PSA Scandal Really Going To Make A Difference To Their Bottom Line?; Is The Next $1M Shohei Ohtani Card Worth It?

You're listening to Cards to the Moon, a podcast about trading cards from both a collector and investor perspective. We hope you'll stick around for the ride as we take a deep dive into the state of the hobby, share some hot takes, hopefully some useful advice and fun stories along the way. Hey guys, welcome back to Cards to the Moon. This is episode 335, and my name is Clark from 5cardguys.com. You can also find me on Instagram and on YouTube and on Facebook at 5cardguys, all one word. Coasting with me today as usual is Hyung, and you can find him at Cho Hyung on Instagram and also on YouTube, and John's away for this week, but yeah, he had to be called into a last minute meeting, but we'll have him on soon. Off the top today, I think we got to talk about the Shohei Otani 2025 Tops MVP Award Gold MLB Logo Man Patch Auto 1 of 1 card, which as of this recording, with a week to go before the auction ends on Fanatics Collect, the bid sits at $1.05 million. It's insane. The Gold Logo Man card is, if you don't know where it's from, it's from previous year's award winners that we covered on the pod before, but I think when we talked about it, we generally liked the idea of having these award winners wearing the Gold Logo Man patch on their uniform during this past season, and like the Rookie Debut Patch cards, what the Fanatics Collect is doing is they take the Logo Man patches off the uniform and then insert them into these 1 of 1 patch autograph cards. So my question is, do you like it? I think we both like it, but do you like it enough, Hyung, to spend over a million dollars on it if you had the money? Man, I think realistically, a million dollars is very excessive. That's the problem with these massive, massive auctions, is it goes back to what I was telling you before. It's like, who are buying these pieces? Is it institutions where it's setting the new standards and comps of this whole marketplace? And that's where, I guess, my logical side, or maybe it's not logical, but you have questions where it's like, man, is it worth it? I don't think it's worth it. It's more of a, I guess, inflated value based on the dynamics of the system itself rather than the value of the asset, right? And I don't know if people think that deeply into collecting cards, but for me, that would be the main concern for me. Is it really a million dollar card? Some might say yes, because the historic season, and I see the value there, and you went back to, I think, one, Topps did a great job to make sure it was game used, because that's even hard to kind of manufacture. You got to convince or have that relationship where it's like, hey, by the way, Ohtani, you got to wear this gold patch that we're going to put into this card. So I see that they've done what they could do to assume that value. So I think the historic season with the hype of fanatics, the growth of the hobby, the amount of eyes on baseball itself, you're at peak, peak, peak pricing, right? So for me, yeah, it's excessive. It's very excessive, but I'm not surprised. Yeah, that's certainly true. But yeah, I agree with you. I don't know if it, I'll make the counterargument for anyone that wants or has a million dollars to spend on this card and is thinking about bidding on it in the next few days. You already mentioned one. It is from the, I believe it was from the historic 50-50 season, right? Because it was from the previous year. It's the first year that they're doing this gold Logo Man patch card, right? It hasn't been done before. And obviously it's a one of one. So those three are the main considerations. But next year, you also have another gold Logo Man patch from Otani who won it again, right? So obviously we're expecting the prices for those gold Logo Man cards for next year set to, that I would be surprised if it reaches a million bucks, do you know what I mean? Because it's not the first one and it's, it was from obviously an awesome season for Otani, but it wasn't that historic 50-50. So I don't know. I guess I could see it being a million, but I wouldn't personally. How many Logo Mans are there? Like that's the, that would be the question too. It's like, okay, I like the whole idea of the MVP and Rookie of the Year because you only have one of that for that year, but I just don't want, oh, in this product now in Dynasty or a different product, there's another one of one Logo Man, or maybe it's not gold Logo Man. Maybe it's just a Logo Man. And then another set comes out with a one of one Logo Man again. It's just like, that's where I'm afraid because if you look at, I think that's kind of like maybe Panini, you know, they ran a little too many. The Logo Man, especially with basketball. With basketball. Like, I don't know, maybe they could really hurt themselves if they mass produce these Logo Mans. I hope that they keep it like, this is a true one of one. It's every year, but at least it's tied back to a memorable season, right? Where it's that MVP. There's only one because, you know, that's the MVP gold Logo Man. That's what it's known for. It's only one produced. And I think if that's the case, a million dollars, like 10 years from now can be justifiable, right? Yeah, true. And it's Otani too, right? Like, you know, Otani is legit. And I make this point because it's, you know, Lewis Gill is going to have one for his rookie of the year. And is he going to have, like, he might have a productive season, but is he going to reach that bar again? It's really hard to repeat for a lot of players, you know, to have a historic rookie year season like that. So I don't know. Otani is different, I guess. Definitely. I mean, Otani is definitely the driving factor in pricing right now. Sure. Like, I don't even think like a judge would go for that much, right? I think Otani is kind of like on its own level. But overall, I still think, you know, is it worth it? Like I said, is Lewis Gill, what's that going to fetch, right? And it's the same thing as like debut patches is like, that's cool. I love the concept. And the value is there for these really, really high desired rookies. But then what about the remaining, I guess, debut patches, right? Like you see them on eBay for a couple thousand bucks, which, you know, they still have value because, you know, people still, I guess, are chasing the debut patches