The $1.28 Million Celebrini Sale + Can PSA Fix the Grading Crisis? + What Happens to 11 Million Cards?

Michael Jordan Sports cards is a lifestyle. Sports cards and we live now. Jeremy Lee in the building and every guess that you ever needed. Sports cards after hours. Keep the hobby heated. Updates, homie. Talk like you never seen it. Sports cards live and I could ever beat it. Sports cards is a lifestyle Sports cards and we live now. Welcome to another episode of Sports Cards Live with your host, Jeremy Lee. Oh, those comments I had started earlier are still there for me. So. But I'm gonna just go to a couple right now about what we're talking about here. First of all, inspired Sports Car says Cards to the Moon is an excellent podcast. Highly recommend. Nice to see that. Thank you. Inspired Sports cards Molo says, love how everyone's collections evolve, recalibrate, etc. Yu-Gi-Oh absolutely agree with that. Fresh Prince says at some point, every modern card becomes vintage. So I agree. And Fresh Prince, Steve, good to see you. I agree with a comment, however, and I just had this discussion somewhere, but maybe it was in the comments. But, like, the term vintage does not apply. Does. Does not really. We in the hobby don't use that term to describe how long ago the cards were. Were produced or. Or issued. We use it to define an era or a couple of eras. I don't necessarily agree with this, and I've done episodes talking about it before where it's like, okay, if Vin, you know, if an antique is. If antique is a hundred years old, well, that's always moving. What's vintage? Is vintage 30 years old. If that's the case, 95 is vintage. But everyone will say, no, vintage ends. Vintage ends at 1970. Or some people say 80 or 70, some people say 1989. Whatever they say. So to Steve's comment, which I, I think is great, but the word vintage in our hobby is used as a term of convenience. It isn't used to say that this card is vintage years old, because if that was the case, it would move every single year. Every single year. Gem rate. Or somebody could put out a post that says, okay, guys, vintage is now shifted. It's no longer at the end of the 1985, now it's the end of 1986, and so on and so forth. But that's just not how it works. We don't have the proper terminology in place to make it obvious to everybody. And I think that that's why we have these discussions ongoing. Because what is vintage? Let me ask you, Clark, what. When does the vintage era end in your mind? Oh, man, that's. That's a really good question. And even as you were explaining I'm like, that's a good point. A hundred years from now, are we saying. I was trying to picture. Are we going to say my Mic Trout Bowman Chrome auto is vintage? And it'll be hard for me to see it that way because I had that card when it, you know, when 100 years ago. So I, I don't know. I think, I think what you said at the end is probably the answer, that there will be someone or a group of people in the hobby that comes up with a certain terminology to describe the different eras. So I don't know if it's like extra vintage will be a thing or, you know, I mean, like just kind of talking, just spitballing, but I think there will be new terminology that will describe some of the different eras that we have as we move forward in the hobby. Yu-Gi-Oh I mean, I, Yu-Gi-Oh I've, I've often held the thought. For me, at least that vintage, Vintage goes up until about 1988 and then 89, when Upper Deck came out and changed the game in terms of stock and packaging and all that, that was a big change. No more gum and packs. But, you know, people that I'm friends with and, and respect their, their, their positions tell me it's 1980, when. Or 81, whenever, you know, Fleer and Donruss entered baseball. But that's only one sport. That's not all the North American sports. So does that count? A lot of people say it's 1970. I think Dr. Beckett uses the, the, the, the, the standard that once they went away from high numbers or multi series and baseball started issuing just one, one big set, that was the end of vintage or that was at least a big shift in, in things. And I don't know the answer to this, but I don't think it really matters. Like, it's just, it's fun to talk about what. But so for me, I'm gonna stick with, for me, I think vintage is like through the 80s. Like to me, 89 is when it goes from vintage to modern. How about yu-gi-oh? How do you see it? I'm gonna guess you're a bit earlier. No, Yu-Gi-Oh I, I mean, I kind of adopted that Dr. Beckett epic era thing in my earlier youth, but I, you know, so 72, 73, but then 76, I, I'll go to 79. I think once you hit 80s, you know, when FLIR comes in, you got some of those, you know, varieties of, of, you know, the Bonds and the Gwyns and all the different rookie cards that come in and you know the quote unquote junk wax. I, I don't think of that as vintage. So I'm gonna go 79 as my cutoff. 