Should Card Restoration Be Allowed? + The Hobby's Next Big Battle + Counterfeit Concerns

Hey, it's comedian Adam Ray, and I'm inviting you to listen to my podcast about Last Night. Every Monday, I'm sitting down with some of the biggest names in the game. We've had on guests like Sandra Bullock, Melissa McCarthy, Bill Burr, Joel McHale, Jason Derulo, Adam Devine, Tiffany Haddish, Neil Patrick Harris, Tom Segura, Whitney Cummings, Scary Payton, Sean Kemp, Dana Carvey, the head and the heart, and more. So grab a burrito, put your kids in the garage, call up your stepdad, and enjoy the About Last Night podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Michael Jordan Sports Cards is a lifestyle Sports cards and we live now Jeremy Lee in the building and every guess that you ever needed Sports cards after hours Keep the hobby heated Updates, homie Talk like you never seen it Sports Cards Live and I could ever beat it Sports cards is a lifestyle Sports cards and we live now. Welcome to another episode of Sports Cards Live with your host, Jeremy Lee. And, David, how's your time? I have a couple more minutes. Okay, great. K says this isn't going to be for everyone, but I can see where it can help. My business link said what type of security is going to be used to prevent card switching? Label switching? This is going on for you, Chad. And there was another comment somebody left where they said, like, you can seal the top with your sticker, but what about the bottom and the sides to. To. To really secure those from tampering. And Chad, I'm just going to say try to get your answers out quick because there's a lot here. You got it? Yeah. You. You've got. The stickers are tamper proof, so they're going to self destruct. Like I mentioned, you've got the verification of the number on the website, so that's going to match the card and then the sides. Nothing's stopping anybody from cutting those cards like Beckett faced years ago. But that's the thing that we're going to look at the market to be able to identify that with resealing and things like that, we can't. We can't fight that. But. But we're hoping that the consistent sizes of the holders will. Will maintain that. All right. Ziggy said, this guy inspires me. It's tough to put an idea out there for criticism. It absolutely is, Chris, he says, because up charging is extortion, period. And I just want to say, back off the upcharges, guys. Back off. Back off the upcharges. I love upcharges. Upcharges to the moon. As I'm known for saying, I love upcharges because when I buy a card in the PSA slab, my insurance premiums are covered by the upcharge payer. But on a serious note, when you submit cards to psa, you know that you might get upcharged. So is it really extortion or is it like you agreed to. To potentially be extorted? Maybe you're the idiot for agreeing to be potentially extorted. I don't know which way I fall on that, but, I mean, it's worthy of conversation. Mickey Mintle says the free market has a way of defining a product's worth. Absolutely. He also says this guy is offering the hobby something. The free market will determine its worth. We need more guys like this. Those back pages, Eric says there were people that would open and reseal one of the other three edges on the. On the rcr, on the card saver. So that's what I. Thank you, Eric. That was what I was just talking about. Ziggy no says, I'm curious how this guy got Jeremy's attention. Are you using them, Jeremy? David, anyone? Chat? No, Ziggy. I've never used CHAT or gcc, but I get a lot of people get my attention. Ziggy. It's not very hard to. It's not very hard to get my attention. And I got people reaching out to me all the time, telling me about what they're up to. Mookie Chelson said, the grading marketplace is starved for disruption. Could you grade the cards on camera, live stream it so you have real time, greater notes, transparency builds confidence. What are your thoughts there, Chad? No, I love stuff like that. I think that's a great, great idea, Mookie. We. We love doing that. And that's something that we'll probably talk about after this. There we go. Let's go. Jordan says, come on, fellas. Chad has a new innovation. Absolutely. Charles says, the banhammer. Jeremy Banhammer. Jeremy is best for hobby business. Ziggy no says, I am learning. Hope I'm not upsetting you. This is interesting. In my opinion, an example would help more like more modern or vintage Ziggy. You have not upset me today. You've upset me in the past, Ziggy, but you haven't upset me today. Let's go. Jordan says, I like the idea. Hobby Champ says, exactly. Jeremy. People think they can come into these chats and just say whatever they want. That ain't how it works. Well, it might be how, you know, I appreciate that. Hobby champs. And it might be how it works elsewhere, but listen, I become a lot more tolerant, I'll tell you that. But there. There is a. There is a line. Ken Fickle, Good evening to you. I. I love weed. No, you are far. You've never done anything to bother me. I don't think. For the Game says. It's not about bothering me. It's about disrespect. For the Game says people's time and effort to give the hobby choices is each of their own. Everyone can choose what they want. If you try it and it's not for you, move on. If it is perfect, like, that's as simple as that. Wrestling card says the hobby needs more reputable grading companies with a background in the hobby. It can't just always be about psa. We are seeing their flaws come to light more often. And Chad is not just out. Chad isn't just somebody starting a grading company from his