and they're a new thing and they're only one available. But, you know, realistically, you're right. Like I think, you know, you look at the debut patches, how many are selling for over hundreds of thousands of dollars, realistically, right? Right. And I think with the gold logo, man, it's like it's all player dependent, you know, and I think Otani is a special case. And I don't think any other player would even come close to what we're seeing in the auction right now. Yeah. I mean, I think a lot of people will agree with that. I don't want to knock Lewis Gill, but, you know, let's look the other way. The NL rookie of the year was Paul Skeens. So we're more hopeful that Paul Skeens is going to have a productive career, like a better one than Lewis Gill. I wonder at that, you know, at that point, his rookie of the year gold logo, man, might fetch a good amount as well, if you have. And then, you know, I can't believe we're talking about this, maybe 2026, we'll talk about it more. Are we back in on pitchers because of Paul Skeens? Or is Paul Skeens the exception? Do you know what I mean? Turkish School Ball is making a good case now, but I feel like with pitchers, I'm still treading with caution. But like I said, it's a it's another episode altogether. And they need a longer track record, too, right? Yeah, I think it's a hot take where I believe that catchers and pitchers are going to correct itself. Like, meaning like, I believe everything will correct itself if it's eventual, because we've been doing it like we've been saying there's no value in pitchers and catchers pre COVID. Right. And it was true. But is it true for, like, the actual value of the card? If you look at Nolan Ryan's rookie card, you know, very high, high, high desirable card, you know, especially valuable in a in a PSA 10. So history, you know, shows itself that yeah, these do mature just as well as a player does. Right. But for me, I think eventually, just like how we said, you know, the trends, even, you know, kabooms and downtowns and, you know, all these other, you know, cards that are valuable now, they, they all have their evolution. So yeah. Yeah, I mean, one thing I'll say about pitchers is generally speaking, it's lower, much lower risk, right? Because the value isn't there for a lot of them. You never know, you know, 120 win season can change, can change the value in just a season too. I mean, we saw with on the batting side with Cal Raleigh, 160 home run season or 50 home run season can, you know, certainly make a difference in the value of the cards just within one season to the next. So you never know, but there's risk involved. All right. We got a little off topic, off tension on that, but, but yeah, go Logoman, check it out on FinanxCollect. I'm curious to see where it ultimately ends up in terms of value. All right, let's move on to hobby headlines. Okay. So this PSA scandal doesn't seem to be going away. I keep seeing more content creators and it's interesting from both the sports card side of things and Pokemon card content creators. They are up in arms, they're talking about it. So I think we should talk about it as well. But in a nutshell, if you don't know what's going on at all, and you've been staying away from social media, the controversy started about a couple of weeks ago when a collector on X, I think his name was Preston. He submitted a bunch of Pokemon cards to PSA. Many of them were graded a PSA 9. Now if you're in the US, I believe this is not available to Canadians yet, but if you're in the US, you can receive a buyback offer by PSA or have PSA ship the graded cards back to you. All right. So they'll give you a buyback offer and I think it's good for 24 hours if you want to accept or not. So in this instant, the collector, he accepted the $30 buyback offer. That was the value, the card market value for those PSA 9s. But here's the controversy. When he checked the cert number again, he noticed those same cards with those same cert numbers were slabbed in a PSA 10. And if you don't know the value of that specific card, it's more than double the PSA 9 value. So the allegation is that PSA has been buying back PSA 9s through these buyback offers only to flip them as PSA 10s, making a nice profit. Now the collector did say PSA made him whole and said the initial PSA 9s that he got were apparently a mistake and got bumped up afterwards. And the collector was happy that he got his money back and those PSA 10s were all shipped back to him as well. So obviously the collector was happy. But of course, that still raised a lot of questions from others in the hobby. Why didn't PSA notify the collector when they bumped up the grades? Was this truly a one-off like Jeff Wilson, aka sports card investor, seems to believe? And his argument, and I'm sure he's not the only one, but his argument is that he would question why PSA would even risk their reputation by doing this at all as PSA is making a ton of money right now anyway. So I'm curious, Hyung. What do you think happened? And a follow-up question to that is, do you think PSA is going to suffer at all in terms of business consequences because of all of this? I'll answer that first one is no. Okay, and then I'll come back to that. Wow, this is our section called hobby drama, right? I guess we could have it because it seems that there's drama every week for the most part. I think it's just a really bad look, obviously. But let me get this straight. So I don't think PSA is buying them back. I know there's a buyback option, but to my understanding, and I could be totally wrong, you guys correct me if I'm wrong, I believe that that's the going price based on the marketplace and they have buyers that are willing to pay for that. So I don't think PSA is actually buying it. So I think if there's a claim that PSA is buying these and just literally changing the grades, then I don't think that's a direct representation of PSA, the company, right? I understand it looks bad on PSA and maybe you're not going to like my take because some people want every single reason to bash PSA, which is fine. Like I said, it comes with the territory. You're a multi-billion dollar company if they are right now. It comes with the territory. Of course you're going to have people take advantage of the system or take advantage of opportunities where they think they can get away. And that's what I think it's what we're dealing with here. And I