70. Yu-Gi-Oh I mean that. I think that's a pretty popular take right there, Joe. So, and listen, I, I only raise it because we have Clark on who's new to vintage and it's. These are the things that you, you, you, you know, you think about, right? Yu-Gi-Oh Yu-Gi-Oh for sure. Yu-Gi-Oh No, absolutely. Clark, you real quick. Are you a Raptors fan or do you. Which, what, what basketball do you collect, if I might ask? Real quick? Yu-Gi-Oh so I mean I'm a hometown guy, so Raptors is the team I cheer for when they one-of-one 2019. That was amazing experience of course being Canada's team. So I'm sure Jaylee celebrated as well. But I find a lot of us that, that were into basketball. I'm, I'm 48, so a lot of, of as I collected into basketball knew a time when the Raptors weren't around and, and a lot of us were Knicks fans. Right. My friends were Knicks fans. And then I, and I had Nick's penance on my wall and then you know, obviously I switched when the Raptors came into being. But, but Yu-Gi-Oh so I, I collect kind of those are my two teams and, and then now with Modern, I have a Luca. I'm a Luca believer. So I have a, I have a rookie patch auto of Luca sga. I, I cheer for my Canadian basketball players as well. So that's kind of my lane when it comes to basketball. Excellent. Good to hear. Good to hear. Thank you. Yu-Gi-Oh A couple just comments on the vintage thing here. Chris C. Says vintage cut off for me is 89. Agree with Jeremy. More like modern wax term. I see that Ben Pojac says the term vintage is relative to how old you are, which I think is true. I think if you look at the, the, the dictionary definition of vintage, it's like actually I don't know, is it relative to how old you are or is it relative to how many years back from today? I don't actually know the distinction between those two, but it should be, it should be something that moves over time. But in the hobby we, the hobby generally just does not use it in that way. And that's okay. We, we can add definitions, hobby definitions to what are otherwise common terms in society. So, Yu-Gi-Oh common. Call it whatever you want, guys. You know, you're, you're not going to get much of a fight out of me. It's. It's Just there's other things to talk about, I think. But it's a fun one. It's a fun one. So, Clark, by the yu-gi-oh, how are you for time? I feel like we're already 15 minutes over. Yu-Gi-Oh I should probably. I should probably head out, although I'm having a great time. But, Yu-Gi-Oh I might. Might get my walk in and catch you guys as you continue to Pandora into the late hours. All right, thanks, buddy. Thank you for holding court while I was, Yu-Gi-Oh lightning that of here and, Yu-Gi-Oh And we'll see you. We'll talk to you later. My Pulsar Enjoy the show. Clark. Great meeting you. Take care. Thanks, man. All right. So, Clark, I wanted to just sort of ask you a little bit about. And this is funny because this is me, but I mentioned it in your intro. We are both Canadian content creators with. With largely American audience. If I look at the demographics in YouTube and podcast, the. The American audience makes up about. It's between. It moves between 65 and 70% of the LIT. Sorry, sorry. 65 and 80 of the listeners. It depends which platform. But it's pretty heavy. And I feel like it's moving more and more American as time goes by. I feel like you are. And I don't see your demos, but I feel like you're almost the same thing. Like, what do you think? It's kind of neat because there are. There are. It's. If you are. It's funny because then you got the hockey Cards Gong show, our. I know. Friends of mine. I don't know if you're friends with those guys as well or not, but, you know, they're out of Minnesota, except for Loud Phil, who's out of Ottawa, but those guys. And I haven't seen their demographics either, or their analytics, but I'm certain that they have a large Canadian contingent, probably a lot bigger than you and I do. Right. And so. Not that, you know, that's fine. They are the hockey cards Gong show. You and I are really more versatile in what we talk about here on our. On our. On our shows. But what has your experience been like that in. From the angle that you have sort of penetrated that U. S Market. Yu-Gi-Oh no, it's. It's a weird feeling because when you first start your podcast, you obviously it's. I remember the first 10 people that Downtown. I knew eight of them, and they were my friends. Right. So they. And they all live in the gta, the grand Greater Toronto area. But as the podcast kind of grew and. And you just kept, you know, consistently Making episodes. To your point. I just checked my data Yesterday on Spotify. 