TCG Take Over | Is winter coming | Buying strategies

Welcome back to the Hobby Chop Podcast. This is the podcast for the people I am Big Ken. He is not. Zip. Zip. Actually called out sick tonight. Called in sick tonight. So super excited to get my guy Corey from Bigger Than Cardboard to be able last minute to. To help me out and, and jump on. Corey, how are you doing tonight, man? I'm great. Thanks for having me, Ken. I appreciate you thinking of me. Of course. Yeah, I was excited you answered the phone. Most people don't when you call them or what 30 minutes before I'm going live. I'm not. Not many people are going to answer the phone when I call, so. Good man. Happy to be here. So last time you were on my podcast, it was all about Collect for Good, right? And now we're. If you're on YouTube looking behind them, you see Bigger than Cardboard. So why don't you tell us what that is before we jump into the episode tonight. Sure. Appreciate, Ken. Yeah, just, just basically a rebranding of Collect for Good. The reason we were called Collect for Good and now Bigger Than Cardboard is because we believe that we can use the hobby for things beyond ourselves on our own. You know, fun collecting, fun finances, etc, to do good in the world. And I know you share that same sentiment. And so we give a portion of every dollar that comes through our doors, both at our local store as well as on our whatnot streams and other online media to. To benefit a charity especially we focus on one locally that is aimed at ending homelessness and at Travis Doodles. And that's. It's called Worth and Purpose. And so we do a lot of work with them, as you know. So that's the main one. And then we also have started supporting another one that helps underprivileged kids learn how to kind of make their way through the ranks in sports. So there's. We've got two now. We added a second one since we added Bigger Than Cardboard. Bigger Than Cardboard is a conglomeration now of multiple channels rather than just our one women's sports channel. So we've grown to three channels and yeah, we can do more with more. So we're excited about it. And channels. I know, it's whatnot, right? They're all. It's all, well, whatnot. But I was thinking more like, you know, kind of hobby channels, meaning we have a local card shop, we have whatnot, you know, we have all our. We have our website now that is launched and as we are populating every single day with new singles product. So yeah, multiple streams of places to to acquire cardboard. You know, you can go anywhere on Instagram, Facebook, YouTube, and you're going to hear people talking about how they make money in the hobby. It's all about how, how much and how I made money. But very rarely do you hear people talking about, this is what I'm giving back to the, you know, this is what I'm taking from the hobby and giving, giving to someone in need or, you know, those types of things. So, yeah, that's. That, that's awesome. That, that, that is definitely awesome. And it's the opposite side of that. Right. It's the complete, you know, we. To have fun. Right. And it's nice if you're able to support people who may be less fortunate. Absolutely. Yeah. And, and, you know, it's been fun to have some of those less fortunate people also love a hobby. Right. We've given thousands of cards away and on top of, you know, financial support, you know, direct financial support, and they love it. It brings joy to them, too, just like it does anybody else. Right. And it's harder for them to attain their things that we are able to buy and sell every day. And so it's, it's also that, that part of it, too, that I didn't even think about when we first started doing this has been a lot of fun. Great. And that is awesome. So I know, I know you're just, you know, 30 minutes out where you're coming in, and I tell you what we're talking about tonight, but I think, I mean these topics, and I, I pick, I pick topics because I know people are going to be in the chat. So. And I'm hoping to get answers from, you know, outside of my little area in the northeast. And it's great. I know you're down in Florida, so it's, it's great just having this conversation with you as well as, you know, the, the people from the chat who will be chiming in. Pokemon tcg, Right. Yep. I, I got back into the hobby in 2020, and I know. And this, this is really dating myself. I know I had bought Pokemon kids from his cards for my kid. I can remember going to the hobby store in the 90s and buying these packs of cards for him. And then one day, the packs weren't even close, weren't even open. He was done. They were done. They were off to doing something else. So I boxed all his cards up and I put them away. Well, of course, you know, all those years later, get back into the hobby, and I'm like, wait a minute. I'VE got these cards. I pulled them out. I made a fortune on those cars, right? Put them out at shows and sold them. Once I. Once they were done, they were done. And. And it was interesting because there were only, like, a couple Pokemon dealers in the room, right? It was all sports cards. There was a couple Pokemon people, and you could tell it was like a market that was. Was building. But, you know, it. It took. And I. And I want to say. And if you remember this, you can correct me. I want to say it kind of took off in like, 20, 21, 20, 22. And then it cooled off, right? And then all of a sudden it came back. And when it came back, it really. It just never stopped surging. Right. Go ahead. Were you gonna say something? No, go ahead. And I was letting you finish your thoughts. So in. In our area here, and I'm gonna fast forward up until right now, like these last few months, it. It just seems like the. The. The tables at card shows now that are. Are predominantly. I want to say tc. I want to say Pokemon, but tcg, because I know there's. There's, you know, other. Other things mixed in there. But like, a lot of shows I'm going to, they're. I would say 60, 70% TCG to the sports now, where it was probably 95, 5, you know, a few years ago. Do you see that in your area? And do you see them pushing the sports cards, you know, these local shows, just taking over these local shows completely? So I think one. I would say we are show promoters as well. So just like you, we have a. We have a show coming in a couple of weeks, and ours, we work hard to keep it at a, you know, at a 60, 40 sports cards versus Pokemon. This time, without us even trying, it's about 75 sports, which. Which was surprising to me because in the shop on a daily basis, I would say 80 of the people that come in that want to sell or buy are. Are Probably Pokemon, maybe 75%, and the rest are sports cards. Now, obviously, the sports card guys generally are guys that are, you know, collecting. They're in the hobby, and they have probably some more money to spend. You know, a lot of kids and stuff for