don't think the way PSA handled it was great. I think that's a crock of crap where they're saying that, you know, oh, they misgraded it. It's like, hey, I have a bunch of PSA 7s, you want to misgrade them and give me 10s for them? I'm more than happy to. But I think that's just kind of like, you know, just putting the soil over, you know, the actual wound. So for me, like, I think it's not a rep, one, it's not a representation where of PSA as a whole company. So, you know, I understand Jeff Wilson's because you like I deal with like, you know, I see companies that have their whole reputation and I know what PSA's revenue is. There is zero chance that they would risk the reputation of something so idiotic as this to say that this was part of the plan from a corporate standpoint. Like it's insanity because everybody should be fired from the top down. And we know that that's not the case. Like it's not because the way these people, these leaders, the way Michael Rubin thinks, it's not to get money like this. There's way quicker ways to make money than this. Now, could an employee who could have seen an opportunity where he could have gotten away with something like that? I could see that more being likely and PSA literally, you know, taking out the fire because of this eruption. Whatever happens to me, I don't think it's going to affect PSA because I guarantee you there's stories about PSA and you guys do your own research. I'm not going to say I'm out on here, but they're always under the gun and it's not necessarily it could be a reflection back then of PSA of who was in charge. But, you know, it's usually individuals who take advantage of whatever system it is. And you can't really judge the whole company based on an individual's action that probably, you know, is going to get caught for this. You're going to, you already made a lot of people angry with that take. Yeah, I know. But I see it. But like, that's why I don't get involved. This is like literally my unbiased take where I'm, like I said, it's too much on the line for a multi-billion dollar business to even make millions of dollars. Like it's, there's way easier ways. And they showed, it's like, look at how much commission they're making on Fanatics Collect, you know, off this multi-million dollar, you know, thing. And they released this set too. So they made millions off releasing the set and now they're making, you know, thousands of dollars just off one card off a million dollar auction. So to me, it's like to take PSA 9 slabs and then just like take them and regrade them and take the profit in between is nonsense. Well, I'm not going to argue personally with you, but I will, I did read a lot of the comments and, you know, that's been brought up too, right? Like, why would PSA do such a thing? And then, you know, someone brings in the Enron example, Enron was making hand over fist money, but then they got caught cheating a little bit here and there, you know, and why would they do that? You know, greed, right? It all comes down to greed. So whether it's an individual level or corporate level, I think all things are possible. One thing I'll disagree with you on is I think there is a non-zero chance PSA or any corporation could even get caught doing something like this because of greed. I just think it's just human nature. And once you start making a lot more money, I've noticed even in my modest budget, household budget, the more money I make, it creeps into your mind. You're like, how can I make more? How can I save more? How can I, you know, save more on taxes? And you don't think about those things as much when you don't have a lot of money because you don't have that luxury. But when you get, you know, I don't want to get into a moral argument, but I'm just saying that because there's human greed out there and corporate greed out there, anything's possible to me. So with that said, I do agree that it's unlikely with you, I agree that it's unlikely PSA would have done this secretly, purposely, continually, do you know what I mean? As if they would never get caught. And we always say this too, the greatest thing about our hobby right now is the super sleuths out there online. It's like, it's hard to get away with anything. And this is a case in point, you know what I mean? If there's an issue, guess what? We're going to put it out on social media and then a lot of people are going to look and hear what, you know, is said online. And then there'll be some kind of reaction, like it is impossible to hide things in this hobby. So we're almost like self-policing in that sense. So that's why I don't think, for me, it doesn't make sense for PSA to do something like this. And I know people like to knock Jeff Wilson and he didn't do himself any favors by coming out here and defending PSA right away. Plus the fact that he just announced this past week, Cards HQ is becoming an official PSA submission center. So there's this conflict of interest. They're like, you know, that's low hanging fruit for all the Jeff Wilson haters, right? They're like, oh, of course you're going to defend PSA. You got their store coming into the, it's just bad timing for Jeff Wilson. If I was Jeff, I would have just said nothing at all, you know, knowing that PSA was coming into Cards HQ, but it is what it is, I guess. Well, I think that's the geniusness of Jeff Wilson is he, even though we don't agree with like, it's like, why, like, I would never do that. Like even like, you know, give my opinion. I guess I'm doing it right now because you asked, but like voluntarily give my opinion as content where I see Jeff as, you know what, this is great. This is exactly what I want because I'm launching a PSA grading submission. It's like, hey, more eyes on this. The numbers don't lie. Do you really think, and this is a genuine question to all that want to boycott PSA, including us. Like we said, we're never going to submit yet. We're thousand dollar customer of PSA submitting, but that's my whole point. Is it going to stop? It's not. The business, the numbers don't lie. The demand is out there. People still need cards graded, right? It's not going to stop. So for me, I see Jeff Wilson seeing that and, you know, creating content, whether or not, you know, people agree or disagree, most, a lot of people seem to disagree with Jeff Wilson on a lot of things, but I see just as half 50% agree with him and he's, and that's the medium you