85% of my listeners are from the U.S. right? So. And then about 78 Canada and then the rest of the world. So that's kind of the breakup of. In terms of podcast numbers. So it, it's, it's when, when I go to the West Coast Card show, there's been a couple times when people, I'm sure you get this too, they recognize your voice. And you're a tall guy too, so they probably recognize you on. You're on YouTube, so they recognize your face. But I'm primarily still on audio, and it's funny that they recognize my voice and they're from, like, in West Coast. Like, I, they live in Los Angeles, you know, like, I have zero connection with them other than this podcast that we do every week. And so it's such a cool feeling to know that what we're talking about, what we record is heard from, like, far places. And when I. This past Sport Card Expo in Toronto, I just had my first booth, my vending experience in April, and I was shocked that, like, there's four or five people that came to our booth that travel from the US To Canada just to say hi, just to check out the Sport Card Expo in Toronto, because we talk about a lot. And it's funny because we don't shy away. I'm sure you don't shy away on the fact that we are Canadian, although I know that most of our listeners are American. There's one thing I do adjust for the pod, and I will admit it right now, that when I talk dollars, I talk US Dollars. That's the common currency. And sometimes my collector friends in Canada, they'll talk in Canadian. And sometimes I get confused. I'm like, oh, it's. It cost that much already? And then I realized they're talking Canadian dollars. But, but, but, Yu-Gi-Oh So for my audience, I usually talk US Dollars, but it's, it's kind of cool that people are coming to even Toronto to check out the show just because we talk about it a lot, because that's where we're from. And, and, and I think that's part of. Not that people are interested in the fact that we're from Toronto, but I think they can resonate with just really knowing that there is a local hobby community wherever they live. And, you know, that's kind of really cool to just have that kind of community around. Yu-Gi-Oh the, the currency one-of-one. I often talk in USD as well, because I do a lot of auction coverage shows and so it's all in USD for the most part. So I hear you with that. That's funny. It's interesting to hear because I, I don't know man, but like I've, I feel like you and me are the only ones I'm aware of. I'm sure there's others, I just don't know who are Canadian content creators, podcasters, YouTubers that don't have a focus on hockey. Now my collection is dominated card. Like if you, If I have 3000 cards in my collection, 2850 are probably maybe 2800 or hockey. 200 are non hockey. But those 200 non hockeys are probably like value wise the same as the rest of them. Like they're probably equal in value to the 2800 hockey cards because I just have a lot of hockey cards. I'm just going to check in on the Goldin auction again on the Celebrini guys. I'll hit refresh here. Still sitting at a million 51.281 million with the buyer's premium. Let's hit refresh and see. No, we're still there. Just a minute left in extended bidding. So if there's not a bid in the next minute, that celebrity card will sell for 1,281,000 likely making it the top, I don't know, three or four, two tops. Maybe it's the second most expensive hockey card ever sold behind. Well, I think there's been a couple Gretzky's that have done over over this. So one-of-one it's gonna be a top five for sure. Maybe a top three or two even. Absolutely crazy. Yu-Gi-Oh we will, we will, we will see soon where this is at. Big hit. Djen wants to know, do we know who the owner is? I, I think I just saw a reel on Instagram like today that was put out by Goldin with the owner of this card. So. But I don't remember his name or anything. We're down to 15 seconds on it. But that big hit Degen, if you check out Goldin ig, you might find it. I'm going to refresh really quick here with eight seconds left and see what's happening here. Five seconds. It looks like that might be it. Is there one more bid coming, see what happens. I'm gonna hit refresh one more time. It doesn't really. I, I believe it's sold, but I can't tell for sure. One more refresh and see if anything. Winning bid, a million fifty it looks like. I think it's over looks over to me, that's. It says more hockey cards, please. And Yu-Gi-Oh that's a, That's a big sale for the hockey market. You're going to see a lot of headlines about this card, everybody, over