'd be like, no, Roy, that's wrong. You did not. What do you mean? I'm just, I'm doing the abacus counting in my head. Right? So you let AI, you let computer, let technology solve, like go through those things and at the end you have a human grader who just oversees it or just like reviews the grade that AI spits out. Right. So there is still some human element to it. But why are you not letting technology do the bulk of the work to do that? And so if you do that, it should lower. I actually think it may take longer for the AI to do it. That's probably why they don't want to going. What do you mean? Well, then they need to pay for the subscription for Chat GPT and stop using the free chat. No, no. So this is just me thinking on the top of my head. I don't know how the process, how long each card takes, but for a grader, they take it out of the sleeve, they look at it, they look at the front, they look at the back, they make their grade. Right. But for AI, they have to take it out, they have to put it on the machine, the machine goes under. Like it, it takes time to retract and right into, back into the cameras. It's not like it's instant like the, once it's like in place, because there's probably a motor or something that you had to put the card in that exact spot and then they had to flip it over. So that whole process is probably taking longer than a graded. A grader grading a single card by, by their eye. In my, in my opinion, I don't think if I take a card and you can take a picture. Yeah, but ChatGPT, there's no physical aspect to Chat GPT, but in a, in grading there's a, there's a machine, right. You have to put it on the conveyor belt or whatever. In the exact spot. Yeah. The conveyor belt then has to go back into the system. That probably takes time because if it's too fast, it might lose, make the card loose or whatever. So it goes back into the machine and the machine does its work, comes back out, takes time. The grader then has to flip, the card, goes back in. And I think the whole process probably takes longer per card for the grader. I feel like Roy is using very old technology. No, there's videos of like the people doing the tag grading you could see like how fast that machine goes in and out, but at the same time, like Those machines work 24 hours a day. No, they don't. Because the, a person has to put the card on the thing. Yeah. So you work in three, eight hour shifts. Yeah. So what's, what's, what's saying that they're not doing that right now with psa? I, I don't know, but I could guess because they have a 14 million card backlog. You can assume, but I mean, let's just. Oh, sorry. You're good. No, I don't understand why it's got to be that slow. I don't, I don't, I'm not buying it still. Because you, you just have one guy just pile it up and then. No, but it doesn't work like that. It's not like, because if you're stacking cards in like a system where it automatically eject, there's like the car can get damaged. Whether the machine malfunctions or whether you know, the, the rollers impress on the card. There's, there has to be some type of. But you could put the card in some sort of encasement and then, and then the machine would move that encased card. No, but then so much scanning. So imagine you had a hundred fifty thousand dollar card, right. Like a Mickey Mantle. And that automatic process of taking it out of the encasement malfunctions because it's a machine and it damages your card. Are you ever going to grade with them again? Nobody's saying is you encase it so that it's protected. But the digital scans or whatever machines they're using to take the high res images of it, it's, it can take it through that penny. Like let's just say it's a penny sleeve or whatever. No, but it can't because then there's flaws on the sleeve. There might be a little dust particle use AI to just get rid of that, like see through it. You could, you could say like this is the card material, this is sleeve material. Right. AI can figure that out. No, I don't. There's so many. Maybe in like, not now. There's no way. The card has to be on its, its raw edge or surface for the, these computers to see what's wrong. Sure. Even if that was the case for now, I feel like the amount of time it takes the human grader to take the card out, physically hold the card, look at the card, examine the card, is the same as the grader taking the card out. Placing it very carefully on whatever surface and then bunch of cameras who never. Exactly what happens. Bunch of cameras that never touch the card, examine it, take pictures, high res scans, you know, they look at the bumpiness of the edge of the surface and all that kind of stuff. Yeah, so the actual, the, the, the, the lights and the photo taking and the processing. Yeah, that's, that's really quick. But it's, it's, it's the, it's the process prior to that that takes long. But I think Will's point is you're doing that anyways. Yeah. So you save the time and the actual grading process with the lights and cameras. Yeah, I mean. Okay, I don't think you guys are understanding my point because there, there it take, I think it takes a card to grade with AI longer than you think. And yeah, eventually hopefully we could get to the point where