want as someone who really gets attention on them, good or bad marketing. That's a good polarization of being a contradiction thing, but not necessarily being on one side to too much. Yeah. And you know, like people are also going to say on social media, they they're seeing smaller card stores, not as big as cards HQ, of course, but some of the smaller card stores have stopped their PSA submissions until there's more clarity on what's going on. Right. So, you know, they've canceled, you know, the PSA pickups and, and, you know, if you wanted to submit through their card store, they're not doing it right now, but I have a feeling in a month or so they'll be resuming their PSA operations. That's insanity. And if you own a hobby shop, please, like for me, I don't like, I think that is one of the biggest mistakes you could actually do because in reality, like you got to understand distribution is totally different in 2025, 2026. And if you think that distributors are needed more and more, it's actually going the opposite direction. Yes. Of course, there's a lot of, you know, great stuff from a hobby standpoint for a hobby shop. I would always support a hobby shop over, you know, going direct. But if you're starting to say, well, you know, we don't need PSA. It's like, well, that that's where I'm concerned is because they could quickly turn around and say, well, we don't need you either. Right. And we're looking for someone who's willing to work with us because they have a valuable product or service to, you know, fulfill. And to me, it's like, that's what you're going to get in this today's society, whether you boycott them or say, you know what, we don't stand for this. It's like, well, that's part of the PSA is not going away. And for me, it's it's you wouldn't be doing yourself justice or your business because it's a great source of income, in my opinion, because I'm looking for a hobby shop right now to submit my cards because I don't want to go PSA direct. Right. So it's like, if you're taking that service away, you're not making my job easier from a hobby standpoint. You know, I'm gonna have to probably ship my cards out or maybe even look not even locally anymore. Right. It's like, hey, you know what, online, there's options where there's another PSA, you know, distributor that's offering a better deal. And it's just as good. So why not use them? So for me, I wouldn't boycott, but I again, I don't own a hobby shop, but that's just my two cents. Right. Listen, I don't have a problem with copy shops boycotting, but it is definitely a business risk. Right. So so that's something to consider. And if it's if you're doing a moral principles for yourself, for yourself, then, yeah, put put your money where your mouth is. Right. And maybe open up a BGS submission center, you know, and then go to other graders, make it easier for collectors to go to other graders. And you're going to find, especially in this landscape, right, hobby landscape right now. Yeah, it's a risk you're taking financially. So, you know, whether the boycott lasts a long time or or very short, we'll see how it turns out. But I do think just generally speaking on social media. Yeah, I've seen a bunch of these posts with different hobby shops boycotting. But it's always the case, whether you're for or against any issue, the loudest speakers are the ones that are against a bigger, you know, corporation or corporate entity or, you know, I mean, like the louder, negative, more negative voices or more critical voices, I should say, are usually the ones that we hear the most. Right. And and, you know, it's always the case there is always usually a silent majority that don't pipe up. You know, I think neocards and comics I just saw recently on their YouTube video on this whole PSE scandal. They put a poll out there. It wasn't a big poll. Over 100 people voted. But the question was, are you still submitting to PSA after all this? And guess what? The results were at 30 percent said something like, I don't I don't get involved in grading. OK, so that doesn't even affect them. Right. And then the remaining 60 is like 50 percent out of the hundreds of half are like, yep, I'm still submitting to PSA. And then the remainder of 15 to 20 percent is like, no, I'm not going to. And I will even say those 15 to 20 percent. I guarantee you one of these days you get back to PSA. I've been saying this for years. You're like, oh, shoot, my PSA 10s worth this much. All right. Exactly. That's all that that's all it takes. That's all it takes is you look at eBay sold prices. That's all it takes. Yeah. And to me, it's it's not saying it's bad or good. Right. It is. That's part of the hobby. That's the great part of the hobby. Sometimes I grade rock cards and I get PSA 10s. And I love that I have value within those cards because ripping doesn't make sense anymore. But you know what? It didn't make sense five years ago either. But I'm submitting these five years, five year old cards that are worth something now because of the value PSA gives. So I can't necessarily profit off of them and always, you know, talk bad about them if I'm gaining from their brand presence. Right. So going back to that, Clark, I will say I don't mind the criticism against that either. I think I think PSA needs to be accountable. And I think it's things like this that I'm 100 percent OK with. Let's expose it. Let's get down to it. But let's not completely say it's 100 percent this or 100 percent that, because there's a lot at play. That's that's it. And it's not saying that PSA is great. I'm saying PSA has a lot of issues. It's always been like that. And I'm just hoping that as we evolve, we address these issues that come up. So something like this can never happen. Or at least you as a company and a brand need to continuously build internally, whether it's processes to gain the trust of their current customers. Right. So we do have a lot of, you know, customers that, you know, you know, matter. So for me, I like all of this. I don't think it's all negative. I think it's inevitable or invaluable feedback from the community. And it's PSA's job to now respond to that. So it's a it's a dance of kind of like the good and bad that continues to evolve. And I will say this last point I was going to mention earlier. We don't know how the hobby is going to look. The more I see it, the more it's unknown because there's so many factors at play that