Pokemon, but, you know, families and adults as well. In the TCG stuff, you know, there's One Piece and Lorcana and Magic. Those are all other TCGs that are also very popular. Well, what I've seen here is the promoter really decides and drives how much of it is going to be sports. We set up at a show Last weekend I would say 30, 25 was TCG and the rest of it was sports. But that was intentional by the promoter that we know versus random shows especially. It seems Orlando is close proximity to us that shows some. It was in Tampa. Go to Orlando does seem to be higher percentage of tcg. And then of course there's just shows every weekend that are 100% TCG. So it is 65 to 70% of the hobby right now. Just in general and local locally to you like show show wise, like on a Saturday or Sunday. How many, how many local shows will you have going on generally in the state, like drivable. So call, call it from, you know, central Florida to South Florida, there'll be three to four. Yeah. Sometimes two, sometimes five. But it's generally, you know, three or four in, in that drivable. Three within three, three and a half hour drive from us. Yeah, three and a half hour drive. How about within 45 minutes? Well, 45. So there's usually one and potentially one in each major city. Each, each Tampa, Orlando. Yeah, there won't be more than one in, in town. The promoters have learned their lesson. They cannibalize each other when they do that. So there's usually just one per weekend. Yeah, and, and I think that's part of what, what we see here, especially in Connecticut, late. And I talked about Sunday. There was five shows going on Sunday, you know, all within, you know, probably 30 to 40 minutes of each other. Right. So and, and I, and I think, oh, where are you? And I think what happens is that, you know, promoters are like, look, I, I put the show up, I have to, I have to sell. Oh, and zittle bug card says six. There were six shows. I have, I have to sell these tables. So I'm just going to sell them to whoever, you know, whoever is going to come in and take them as a promoter, I mean that's their job to sell tables. And I mean it's also to make it a great experience not only for the dealers but for the people attending. But in order for that to work for him, he needs to sell the tables. And that's what I think is happening now. But it, but it, when I see that, and correct me if I'm wrong, my first thought is if there's that many TCG dealers selling, is there that many people buying? Like do we have more people selling than buying at these shows? Or, or there's just as many people buying as there is selling. I my again, this is all just my anecdotal Opinion. But generally, you know, the. One of the fun things we get can and being in the hobby is that we're on the front lines doing this every day. Right. And so we can see the changes that happen on a dime before we get data to back up what we're saying. A month ago, if you would have just come into Central Florida and said, I'm doing a show, it's a hundred tables, come one, come all. Whoever wants to buy them, let's go. High probability you would sell out if you had, you know, connectivity with all the dealers, but high probability that would be 80 plus percent TCG that in the past month has seemed to slide more in favor of sports. Again, anecdotal, but that is kind of what I've seen. And I just wonder. We haven't gone down this road yet, but I wonder, I think we're going to get there. What the impact that the PSA topic has on TCG as much as anything. And I'll tell you another thing that's been absolutely bananas the past week in TCG when we get there. That has been, again, a front lines thing. You wouldn't know because it's, it's forward looking, not, not backward for data. So that's just a. I'll just pause there and I'll, I'll tell you what that thing is in a little bit if you want. Cliffhanger. Well, we're not here to talk about tcg, so. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Well, I, no, I mean, we're here to talk about anything, right? Yeah, we. And, and I'm just gonna welcome in some of the people here. Ziggy. No welcome in Zwittlebug cards. He asked how big are the shows in Florida? Table perspective. So when you, when you're looking at his show about how many tables, I would say average table is a hundred, 100 ish. 100, 150 is probably an average show. But we do have, I'd say every other month a 3 to 400 table show. Like this past weekend was that bigger show. When we run one, it's 140 tables. I'd say that's probably in the average. There's definitely some smaller ones that run. And you know, again, every other month there's a three to 400 table show on one coast or the other. And, and your show's been crazy. Like, I talk about the shows up here that probably from January. And, and you know what? You have to think too. And I've been saying this, you have to think at some point these shows are going to slow down because the weather got nice. I mean, in Florida, the weather's always nice, right? It's always hot, right? It's always sunny. So it's not like in the Northeast where, you know, in the winter you're cooped up and because it's cold and there's nothing going on outside. And then all of a sudden, you know, spring hits and there's lacrosse and, and baseball and all kinds of sports going on, kids off playing and, you know, it really slows down the amount of foot traffic, you know, that comes in. And then I think once school is out, right, in the summer, people start on vacations and things like that. I mean, probably, I mean, at some point too, like it doesn't happen to me, but I, I mean, I would have to think it's 85 degrees. You want to go to the beach or you want to go to a card show, you know, like that type of thing, or a picnic or, you know, just a lot more things happening here in the Northeast that, you know, may, may slow, slow the foot traffic down. But have you seen the craziness, like right through the winter in Florida? And is it, is it still crazy? Is it. You see signs of it slowing down? Do you see it staying, you know, super busy? So again, front lines kind of view. Up until two weeks ago, it was elbow to elbow at every show. Last weekend was one of the bigger shows in Tampa, runs quarterly, and it was crickets. You know, we sold more to dealers than, you know, we didn't have any. We didn't really have a lot of non dealer business at all. And it's a big show and so, you know, it triggered me to start looking and, you know, really digging in and what, what kind of signs are we looking at here and, and what's going on? So that said activity of the shop is up in the past three or four weeks. Yeah. So that's kind of weird. Yeah, interesting. And I, I see Peterborough said in the chat that in the UK, 80% TCG and the bigger shows are 60, 40. I'd say that follows. And that tracks exactly what we're saying. Peterborough. That's what I would say too. If you let