you just, you just stack thousand cards and it'll just automatically do it. But currently that's not how it's being done. Not a tag at least. Yeah, maybe we need to do some more research and see the tag video that you're referencing. Let's get an inside tour of TAG first and then. So we'll hold off on that part for now. Okay. So the second thing, the second frustration is consistency. Right. So if you use AI and tech a little bit better, I mean one of the things that people really appreciate about TAG is that it, it should be and it usually is a more consistent grade. And I think one of the ways that you can also train your employees or the graders a little bit better is you have digital scans, you have baselines or, or maybe the AI is using baselines where you are setting boundaries of what is a gem, mint card, what is a nine, all that kind of stuff. So then you have more consistency. But one of the things with digital imaging and stuff like that which should be available for, which is available because PSA does it for their higher tiers and I think TAG or who, who's the company that gives you full high res images? PSA does too. PSA and tag, like one of the, like, I think it's tag, right? Like for every card. PSA does it now too. For every card, Anything. Yeah, they do high, high rise scans. Yeah. So then with those high res, you get the high res scan and then you get a grading report. Which leads me to my next thing. Transparency that people are frustrated about. I really appreciated hearing that they were creating this backlog tracker because one of the most frustrating things when you go to the DMV or you go to the hospital is you're just sitting in the waiting room and you never know when your name's going to be called next or when you're on, on hold with Rogers or Bell or Verizon or AT&T, whatever. You don't know when they're going to answer your or when they're going to get you next. When you go to the waiting room and you see that Your number is 49 and there are Costco, you know, like, you're like, I really want my hot dog and pop and I'm number 98 and they're at number 30. You know that you have to wait. So I appreciate, like, it's still frustrating, but I appreciate that. I know where I am in the queue. Yeah. So I do like that they've been doing that to increase transparency, but I think the most transparent thing that people want is grading reports. And I honestly don't know how they don't have grading reports for all cards. Yeah, it might take some extra time, but that's the stuff that us collectors are happy to have to wait an extra day, extra week if you're going to give me full grading reports. Or at least the AI spits out a grading report. So you know exactly what the damage is. And then you also know how to argue it. Right. Like, you could say it's already there. If you want the grading report, you got to pay for it. And if not, then if you expect that for every single card, the backlog of 14 million would be like 100 million because they have to take all that extra time to put in those grading reports. AI well, like I said, I think, I think AI should be able to do that pretty easily. I've been told from a lot of teaching friends of mine, teachers, that AI has transformed their lives because every end of year they have to write 35 report cards. And I have teacher friends that tell me it takes them five minutes to give all the report cards because they just, they just input all the data for all their students. And AI just very nicely, very professionally just writes a report and explains, like, what you're, what your students, why your students, grades are what they are, what they need to improve, all that kind of stuff. So I think there needs to be a better level of transparency. And then finally, the last frustration is price. And I think a lot of people are upset with the price increases that have happened. But honestly, I think that price probably should increase, but it should be. Price increase should be a reflection of quality of service. And that's what PSA is. They are a service industry. And so if they're saying, like, hey, we have to increase the price because we are implementing these quality assurance thing pillars, right? Or like these, these different methods and these different things that are going to improve the grading system, it's like, okay, increase the price because your service is getting better, but right now we're paying more. Not because we're getting better service, we're paying more. And especially when you get upcharged, you're actually paying more as a tax, right? Like if you said, oh, the bulk of the price increase, like if you want to go from this tier, like bulk, like value tier to express tier, is because we will turn it around for you within a week, it's like, okay, that's fine. Like, even in my industry, you know, I've got installations set up three weeks in advance. And if you want to jump that line, if you want me to get your stuff done in two, three days, if it's possible, I can do it, but I have to charge you because I got to bump everyone else back. If that's why the price increases. The price increase. I understand if the price increases because, oh, the value of your card is so much higher than what we expected