the next couple days, all over your social media. So, I mean, I think people were wondering if it would hit a million. And it almost hit 1.3. So big, big sale for the hockey community, which Clark and I are not. You know, we're. We don't really serve that market completely, but I certainly do still collect hockey cards myself. Okay. When I, when we were chatting, Clark, I said to you, hey, want to have you on the show. What are you really interested in? What is, what are you talking about lately that has your specific interest on the Cards to the Moon podcast? And you mentioned what I put on our thumbnail today, which was really the state of grading. So I'm gonna turn it over to you, Clark. And like, when you mention the state of grading, what are you thinking about? What has you mostly interested? And, you know, obviously depending on the topic, we will have talked about it on previous episodes here, but I want to hear kind of what, what you think about the current state of grading. Everybody knows what's going on with grading, but what is it? How do you interpret the current landscape? It's just insane. I think what we are doing right now is not sustainable, especially if we expect the hobby to grow. And it certainly seems that way in terms of people coming in and so on our pod, of course we cover the industry. Like you're saying the hobby news, what's going on in the industry? We've covered ad nauseam, all the shutdowns, the regular value tiers of psa. Beckett, more recently, of course, TAG as well. So. So where are we as in the hobby? Like, what can we do? And unless we're willing to shell out hundreds and sometimes thousands of dollars just to get grading done. And, you know, that really limits what you can send out. So what, you know, every. Every couple weeks with my co hosts, we. I always like to do like a brainstorm session on our podcast. Like, how can we, you know, try to make the industry better? Like, can we think outside the box? Some. Sometimes the ideas are really dumb, but sometimes it's. It's. Maybe there's a kernel of good idea in there somewhere. And so that's kind of like, you know, where we are now, because I don't, I don't think I know there, there are people that say this, and I'm not sure either way. But when the backlog in PSA more specifically comes down to 4 million or 5 million, whatever their target is, I don't know if they're going to reopen the value in regular tier. Like that's kind of what people are saying because then we're kind of in this cycle again because once you do that, there's going to be a huge influx and then we're going to go cyclical again on where we are in the state of grading. So I wonder if PSA has another strategy. And even before coming on this pod, I'm like, I have a segment in my podcast called Just a Thought where we kind of have this brainstorm session and, and I haven't shared this with anyone and like I said, it could be really dumb. So I'm really curious to think what you think of this idea that I'm about to share with you. Okay, I can't wait. But I was thinking when people grade their cards and I'm only talking more modern, I know we took a, we spent about 20 minutes talking about vintage, but let's flip to modern. And that's why a lot of people are submitting nowadays. When you, when you submit your modern cards to PSA in particular, everyone is what, hoping for a PSA 10, right. And, and I know right now the TCG guys are the ones that are flooding the market, but they're also hoping for a PSA 10 and it costs, the, the costs are increasing, seems like every month. But with the technology that's available to us, I wonder if there will ever be a time when we could just scan the card. Right. And somehow digitally submit it to psa and they will do their best. Maybe they use Yu-Gi-Oh technology, I don't know. And give a percentage in terms of what is the likely PSA 10 outcome. Right. And, and if it's not that great, I mean, I, I don't know if I would send it. And people are going to say, well, PSA is about making money. Maybe you charge 10 bucks for every scan like you, you can make some money. And, and I'm sure that the last thing they want to be doing is receiving more, more cards and then them get majorly backlogged, pissed off customers and then maybe they go to another grading company and the. I already see what people are going to say, which other grading company can you go to? The collectors own everything. So yes, I, like I said, I haven't thought everything through. But I'm wondering if, if you know, and the reason why I thought of this idea is That I feel like what we're doing in terms of grading, sending cards in, people looking at it, the graders looking at it, feels