it go, TCG would try to take over. But 60, 40 is probably right generally for the past year. And here we go. We're gonna, we're gonna give it another try this week. Uno mas? Yeah, you got it this time. He said he searched Paris and barely found any soccer stickers, cards, but definitely found tcg. That's interesting. Yeah. That makes sense. It's probably similar in Asia, I would think. Yeah, yeah. But you would think Europe with the, with the, the World cup just picking up that soccer would be crazy right now. Well, but the, the sports card hobby in Europe is nothing like it's been in the US Historically. Right. So it's just now where it's got a lot of traction and shows are. Are heavy and. Yeah, it's interesting, though, because I don't. I. I mean, I don't think it's. I, I want to say. And I want to say this, right? I don't want to get bashed here, but there's so many people, so many people warning, like, don't. Don't get left holding a soccer card. You know, like video after, real after. You know, don't do this and don't do that and don't buy before and sell the cards before and don't be holding them and don't think you're going to sell them out. I mean, there's just so many things, and I think people who don the soccer market are just like, you know what? It's too much. I'm just gonna stay away. Like, I'm not gonna. Unless you really know what you're doing and you jump in. Like a lot of people. Like a lot, a lot of people. If you've been in the hobby long enough and you thought to yourself, hey, I'm. I'm gonna capitalize on this, like, World cup coming. I'm gonna buy some soccer cards. Just, just the people I know, right? The people I think who could be liquid and, and then hold them and try to sell them at a certain point, you know, sometimes that works, but sometimes you get burned, right? So then you don't want to do it again. And if you see the signs coming on something, if you're like me, you're like, you know what if I don't know enough about, I'm going to stay in my lane. Like, I'm not gonna, you know, I had soccer cards here that I think I had from three years ago or four years ago or for whatever the last time there was a lot of soccer that I got stuck with that I just threw in a box, and now I've taken them out now and hope they sell. But, you know, it's. I, I think a lot of people feel that way. So setting up at shows where I am, people are like, I'll have a couple soccer cards and it's not what they're looking for. And they'll be like, well, do you have any more soccer? No. Do you know anybody else selling soccer? And then you'll see people coming in with these massive soccer cards like, oh, are you buying here? You want to buy this massive soccer card? I'm like, I am not your guy for that. Yeah, yeah. No, I have seen it, and I think part of it has to do with the World cup, but I think part of it is. Is actual growth in the soccer card market. I think there's a. They're colliding a little bit more maybe than four years ago, because I think, you know, if you get on whatnot. As an example, there are UK streamers running all the time, and they are full. Those rooms are full of people in soccer breaks. Yeah. And when we walk around here, I would say there's general. There actually is more soccer than there is wnba. I can tell you that all the time here. But it makes sense in Florida. Soccer's huge here. A lot of South American influence and so. And European. And you can play all year. All year. No, that's any sport. I mean, that part. We won't even go down that rabbit hole. That's a whole nother thing. Yeah. Every sport is played all year in Florida. And, you know, from the time you're six, if you're not playing 24 hours a day, seven days a week, 365 days a year, you're getting left behind here. So. Yeah. That much competition, right? Yeah. Oh, yeah. In every sport. Yeah. And they. And they tell the kids up here in the Northeast, play a sport every season. Like, don't. Don't play the same sport. Right. Play a different sport. That's how I grew up. Right. In Maryland, I played every sport. I lettered in three sports in high school. Yeah. But it's not the same now. Not here, anyway. So, anyway, we want to burn our kids out. Yep. Get left behind. I. I have collect for good on here. Collect for good. Making comments in here. Yeah, that's me. I logged in. Yep. Yeah, I. I didn't. I didn't attach the YouTube to the bigger than cardboard. I attached it to sports car, the hobby. Yeah. Zip looks a little different tonight. Zip called in sick tonight. He called out sick. And my man Corey was happy to jump on last minute Homer's sports cards. Loves the huge Sawgrass Mills show. Is that the one you're doing? No, that's the one you guys do? No, they don't do those anymore. But that. That Sawgrass Mills is a. I think when it was built, it might have been the largest or second only to maybe the King of Prussia and then the mall in Minnesota. It was, It's a massive mall. And those shows used to be out of control fun back in the 90s, but they don't do them there anymore. It's been a long time. And you're doing a show in them all this week, this weekend or coming up next weekend? Not this, not not Saturday, but a week from Saturday. Yeah, yeah. And it's funny. I mean we have shows in malls here, but it just seems like a funny place to have a, to have a show. I mean I, I remember, what was it? Debbie Gibson, right. When she started doing them all tours, like everything started after that. Everybody was, was doing something in a mall and then in the malls. I mean around here most of the malls are dying, so. Right. That's why we're doing it. Because it's cheap. It's cheap. Good square footage and it's air conditioned with plenty of parking. Right. And people love it. It's. It's been really good. Uno mas? Corey, do you have the Boca Raton show? I haven't done the Boca Raton show. My daughter goes to school there, but I haven't, uh, I haven't set up there. No. We. Probably as close as we get as a Space coast show, which is about 4, 420 tables or so. Yeah, it's not that far from there. Hour and a half, maybe. Hour and a half is probably my, my maximum. You know, driving mostly like just to do a one day show, you know, I wouldn't, I wouldn't put more. Well, the Space coast is a three day or once a quarter, so. Okay. Yeah, it's interesting. You guys have some great shows down there. I thought we were lucky up here, but it sounds like. Yeah, you guys have some big shows. We have some decent ones. Yeah, I think it. But it's the same people kind of, you know, you get to see, you get to know everybody, you kind of know. I'm sure it's the same up there for you guys. Like, you kind of know who's doing what, what dealers have what, what they're, who, who will buy what, what they do with it, you know, all that stuff. Yeah. And I, I think really some of the more successful shows here in the Northeast, there's shows that, you know, or