and insurance costs a little bit more. Okay? But let me tell you, I go to Mexico with my family and I get travelers insurance, and I pay $25 a day on. On the high end for that trip. And if I die, my kids and my wife, they get million dollars. They don't have to worry about my burial. They don't have to worry about transporting my body, the cemetery, everything's paid for because I got travelers insurance. Why am I paying more for Victor Wembanyama Kaboom PSA10 insurance, you know, because it graded a PSA10 and now it's like, really valuable. It's like, there's no card that is more valuable than human life, Right? So why. That's the one thing. That's the one thing I had a question about. Because, like, when you get upcharged, I'm usually happy because I know I'm getting my value, but I got upcharged at Expo. So what insurance am I paying if I'm just picking up the card from them, just grading it? That. That. That made no sense to me. I was like, huh? And so the most frustrating thing is, I think a lot of people were upset with Jeff Wilson because when he was defending and he was like, oh, I love getting up charges, and we as a community should love getting up charges. And stuff like that. It's like, no, you're not increasing the value. You actually like PSA because you gave it a 10. You didn't improve the sexiness of the card. You didn't improve surface or edges or centering or. Or corners. What you did is you. You encapsulated it. And then so people be like, oh, but it increases the monetary value of the card or whatever. It's like. But if you're willing to pay for that, you're actually just paying a tax on, like. Like. Like, for example, when I was buying and selling my home, I had to have a home appraiser come. Now, if that home appraiser comes to my house, and after appraising it, he. He pulls me aside, goes, hey, Will, I can. I can write a much higher number for the appraisal for you, but I want you to give me a cut of the extra money you're gonna make. You know what I'm gonna say? I'm gonna say, yes, of course. Let's do it. I want to make a lot of money. But you know what that is? That's illegal. That's a conflict of interest. That home appraiser is not allowed to do that, and I am not allowed to do that. It's an illegal thing to do. And that's the problem with psa. It's too much of a conflict of interest. It's too shady. It's not transparent, and it's very dangerous that they should dictate how much increase in value there is, and then they get to get a cut of it. It's. It's really weird. It's. It's super dangerous. I agree with that. Yeah. I never understood upcharges, but, yeah, you know, and, like, it's like we're getting tricked into thinking that we should be happy with it. It's like, you go to the casino, and if you win, you win. At blackjack, you might tip the dealer five bucks, you know, but that dealer didn't really do anything. Like, he or she is not really impacting your cards. Your cards are your cards, and your decision making is your decision making. So you're tipping the dealer not because he or she performed a service that increased value, but if suddenly the casino's like, hey, if you win 1,000 bucks, we get to take a hundred bucks of it, the casinos would go bankrupt, because people will be up in arms. Every industry, people are like, this doesn't make sense. But in card grading, we're like, yeah, give me up charges. I love it. They don't deserve that money. They haven't done anything to deserve extra money. And actually getting extra money, I would argue, is a conflict of interest and it's borderline illegal. Oh, wait, wait. I have one final thing. Okay, okay. So to end this all, to wrap this all up in a nice bow, I'm honestly just waiting for fanatics to take over a grading company or launch their own grading company. I fully believe it's happening. I think they've been sitting back and watching what's been going on in this dumpster fire that is PSA and BGS and sgc, and they're just biding their time for when they take over. We've entered into the age of empires and the emperor who has been on the throne needs to be taken over, albeit by a new emperor. And this I quote, that would be even a bigger conflict of interest if the card manufacturer can become their own grader, right? But to quote. To quote the. The incredible Kent Brockman, esteemed news Reporter from Channel 6 News from the Simpsons, he said this. The Corvair spacecraft has apparently been taken over, conquered, if you will, by a master race of giant space ants. It's difficult to tell from this vantage point whether they will consume the captive Earthmen or merely enslave them. One thing is for certain, there is no stopping them. The ants will soon be here. And I, for one, welcome our new insect overlords. So, fanatics, I welcome you, we at Cards to the Moon. We welcome you, and we are eager for your arrival. The end. Wow, that was amazing. Well, that's why our podcast is two hours. Like, oh, this is going to be a shorty today. And then it's like, just a thought, just an essay. Wow, that's great. I loved every second of it. And Roy, I know you've interjected here and there, but any further rebuttals? Because when we, when we initially had this idea to do it on this pod, we're kind of