Scarcity + Nostalgia = Dopamine Rocket Fuel + Are Hobby Monopolies Real? + Giving Back Through Cards

This podcast episode is brought to you by Progressive Insurance. Do you ever think about switching insurance companies to see if you could save some cash? Progressive makes it easy. Just drop in some details about yourself and see if you're eligible to save money when you bundle your home and auto policies. The process only takes minutes and it could mean hundreds more in your Beckett Visit progressive.com after this episode to see if you could save Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates. Potential savings will vary. Not available in all states. Sports cards is a lifestyle Sports cards and we live now Jeremy Lee in the building and every guest that you ever needed Sports cards after hours keep the hobby heated updates hobby talk like you never seen it Sports cards live one-of-one no kid ever beat it Sports cards is a lifestyle Sports cards and we live now. Welcome to another episode of Sports Cards Live with your host, Jeremy Lee. All right, David, guys, let's, let's move it along now and bring on our guest to the show, everybody. We're going to bring on Phil Kakis from Sealed Wax Nation, who I had the Pulsar of speaking with. We had a, we had a bit of a meet and greet ourselves. I want to thank Alex from Collector's MD for making the introduction and to Phil and we're gonna bring him on. And while we do that, I'm gonna bring up Alex's collector MD banner up across the top, guys, collectors MD a stronger hobby brighter collectors rip responsibly. Check out collectorsmd.com and let, let your friends know what it's all about. But David, let's bring on Phil. Phil, let me know if you're ready to come on. Give me a thumbs up. All right, everybody, welcome Phil, to Sports. Oh, hold on, hold on, hold on. Phil, where'd you go? There you are. How are you? Hi, Jeremy. How are you? David, how are you doing? Great to see you. Hi. Good, nice to meet you. Yu-Gi-Oh glad you guys can meet each other. And I want to just say Phil, before we, we get you really to the chat. I, I can't wait to, to read all your comments. I haven't really had a chance yet, but we'll get to the, to some of them, but we're gonna focus on Bill right now. Phil, I, I really enjoyed our conversation a few days ago and you're doing some great things in the hobby, guys. Look at, look at what's behind him. Look at the collection behind him. Let's start by learning a little bit, Phil, about what you do collect and what we see behind you. Sure, I appreciate that. So I mostly collect Sealed wax. And I've been a traditional collector for 40 years. And I had started a sealed wax effort numerous times. Get a few packs, get a few boxes, and you know, one night of temptation, they're open. But about three years ago, I. I started a sealed wax collection. That's, that's some of which is behind me. And I still collect cards, but I enjoy the. Some aspects of sealed wax. They bring out to me more of the nostalgia, my good memories of the hobby. They bring back memories of walking to an LCS and wondering what boxes they might have in stock and wondering what you might get. The artwork from those boxes to me is a bit like a time machine. I mean, the cards are time machines too, but cards are about athletes. The boxes are about seasons, years, memories. And you might think of what you were collecting or what you were opening, what you were ripping in that year and what else was going on in your life. So I collect sealed wax because this collection to me is. It just feels like I get to enjoy a whole timeline, not just of the cards, but the people I collected with the stories I have. So that's my collection. Now how important is it to you that the graphics on the box are interesting or have athletes on them? I noticed a bunch of them behind you have athletes on them. And then the, the top just, just right under my finger there, those blue Topps Chrome boxes don't really have athletes on them. Is that important to you at all? It is. I mean, you know, I'm a consumer, so I appeal. You know, my brain works the same as everyone's. And what strikes me about Bach's artwork is the athletes. Maybe you're remembering the COVID athlete from that year, but going back to the era I love to collect from the mid late 90s, the aughts, the teens. You know, you're saying to me, Upper Deck sort of set the standard for box design, box artwork, and, you know, a lot of great things I could say about Panini, but one of them is not their box work. So to me, you know, looking at some of the, I don't know which way I'm pointing, but some of the Michael Jordan or Lebron boxes from years past, it just brings back memories of, you know, what I was doing in those years. I'm glad you mentioned the Topps Chrome boxes. They do have no athletes. Those are just the two years that Topps made that Topps Chrome Zebra as a box set. There are only 250 of each. That 2016 one doesn't have a great rookie class, but there's a gentleman named Aaron judge in the 2017 class. So that's a proud piece. I have Very, very good. It looks great. David, what do you. I mean it's a nice display, don't you think? Thank you. It's beautiful. Do you, do you want there to be ever a grading company that grades that box? I know packs are graded but boxes aren't. Right. Is there? Do you think that that would ever happen in the future? I'm not sure it'll go that far. I mean for now I think of it as a boolean of it's either factory sealed