didn't exist even a year or two years ago. And it has to be on the crux of how society moves. And that's the thing where we are at such an kind of like an unknown place in society. A lot of moving parts, a lot of paradigm shifts, a lot of things that, you know, are shifting that will bleed into our hobby. And to me, if you define our hobby by yesterday's thought patterns, like always like it, this is the way it was. So therefore, this is the way it has to be. And every single thing that PSA does is counter to that because they're evolving. It's going to be a very, very miserable place for you. I'm just saying it's because that's that's the realities of it. And then for me, that's that's where I'm seeing this at. Yeah, no. Good point. Good point. I mean, if you look at another industry like the. Movies, TV, streaming, that's, you know, no one could have predicted where we are now. And I'm specifically thinking about Netflix trying to buy out Warner Brothers. Like, that was unbelievable to think about even five, ten years ago, right? And you know, different companies take charge, grow faster, and make a play. And you know, who's to say PSA will always be king? We kind of joke about that. There doesn't seem to be anything able to stop it. But you just never know. People said the same thing about Blockbuster back in the day, right? So yeah, anything could happen. And I do like your point, and I'm glad you brought it up at the end. The one thing that PSA could certainly do better, and even Probstein, we don't, I don't think he even mentioned anything with what happened to Snipe, but because, and this makes me think the industry where we, the hobby itself is still relatively young and growing and evolving, like we could do, or hobby companies can do a much better job in communicating things. You know? Like, the fact that we still don't know what happened exactly with PSA, I think Nat Turner did go on Sportscar Nonsense Podcast and said, you know, PSA, I think they mentioned that PSA themselves don't buy it back, but kind of like what you're saying, it's the market value and there are buyers out there they're trying to connect with. But there's no, I don't think there was an official statement, you know what I mean? In terms of what happened to clear up things. And I think in other industries that are more well established, you have that right away because you don't want to, you know, leave that to people's opinions. And for more established industries, you have publicly traded companies and you got to be accountable to your shareholders and things like that. You know, we're not there yet, you know what I mean? But I think the hobby, like a lot of industries are, is going to trend that way if you want to grow and become much more established. No, that's very good context, 100% the way you have to look at it and that's why it's where we're in such a birthing stage of a whole industry. And to me, it's like, there's going to be mistakes, there's going to be stupid, stupid decisions, but there's going to be some great decisions as well. There's going to be a lot of failure, but there's going to be a lot of success and it goes back to like, why I'm, you know, bullish on the hobby is because we don't know. And to me, it's like that uncertainty and kind of like the trends that we're seeing. It's like, okay, this is a really, really interesting time because in reality, if markets were similar right now, we'd all be getting crushed. You look at the economy right now, like you look at the real estate market. If in a normal market, the economy is terrible, we're in such a bad place, but in an emerging market, that's the only way to withstand kind of like the regular economics of kind of like society. And that's what we're seeing. And it goes to a if you're creative, or, you know, you have less fear than the most, this is a great time to kind of see the opportunities within the hobby. Because a lot of people say, oh, this is just, you know, a part time thing, a hobby of mine. But over the last five years, I've seen so many people go full time, like leave their jobs and they're finding a way to make it work, whatever that is, you know, you've done it through, you know, just media, right? And some people do it by flipping cards. Some people take the risk and open up a hobby shop, right? And that's where I think the magic happens. So for me, exciting, yeah, it's an exciting time. And you know, if you look at it that way, I think it's a lot easier to emotionally deal with, you know, when PSA screws up, because it seems like, you know, it's at least once a month that you know, you hear something that whether it's PSA sevens, or a scandal or card trimming, or whatever it is, you know, there's always going to be issues. And to me, it's non-threatening, if that makes sense. Yeah, yeah, I definitely get it. Let me end this segment with one more thing that popped up. I don't know if you have an opinion on it, but some people are upset that CGC at the same time as this whole PSA grading scandal, CGC announced that they're increasing their prices, right? So they're like, oh, some people are like, oh, you know, we're looking for other grading companies to go to, because we don't like PSA now, and now this is what you do, CGC, you're increasing. And then another smaller, much smaller grading company, C3 Grading, I've kind of heard of them, but not really. They're taking advantage by saying, they're going the other way, like, we're going to keep it at $9 per card, and we're going to add free shipping. Which strategy, do you have an opinion on which way you would have gone if you had a grading company? Yeah, if I'm CGC, they're doing it right, man. You get crushed if you lower your prices. Like, to me, it's like, they go hand in hand with market prices, too. Like you can't, so who's the company that's lowering their prices? C3 Grading. Exactly. So for me, it's like, no offense, but like, if you lower your grading fees, what is the resale market on a 10 versus a PSA, right? And it's like, that's going to drive the market. So are you, as a consumer, going to go to C3 Grading because you're going to save $9 per slab, or is the PSA $1,000 difference in price going to incentivize you to go to PSA and spend the extra $9, right? Easy, easy answer. And I know human behavior, regardless of where your moral compass is, that's going to be your deciding factor, whether or not emotionally, you