maybe like a hundred tables, but then they cap it. Like they don't try to grow the show. Right. So the show, you know, it gets harder and harder to get a table at the show and the waiting list gets longer and Longer and you know the lines to get in or you know, or the massive line when the door opens to get in, like things like that. So you know shows like that that end up being like the more sought after shows to be go to. Yeah, yeah. I mean Greg's done a really good job. That's my partner and bigger than cardboard with promoting the show for a long time and so it's been kind of the same table count. He's got a long list. I mean really long list. So everybody loves it. It's. It's just a good spot to set up. So to answer your question, unoas, yes there is, I would say there's probably eight or nine soccer dealers at the start space co show if not more. But the regular have, you know, for a year or so. There have been about eight or nine. If you want big soccer cards, you can find them in Florida, that's for sure. Yeah, I would imagine so. You and I both, we actually, our connection began with wnba. Right. And WNBA Cards and, and it's funny, we both had that same strategy, you know, at the, at the beginning when we, when we first met. How, how is your strategy changed? You know, you started and I, and just, and maybe I'll let, I'll let you tell it instead of me telling it for you like, like your, your, your whatnot channel, how you know, what you were doing on there and things like that and, and kind of where, what lane you were in the hobby versus where you're going. Yeah. So I think it'll be interesting conversation to talk about what's changing in real time, just in the hobby and get, you know, you and I to share opinions and kind of talk through that. Which is what I think why we didn't talk about it before we jumped on tonight. So started out building the whatnot channel, doing football breaks with my son and that was really focused on him kind of building something he could do for a career. Quickly realized that it's a lot of fun to do stuff with people that actually collect versus everybody is, is in doing something because they want to be a flipper, which is great. Like it's like you've said you guys talked about last week. There's a great spot for everybody in the hobby and we all need each other. Everybody's. Everybody's different niche or you know, like you said, you can probably wear five different hats of the six categories at any given time. But it's been a lot of fun to build a community. And so I really would say we built a community in women's sports. And the strategy for us was give our community to serve our community better. And in doing that, became about WNBA singles because there was a shortage of print. And we were pretty good, like you were at finding places to get good singles, finding places to get good product. So we did women's basketball breaks. We do that. That's our. Still. Our primary channel is women's basketball breaks. That strategy has not changed. It's still very effective. People still love it. There's still plenty of product. Now I'm, you know, more concerned about too much product than I am about not enough. But strategically, we were. We were ripping cases for a while and grading bigger cards. Caitlin Clark specifically, like most people. And then there was an outlet. So our strategy was. Was. Was rip cases, sell singles on our whatnot channel and keep the big cards and grade them. And those are really the big profit center. And that strategy has vastly changed over the past year because that's not a viable strategy anymore. It's. That's. That's the fun strategy, Right, Exactly. It's all mine. And then I'll sell off what I want to sell off, right? Yeah. And, and, and believe it or not, I mean, you were. Your outlet was on your whatnot channel. Mine was at card shows, right? Same thing. Same exact cases, sending cards off to grading, selling the other cards off and things like that. But, boy, how, how Panini has changed the market in 2025, right? With WNBA with just massive overprinting of cards. And, and, you know, and, And I, I don't want to just say it's only Panini doing that, because I know the people, even on the Topps Chrome football side who got all the connections at the Targets and the Walmarts and the Barnes and Nobles, and they were going in, cleaning the shelves off with these tops. Chrome football product, right? Just emptying them out and just showing up at the card shows and, and upping, you know, you know, just doubling the price or whatever they're putting on there. Now they're stuck with it. Nobody wants to buy it, right? And they realize this stuff was so overprinted, and now these people are stuck with this. They're like, oh, my God. Well, I got so much money invested in the. In these. In these boxes, these, you know, plasters and megas and like, what the heck do I do with them now, right? So now all of a sudden, we're in a situation where they're overprinting the cards, and the only thing that's going to, you know, different differentiate these Cards as if something's going to grade A10. Right. But we really can't send it anywhere. So what do we do? Right? I mean the strategy has to change. Like what, what, what we're doing that, you know, if, if you, especially with the wax, if you're going to rip the wax, I mean you were just saying like I could send that off and get that graded and you can't do that anymore. So, so the strategy, I mean, I guess for the whatnot and what you're doing on there is perfect because you're, you're just ripping and shipping. Right. But for, for anybody else who's, who's on the opposite, who's receiving those cards or buying, buying the, the case themselves or ripping the case. I mean you're kind of stuck with all these singles that you're getting, getting buried on, on like ebay and things like that where people are just, it's a race to zero to sell the cards. Yeah, yeah. I, I think it's interesting how we respond in this scenario in the hobby. What I'm seeing in real time is number lower numbered cards and higher end cards are actually going up and the stuff that you and I are used to doing a lot in where we could get a 10 to 100 card and grade it and you know, 3 to 10x our money obviously doesn't exist right now. And so that's, you know, I don't know how we anecdotally analyze what happens at card shows with that scenario, but I can tell you that our high end stuff all of a sudden both in TCG and on E and sports on ebay has sold like it sat for sat and sat and sat. Now all of a sudden boom. Because it was sitting up there for buy. Now all of a sudden we get offers and it's moving and it was raw stuff, you know, high end like Paige Beckers to 10 autos and you know, Caitlyn Autos and things like that, all of a sudden they moved. And again it could be completely anecdotal, but I think what we're seeing is a shift in people