or it's or it's not. And certainly, you know, a lot of props to BBC for that company that Certified boxes from before there was factory seals. I appreciate that you mentioned that. Packs are great and I have, you know, some non sport packs. I went back and got the 70s Star wars impact because those boxes are pricey. Pricey. But you know, I've noticed that the modern wax packs are probably not going to. Those grading days are limited because there are abilities now to, you know, know where the case hit might be. So I'm not sure that modern is going to see pass graded. I don't know the boxes are going to be graded and I know there was a little bit of a scare that these boxes can be scanned. You can tell what cards are in them. So look to me, since I intend to keep them sealed, I'm not that worried about, you know, what happens when they're open. But I, I appreciate the design aspects and I don't give too much thought to what might be inside after that we had that conversation. Exactly. Because I also collect, I don't collect sealed boxes, but I do collect sealed packs. And I'm kind of, I wouldn't say I'm done the collection. I could see myself adding some other sports but you know, I've collected every single Opichi hockey wax pack from 1970 to 1980. 89. And that I didn't get the 68s or the 69s. Those are impossible. But I love them for the display ability. The pack itself is the collectible to me. I don't care what's inside. Just like you, Phil. We have that in common. A lot of people don't comprehend that. You know, it's like how can you not open these things? Because it's got to be so tempting. I don't think you feel tempted. I don't feel tempted to open them either. What, what, what, what is that? What is it? Do you Think, Phil, about these items. Like, I'm looking a lot at a lot of more modern boxes behind you. But when it comes to vintage packs, like, if you grew up opening wax packs as a kid in the 60s, 70s, 80s, I. I don't know. I. I have fun, fond memories of those years. And open and having those packs is a. It always brings me back to walking the corner store, buying my packs and opening them up. And, you know, I would stuff every P8. If I could get eight packs for two bucks, I'd have eight sticks of that gum in my mouth at one time. You know, one more, keep on getting them. You know, what about, what about you, when it comes to that. And then I want to hear from you, David, too, after, like, what you think of that. But you. Phil, please look, you know, including with packs and some of the boxes, I've had the fortune of opening those packs when I was younger, you know, and I've had that experience. I know what cards might be in there. I have some of those cards. When I started this collection that's displayed behind me, I was, you know, I take The Ken Griffey Jr. Upper Deck rookie and put it next to a sealed box. So it's not that there's not temptation or curiosity, of course, always. It's more that what I'm preserving here is the memory of having collected that season. You know, I know what cards are in there. That being said, there's also a little bit of, like, what I think of as the keeping the pint of Ben and Jerry's in the freezer when you're on the diet aspect to the collection of, like, of course I'm tempted, or I think about opening these and then, you know, the fact that they're still sealed makes me appreciate that's one more day that I've been able to control at least that, you know, sometimes impulsive behavior that comes along with collecting. Absolutely. Yu-Gi-Oh It's like Jim here says, boredom is the destroyer of sealed wax. David? Yu-Gi-Oh I'd like for you to, if you can expand on that. Like, has that ever happened where you've had a moment of weakness, even if this was early on in your journey while doing this, where maybe you had an extra two minutes to drink or you're just a little depressed that day, or your wife was out of the house, like, where you thought that you weren't going to open it? Did that ever happen, that you did open something that you weren't expecting to. My wife lets me open even in front of her. But first of all, yes. That happened a lot when I used to try to put sealed wax together and I would say, oh, I'll start another time. Let me just see what's in here. And I also, you know, because I'm human, I open blasters, I, you know, I open cards. But you know, especially as prices have gotten more and more, some purchases of sealed wax just don't seem, you know, appropriate to open at all. And also, I think, you know, just as cards are marketed and purchased and analyzed for their scarcity, you know, everything that's in my collection, sealed is more scarce than most of the cards that we're looking for in there. These boxes aren't one of ones, but again, a box run of 250 for Topps Chrome Zebra So in the same way that, you know, you might have a Allen and Ginter double rip card and you think, hey, this is the card. I know there's something inside there. This is the pack. You know, we don't rip our cards in half. And sealed wax is just as much of a part of the hobby. It always has been. It's the origin story of every single card. So, you know, the temptation is a lower, you know, feel at this point. Do you have any plans to open these boxes ever? Like I've often said, Phil, with my unopened pack collection, which I, I love it. I've said, you know, like on my deathbed, maybe I'll open up all those packs and just for, for, you know, my, my final sort of hurrah in the hobby, I'll