basement. He's been in the industry for 20 years. So. And that'll. That'll tie into a comment, I think, that we had from Vintage Oddball, who says, my issue with these grading companies is we don't know who's grading the card. Never heard of this company. Why should we trust him? What makes him different than an experienced collector looking at a card? Well, Rick, you may have missed the beginning when he. We explain. When he explained sort of who he was and what his history was. But all that said, I think Vinod Oddball makes a. A very fair comment saying we don't know who's grading the. Who's grading the cards. That's been one of my biggest complaints too. Like, if I'm a grading company for better or worse, I think I would be, like, flexing who my graders were. Because if I'm not flexing who my graders are, then who are they? Who are they? Absolutely. You nailed it, Jeremy. You nailed it. And that's what people want, is a transparency. It's. It's not that we think we're better or anything like that. We want you to know so we can open the door. So when we're at the national or wherever we're at, we can talk to you. And when you're able to do that, you get better results. And that's just the way it works. I've had my team teeth cut. I've heard so many things. And you just. That's the way it goes. You have to learn and listen to the people in the industry that are keeping it going. Because at the end of the day. I'm not submitting the cards. I'm not doing that. So why can't. Why would I sit back and act in a godlike fashion as we're doing this? And you're going to just take it. So, you know, it's. It's a big deal to us that Eric Pugh says Chad is pure class. Ziggy no. Says authenticating. Authenticating is huge. Applaud you for doing it. Is there a guarantee? We. I think we've talked about that already. Chad Shipper jumped in, kept on hearing his own name. What's up, Chad? Good to see you, buddy. Situational says, I found it interesting, the positioning of the dealer and their model of grading to sell disappearing and GCC trying to give them a new solution to this issue. Guys, we're in a. We're in a time in the hobby. We talked about this at the very beginning, where we're at, where no. The grading companies cannot keep up with the demand. This is not a PSA problem. It's. It's not a tag problem. It's not a. What's it called? Sgc. Beckett. This is a systemic issue in our hobby, and all the grading companies would love to be able to meet the demand. They just. They just can't. And we want them to, but if we want them to do it quickly, we're going to get an inferior product. Seems like the. A lot of people in the hobby just are. Are willing to settle for inferior, and that's sort of disappointing, but go ahead. David, I'm gonna have to take off in a second, but I just wanted to say, you know, us, as hobbyists, we're very skeptical of anybody coming into our industry. I feel like maybe we've been burned by a couple of companies before, and it makes it where we get very, like, intense and very skeptical against anybody that's coming in. But what we have to do is we have to welcome new companies coming into the industry, because that's really, you know, this is why we've made PSA into such a huge company that nobody can compete with. Right. Is that we're just not allowed. We didn't welcome tag in. Right. And sometimes where we'd be very skeptical, welcoming any grading company in because we don't know them yet enough yet. And maybe it's okay to let our guards down a little bit to allow some companies to try to help things out in the industry, especially when right now we're bogged down with PSA. And because so many people are submitting low dollar cards only to try to gem mint 10 them and this is the kind of company that can hopefully free some of these ways to be able to allow our cards to be graded a little bit faster if people are doing this with a lot of bulk items. So just wanted to kind of go off by saying that. Love you both. Nice meeting you, Chad and I love you. Chat. Talk to you guys later. Cheers, Chase. Bye, David. All right, thank you, David Chase for joining for the first half of the show. Let's continue with some more comments here. Chad, unless you had any response to what David just said. Oh, just appreciate it. Dave's great. It's great hearing that. And you know you have new. This is a great world. Right. And to get into this world you need to have a heat shield. You can't just be, you know, walk in here without getting some fire. And I understand that. So I appreciate all the support and understanding that comes with it. But yeah, David's great. Absolutely. Well, yeah, Tony here says David Chase is the, is the real player. The wrestling card here said I like the idea of grading levels compared to the 1 to 10. That is an innovation I think that we haven't really seen before. So something to think about if nothing else. Just think about it guys. You don't have to like it. That's the thing. Chad isn't here to, to win everybody over. He knows he's not going to and we're he, he's here to. I wanted to talk more about the industry and things going on. I still have another video to share to get your thoughts on Chad and the chats but let's keep on rolling here. Miria, Mimi here says I have seen re I have seen sellers with GCC cards on whatnot. He's they say goes on to say what's the submission process? Where can we learn more? Let me, let me really. No, before I, I, I'll show your website in a second, Chad, but before I do that I want to play this video because otherwise I have to change what I'm sharing. So guys, I'm going to play another