know, you're like, oh man, these gradings are a ripoff or it's a scam. Yeah. Like, it is, seriously. How could you spend $20 and then get upcharged for a subject, but that's the realities of it. Right now, that's how our market sits. So for me, to lower your grading fees, I think it kills the valuation of the card itself. We've seen it with SGC. How did that kind of, you know, turn out for SGC when we thought it was the cheaper alternative? I'd never seen SGC as a cheaper alternative of grading until they lowered their price. And we've seen it crash. And luckily, SGC has enough history, and BGS too. Why do you think people are still grading with them? It's because history in the marketplace shows that a BGS 10 or a BGS even 9.5 still holds the value, right? But you're talking about a new grading company, C3, lowering your price, it's like no one's going to care because the market's going to dictate that. And then going to CGC, I think it's the right move, is because they have a brand that people actually turn to and say, you know what, the marketplace agrees that a CGC 10 will hold its value because they've done it over and over again within the Pokemon and even sport card marketplace, right? Maybe they don't value it as high as a PSA 10, but at least they have that. So for them to lower their pricing would be insane, right? The market demands there. Yeah, I guess it's different for CGC versus C3 grading, just because the size of the company is different, the scale of the company is different. So I actually don't mind C3 grading. They're not lowering their price, but they're shipping things for free now for I don't know how long, and their card is like $9 per card, whether you ship one or whether you ship 1,000. So that's their model. I don't know if that's going to work. You obviously think it's not going to work, but I think for a small company, it's worth trying different strategies, different tactics. So we'll see, but CGC, they've already established themselves, like you were saying, and we just did a last episode, we did the gem rate grading data quiz show, and CGC is firmly fixed in second place right now, largely due to TCG cards. So they're taking advantage of it, and that's a good business move. Let me ask you a question, Clark. You think as CGC increases their price, do you believe that it would de-incentivize people from sending? You think the numbers are going to go down on CGC? I think it's relative. They're going to see what PSA card prices are and what it costs to submit to PSA and what it costs to submit to CGC. I think it's still lower for CGC, so yeah, I don't think it will impact it that much. And then value-wise, what would you assign, even in Pokemon, a PSA 10 versus a CGC 10? I don't know what the percentage is. Obviously, CGC 10 is way lower, and they also have their version of Black Label, so that's a consideration. It gets up to a million? It does. So I don't know, to tell you the truth. I don't know if their increase in price would impact the value of the cards itself, whether that also sees an uptick, but that's something worth monitoring. No, I think it will, because I just feel like they're the closest to a PSA 10 alternative right now. And I believe BGS 10 has the brand value already to be that company, but they're not doing anything. They're literally trying to win a championship by sitting on the sidelines right now. What are we doing? Let's go back. Come on. Crazy. Anyways. That's how I was going to end this segment. Let's just go to Beckett. Come on. Crowdfund. We need to help Beckett as much as possible. Crowdfund. It's all crowdfund. Yeah. We need to help them out. All right. Let's go to our next segment. It is another round of Over Under. All right, the magic number for this Over Under is $10,000. You tell me if all these sales happened in the last couple of days, okay? So very recent sales. Did they go for more than $10,000 or under $10,000? All right. First one. The 2024 Bowman Chrome Yoshinobu Yamamoto rookie card, gold refractor, autograph, PSA 10. Oh my goodness. If this goes over $10,000, that's crazy. Oh. Yamamoto's been hot lately in terms of his card value. He's been really hot. Yeah. Oh man. Because of what he did to our Jays. But yes. Yeah. No. And I remember how cheap Yamamoto was too just right before. I'm going to say it's still under. I think it's getting there though. I'm going to say it's going to be just under $10,000, but I could see that card going over $10,000. The correct answer is over $12,000 yesterday. Wow. Do we have any other previous sales on that? Because that had to have been like a $3,000 card maybe a couple of months ago. Just to give you an idea. Yeah. That's something. I believe you. Yeah. I think his cards have definitely spiked up over the last month and a half. But yeah. $12,000. Yeah. I'd be interested to see this. Yeah. So I just checked the recent comps. So the $12,000 sale happened on December 11th, 2025. So earlier today. Damn. October 10. Two months ago. 2025. $2,949. Oh. That was spot on. Free grand. There you go. And that's a great example of how you can make money in the hobby. There's a perfect example. That's crazy. Yeah. And if you see those opportunities, it's a matter of saying, hey, you know what? Because I didn't believe it was a $3,000 card in the first place. But somebody did in October. And they sold it for $12,000. So to me, that's a great, great business trend. If you're doing that, you're well done. To me, that's what you reward yourself buying an Otani Auto now, right? That's what we're talking about. That's how you make a Yamamoto card to an Otani card. Just like that. There you go. All right. Next card. A couple basketball ones. And they're both Steph Curry. So the first one is the 2009 Topps rookie card, PSA 10. So not the Chrome, but the Paper Topps Steph Curry rookie card. PSA 10. Sorry. Do you have a pop count on that? Yes. The pop count for a Steph Curry Topps rookie card. That's crazy if his PSA 10s are over 10K. $372 is the pop count. $372? Yeah. Oh, I'm going to say it's over. Oh, you think it's low, the pop count? I think the pop count is really low. And I think Steph Curry is just really hot. In terms of kind of where he is with his deal, his new, I don't know what he signed for. And he's so, I know he's like overrated, not overrated, but he's so underrated, if that makes sense. Out of the superstars, like I'd take him over LeBron any day. Like