spending the same dollars potentially they would have spent on a hundred ten dollar cards on a few raw, bigger cards and they're just gonna go grade the more expensive ones maybe, I don't know. But that's kind of what it feels like a little bit from what I can tell. Yeah. And especially with the like I had this, I had the same mindset. Right. If there's a card that I want, especially with the what was going on with grading with PSA before they shut it down. Right. Because so many of those cards I sent out, they were all coming back nines. It was hard to get, like it wasn't hard to get tens on cards. And, and I have to clarify this, it was hard to get tens on a Caitlin Clark, on a Paige Beckers. Right on, on a bigger name player. Right. It was like all the other cards. Oh yeah, Malanga, yeah. 10 for you, 10 for, you know, they'll give tens out on all these other ones. But when it came to these higher end cards that, you know, the, the, the, the silver prisms and stuff like that, they all started coming back nines. It's like, and then, then you had the base tens, I mean the base prism and they're all tens, right? But, but the silver prism, they're all coming back nine. I mean it's the same card except for, you know, so it was interesting. So at some point you start saying, geez, if I want that card, I should just go buy it in a 10. Because yeah, if you break it down, okay, I could take 10 of these cards. I gotta buy them or rip them. So it cost me money to acquire these cards. You know, sending them out to PSA at a 24 to a 32A card, shipping them out, I'm waiting three to four months and they're all coming back nines. I mean, I might as well just went out and spent the extra money and bought the 10 and been happy and, and cut out all the other, you know, crap in, in between. And I think that's what's happening with a lot of people. A lot of people I'm talking to, I'm getting messages from people now. It says, hey, what page backers do you have in a PSA 10? Like I'm only in PSA 10s. Let me know what you have, let me know what the price is. And I'm interested. So all of a sudden it's like people are just contacting me saying all I want is a PSA. I don't want a 9, I don't want a raw. I just want a PSA 10. If you have it, I'll buy it from you. So now, I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, I think any of these more popular cards over the last six months to eight months to a year, that, that they were controlling and not giving out a lot of tens. I mean, I think the value is just going to shoot, you know, sky. It's like, I don't want to sell them. I mean, I'm telling people I don't have any. I'm out right now because I don't know where the price is going on that. Right. You don't have any. To the end of July, I'm saying, my God, how is this card only 500, right? Because the previous year Caitlyn car, Caitlyn card was $2,000, but this is only 500. But now this guy just sold it for 450. Buy it now. Like, what was he thinking? You know? So it's like, I don't know. I don't know if I want to sell those cars. They just put them aside for now. And I held all my Caitlyn's right? All The Caitlyn numbered PSA 10s, I held them all. And I'm bringing them to the national this year. I think this would probably be the best, the best time to try to move those for me. Yeah, I think we're gonna get a lot of really good data at the national this year, probably even more than last year or previous years, because I think we're going to see what this effect is. Uno Moss asking, you know, what's the minimum? I don't know if there's a minimum. I think it's more of a what's the spread? Because if you're gonna take a 100 rookie card and send it in and you got to pay $80 to get it back, now you just got to make sure there's a big enough spread there. So I think it's more about what's the upside than it is about what the floor is. I think there's still plenty 100 cards you can turn into 800 cards, but you just have to kind of know what your market is with that specific card. I am also in my head thinking through. I mean, I don't think the hobby's going anywhere. I don't think the hobby is like, you know, we talked meant you mentioned Gary Vee and him saying that the winter is coming. I don't know, man. I don't know. Well, did you hear, did you hear what he had to say? I didn't. You just told me. Yeah, so it was interesting. I mean, I, I know he makes the, he says this and then it almost like he felt like he kind of backtracked a little. But he's. Then he started to say, hey, the people who showed up here to make money in the hobby, you know, that they're, they're going to be moving on. And over the next year we're going to see a correction. We're going to see this, we're going to see that. And the people. Because that the. The being able. The percentages that people are going to make on the card are going to become on the cards are going to be so slim that they're just going to move on to whatever the next best thing is, whatever, wherever they can, you know, start making better money and whether, you know, so. So it was interesting to listen to what he had to say, you know, per se, that I think everybody. Everybody fears it. It's not that you feel it's coming, but I think everybody fears it. If you were there in 2022 and it happened, it. It, you know, especially if you just came in during COVID and that. That was still real. Still feels very real, right? So you don't. When I'm out of shows, I'm like, I do not feel like this is coming. And as I'm preparing for the national and I going the Nationals, preparing for the highest number of people showing up and all this, so it. You don't feel it's coming, then somebody say, says it and you're like, oh, like, you know, it almost. I. I know this may sound morbid. It may. Like, it feels like death, right? Like when somebody talks about death, like, life is great. I'm doing all these great things, and someone says, ah, you're gonna die someday. You're like, oh, God, you're right. I. You know. You know, it almost feels like, like, why'd you have to say that? Like, why'd you put that thought in my head, you know? Because. Because it's. It's a real. It's something real. It's something that. That's happened before. It's something that could happen again, right? Or it happened in many different ways. So, you know, I don't know. It's. It's. It's just interesting. Like, I, I don't think. I know there's a lot of people here just to make money, but I can't. I can't see that many people leaving because they think that the. The making the money is dried up. Because I don't think. I don't ever see making money in this hobby drying up. I. I think. I mean, we could run down a lot of rabbit holes here. And you and I have talked over the past couple weeks because I got a little bit of that fear in me. I think I called you about it, you know, 10 days a week ago. But that as I've. As I've done a bunch of