open up those packs and see if I have a Jordan Rookie or a Jordan Fleer. If I have a Gretzky Rookie or a Dryden or LaFleur, any of Bossy, any of these cards would be really cool to see. Do you have any? You have your sight set on that at all? Not particularly. You know, I've, I had a lot more sealed wax at the beginning of the year and, and I, you know, use some of it to start the charity that I appreciate getting the chance to talk about later. So what's behind me is most of my sealed wax that's left. And I think of these as things I don't intend to open, but with some of them I'm looking to use towards the charity. And so I, But I think what you see behind you, I hope to either keep sealed or use for donation purposes. You know, with, with Sealed Wax Nation as a charity. Perfect segue into what you're doing with Sealed Wax Nation. Why don't you explain to everybody because it was somewhat new to me when I was introduced to you through Alex. What is Sealed Wax Nation more than I want to hear? Not only the what, it is why, I want to hear the why. And we, I think the audience would love to hear why Sealed Wax, what is it and why does it exist? Thank you. Well, so Sealed Wax Nation is a charity. Sealed Wax Nation donates cards and money to children's hospitals and youth organizations. I, in my background as an attorney, I started as a prosecutor and you know, I had been a collector as a child. As a teenager, I bartended my way through college and law school. So cards had brought me a lot of joy in every decade of life as a lawyer and certainly as a prosecutor. We were involved with the Hudson County Boys and Girls Club and I organized a large donation of cards to that fine organization. And throughout my legal career, after I left the prosecutor's office, I had been part of making donations of cards and rounding up, you know, from my co workers cards to donate to a children's hospital locally. I think a lot of attorneys, you know, are involved in charitable efforts. Every attorney in the United States is required to donate part of his or her time for the year. So throughout my legal career, especially because I think a lot of lawyers live with their clients hardships, you know, collecting itself became like this nice escape diversion to say, well, it's a community based hobby. We were using it at my law firms as a community based outreach and to get to where Sealed Wax Nation itself started as a charity. Earlier this year, I sold most of my collection, almost all of my cards and most of my sealed wax on Chasing Cardboard, Ty Wilson's show. And I used the funds that Ty Wilson paid me and also sold the Sealed wax through Pristine Auction. And those proceeds were used to start Sealed Wax Nation as an actual charity. Sealed Wax Nation is a nonprofit Connecticut corporation and it's pending 501c3 approval by the IRS. So what sealed Wax Nation has done so far as a charity is it has used the proceeds from the Chasing Cardboard sale. We've made donations to Silver Hill Hospital in my hometown of New Canaan, to Healing New York in New York City. That is America's oldest child welfare welfare agency. And I was fortunate enough to meet Jeff Wilson and Teapot down in Atlanta and do a donation at Children's Healthcare of Atlanta. And we want to continue what is coming up to be a multi state American tour. We've done three states. We have plans in Tennessee and Florida and in Massachusetts to continue to make donations and to highlight this is part of the hobby. I think, you know, to really answer your question, that's what I did. The why of it, I think had a lot to do with becoming a dad. You know, I have collected my whole life, but I think when I started to see the hobby through my daughter's eyes, watching her open her first pack of cards and feel that excitement, I started to feel some responsibility for how she's going to experience the hobby. Like I feel responsibility for everything else she does. And it sort of changed my perspective from that of a collector to a little more of a stewardship feeling of, you know, I want to make sure this hobby does for her what it's done for me, including letting her realize if we're fortunate enough to have cards to collect, if you even have a pack you can open or two cards, you have enough to give something back. My hope is that she and other people who watch what Sealed Wax Nation does will grow to think of this as part and parcel with collecting. I would note that throughout the last several years, when I would watch breaks online or participate in them, there became a trend that, you know, we don't mail paper, we don't mail base, and there is a universe of valuable cards. And what I mean by valuable cards is things that will make a children's life better, a child's life better, simply because it may have no value to you at the moment, but to a child spending time in a hospital, to a child in a disadvantaged environment, that card is like manna from heaven. So we don't generally donate cars to hospitals because hospitals really use money to improve their services. So we are highlighting, you know, hobby based donations and we hope to continue that throughout 2026 and into next year. So thank you for that. I think it's a real noble initiative that you've created there. David, what do you think? I mean, listen, before you go to, you know, with all the sort of like this hobby is. Is not just a bed of roses. There are negative things about this hobby. There's drama, there's crime all over the place. There