video here for, for all of us and just give this one a listen and then we'll get your thoughts on this one, Chad. So one sec everybody. We're going to play this video. There we go. I'm going to take the comment off the screen and I'm going to go find the video. Here we go. Take off mute. Okay, watch this guys. It's only 48 seconds long. I just got in this thousand dollar BGS5 first edition LeBron James rookie card. And today we're going to restore it. As the BGS upgrades show, this card is almost perfect. With the exception of this lift on the left edge. This edge is going to be our main focus today. So after getting a tiny bit of residue that I saw off the bottom of this card, we're gonna go straight at it. First, we dampen the edge with the dragon's breath technique and then wipe off any excess moisture that we may have created. After the card is soaked in a little bit of moisture, we're going to go at it with a roller tool right away. Then we're going to use our crease tool for 10 to 15 minutes. As I'm sure you guys know, LeBron's card market has gone up an insane amount these last few months. So it's important that we treat this card with a lot of care. And after using the bone tool for about 10 minutes as well, we're going to throw this card in the clamps for 72 hours. And after 72 hours in the clamps, this card looks absolutely amazing. And that edge lift is almost entirely gone. How do you guys think that we did today? Do you think we should have left it in the slab or do you think it was worth restoring? I just got in this thousand. All right, so there, there's that. Now I, I raised this chad because it really makes me wonder just, you know, how, how, first of all, how egregious is what we just saw? Does that bother people? And how, and if it is bothersome, and if the grading companies want to deter that behavior and do it by identifying that it happened to a card. Like, is it possible how many of our cards are, are restored like this? How, how serious of a problem is that? And, and is it a problem? Like, let's hear from the chat. Would you, would you be sad or disappointed or frustrated to learn that the card you bought was a BGS5 that was broken out and got, you know, worked on with these various tools for 15 minutes with this tool, 10 minutes with that tool. Put some spray on there to, to, to soften it up. Like, I don't, I know the reason. Even in the intro to the show, I said, when I was talking about Mr. Minty who uses 100 substance free pre grading supplies, I said, it's important to note those are, that Mr. Minty is 100% substance free because we're going to watch something that isn't 100% substance free with whatever products this guy was using on that video. So Chad, let's get your thoughts on that, on that whole thing there. Chris McGill has entered the back room. Chris, you want to just jump in and join us and be on. He's ready. Let's bring. First of all, Chris, please meet Chad. Chad, please meet Chris. Say hi. Great to meet you, Chad. Hey, Chris, you too. All right, Chris, we'll let you hang out here. Chad, your thoughts on what you just saw? You know, it's, it's a great conversation. Restoration because it's really not accepted in our industry with sports cards yet. So something like that. You know, I read a comment in the chat which is it's non color added restoration. Restoration, you know, stop making a big deal. They're not hurting the integrity of the card, but it's a process that's not really accepted and is deceiving. So there's two sides to that. Are you helping the card and adding anything to it? No. And in painting, in art, we all know that that's acceptable and you can buy restoration and it, it's, it's not frowned upon whatsoever. Experienced it with coins restoration, same thing is an acceptable meter to that. But in sports cards there is not. So we as companies have to get together and figure out how we're going to, you know, lack of a better word, combat against it or identify it. And that, that can be a very tough thing. Oh, for sure, Absolutely. Okay, I'm going to go to. Thanks for sharing your thoughts on that. And listen, I, I don't know. Like it's. And there's comments in the chat like it's happening. We're buying cards that are, that are restored. We just don't know it. And what can you do? Like, like someone even made the comment that the people doing this are, are more skilled than the grading companies are, which is almost an unfair comment because how can they detect it if it's undetectable, if nothing has really changed. It's a tough situation. And I wonder if eventually will a lar. Because there's already a faction of the hobby that is okay with restoration and, and other. Not just restoration, but even slight alterations. There are people that are okay with that and I wonder if that. If that group of that cohort will grow as time goes by either because they just don't care because they know they can't figure it out one way or the other, which is like a whole other thing. That's a whole other topic for another another day. But I think it's definitely something that, that we should be thinking about. This should potentially Be on our radar. Okay, I'm just gonna. Quickly Chad, go bring up the GCC website. Which is what? GCC, GCC Sports. What is it? GCC grading.com. okay, I just want to show it to people so they can have a look because there is, there are people in our chat tonight who are, you know, interested in what you're doing and you know, some of the, the more open minded, maybe less critical group. So here's guys, just in case you're interested, here's GCC grading.com global