research and really dug in. I, I don't have that fear at all right now. I, I think it's shifting, right. And you have to see where it's going. You know, you kind of have to go where the puck's gonna be and. Yeah, but I think we have to talk a little bit about the psychology of what people are in the hobby for and what the foundational pillars have changed drastically over the past five to 10 years in the hobby, that there's more legs to the stool now. Right. And one of those legs is certainly PSA grading or grading in general, but there is, you know, more than four legs. So you're not one leg getting hot, getting, you know, cut a little short for a little bit of time. I don't think that knocks the hobby stool down. And I think it's interesting to look at, I mean, from my perspective that we do, you know, a significant amount of business on whatnot. When the. We haven't talked about economy either, which is also an effect on, on the hobby. I think people love to have a shot at a big upside. And I don't want to come out and say the G word because we don't want regulation, whatever, but like, when you can spend a relatively small amount of money and have a chance to hit something big in something you enjoy that's attached to a sport or a game that you love, I don't see that changing. That's human nature. And as long as there is an upside to go after, the hobby is totally safe. And I think fanatics and panini figured that out a long time ago. And that's very, very true every day for us. And so the only way, in my opinion, that the hobby really suffers is if the ability to hit a big card for a small amount of money goes away. So if there are no more big cards and people. But, but we're seeing the, in the, and all, all that to say the reason I'm saying all this is because record numbers of million dollar cards are selling every single month, and that number keeps going up and up. And so if that's the case, I don't, I don't see a withdrawal here. But we see record number sales on cards. But we look at the players, what do we see? The most common thing about those players? They're all goats. They're all goats. And, and I think what has happened in this hobby over the last year or two years is the people even like myself, who, who'd been, you know, swinging for the fences all the time, you know, just thinking, prospecting, saying I'm gonna buy that. And you can go back four years of this podcast talking about I'm buying whoever I think anyone's going to be chasing and then I'm gonna sell off the cars before the season starts. Like that. That was my thing, just prospect, prospect, prospect. And I think what's happened in the hobby is people just have gotten tired of that. They've gotten tired of that chasing and hoping and swinging for the fences and losing more than winning. And I think they said, decided, look, if I'm going to be in this hobby, I need to be smarter, right? And I think they started investing more into like, look, I'm just going to start buying Brady's and I'm going to go buying Jordans and I'm going to buy Mickey Mantles and I'm going to buy you. Right? And I think that we've watched that market just continue just to rise and every time we think it's at the, it's I can't go anymore. And next thing you know it's gone even higher. And I think, I think that's the sh. One of the shifts in the hobby is people saying, look, I can't trust run into Target and Walmart or buying hobby boxes and you know, opening up and you know, buying a two thousand dollar tops chrome jumbo NFL box and you know, you're pulling out $250 worth of cards. It's just you do that enough times, you're like, I can't do this anymore. I, I, you know, I could have taken that four or six thousand dollars and bought myself a nice, you know, Tom Brady, you know, tops Chrome or something like that. So yeah, yeah. And I think there's some segment of the hobby that thinks that way, right? And the ones that are have maturity, but I think you can't. One, we do have a large number of new people coming into the hobby. And two, you can't discredit that part of human nature. That one that loves the chase. And again, I think the mature collector and investor is doing exactly what you said. But I think there is a below the iceberg underneath the water amount of the hobby that loves being in the deal, loves being in the chase and we have unlimited access to that now. Yeah, the all the other side of that, I think is that the reason why whatnot and ebay live, but especially whatnot do well is because you're right, instead of paying 800 for a hobby box now and getting 150 worth of cards most of the time or at least a portion of the time that is disproportionate to the spend. You can get into a hundred dollar bet on that same kind of situation through a break and I think that's what a lot of people are shifting a little bit to. Yeah, yeah. Just that, that again, the thrill, the endorphins. Right. Just trying to. Yeah, yeah. And, and I'm, I'm. What I'm saying, I mean I still, I still pick up blasters and mega boxes and. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean I, I'm not, I'm never going to stop doing it. I think the prospecting part of me is always going to be there. Right. But as far as, you know, what I'm doing in the hobby, like my, you know, strategies, they always have to be changing. There, there was a time when I was ripping heavy. Right. Not that long ago where now I'm like, I, I need to take that money and put it into something else that is equally as big as a chase, as ripping a case of whatever I'm ripping. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Good. Yeah. I was just gonna read it, a couple of comments. Vintage card collector bringing more cards but less cash to the national this year. Texas toy trader. A lot of people, they're. Oh, they're still chasing dart. Yeah, absolutely. There's a lot of. Yeah. And you know what's funny? I mean it's kind of a weak draft class too, right? So it wasn't like the year before where there was all these quarterbacks and stuff. So it's easy to sit back and be like, ah, maybe I won't buy that box because there's only one or two cards I could actually get out of that, you know, so that's, that, that, that hurts, you know, the, the tops as well. Vintage card collector. Most advanced mature collectors, especially vintage, are not broadcasting what they do on social media. Yeah, Bill, what's up? Yeah, Bill, my guy Bill loves to rip. And no, I've never seen anybody rip more product than him. That's awesome. And he has all the downtowns to show for it. Oh, it's great. Downtowns this year, man. Be interesting to see how those go. We didn't get, we didn't go on that rabbit hole. But it'd be interesting to see the new downtown. What do you think, do you think on those like the case hits like that, do you think that, that, you know, because they were, we were so programmed for those trying to get