is stress put on individuals, family. From a financial perspective, people can lose their shirt in this hobby. There's all sorts of negatives that are, that. That are just come out of this hobby, which is so financially driven, which it just really is. But this is the opposite of that. I think this is the hobby doing good things. Phil, what do you think? I like the way you said that. And look, there's a lot of drama in any space. I Think what's happening with the hobby is it's having its billion dollar moment for good reasons. You know, there was crime before, you know, throughout. And I think we're just seeing other sectors of society find their way into the hobby because of how much money has found its way into the hobby. Nothing about the hobby has changed. It is still a joyful experience. But yes, there are instances. There certainly there's controversy and certainly there are people. You know, you mentioned compulsive spending. I think anything on that topic is appropriately referenced to my friend Alex Efron, and I have learned a lot from him. His focus is on the collectors who encounter some difficulty. And his organization, Collectors MD does great work. But the fact that people are struggling and we have to pause and acknowledge that people in the recovery community deserve respect. People who are encountering hardship deserve respect. They deserve grace, they deserve patience. Everyone has an opinion, but we all know someone in our lives who has or is struggling. So if you hear about it happening in the hobby. Yes. Consider that there may be more details. That said, for anyone who is encountering, you know, difficulty, whether it's overspending or compulsion, what have you, there are resources, including with Alex's great organization. But just to back up, that's not anything the hobby has done, that's not the fault of someone. We're not seeing any intentional behaviors like you've seen in the past where people are being secretly harmed. And in fact, a lot of the controversy that you referenced existed in the 90s and the aughts, you know, at least legally that I've observed. A lot of these issues have been raised, questioned, reviewed, and they still deserve attention. I still find the hobby to be the greatest thing in terms of what we can describe in our experiences, what we can show our children, what we can talk about with our friends. I'm a different person when I am thinking about myself as a collector, as a hobbyist, when I am focused on steel Black Nation. I think the hobby brings out that feeling in so many of us, adults and kids alike. It's special, it's a treasure. And in fact, we say at Seal Wax Nation the hobby is a National Treasures We have to protect it. And that's the stewardship feel I get now. That's awesome. A couple comments. Jim define here says live good, be good, do good. Amen to that. I'll let you respond. What? In one sec, Phil. And then we'll go to David and then Sammy Hill says, phil, Rainbows, Babies and Children's Hospital in Cleveland is a place to look into as part of of your tour. Great sports city. Lots of young fans going through tough times. Great children's hospital. Please respond to those comments. I appreciate the input. This is exactly what, you know, I like talking about with people, these ideas, you know, the focus on the positive and how we can help. We're going to get to all 50 states if this is done right and then we'll get up to Canada and we'll get around the world. So I appreciate the comment from Cleveland, but to the first comment, I just want to say this. The hobby brings out what I think of as a near spiritual energy when you talk about doing it right and what issues are affecting us because I think we all feel this nostalgic urge to preserve what has been good for us. So, you know, people saying, you know, amen to that. Thank you by the way. But I think that energy is common to so many of us saying, hey, this is so what's good, we can do it better this way. And we do need to talk about the hard things too. But focus on the good. Insurance isn't a one size fits all, and shopping for it shouldn't feel like squeezing into something that just doesn't fit. That's why drivers have enjoyed Progressive's Name your Price Tool for years. With the Name Yu-Gi-Oh Price Tool, you tell them what you want to pay and they show you options that fit your budget enough. Hunting for discounts, trying to calculate rates, and tinkering with coverages. Maybe you're picking out your very first policy. Or maybe you're just looking for something that works better for you and your family. Either way, they make it simple for you to see your options. No guesswork, no surprises. Ready to see how easy and fun shopping for car insurance can be? Visit progressive.com and give the Name your Price Tool a try. Take the stress out of shopping and find coverage that fits your life on your terms. Progressive Casualty Insurance Company and affiliates Price and coverage match limited by state law David, thoughts? Yu-Gi-Oh so you know, I grew up opening, you know, packs. Actually that makes me sound very old ripping wax, but I grew up doing that too. And you know, you mentioned the joy that you saw with your daughter opening packs also, which I thought was like a nice thing. I have a young son also, but I've been hearing so much from the hobby that children are being priced out of opening wax these days. Like do you think that that's going on or do you think that there's just products for