for me. Ooh, hot take. Yeah, any day. Any day. Any day. Wow. And to me, prices are showing the same way. So I'm going to say it's over because it's pop 372. That's a great pop for that card. And I think, like I said, my theory is institutions are in on the card market. You might be right, because it is $12,000 sold a couple of days ago. It's paper. I thought I could trick you with that, but you can only imagine what his Topps Chrome rookie cards are going for now. Crazy. But that paper has to be a record sale too. Yeah, I wonder how much it went for during COVID. I don't think it went that high in COVID. It did, actually. Oh, it did hit? $18,400. Okay, so it's on its back. It's back on its way up. This is the most recent high. It went down to $4K of May 2024, a year and a half ago. And now it's... It's up to 12K within a year and a half. The hobby. All right, Steph Curry again. I told you the other one was also Steph Curry card, but it is not his rookie. It's his 2024-25, so very recent, Panini one-in-one downtown all-star card. So it's a downtown card. PSA 10? PSA 10, yes. Do you have a pop count for that? Sorry. Pop count's everything, guys. I'm telling you, with market prices, pop count's everything. Pop count for a PSA 10 is six. Six. See, some guy bought it for over 10K. I have a feeling, but maybe, and that's why. It's like, is that the true value? How many more are out there? How many more are being graded? And this is where the fluctuation and volatility of our marketplace, and people don't understand this, is like, in Cal Rally, Bowman Chrome, I said it last week, this is a perfect example. Nobody's submitting. That's why there's no pop. I have 20 of them just sitting in. So it's like, when people see the prices, what are they gonna do? Their behavior is great. It floods the market. Prices crash because it was never a $200 card. So taking that logic, I feel like that's similar to this Steph Curry. Is it a $10,000 card? I don't think so. Could somebody pay based on a pop six? Yes. It's all the right reasoning, but it did sell at $9,000. You know some guy's gonna pay $13,000 next week. So this guy made a good deal, I guess. Maybe. He's gonna show and then flip it, yeah. It might be a $5,000 card, though. It's true. I feel like he has multiple downtown. That's the thing with Panini. I don't get who has downtowns, how many they have, you know what I mean? But I think they're collectors. Like if you're a Kaboom collector or a downtown collector, you collect those cards. That's true. That's kind of like your stash, right? Yeah, no, that's true. And it's fairly liquid at all card shows, Kaboom and downtown. It's so liquid. Especially with repackers, too, right? So yeah, that's all good things to consider. All right, last one. I think when DC was on the show, we were talking about his buddy Mike and his golf cards. So this is the 2001 SP Authentic Tiger Woods Tiger Woods rookie card, autograph, number to 900, PSE 9. But the auto is graded as well. It's a nine with a 10 auto. So I know that this card was over 10K. I believe it was over 10K during COVID, or at one point. And I've seen an uptick of Tiger cards just in general on the base side. Yep. So I'm gonna say this card's over. I think the value's there. I think it's worth it. I think it's worth more. So I'm gonna say it's over. You're right, $11,741 right now. Wow, market's hot. Market's hot, PSE 10, pop count's 195. So for this PSE 9, it's 144. Total population is still under 500. Yeah. PSE's numbered at 999, but yeah, those two grades. Yeah, I think that those are great grades too, because I think a lot of those cards are with BGS, or at least similar pop, right? And then a lot are raw. So I'm very happy with that as a kind of like the card. I would say it's the Tiger Woods auto to kind of go after, other than really, really rare, like obviously Tiger autos. This is the grail of Tiger Woods cards. A PSE 9 out of the greatest golfer of all time, I think it's still a steal. There you go. The hobby's hot, and these prices show it. All right, let's finish off this episode with our regular weekly segment we call Pick One. All right, Tian, do you wanna start things off for us? Yes, sir. Okay, let's go to baseball off-season pickups, okay? So we're going with two players that I think are absolute war monsters, future Hall of Famers, but obviously they're still young. They're still babies in the big leagues, but I think there could be good buying opportunities in the off-season given their, I guess, their popularity. First is Juan Soto, obviously, we're big on Juan Soto. He's at like a 44 war or something, age 20, going into his 27th year of life. And he's already half a Hall of Famer. So for me, I think he's a great buy in certain cards because I know that there's not a lot of Juan Soto autos out there in terms of his rookie auto. Obviously, Bowman Chrome's the one to get, but the next best, I think it's his 2018 Topps Chrome update auto, very low supply. Although it's a sticker auto, that's the only knock on it. But like I said, it's either heritage autos, you got Bowman's best autos, or Topps Chrome, which is the hottest product right now out of, I say, all the brands. So the HMT55 auto X-Fractor, so number 2125, PSA 10. Recently, and recently means the last couple months, it sold for about $3,600, a PSA 10. Not bad. Yeah, not bad. I remember I sold the refractor of this version for about 10 grand at the time. That's crazy. So for the X-Fractor. Is that numbered? It is numbered, yeah, it is numbered, but I think it's double the pop on the X-Fractor. The X-Fractor's definitely the lower numbered card and the better looking card, in my opinion. So I'm gonna pair that up, so $3,600, okay? Versus, I'm going to 2022 Topps Chrome of Bobby Witt Jr., okay, someone I think is just unbelievable. He's one of my favorite players right now. I believe that he's a future Hall of Famer. The Red Wave, okay, rookie auto. A PSA 9 auto 10, okay, Topps Chrome, Red Wave, numbered to five, sold for $4,600. So $3,600 for a PSA 10 X-Fractor of Soto versus the Bobby Witt Jr. Red Wave auto, PSA 9 auto 10 for $4,600, so a little more. So I'm saying, you know what, I have a budget of five grand to pick up a banger of a card. PSA 9, you said, for the Bobby Witt? PSA 9 auto 10. The 2022 Bowman, what's the image on that? Is that his first Bowman? 