going back and forth on our WhatsApp chat, but any holes you can find or any rebuttals that you have for Will, I mean, well, to the last one, like I said, like, that would be the biggest conflict of interest if a car to manufacturer can be a grader. They would just carefully manufacture cards that are going to be all perfect and then sell them on the market without anybody knowing and then just double dip on. On their profits. It's business, shady business, illegal business. But yeah, I don't know, like as much as I, you know, like psa, like it's because you know what you're getting. For the most part. Yes, they make errors. Yes, there are cards that are PSA 10s that should not be. But if you look at every single PSA 10 out I, 90% are probably very accurate in terms of psych PSA 10, which is like, it's not the best odds you want. You would want it closer to 95 to 100%, which hopefully in the future, AI could kind of help. But for the most part, you know What a. A PSA 10 is, and that's why there's so much value in a 10. Like a CGC 10. People like, oh, it's a 10. It's like, no, that's not a 10. That would be like an 8 to a 9 in a PSA. Pristine's a little different. And yeah, back to his original point, which was, you're just diluting a PSA 10. Or like, you want a 10 to be something that your eyeballs can see. Like, whose eyeballs? Right. Just because you cannot, you can't see it doesn't mean I can't see a flaw. Right. Someone with 2020 vision. So, Roy, you have 2020 vision. So, yeah, if you don't see damage, then none of us will see damage. But that's why I do see damage, and that's why I only submit the ones that I think that don't have the damage. And that's why my gem rate is probably when I submit, like, 75 to 80%. Yeah, but you'll never have that situation where you're like, whoa, why Is this a 7? You'll never get that. Because if you understand the parameters and you have 2020 vision, you have good eyes and you have the experience, then like we were talking about earlier, about people who are able to kind of game the system by looking at the cards and really understanding how it works. That should be available to everyone to be able to do, to be able to understand consistently, oh, I see why this is not going to get a 10. But, you know, a lot of times you're sending cards in, you're like, could be a nine, could be a 10. I hope it's a 10. Yeah. So I'm taking the risk. I'm willing to take that risk and potentially get a 10, because it could. But I just feel like. But your grading system of a 10 is exactly what CGC is. You're saying, okay, naked eye, I can't see it. So I want a 10. If. If you. If I want to get your 10 plus, that's what? Pristine 10 is on a CGC, so if you want those tens, you should submit to cgc, not psa, because why would you want to dilute a card that's a 10? You would. You want a 10 to hold a certain standard of quality, right? Yeah, I'm just saying. But. But. But you're saying, oh, I'm okay with getting a 10 because I can't see with my naked eye. But that's. The card isn't a 10, then in the current system, it would be. But why would you want to dilute a card? You want a 10 to be the best quality possible. Right. That's why it's considered a 10 or 10 plus or whatever it may be. You don't want to dilute that product and have your tens actually be eight and a half. Eights, nines. Okay, how about. How about if you just call it a nine, Then let's just, like, readjust the grading system naked. Exactly what Pierce is, though. That's what they're offering. Is it, though? Is it, though? I look at my Yamamoto home field advantage, that got a PSA9. I don't know. That looks like a 10 to me. I'll take a look at it. So I think all those things kind of have to work together, right? Because, like. Like, we're saying, like, yeah, you're not wrong. Like, none of us are experts. But I think if there's, like, a little bit better understanding of what the rules are, but also if afterwards the grader who is the expert has a little report, it's like, oh, okay, they saw this damage that I didn't see. It would just take so much longer. Imagine writing a report after every card you grade. I know, but I would argue that that's how the system always should have been. An AI would make it quick, that's all. Yeah, yeah. Not for Roy. He doesn't believe it. No, I do. I do. It's just. It's just there's a reason PSA holds, you know, has a. Has a premium. It's not because they do up charges. It's not because of this and that. It's because, you know, for the most part, like, with utmost confidence of why it's a 10. Yes. There's the odd case where you're like, how did that get a 10? Some of them are mislabeled. Some of them just kind of pass by, whether it was dim lighting or whatever, but for the most part, you know what a 10 is. But that's why. That's the problem, though. Like, PSA wasn't the premier grading company even 10 years ago. Right. You would argue it was BGS. So it's not that I have a problem with PSA's grading. I have a problem that, or like part of the problem, the biggest problem is that we've all drank the Kool Aid and decided, oh, we are all going to value this PSA because simply because it's psa. But PSA doesn't have better graders than BGS did. And it definitely