everybody? What's your thought on that? There are Products for everybody. But certainly, you know, prices are, you know, some of these box prices. But you know, I wanted the comment about children are being priced out, you know. Yu-Gi-Oh children are being priced out of buying those Panini briefcases. So am I, so are you. There is still retail product available everywhere and it seems that now more than ever. Fanatics and Topps seem to a great job with some of the retail stores. Target is reshelving, Dick's is reshelving. So I think as a dad, when my daughter wants packs, there are blasters, there are affordable blasters. I go down to my local card shop and that's where we shop and that's what we open. I don't believe that children are being priced out. I think it is accurate to say that the spectrum of pricing is wider and beyond belief than it was at any prior time. But there is still low, you know, lower dollar product and that's important that that stays the case. Nice, Bill. Oh, go ahead, David. One more. You know, you mentioned CT scanning, which I, you know, as it's interesting because I really felt like that was on everybody's brain like a year and a half ago, two years ago, and I feel like I don't hear about it as much. But, um, now, because you're not opening these things, does it not really worry you because you're not opening it one-of-one Or do you feel like you have to be buying from like the, the, the manufacturer? Or can you buy on ebay if you're not opening? Does it matter one-of-one to you? What's your thought on that? Yu-Gi-Oh so just to back up, I think one of the reasons the CT scan controversy died down is because you're not seeing evidence that it's effective. And specifically, what I mean is, sure, if I take one of those three card quote unquote boxes and wander into my local radiology department, Yu-Gi-Oh maybe I can see the way they can see through me. But if I take one of these bricks like a junk wax era Topps box, the CT scan is not going to see where Roger Clemens is on the four columns. To answer your question though, David, it doesn't matter to me as much. For that reason, I know I'm not intending to open it. I intend to donate it sealed or hopefully keep it sealed. I think if the CT scan thing had been real and people were just saying, look, as soon as I bring a box in, I see it, it wouldn't just be a problem for sealed wax, it would have been a problem for the whole hobby. We live and breathe on the ability to open boxes and distribute the cards inside. Phil, what is the Keep It Sealed American tour? You've alluded to it a couple times. What is the tour that you're incorporating into Sealed Wax Nation? Thank you. So it's, we are starting a state by state donation tour. We're looking, you know, I live in Connecticut and I work in New York City, but this is, you know, a worldwide hobby. I'm going to start with the country I live in and my goal, just like those rock tours of the 80s and 90s that, you know, I attended when I was younger, I want to go, you know, and it's not just going to be me, but around the country and then hopefully around the world and sort of export this particular brand of the hobby, which is we, we are giving back, you know, and we're going to focus on children. And maybe their first thought of the hobby will be, this is something that helped me when I was at a hard time. So the Keep It Sealed tour, which has so far reached Connecticut, New York and Georgia, is hopefully going to keep rolling into Tennessee to Florida and Massachusetts this year and then trying to plan the rest of the country in 2027. Very cool. Now, when we were chatting the other day, you said something that I wrote down. It's a formula. You, you, I don't know if you remember this. Now this is, we're kind of changing the topic here briefly, but you said, and listen up, guys, because I thought this is really cool. Let's hear what you think and I'll get Phil to explain it further. But you, what you said to me, Phil, if you remember, was you said, you said scarcity plus nostalgia equals dopamine, rocket fuel. Do you remember saying that? And if you do, why don't you put some context around that? Sure, Yu-Gi-Oh that sounds, I do remember saying that. And what I think compels me to collect and specifically sealed wax is the nostalgia element. But, you know, as a collector paying attention to prices and I'm. I'm also hoping my cards go up, my boxes go up. The idea of scarcity, especially, you know, Once in the mid-90s, once Upper Deck, like corrected the formula of the junk SWAX era and in my view, saved the hobby. I think those two things together, if you're remembering it and you're finding out that it's hard to get, one-of-one that brings out the more I need it. And not necessarily on a logical basis, just on this instinct, I gotta have it. And that's where the compulsivity comes in. I think each collector finds his or her own limit. We start with a healthy dose of personal accountability. I can feel the urge to rip and to spend, and I don't think there's anything that in the hobby that makes that involuntary to me as much as, you know, I've got to decide what's my budget, what's my goal. And I think every collector has that responsibility. That said, you know, nostalgia is a strong drug. Okay. And it's not new, and it's not just in the hobby. It is something that Don Draper taught us about in Mad Men as the single thing that we sell. We sell it in laundry detergent, we sell it in sports cards, we sell it in sports