22 Topps Chrome. Oh, Topps Chrome. Okay, so that's where he's in defense. Yeah, just throwing the ball. Both are Topps Chrome autos, Soto's Topps Chrome auto and then Bobby Witt's Topps Chrome auto. Ooh, that's, oh man. Hey, before you make a decision, before you make a decision, I'm just saying, Bobby Witt has been averaging like seven to nine war the last couple years, okay? Just saying. I love Bobby Witt. Yeah, Bobby Witt is a war monster. Like this guy, if he keeps on playing the way he's playing, we're talking like Otani, Acuna, Judge, you know, Soto, they're all in the same territory, I would say. I feel like the safer play is still Juan Soto, but if I'm, for these kinds of cards, in this range for me personally, I like to hold more longer term. So because of that, and I'm a big Bobby fan, it's an on-card auto, right? For the Topps Chrome, for the Bobby? Yeah, on-card auto. Red Wave, number to five, so the PSA nine is irrelevant to me. I gotta go with Bobby. Really? I'm going for Bobby with the higher upside. Interesting. So it's the higher upside, so the Wave wouldn't deter you away anymore. Yeah, that's a good point. I know we talked about it like in years past in this podcast, like Wave or Shimmer. What about Lava? Lava, I think if there's like a hierarchy, I'm putting Wave above all those, you know what I mean? So Wave is like second best to me. Second best, okay. Next to the True Red, yeah. Nice. Bobby, what? I thought you were gonna say Soto. And the sticker auto, oh, that's minus two marks for me. Yeah, yeah, no, the sticker auto, I think that's what would change a lot of people's opinion. But for me, I know Juan Soto sticker autos are okay, at least for me, because his Topps Chrome update, the HMT55 is always gonna be his rookie auto card. And then I think Heritage is a great buy too. Like I said, it's the on-card auto that Juan Soto doesn't have, so that's where the Topps Heritage, like Red Ink, I think it's a monster, monster card. Super valuable, super underrated, even the real one Heritage auto. But like, I agree with you. Like for me, anything orange or red, even gold, I consider it, anytime you have an opportunity to purchase one of those at like a, of one of the kind of like the bigger names, the A-type players, the Otani's Judge, Bobby Witt, Acuna, Soto, those type players, I'm going with the number to five. I don't care about the grade. You know, obviously you want the PSA 10, but in this case, I think 4,600 is really cheap for Bobby Witt. I think he's gonna be kind of like the next trout hype eventually, right? And he's so underrated. Like he gets no hobby love right now. I think he had a couple bumps here and there. It's criminal. It's criminal, it's criminal. I agree. I'm with you. I'm with you 100%. Nice. It's a good one. All right, I'm gonna finish off ours with, you know, if this is our, we were just talking about this off air. This might be our last, oh, actually we got a Friday episode and then that's it, but our last, possibly our last Tuesday episode for 2025 together. We will have other new episodes, but so I have to end up with Shohei Otani. Okay, so your budget is $102,000. Okay, $102,000, this is, both these cars sold for exactly $102,000. First one is the 2018 Topps Chrome. We're talking about Topps Chrome a lot. Orange refractor, rookie auto, number 25. Yeah, seen that. It's PSA 10, all right. It's $102,000, sold November 21st. And on that same day, November 21st, 2025, his 2019 Upper Deck Goodwin Champions, Kanji Auto, BGS 9.5, sold for $102,000. Dang. Which one are you taking? Oh, it's, sorry, the second one was, what brand was it? Goodwin. Goodwin. Good, Upper Deck Goodwin Champions. It's the one he's in a suit. And it's 2019? It is 2019. So the year after. I know, yeah, I know, I know, I know that card exactly. Oh man, I remember seeing that. Sport Royalty. Seeing that car for like six grand. Oh my God. Man, the Kanji Auto would be nice. I'm going, I'm going Topps Chrome, orange refractor, auto, 100%. Here's why. You can get a Kanji Auto ball for 15 to 20K, I think. Somewhere around there. So I would buy the Topps Chrome Rookie Auto because to me, the brand, the Topps Chrome, everything long-term, it's like, that's where it's at. I would buy the Kanji Auto on a ball rather than paying the premium on a card. So that's why I'm gonna go Topps Chrome, orange refractor, auto. I can't, you know, I can't knock you for it, but for me, I'm more of a card purist. I'm not a baseball collector like you are. I'm going with the Kanji Auto. It's so rare. He doesn't sign anything in Kanji anymore. I know, I know, that's why, but like for me, I was talking to this guy who resells balls and he, we were talking about the Kanji Auto and like the prices that they were going for and it's ridiculous. And I could be wrong. It could be double what I just said. So it might be 50K. Like, I don't know what it is, but you're right, like in a card, I think, even the Bowman Chrome that's in Kanji, I think there's a backstory because that's not even the original signature, right? Or like it wasn't supposed to be a Kanji Auto. Like it was like wiped or something and then re-signed by Shohei. So like for me, it's like, there's not a lot of Kanji card autos, but to me, it's that $6,000 price tag that still burns in my head saying, okay, if I'm spending $102,000 right now, you know, that's it. And I know I can't think like that cause I also seen, you know, that Topps Chrome Orange Auto for like three or $4,000 at one point. So, but to me, it's just more of the brand. I believe in the Topps Chrome brand, what they're doing to it. I think all Topps Chrome, like rookie autos are gonna hold the premium now. And I thought in baseball, Topps Chrome rookie autos were always undervalued in my opinion, always. So I think it's just catching up. It's correcting for sure. I don't think there's a wrong answer with this one, but yeah, I'll put a poll out there. I'd love to hear what others have to say for that particular pick one. All right. Thanks a lot, guys. We appreciate all our listeners and yeah, we'll have a brand new episode for you on Friday. Talk to you then. Bye. Hey, thanks for listening to Cards to the Moon. We'd really appreciate you subscribing to our podcast wherever you listen to your podcasts. And you can also connect with each of us on Instagram at 5cardguys, or you can follow Hyung at Integrity Sports Cards or John at TradeUatRecess. You can also check us out at 5cardguys.com. Thanks again and hope to connect soon. you