didn't have better graders than SGC did. Right? Sgc. Their whole thing was like, we are the premier vintage graders. Like, nobody grades as well as we do or as, as critically or as accurately as we do. So all these grading companies, like, if you're saying like, okay, what's that color one hga. Yeah. If you're like, oh, HGA doesn't hold the value of bgs, psa, sgc, it's like, okay, I understand why. Because they don't have that track record or that history of being a good grading company. So it's like, okay, you can devalue their cards if it's in that holder. But bgs, psa, sgc, in terms of grading, grading ability, or like objectivity, I would argue that they're all equally good. So I just, yeah, that's a whole big thing with psa. Yeah, no, like, I'm not, I'm not totally opposer to what you're saying. I, I, I agree there's, there's definitely flaws with PSA and sometimes it's, and a lot of it is marketing. But yes. Yeah, it's all our fault at the end of the day. What are you gonna do? We can't do anything as individuals. We can't even rally and say no sub may or whatever it was. It doesn't happen. More subs, they're like, like, oh yeah, no submay. Let me show you. We're gonna close service and you're gonna, you're gonna send the most cards we've ever received. True. No. I love the rant of the insight and the thought you put into this new grading system that you came up with. If you ever need capital funding, I don't have it, but if you ever get one, if you ever get it, I will be the first to grade with you on a grade with you because I want to be number 00001. Just waiting for be the one and only card graded. You know what? Fanatics can hire me. Will for hire fanatics. You hear that? I will add one More thing before we move on. I'm not even gonna go with my justice. I'll save it for the our next episode that we have together. But I do agree that there should be a greater transparency in why the grade is what the grade is ultimately. And I know you mentioned Roy, they do have it at the more premiere or at the express level, which I did get at. I think I was at Fanatics Fest or at the Expo when I dropped off my Bobby Witt super for the end of show grading. And I did express and I got notes back and all the notes said was white on corner. I'm like, what? That was three words. That's what I'm paying the express service for. And I look at it, I'm like, which corner? First of all, because I don't see any, you know, whitening that was so evident that it got a PSA 8 ultimately. But anyway, little more than three words, huh? AI can. Hey, that's what AI can do. Write a paragraph. I know, I do. I do really like tag. Not only for their nicer looking slabs, but because you get the full, in depth. The report. Yeah, report. But that has its flaws too. But I won't. I won't go with that tag. You. You had your chance. You had your chance to get us. Seriously, get us to all fall in love with you. I don't know what you're doing. PSA shut down. Well, we're shutting down too. PSA raised prices. We're raising prices. That's another episode altogether. All right, let's finish this episode with a regular weekly segment we call Pick One. All right, I know, Will, you just talked a whole bunch, but do you want to start things off with your Pick one for us? Sure. I. Because I was so passionate about preparing my notes for this rant, I completely forgot to send you guys my Pick one. But my Pick one is actually just a return to kind of my first love. Today I'm wearing my baseball shirt. I'm wearing my baseball cap. You know, we talk a lot about WWE and a lot about Pokemon when the three of us are together, but I want to go back to the roots of this podcast and the roots of my first love. So we're going to talk about baseball. So 20. There's two players who have very similar stats, and I'm going to share them with you right now. One is Aaron Judge and the other is Mike Trout. So they're both about the same age. I think Mike Trout's a half year older. Mike Trout has 90 WAR, whereas Aaron Judge has 64. They have the same batting average.291 and OPS for Aaron Judge of 1.022 and for Mike Trout.972. Which is like, it's ridiculous. I think Jordan Alvarez is the only other active player who has a higher OPS than Mike Trout. Other than that, it's. It's Mike Trout and it's Aaron Judge. Judge has 385 home runs and Trout has.421. But Trout started playing at a very young age, so he's got a lot more games played. Judge is a seven time All Star. Trout is 11 time. They're both three time MVPs. Judges had a batting title and five Silver Sluggers. Mike Trout has had nine Silver Sluggers. The most important stat for both players is neither has won a championship. Which is probably the biggest knock on both of their careers and potentially what will limit them from ever being viewed as the greatest players of all time. But outside of Championships 1, their stats are just at the top of the field in terms of ops like they are and war. They're, they're near the tops. So what I've got is the 2017 TOPS. Aaron Judge Gold PSA 10 versus the 2011 team. Topps update gold Mike Trout. So it's what I say 2011. I said 2011. It's late at night. I'm drunk on. Drunk on all my grading power. 