cars. That idea of, like, it was better when you were younger, and some things were better when you were younger. I am a child when it comes to my ability to overcome this. I'm a responsive nostalgist. So I think that dopamine comment is. Yes. What's driving you? Like, what's exciting about it? What's exciting about opening it as well, but collecting it is that idea of I'm keeping something and it might go up in price and I might have something someone else doesn't have. Some of these are the same thoughts that the cavemen were having when they were banging the bones on the rocks. I was like, this is mine and I have the bigger. I'm dressed a little nicer, but I'm still the same brain. Yu-Gi-Oh that makes a lot of sense. And I just thought it was. I think it's so true. Back to that formula. Scarcity plus nostalgia is like dopamine rocket fuel. Those are two things that when you put them together, you know, things can happen like this whole industry around the sports and trading card hobby and, and business. It's not just a hobby. The, the. This is also a business. Do you agree with that, Phil? I think you, you. I also think you were about to jump in, so I want to put it back to you. It certainly is a business, and, and there are a lot of businesses involved now, and there's a lot of hard working people. Those businesses, you know, they're trying to make money because that is literally the objective of a company. Sometimes companies make money by having more community focus than others. And certainly that is true of, you know, most of the companies in the hobby. But, Yu-Gi-Oh the hobby is a business. I think those businesses are run by experienced and smart people, many of whom are collectors, which is a great way to, you know, organize a business. All right, let's. Let's Change it up again now. So one thing that we were going to talk about. Oh, Certified, please. Yu-Gi-Oh Just a quick question. What is right now your favorite box you have and what's your ultimate grail? So the ultimate grail is, and I think you can see it on screen is this, I think is the 2009-10 tops basketball box. It's up here. And that is the box that has Steph Curry's rookie. But that box is sort of special because sort of three things happen at once. A little guy named Steph Curry in the rookie class, but that's not what makes that so special. It's also that Topps stopped printing Chrome as a separate product that year. And also right after the Great Recession, Topps drastically cut its production print run and people were buying less. So the final thing about that box is there is a one of one Steph Curry Rookie Superfractor that has never been found. And it's never been found because it's right there. And, and I'm going to keep believing it's right there until someone says otherwise. That is part of the magic of sealed wax. My David. My favorite box is on the other side is that 2017 Topps Chrome Zebra It's a box set. So technically it's not sealed wax in the same way that everything else is because there's a 700 card set in there. But you know, with the Aaron Judge rookie, that's the ultimate scarcity of a, you know, hall of Fame guy. So for my collection, I think that's my favorite. Good. Dave. Yu-Gi-Oh Cool. Nice. Phil let's talk about monopolies. It's not part of the, the title of this episode. We're going to get to the what made the hobby into a gambling machine shortly. But you mentioned to me that the subject of monopolies in the hobby was interesting to you. Where, where do you sort of fall on that? What do you, what, what do you find specifically interesting? What do you, let's add some context to that, if you don't mind, to, to start that discussion or. I, I think the legal issues in the hobby are of interest to me. And the word monopoly, you know, gets thrown around a lot as this idea of if there's only one of something, it must be illegal. That is false. The idea behind monopolies or the regulation of monopolies has, you know, has to do with consumer protection. And it's not that. Just we need more than one company to provide a service for it to be legal in the hobby space. You know, there is Current litigation about whether Fanatics or TOPs, you know, has done something that constitutes a monopoly. But what you're looking for when someone says monopoly is and it's specific to antitrust statutes that have to do with anti competitive behavior. And the question that's asked in a monopoly setting is has a company done something to freeze competition? A good example in the United States had to do with Microsoft in the 1990s and the idea of like could you get a computer and if you did, could you ever get anything else except their web browser? To the extent you Goldin that informed an antitrust claim. The topic of monopoly and the hobbies I assume is, you know, when we talked has to do with the fact that this major sports licenses are all owned by Fanatics. In my mind that doesn't have anything to do with monopoly. You know, it's not, it's not that consumers are unable to get cards or that some company is price fixing or that there is something anti competitive. I understand Panini executives feel differently and a court will tell us the answer to this. But in my opinion, like the monopoly issue is not what's, you know, it's not in the hobby as far as I'm concerned. It's not just the fact that Fanatics has most of the licenses that makes a monopoly or at least that merits legal protections because consumers I think are having their single best