those case hits and, and, and we love the way they look Right. I mean is it you still people still going to be chasing you see the, the, you think the value is going to go up on those? I mean on the previous ones, on the licensed ones? Yeah, yeah, I think so. I mean for the right players it's gonna be like anything else, but I think they're going to be the premium rookie to have for sure. Yeah. And, and I think the, you know, a lot of the retired vets that have the Downtowns, I, I'm starting to see that their value is holding better value than, you know, some of the players still currently playing. Sure. Yeah, that makes sense. No, I, I, the unlicensed ones are what I mean it'll be interesting to see how we do because I think Panini did a better job with a lot of their products this year. Now they're unlicensed and some of the cards look really, really nice. But being unlicensed, I mean I just can't imagine the value is going to be there. Yeah. Yeah. 100. It's funny like I, I've been buying you know, cards to bring to the national and I've been buying like a lot of singles cards too just to build the box and going through some of those cars today, seeing those, you know, like, like a, like a, a Panini auto, but it's in a non licensed uniform. It was so funny looking at, at the card and not like, I mean I know I, I bought the card as bulk but I'm just like wow, this they really not as sexy as it used to be. That's for sure. Yeah. Texas toy trader asked any tips for a guy attending the national for the first time? I think that's probably a pretty good thing for us to run through real quick because I was gonna say stay tuned. I was just talking about doing a whole episode on. You should that just, just prepping. Yeah, you should. Yeah. But the best advice that he already just got is buy the VIP pass. Are they already. Yeah, I, I just saw an email came through and I think that just the early admission you can there early admission pass it's not. Oh get that then you don't even need the vip. VIP just gives you autos that nobody really cares about most of the time. I, I just, I didn't, I gave mine all away last year. You want the early access. Every year there's something in that bag that's valuable. I figure out, I figure out a way to make like a hundred or one hundred fifty on whatever comes out of that bag. But yeah, I think and I, I Could tell you it was $149 for the early, early admission for five days. And I think most people buy the VIP just for the early admission, so. Yep, exactly. Uno Ma says, what's an underrated hit for me or you? An underrated hit. I have a good TCG example now, but I don't know, sports wise, I mean, I think it's any for me, it would be underrated hit. You're gonna have to define what you mean by that question. How would you define that candle as an underrated hit? Oh, oh, Bill. Bill's. And why, why you asked that. Bill made a great point. The VIP gives you access to the VIP room. Oh, you don't have that when you're not vip. Oh, yeah. You have to have access to that room. Yeah. Besides the show, that's the second most that in the bathroom. That's the next, the most important. That's right. I would argue that the, the VIP room might be even more important. I'll go outside if I have to for the bathroom, but I want access to that VIP room. I, I, I can tell you I picked up, I don't know if you saw the post I put up that, that Michaela Blake's McDonald's inscription card and, and I can't say enough, and I've gotten so many comments, but I, I said in that post and I thoroughly just, you know, him asking, you know, what's an underrated card? Like, that's the first time in a long time I've been super excited about a card. When I saw that card, I, I was like a little kid again. Like, it just, it brought me back to, you know, just, just earlier in the hobby when I found cards that, that, that I absolutely had to have, you know, for, like, I didn't care what it cost. You know, you look, I looked at it and it fit right into my PC and, and something and a card I didn't even know existed. And when it came up, I was like, super excited. Like, I'm waiting. I watched it every day. It left China. Where did it go? Is here in these places that I couldn't even pronounce right. Like, I haven't been. I buy cards and they show up and I forget I bought them, right. I buy cards and they're in a box. I forget they're, I'm going in. I'm like, oh, my God. Like today I found like a handful of downtowns in a box that were all raw that I totally forgot that I had. I know I bought them for the national, and I threw them in a box. I forgot I had this card. I know exactly where it's been since the day I bought it to the day I got it in my hand. And. And Texas Toy Trader asked, you know, what would you pay to get a card graded? Right? So that's a card for me. I'm gonna send it at the 79 value. There's no reason I should be grading that card at a 70, but I want that card graded. I know it's not going to come back at 10, so I'm not even thinking I'm grading this because it's going to come at 10. I'm going to grade it, and it's going to sit on the shelf here next to all my other inscriptions. Yep. No, I agree with you completely. That's the fun part of the hobby. So underrated card. I think the good. The good response, from my perspective now that you said that, Ken, is. Is a card that you absolutely love that brings you. You know, brings you joy to track it down. Right? We all. Maybe not we all, but I know you and I move in and out of thousands and thousands of cards all the time, and having those ones where you're, like, super excited to get it, where you're checking the mailbox, checking the tracking, you know, that's. That's the underrated stuff. That. That's what matters. So. So, look, we had 10 minutes left. You left us on a cliffhanger at about 10 minutes. We need to cover that, because I know you have a show at 10:15 tonight. I do. It's okay. Yeah. The cliffhanger was. So we were talking about people getting concerned, you know, frustrated with sports. You buy the big box, you get. You know, the interesting reason I think TCG is growing the way that it is because it, you know, that you always hear people say, pikachu can't, you know, tear an acl, right? We are sitting right now in the middle of this insane. I mean, I've never seen anything like it. Ken in the hobby ever run up, and maybe you guys have seen it. I've never been involved in Pokemon, so I have no idea what. This is normal for tcg. But Greg has done a lot. Him and his family have been involved with Lorcana, which is the Disney tcg, for a long time. And when him and I joined forces, I was like, that makes all the sense in the world for us to go deep in this product because we're close to Disney, and, you know, it's. It's playable, and there's a great following for it. So we start buying stuff and I think what has happened is the Pokemon folks that were