collectibles consulting and you can kind of come, come in here and see what the services are, what the price points are. And you know, it's not just cards, they're doing banknotes as well. So again, gcc.com there's some. What does it cost to get one card appraise assessed by you guys? I mean if you just had one card it can cost $12. So as low as $12 for just one single card. We're not going to hit you with a big fee because you got one card. Okay. And there's an about page. Meet, this is Chad. Guys, you can read more about Chad here on the about page. His professional background, his phone number, maybe it's an office number, I don't know, email address book, a consultation. So look, look, I think if nothing else, like I'm with the group of people in the chat that are, you know, glad there's people innovating in the hobby, trying new things. We are in an interesting place right now and offering a service here. So check out GCC Grading if you want. Guys, we can kind of leave that there. Chris, you know, there's a whole bunch more comments I want to get to, but I'm just curious if you've been watching so far, would you have any thoughts on tonight's discussion? Maybe. I've got a question instead for Chad. Is that okay? Yeah, absolutely. Chad, I'd love to know more about what you see is the 1 year, 5 year, 10 year roadmap for GCC. Where do you see you guys going in the near medium and long terms? I just see us continuing to add value across the whole spectrum. So I expect us to grow within this pocket that I mentioned and see it expand and see cards. I see us helping other companies alleviate the issues we see today. So I just expect it to grow into that nice lane that doesn't exist and then that lane from there is going to continue to grow with our team and what we're doing. So it the lane's starting to be built as. You could just say the asphalt's getting laid down. So we're ready to roll and there's a bright future ahead. Do you want to stay more boutique and niche and focused, or do you want to scale and become gigantic eventually? Oh, I think it'd be great to scale. That's the idea. We just don't want to penalize customers right now. And where we have this solution, you, you have to maintain a low fee for what you're trying to provide. So as that grows, we're currently, right now I'm working on some developments to, to just move that product into that future lane that I see it in. So right now we're going to accommodate that. We're going to work with how that fits with other encapsulation companies like I mentioned, with the semi rigid and then take it from there. So I, I look forward to what we'll be able to do as this area in the hobby grows. Cool, man. I, I wish you the best of luck. I think it's so interesting that businesses like yours are taking root and sort of like, you know, filling in gaps that, that people obviously have a, have a demand and there's a need for it. So, you know, I'm so interested in the business side of it in addition to the product side of it. And I wish you guys the best luck. I'll definitely be following your journey. Awesome. Thank you Chris. Really appreciate it. Let us know if you have any questions. Really appreciate your support. Very nice, Chris. Thank you. Mookie Chilson said Chad what are you charging? Turnaround time all on the website Ziggy no said did you submit your company to the contest at the national have you charged Jeremy? Appreciate that Ziggy yeah, I don't enter the inferno is for companies that are not quite as as far ahead far along quite as as GCC is. These guys have been in business for, for 18 months already. But appreciate that comment Ziggy Caffeine and cardboard says I really bought into Jeremy's views. I've really bought into Jeremy's views on upcharges. I'm not grading cards but I'm happy to take the warranty that comes with the graded card and if I do buy one, I'm not kidding about that. I really do Jim Define says Jeremy I disagree. I processed customer deposits for decades. Not being able to handle volume demand is not an option. Bad production management capacity management is not acceptable. That's okay Jim to disagree but I, I disagree with you. I think that, think about it this way, Jim, you open up an ice cream store on your local corner and all of a sudden you have the best ice cream and it's the tastiest. And all of a sudden you've got 10,000 people lined up and your max capacity is 100 customers a day. Is that bad? Production management, Capacity management. I mean, they, you know, there are constraints. In any business, there are constraints. And if you were in business for decades, you must have seen some constraints that were, that were challenging. Now, listen, they don't want to be where they're at, but they also can't find graders fast enough. People don't want to sit there and grade cards for 10 hours when they all look the same or feel the same. You know, it's, it's not, it's, I wouldn't do it. And when they get a good grader, now the great. Now the grader can find a way to make more money just buying and selling cards. Like, I don't envy their position. So I, I, I just. Jim, I think I hear your comment. I think it would apply to many industries. I just think it's inapplicable to ours if we're asking for the impossible. Literally the impossible. And if they would have seen it coming. Well, what if it doesn't come? You know, they're not, they're also not Nostradamus, so Diamond Relics says. I have a feeling it's mostly not detectable. He's talking about the, the restoration and like comic grading will become mostly acceptable and unavoidable. That's where I was