experience in the hobby in these years. You know, in terms of access to product, in terms of the quality of cards, in terms of the variety of cards. That's not the legal issue that gets my attention in the hobby right now, but I think it's an interesting one. You're probably going to get some pushback to the like access to cards from people because they'll tell you, well, you can't find the stuff at the stores and it's priced too expensive. But is that an issue or is that just more the landscape of the hobby? Because if you have the money, you can find the card sort of thing. How do you reconcile that? Sure. I think that has to do with the fact that there are more expensive cards than ever before. Meaning there are, you know, the prices are higher, box prices are higher, single prices are higher. Shohei dual logoman selling for 11 million is higher than anything we experienced earlier. That said, you know, having started as a collector in the depths of the junk wax era, access to cards isn't actually what makes the hobby good. When you have, you know, packs and boxes of 88 Donruss and Fleer in every clothing store that you visit, you know, you maybe have a little more access to cards. I'm not sure you have access to something valuable. And we have a, you know, a record of how cards held up from the 80s and 90s versus once Upper Deck started. Address the supply. I, you know, having collected throughout my life, including at times when I had very little money to put together, I'm not sure I find access to cards different now there, you know, there are still low dollar cards. Now there are still low dollar cards. They're more expensive now. You know, 40 or 50 from the blaster is a big deal. That is a lot of money to a lot of families. I don't mean to roll over that. What I'm saying, first of all, the monopoly is that has nothing to do with access to cards. That is a company's decision on how many cards to print. Malamar makes that decision as well. So something getting more scarce isn't proof that something is, you know, let me say it this way, something getting more expensive. And at least there being quality control on how much is printed is not evidence that it's not access. And I'm just using as my example going into a lot of local targets and dicks because anytime I drive by one, anywhere I am, I got to see. And you know, yes, sometimes the shelves are empty, sometimes the shelves are full. But I think, you know, including all the card shows that are around in every community, the ability to buy cards, including just sitting on your phone and doing it, you know, through other retailers, is easier to me than in the 80s and 90s when I didn't have the Internet and sometimes didn't have a car. So I don't think access is the issue. Okay, couple of comments here. Chris C. Said Monopoly, C, Collector's Universe. Mike Ham says Fanatics is a monopoly. That's a very definitive Absolute statement, which, I mean, I have a. I have thoughts on Fanatics. In a moment. Chris said, so is Collector's Universe and the thoughts I have on Fanatics because simply as the sole licensee, I feel like the monopoly, and correct me if I'm wrong, and I probably am, is really held at the licensor level, not the licensee level. Like we always blame Fanatics or we blame the company that has the license. Upper Deck in hockey, Fanatics in the other three sports, major sports. But the players and the team owners are the ones who voted to do that. They're the ones who assign and grant the license and decide how many licensees they want. So is the hobby in your Opinion misdirecting their anger at the soul. However, when it comes to Fanatics, they are very close with the license or with the licensors. So they may be able to say, hey, we want you to give us the only license. And they say, okay, because we're friends with you, maybe we'll do that. How do you, how do you feel about those comments? Is Fanatics monopoly? Is collectors universe monopoly because they own three grading companies? And how do you respond to the licensee, license or discussion that I just raised? Sure. In my opinion, Fanatics is not a monopoly. In my opinion, Collector's universe is not a monopoly. I'm not wearing a black robe. I'm one of the hundreds of thousands of lawyers in the country. The gentleman who just stated the confirming opinion is entitled to his as well. And with the licensing, you make a great point. This isn't, you know, when we look at monopolies and say, well, what if there's only one company selling computers? I'm going back to the Microsoft antitrust investigation that took most of a decade. The issue there was, did consumers have a choice? You know, could they get another brand of computer and still use the Internet? From a collector's perspective, the consumer that's intended to be protected by antitrust regulation, the consumer is not having different opportunities or paying different costs because Fanatics has taken the time and money to essentially unify the licenses. And as you pointed out, if that were the case, then the owners of those different franchises whose leagues decided to do business with Fanatics would have their rights curtailed. So from a consumer perspective, the fact that Upper Deck doesn't have as many licenses as it used to, that it only has hockey. You don't have a consumer protection right to say, I want multiple people to sell me basketball cards at the same time. And I note the somewhat inconsistent view that Panini also had these licenses