2011 Mike Trout versus the 2017 Aaron Judge. Both are gold, both are PSA tens. Both have a pop of about 50. The judge has 48. Trout has 53. But the big difference is the Trout last sold in August of last year for $4,000 Canadian. And the Mike Trout sold in May for 9,500. So the price is different on it. But if you were to invest in one of those cards, which one would you invest in for the future? Trout's not, not rookie card. Right. It's his rookie card. I'm sorry. Oh, I mean Judge both rookie cards, both gold out of whatever year it is. So 2017 and out of 2011. It's not Chrome. It's obviously not chrome. It's both the papers. So they're like the exact comp to each other. Comparison. Comparison to each other. Yeah. Is that. I mean, for me, I'd probably go Judge. I always thought Trout's game was kind of boring. Yes, he, he, he gets the wins. He gets all that. But you know, chicks dig the long ball. Right. Judge can smash more than Trout can. Right. And he's on a better team like he's on a team that's actually desired like the Yankees. It's a historic franchise where Trout is on the Angels. And that's probably why I would go Judge. And he, and he's playing a lot better in recency where Trout kind of has that like negative stigma of like, oh, can he, can he play a full year? Is he going to get hurt again? You know, when he's healthy he plays well, but he's never healthy. So he kind of has that going for him as well. So I'll go judge. It's funny because Judge is starting to get that said about he's hurt for a couple months. Yeah, he's out for a couple months at least. And Trout's knock on wood, healthy hit his 17th homer yesterday. It was a bomb. Did you see that? I can't, I can't quit Mike Trout. That's, it's, it's a personal bias. You guys know this. Anyone that listened to this podcast over the last five, six years knows I can't quit Trout. Although, you know, I'm starting to give my respect to Aaron Judge a lot more. More and more so on the pod. But if you're gonna put Trout versus Judge, this was the year I was waiting for, you know, from Trout. And it's reflecting the, the value of some of his, you know, more high end rookie cards. It's gotten nice boost and if he just, you know, please get traded, please get traded to contender. That's all I'm hoping, hey, if Luca could get traded to the Lakers, Charl can get traded to somewhere unexpected. So that's what I'm really hoping for and banking on because we know the Angels aren't going to win anytime soon. But all those things, yeah, for all those reasons, I'm, I'm sticking with Trout. Great. Yeah. One of the crazy things is Trout has always been recognized as the goat, right, like, or as one of the goats. And especially in modern, modern baseball. But like Roy saying he's like, he's like the quietest 40 home run hitter of all time. Like he always gets really great stats, he plays a premier defensive position. But he, I mean, does he have any playoff games? Like have the Angels made the playoffs with him? He's got one postseason. One postseason with when Pujols was on the team, like pre. I think it's pre Shohei, right? Yeah, for sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's just like, like Roy saying the Angels are just, I don't know what's going on with that organization, that team, and he's never gonna escape them. And I just feel like the stink is on Mike Trout. Like it's not ever gonna go off him. So much so that I am picking Aaron Judge, who is a divisional rival. And I never. How dare you. I don't like his swing. I don't like the way he looks. Oh, that's going, I have to say, personality, like, he seems to be a really genuine and good and humble person. So I do appreciate that about him. But just the fact that he's a Yankee, like, I can't believe that I'm gonna pick the Aaron Judge just because I think long term it holds better investment value. Because I think as history continues, people will forget Mike Trout and God forbid the Yankees actually. Goodness, they will. They won't forget him. No. It'll be like, it'll be like how everyone's like, oh, LeBron, LeBron. Because the stats are there. Everyone's going to look at Judge as like, like the goat. Cuz he hit 60 bombs and he hit, you know, 70 bombs. And they're going to remember those stats. They're not going to remember top five Yankee, right? Ever. It'd be like top five Yankee ever. Yeah. And if he ever wins one, it's like Jalen Brunson. It's like Aaron Judge wins one, he'll be forever cemented. Statue. Yeah. Yes. So that's why I'm picking Aaron Judge. Because I think, wow. I think he's got a better chance to hit more home runs in his career. And it hurts me to say there's a chance that they could win a championship. They're definitely closer than the Angels, that's for sure. All right, good one, Roy. You got one for us? Yeah. So with the World cup going on right now, there is a Pokemon card that has Pikachu wearing a Team Japan Jersey. It's a 2014 team Japan Pikachu. I think it's like sponsored by Adidas or has like Adidas collaboration in a PSA 10. It sold on June 7th for 7.2k US. Wow. With a pop of 808. So that's about 10k Canadian. And then we have Lionel Messi. One of the goats, if not the goat with a hat trick yesterday. I think so. So it's his Donrus kaboom, I think 2025, 2026. So that sold yesterday for 8.1k USD. So just a little bit over the Pikachu. But but also to compare, I think a BGS 9.5 sold last week for about the same price. As this raw. So which one would you rather have? This Adidas Pikachu PSA 10 or this messy kaboom? And he also, he's wearing his Argentina outfit, his uniform, rather than his club team. So we don't. Oh, it's not graded right. It's wrong. Yeah, this one was raw. I mean, we could go back and just say, do you want the BGS 9.5, which was a min gem that sold last week on the 11th. So 9.5. 