going. I wonder if it will become more acceptable in the future. Whitney Living Life says I would like information on gcc. I'm not a collector per se, but have cards I need to TAV graded. I'm new to the industry. Well, welcome to the industry, to the hobby. Whitney Living Life. And Jim define says I respect Chad for being here, knowing there would be kickback. Agree or disagree, the discussion is key to improvement and is necessary. And like most comments Jim Define puts in the chat. I certainly do agree with that one right there. And so many more comments coming through the chat. Thank you all for all of them. Okay, let me just get myself caught up here. Oh, how I forget if I. Even if you answered the and sorry if you answer this already to me, Chad, but how has, how has it been received so far? I think we did. I think you did answer that question already, did you not? Yeah, it's been received very well. Yeah, it's been great. Been great. We've Seen a lot of sales, they're increasing by the month. So customers and sales are moving up by the month. It's, that's what we wanted to see. And to be honest, you know, at this point we seen more people moving the toward us than we really expected just after 18 months. So it's been tremendous. Good to hear. Good. The collection firm says transparency are. Sorry. Transparency and intent are what matter. I salute. Chad I, I love that comment. Transparency and intent are very, very important. I agree, I agree completely with that comment. David and Patriot Sports Cards. Jeff Hart, my buddy, says I can see restoration becoming more acceptable at some point in the future, but not alteration. Yeah, that's where I'm, that's where I, I can see that as well, Jeff and, but time will definitely tell as it goes by. Chris Hoage I had a thought on this restoration topic. Yeah. A question really more than anything, but the thing that pops into my mind is what impact would the acceptance of restoration, even limited restoration? To Jeff's point, maybe even not. Some things are still off limits. Some are. But what would be the impact of that on population reports and on the idea of there's only so many cards in X condition available? It's like, to give some, like a really concrete example, let's say that, you know, a pretty liberal amount of restoration becomes mainstream and the 52 tops mantle goes from having a PSA 10 population of 3 to a PSA 10 population of 300. And maybe we don't care about that because those three PSA 1052 tops mantles are owned by people who are absurdly wealthy and have great collections and we won't cry any tears for them. But you can scale that example down to the level of cards, to any level of cards where the, where the pop matters, where, you know, if a card is like a pot is pop 500 and that's meaningful to people and that creates a level of rarity and a level of float and supply. From there being only 500, that, that has an equilibrium with the demand and all of a sudden it goes from 500 to 1500. You know, doesn't that have real, a real domino effect on the market? Doesn't that really shake up supply and demand equilibrium to the extent to which condition and grade impact the market? So I, I wanted to put that out there as a question. Go ahead, Chad. Yeah, I think that we, you need to have an encapsulation service being the ones behind the restoration. Chad's. Chad, try to just talk a bit louder. If you don't Mind? Yeah. You need to have the encapsulation service be behind the restoration service, because similar to what they did with coins, they did this and it gets trusted. There's a process as a professional route to it and how it's done, it's done by professionals that are known. They have the expertise in the background. So, you know, if you're going to do it, what we witnessed was great, but it doesn't. It may not come with the trust behind it. It may show you a great result and then that pop report that matters. That's why I say that, because if you're going to have an effect with a lot of material moving that way, you know, it can be detrimental to. To sales later on. Like Chris mentioned, if you just uptick the amount of tins because you're allowing a certain method of restoration, you can't do that. So you have to think about what one does and another doesn't. You can't just let one in and not another. So, you know, color added. You see these things, we used to differentiate them between repairs and restoration. So there's repairs, which is not very high quality work, but you got the job done. And then there's restoration that is basically not detectable. So even experts that are. It's very hard for them to detect it. They. They may not be able to see it as well. And then people who don't grade or the novice don't detect it at all. That becomes professional. So I think this is a movement that we're seeing now because everything's growing so tremendously and their assets, so people want the most out of their money or most out of their collectibles. So you just have to come together as a unit, all of us, to figure out who's going to do this. Are there any people in the industry that do it? And then what's the next phase for that? Because I think it's great that you could have a card that's a old Honus Wagner, who knows what it is, and you could restore it so that you can enjoy that card. You know, if you're not hurting the integrity of the card, that's different. If you're adding a bunch of pieces to it and it's not the same, you know, fundamental piece, then it changes things. So those, all those rules need to be, you know, defined and that takes a lot of time. And our industry