for a decade and a half. I understand the effect that it has on their business to lose the licenses. I'm not naive. But it doesn't become a new legal reality just because it happens to Panini. So I don't find Fanatics to be doing anything wrong. First of all, I think they're doing a lot good. But more importantly, I don't see them illegally structured in terms of the grading. The same is true. It is not the case just because someone has increased market share or buys up other competitors. It is not the case that that alone makes the collector unable to have choices in who to grade. There are lots of choices who you can grade with I think most people want to gray, and maybe a lot of them will want to gray with spa. Jeremy, I congratulate you on that. You know, getting it off the ground. It reminds me of the wacky packages that I collected in the 80s and 90s, you know, whack, whacky. We're a serious business here at spa grading, Phil. And by the way, you're right. We are already in backlog. We're one year turnaround time now. But don't worry, guys, we'll. We'll grade your cards before. We don't even sometimes need your cards to grade them. So you might just want to say that's a. You have a Sepia and you're good. We'll back you up. But sorry, Phil, please grade boxes too. Phil, just so you know that I'll be sending all of these in for spa grading. I look, I think in terms of the options for grading companies, it's, what's happening is it's not that PSA slabs are getting a higher, you know, secondary market value because collectors has a monopoly. It's be, you know, PSA has that advantage. Not because they took everyone else away. They already had that advantage. And I think that hurt SGC and BGS in some years prior. But market share alone is not what makes a monopoly. There are competitors to collectors, universe graders. They're just not realizing as much money on turnaround. And collectors have a choice, including having the choice to just say, I'm going to go with who has the biggest market share because I want the most value for, you know, I want the most turnaround when I pay for grading. But collectors also have the choice to go with a smaller company. There are so many excellent companies have quicker turnaround. They don't get to then say, oh, mine's not as high value, therefore it's a monopoly. Jeremy, I think when you and I spoke, I tried to express that these companies don't necessarily have an obligation to provide secondary market flexibility for every collector and everyone else in the hobby. And I think that's where a lot of the controversy and debate comes around. Yu-Gi-Oh that makes sense to me. It's nice to have an actual legal mind and someone who has some experience, experience with this speaking to us tonight. And so, you know, anyone who's listening, watching right now, you know, you might have a different understanding or belief. But I, I'm just, you know, if you're kind of pushing back on any of this stuff that Phil is discussing, show me your law degree. Seriously, like that. It's kind of it's one thing to be frustrated. It's another thing to be able to understand illegal ramification because we use terms sometimes in the absence of something more convenient. I think people use the term monopoly as loosely as we use the term goat, or as a grading company uses the term gem mint 10. So. Yu-Gi-Oh but, Phil, you wanted to kind of jump in there, and then we'll go to David, what were you going to jump in there? Actually, all I wanted to say was it's not the case. The fact that I have a law degree doesn't make my opinion any more valuable or accurate. What I mean is we need to be able to talk about these things. You know, like Denzel said in Philadelphia, explains me like, I'm five, you know, not at a lawyer's level. My opinion is informed by my law degree. But when a lot of collectors are unhappy about something and I, you know, I know the issues that bring up controversy, their opinions, you know, we need to talk them out, talk them through and hear all of them. I don't think mine is more correct, but it's certainly a confident opinion. Fair enough. Okay, David. And just, you know, because you're saying that doesn't really matter about market share, so let's just. I know this is a hypothetical, but, like, if collectors ended up buying cgc, TAG, and MBA and they even controlled even more of the market, you still would feel like that they don't have a monopoly, correct? No, it's not that. It's an unlimited amount of market share or an unlimited number of companies being bought up. Again, when I. When I. When I think of antitrust regulation and the issue of monopolies, what I'm looking for is the effect on the consumer is the consumer. You know, first of all, the consumer has choices, you know, including, you know, just because companies are owned by the big umbrella doesn't mean that your experience at Beckett and PSA are the same. So. But even if you have choices outside there, I think a court would probably look at market share decreasing in your example and say, who's left? And I don't find that to be the landscape now. The great thing about legal arguments is there are never yes or no answers. There's so much gray, there's so much subjectivity, there's so much sliding scale. Your hypothetical makes me think that sounds like a monopoly. Where we are now doesn't make me think that. Thanks for tuning in and being a part of the sports cards live community. 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