9.5, 9.5 with surface of a 9. So for me, Roy, I gotta say, this is my favorite pick one you've ever. I actually, I think it's just so, like, it's so relevant to what we're, what we're experiencing right now where we all have World cup fever and it's just off the back of Messi's hat trick to take the lead and goals in the World Cup. Like, Messi is the goat and that's a beautiful card in his Argentina jersey. But this Pikachu, like, it's also Team Japan, which is, you know, the rival of Team Korea. So I should hate it and I should look down. They should lose points. But I'm looking at this card and it is so cute. It is so be such a beautiful card. And I'm just sad that they didn't come up with like, each country having their own Pikachu in their jersey. I think that would have been such a great, such a cool collab if they did like Pikachu in a Korea jersey or maybe a different Pokemon who's in a, in a Korea jersey. And then Italy gets a different Pokemon and all that kind of stuff. But for me, I love this Pikachu. I, I think it's, I think it's such a great looking card. So I picked that one. Wow. And a lot of wows for Will today. Wow. The. The grading went. We're out. Wow. Aaron Judge, Pikachu. Oh, man. Yeah, I like this one too. I'm kind of going back and forth while you're talking. Well, like, which one do I like better? Which one would I, you know, not mind having on my shelf for 8k? I feel like with Messi, there's other kabooms that he has, right? Yeah. But it's probably the only one in his Argentina jersey. I feel like national kits are way more. Or international kits are just way cooler than club jerseys. Is that true, though? I feel like I've seen. Well, now we're all gonna have to research. No, he has another kaboom I think in Argentina. Yes, he does have another one. 22, 23 season. He's wearing his Argentina uniform. So there's that. Oh, yeah, right. Yeah. So there's another one with him in the Argentina uniform. And I know he has it on other uniforms. I can't believe this. I'm saying that I'm gonna go for the Pikachu for that reason. For that reason alone, I mean. Oh, wait. Does Pikachu have other soccer cards? He does, but not in any kits. So there's a first print, a second print, but he's not wearing any jersey. Oh, okay. And then there's like, a. There's a footsall on the ball, so I actually have it on my desk right now. So this one here, which is. That's cute, too. Kind of not as nice. I think he's wearing an England shirt. So I think he has four soccer cards. But the other two, he's not wearing any jersey at all, but. Oh, now it's tough. Now it's tough. What year was that? The Pikachu 2014. Okay, I'll go with the Pikachu. I'll go with the older card because the. The one you showed us is 2526. Yeah. Yeah. I feel like that value might stag. Stagnate just because it's a newer card or grow more slowly, whereas the Pikachu 2014. Spin around a while. Yeah. Pikachu 2 for Pikachu. This is the Pikachu sweep. Or it's Roy. It is for the same reason, because he has multiple kaboons. I wasn't even thinking of the Argentina jersey. Just he has so many kabooms that. And this was like the newest one of 2025, 2026. That it's. It's not rare. Well, it is, but, you know, he has so many other variants that I would go for the. The Pikachu as well. Good. Pikachu. Sweet. All right, we'll finish off with mine. I'd like to say, for the record, I thought I might pick one first. So now it makes it look like I'm stealing Roy's World cup idea. Okay. Because mine is. Lionel Messi is rookie 71 bis. His most. Arguably his most famous rookie card. I believe I gave you the BGS8 version that sold for just under. Yeah, 14K. Okay. And then is that US or Canadian? This is us. And the other one is Cristiano Ronaldo, who other others consider might be the goat. His 2002 Panini rookie card. This one's in a BGS 8.5. So half a grade higher. So for just over 14k. So let's say 14k even. Which one would you rather have, Ronaldo or Messi? I feel like I know what you guys are gonna say already. Can I ask a question? Are they both like paper? They're both like. It's not like one of them's both paper. Yes. So the mega cracks designation is not like a. Like a parallel or variation or anything? Not in those years. I. Yeah, for sure. Messi or Ronaldo? 