grading. The reason I'm going through the story is because I think there was a lot of Pokemon folks that were grading cards for Pokemon and the Delta was too small. And then PSA cut out the lower end. So you couldn't grade a ten dollar card and take it to 100 bucks anymore. And all of a sudden, since the PSA shift, there is a particular Lorcana card that was about $1200 two weeks ago. The last seven sales in a PSA 10 are over 15,000. What? Two weeks? Huh. And it's a brand new card that's only been out for six weeks. So I've just never seen a run up in any kind of value like is happening right now in Lorcana. And I believe it is because we've, we've had people that are in TCG already that, that jump from Pokemon over to something else. But that was the, the cliffhanger. For what it's worth, Disney Lorcana is absolutely out of control. I mean, I'm talking like you look at a card ten days ago that was a hundred bucks is now five hundred bucks. Wow. I've never seen anything like it. And so it'll be interesting to see if that turns into something or if that is just a response to money shifting from one place to another. Yeah. I remember when the Loricana product came out, it was like insane. You couldn't even buy it. Like the boxes were selling for like 100 and something or 200. But the resale on those, because you couldn't get those then the resale in the boxes were like you 800, $900 for a box of. It's exactly what's happening with it right now. Yeah, yeah. But it's on set 12, so. Yeah, sure. Well, they've really done 12 sets in probably just a couple years, right? I. I don't think it was that long ago. No, they, they do four a year, so yeah, they're pretty quick. Yeah. So three years. Yeah. Yep. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So. Yep. Interesting, interesting stuff. Learning about TCG from a, from a sports guy. It's interesting. Bill says Pokemon prices are through the roof. He feels it's unsustainable. Vintage card collector. It sounds too good to be true. It probably is. Sell, sell, sell. Family guy. Sell, sell. Yeah. The only thing I would say to kind of cap off a lot of this conversation tonight is, you know, I'm a real estate guy and the sports card market doesn't feel that different to me than the real estate market. Different economic factors, probably with real estate, more predictable. But the adage, I think sell when everyone's buying and buy when everyone's selling plays really well here. And I wonder if we shouldn't all be buying a whole bunch over the next, you know, few months in that stuff. That is, everyone's trying to, you know, kind of getting out of right now. Yeah, yeah. No, you're right. I, I, and I'll tell you for me, because I just don't know when I come back from the national, like, what my next, you know, kind of move is in the hobby. Like, I know, like, I know what my plan is, what I'm going to do, but I don't know, on a bigger scale, my bigger lane is going to be versus I know I'm going to, what I'll be doing, but am I going to maybe start investing in something else or selling something else versus, you know, doing the same thing I've been doing? And, you know, one thing that's nice is, you know, especially that time of year, Right. It's almost like the hobby New Year after the national, right Back, you can, you know, you can reset, you can, you know, make a new plan for the year and then, then move ahead. And, you know, I do that every year. Like, I set goals after the national and figure out what I'm going to do. And the same will be this year, but I think this year, and I'm hoping this year it'll be, it'll be in a position, like you said, to be able to buy when everybody's selling. Yeah. At the right price. Yep. Yeah. So. Well, I appreciate you jumping on last minute. Oh, yeah, absolutely. I appreciate having me. Yeah. It's always good to hang out and catch up. Looking forward to seeing you. And just, what do we say, 50 days now somebody said 50 days to the national. Yeah, it is, it is so funny how every year we all hype ourselves and ramp ourselves up. It is like going to summer camp or whatever as a kid, right. When you're just like, or getting out for Christmas break or vacation or whatever. Yeah. So exciting. So fun. We prepare for it for so many months. Yeah. It's like that vacation you go on every year, Right. And you're so used to it, and you, you make the reservation at the restaurant and you're gonna eat at this place and have that and meet up with all these people. You only get, I mean, how many people you only see once a Year, like, I. I've been going. Now this will be my. My fifth year going to the national, and there's so many people I just see once a year and, and we. We talk, we message, you know, all year long, but you only get to see them once a year and. Yeah, when I. I really look forward to that. Yeah. Agreed. Yeah. Bill, it's great. Great to be here, man. Thanks for. Thanks for coming by and hanging out with us. Yeah, I agree with you, too. Vintage and modern rookies are always a pretty good play. As long as you can get out of the modern rookies before they tell their acl. Yeah. Before they start. Right. Yep. Get rid of them before the season starts, you know, or before they get arrested. Well, I don't know how you avoid that, but you never got arrested, though. Got my guy, Rashid Rice. I got a stack of his cards over here. I don't even know what to do with them. It's like. Like one. One day he's like, you know, he's. He's, you know, fantasy football. He's like top 10 receiver. And now he's, you know, 30. And his cards go from this down to that. Like, you have no idea what the heck to do with this guy's cards. Yeah. Let's not even talk about Wander Franco. Remember, I'm in Tampa. You know how many people here loaded the boats on that guy? Oh, yeah. Brutal. And it happens. It happens, sir. Mac Jones, Zach Wilson. You got it, Bill. For sure. I still got my. I got my Mac Jones PSA3 here somewhere. Rated rookie. So you're off now to do a. Do a hockey. Hockey break. Yep. Men's hockey, 10:15 on the bigger than cardboard sports on whatnot. And what are the other streams running? WNBA is running right now on collect for good. That's all. That's. We just have the two running right now. Yeah. Good. Yeah. All right, kid. Thanks again. I will see you soon. Sounds great. Thank you, Ken. This weekend I will be at the causeway show. Oh, Bill asks, what are you ripping in hockey? Upper deck MVP Silver. I am at the causeway show this weekend on Saturday with one half of Bill and Billy. Billy would be with me. And widowbug Cards will be up there as well. And no show for me on Sunday, but I'll be back with an episode on Sunday. I want to thank everyone for watching, thank everyone for listening. If you're not subscribed, please subscribe. And we'll be back next week with a brand new episode. Corey, thanks again. Thanks again, Ken. Have a great night. You too, Ra.