is just starting with that. You mentioned, you know, we should. We all need to come together. Chad, I think that is. That's like a utopia that we're not ever gonna get to. We are never gonna have consensus in this hobby on anything. So we have to navigate the waters to serve a different market within the overall market, no matter what product or service you are offering. And that's why new companies are like your own other new companies. We're going to be hearing pitches from three tech companies at the national during Enter the Inferno on Saturday on the main stage. I mean there's, there's just. As the industry grows, evolves, matures and it is happening, I call it industry. It's a hobby, it's an industry. Call whatever you want. You know what I'm, you know what I mean? We are going to see more entrepreneurs trying to launch businesses in this industry because as much as it is a hobby, it is also an industry and there is a lot of money in this industry waiting to be spent by people to make their, their experience better, to remove friction, to enhance experiences, products, all these different things. So we have a really good question here from Please don't eat me queso. And it says, Chad, surely you saw the fakes in China. PMG is very big in Shanghai. If currency, a government regulated facet that has death penalties in China for counterfeiting, if currency aren't, if currency is, if currency is being counterfeited, aren't cards doomed with fakes? I think that I, I think, yeah, to, to distill it down, he's basically saying are there going to be more and more counterfeit cards coming out of places like China as time moves forward and how is that going to impact the hobby and the confidence in the cards that are out there and the confidence in the grading companies, whether it's PSA or GCC or, or the small regional companies, their ability to, to identify these counterfeits. Can you speak to, to the evolution of counterfeiting in currency, which is where one of your expertise, Chad, never mind just sports cards, but as it applies to sports cards, please, yeah, the, the technologies involved in counterfeiting, there, there's all kinds of them. The more something becomes collectible, the more it gets counterfeited, including the holder. So sports cards are on that way. So once Pokemon entered sports cards, like anything else, the more it grows, the more people try to seize that opportunity with the money. So it goes back to that transparency of who are your experts, who are, who are, who's looking at these items because you know, AI can do this and that and you have certain things you have in place to identify certain counterfeits, but there's always going to Be that element that is decept, deceit, deceptive, and will get past that. So you need to have experts just in place. That's, that's all there is to it. And you have to combat that. The more you grow, the more more you see it. So I saw it grow tremendously with pmg. We had fakes and even the People's Republic of China, that was an area that I had to personally work in to basically get a handle on so we could stop the influx of counterfeits being submitted. So when we saw that die down, we knew we were getting it right. You're seeing things that get submitted. So it's going to happen a lot in our industry. So grading companies need to be ready for it. It's going to be tough. I mean, we talk about counterfeits all the time and we, the hobby, I don't mean here, me and us, but, you know, we, the hobby, talk about them all the time. And what we always don't consider when talking about counterfeits are the ones that have never been identified yet by anybody. The counterfeits that are, that are among us. And I'm speculating, because if, if they've never been identified by anybody, that includes myself. And so I'm speculating, but I think we'd be naive to think that there aren't unidentified, unknown counterfeits floating around the hobbies. There could even be an 86 FLIR Jordan or 79 OPICI Gretzky or whatever, the, whatever the very, you know, liquid valuable card would be that has counterfeits that haven't been identified. They're too good. What, what are the, what's the chance of that being real and true, Chad? I mean, how, how many Otani counterfeits have we seen? Does his card sell for any money? Have anybody checked, you know, this is a new card, new guy. It's, it's like, have we seen any. They're out there, you know they are. So when a card hits, any kind of collectible, hits the market like this, especially with as many variants as we see, you're going to see altered variants, you're going to see added low serial numbers. There's all kinds of these things out here. So you have to have that verification. Even back to the. I'd say the manufacturers would want to get a hold on this with Tops, Panini, any of these manufacturers having a way to identify these cards in your checklist. You know, when we were kids, you get the little checklist and you knew this card was part of the set. But if something ended up in there, you know, that's not part of the set, or it's an error card, it's not part of the checklist, it got in here, things like that. We know those exist. So I think now you really need to make sure that you're doing that woot with the manufactured rarities, if you will, and then what we're going to face. But yeah, they're out there, you know they are. Yeah, I, I kind of assume they are too. Thanks for tuning in and being a part of the sports cards live community. Don't forget to like subscribe and most of all, keep collecting more great content to come. Sports cars is a lifestyle.