8 versus 8.5 bgs. I'm gonna go. Messi, he's. His game is just. I don't know. I. He's like a wizard out there. He has almost as many goals. Obviously, Ronaldo has more goals, but Ronaldo's like a striker. Right? And Messi's more like a midfield. For. For him to have that many goals as a mid versus a striker is also a feat. That's kind of crazy, but I don't know, just watching him, it's just mesmerizing what he can do with the ball, how he looks out there, how he could just sway defenders and goaltenders. It's. And like you, you know that other people agree because look at the 8.5 that sold for Messi. It sold for more than Christian cristiano's or ronaldo's 8.5. Yeah. His 8 versus ronaldo's 8 point 5. Yeah. No, no. Messi's 8.5 versus ronaldo's 8 point five. Oh, I see. Okay. Yeah. Right, Right. So the value is already there. People also agree and. Yeah. And he's won. He's won a World cup and he might win another one this year, so. Whereas Portugal. I don't know. Yeah, Good reasons. My son's gonna hate me because he loves never to listen to this episode. Funny enough, he just. He started listening to. On our car drives to soccer, he's like, can we play cards to the moon? I'm like, trying to find episodes without me, but then I clicked one with you. That's awesome. So, you know, there's a lot of debate in the football world about who's the goat. And it's very passionate fan bases on both sides. I. I think. And hopefully I'm not going to upset anyone. I think Messi is clearly the better player. I think, like Roy's saying, like, the way he controls the ball, the way he controls the game, the things that he's able to do is just like, it is mesmerizing and it's really commendable and normally I'm a big fan of like the, the team over the individual and I feel like Messi embodies that through and through. It's always about the team for him. And there's, you know, there's always been a little thing about Ronaldo being a little bit selfish. Like even this World cup, they're like he's a little too old. Should he be, should he have even been on the team and all this kind of stuff. But I love Ronaldo. Oh, I, I love Ronaldo more than Messi. I, I even love him off the field like just for like, like, yeah, his non sports related stuff. I love him more than Messi. I, yeah, I don't know if it's because I, I really, I grew up with a lot of Portuguese people as well, so I'm a little bit biased towards their team, but I grew up just loving Ronaldo. He was on Man United. I loved Man United growing up. I would watch Saturday morning soccer every Saturday morning and really watch Man United. Didn't know that about you. Yeah. So, and Ronaldo was just like, like he wasn't a wizard like Messi is, but he would score goals like, like the most beautiful, the, the most difficult, the most acrobatic and artistic goals. So yeah, for me it's easy. It's not even close. It's Ronaldo. Because I would love to have that card and display it forever. And don't get me wrong, I, I'm not a Ronaldo hater. I love Ronaldo as well. So don't become coming at me. I don't hate Messi. I, I watched yesterday's game, our match, and I was just like, wow. Even my wife was watching with me. She's like, is he really this amazing? And I'm like, yeah, he's, he's the goat, all right. Roy doesn't tate Ronaldo. So Miles, don't worry, you're dead. He had to put in that disclaimer and one word for Will's choice. That was a quite a plot twist. But wow. One more wow. I'm going the other way. I, I, for the same reason, in the opposite direction as you Will. I was always a Messi fan. I don't know, maybe it's because he was a shorter guy. I'm like, you know what? He can relate to me. You know, I can relate to him. You know, and he could do a lot of things where he grew up with, I'm sure a lot of naysayers, a lot of people who didn't believe he could do what he is doing right now. So I just like his story a lot more. So I've always grown up enjoying watching Messi play. And I think when it comes to championships or World cup wins, you know, that says a lot too. For me at least. I know there's a huge debate. I'm listening to a lot of sports radio now and they're talking about who the best NBA basketball players are of all time. And Jalen Brunson catapulted up there because, you know, he brought the Knicks to championship, you know, and, and then, you know, there's talks of like James Harden and all these other guys who've been in the league for so long and that's a knock on their, you know, resume. And, and it definitely pushes a lot of people's, you know, rankings, his rankings down. So kind of the same reason Ronaldo until and it kind of ties in with what you said with Aaron Judge and Mike Trout. They just don't get there. There's going to be some kind of asterix. And so for that reason, I'm sticking with Messi, the greatest of all time. But you know what? I love Ronaldo too. Okay, so everyone there, all my, all our Carson and Moon Portuguese fans, we love you guys and rooting for your team as well. But yeah, wow, another hour and a half episode with you guys. It's, it's, it's always a long, fun episode. But you know, appreciate you guys being on the show as always and appreciate all the fans and listeners to the pod. We'll have a brand new episode for you guys next week. Talk to you then. Bye. Go Korea. Go Canada. Hey, thanks for listening to Cards to the Moon. We'd really appreciate you subscribing to our podcast, wherever you listen to your podcast. And you can also connect with us, each of us on Instagram @5Card Guys. Or you can follow Hyung at Integrity Sportscards or John at TradeYou at recess. You can also check us out@fivecardguys.com thanks again and hope to connect soon.