very primitive. You know, like, we have all this technology available to us. I feel like there's got to be some better way to really make use of the technology. I know people say Yu-Gi-Oh a lot, but I think we need to think even further outside the box to kind of solve the problem that we're in right now. Yu-Gi-Oh Lots there. Lots there. And, you know, your, Your idea of sending a scan to PSA for the likelihood. I, I'm skeptical on that idea because of. I mean, there's different scanners there. There's different settings. People could try to. People could send in a scan to psa, juice up the scan, they come back and tell you it's a 10. They send the card, and it comes back a six. And now it's like, what? You told me to be a 10. You know, of course their terms would say, no, you're. We're not. We are not guaranteeing anything. But, you know, people don't really read terms, so they will come out. Come out of that, come out against that as well. I don't know. You know, that old. As that old cliche goes, we can put a man on the moon, but we can't solve the PSA backlog sort of thing. We can't find graders. And do people want to do the work? Yu-Gi-Oh man. It's tough. It's. I don't envy psa. I, I, I think I probably do envy the money they're making, but I don't envy the job they have to do. Right from the top executives all the way down to the graders. The last job I would want in the hobby, literally, the last job I would want in the hobby, besides cleaning up the bathrooms at card shows, would be being a PSA grader. I just think I would go. I think I'd want to literally. Yu-Gi-Oh Yu-Gi-Oh Quit that job. Yes. Can't imagine doing it. So. Yu-Gi-Oh it's got to be tough. I don't know the solution. Clark, I, I'm glad you came with something. Listen, every great idea starts with some kernel of thought, and then these things can be brainstormed and grow into something really awesome. So I think, you know, I one-of-one I one-of-one ask your thoughts on this, because this is where I wonder what the impact will be. Because if, if psa, first of all, they're grading the. They are grading. I think. Now, I was listening to the Hobby with Cage podcast. Actually, I hadn't listened to him in about a week. He's a, a podcast I listen to. Hadn't listened to him in about a week. Last night I knocked off like back to Baba four episodes. All very good episodes. He, he did a great job on those episodes that I listened to. And it might have been him that started talking about how what happens when these 10, 11 million cards get dumped on the hobby? I think that's a concern people have. That was a concern that I have. Again, I think it was Cage that said, you know, they're not going to dump them all out at once. Number one, they can't. But number two, they're probably going to control how that happens and maybe that controlling the, the outflow of, of graded cards, you know, it's con. We. I'm saying they control it, but it might be their capacity one-of-one Every day they might ship 100, 150, 000 cards. I don't know what it is at all. But nonetheless, when 10, 11 million cards are, are in the backlog and those are about to get dumped on the hob, even if it takes three or four months, can the hobby sustain, withstand that? So that's question one. And then the other thing I think about is, are great. Are, are the cost of graded cards going up right now because people aren't able to get their own fresh inventory from PSA to have in their, in their showcases and on, on their, in their ebay stores and their Fanatics accounts and all this? Or is it more expensive to buy a graded card because the cost of grading is now $80? So if I can buy a slab for 50 bucks, the card's worth 40. I'm like, come on, that's a $10 slab. Now I can't get a slab for $80. Yu-Gi-Oh and I asked this to the chat too. Are you guys thinking and do you guys think that the cost of an already graded card has gone up because the cost of grading has gone up? So two big questions there for you, Clark. The dump of 11 or 12 million cards on the hobby over the next six months in addition to their, to their regular outflow and then our car are slabs more expensive today because of the shutdown or the semi shutdown. The shutdown service levels. Yu-Gi-Oh no, two great points and really interesting points to discuss. The first one I think and I, I might be wrong, but I'm pretty sure the majority of the backlog is with tcg. So it's going to be interesting to see the Pokemon car market, how they're going to weather the storm. I think it's already sharing to you off air, you know, once a month. I have a friend that's really into Pokemon cards. Come on the pod. He educates us a bit what's going on in that part of the world, hobby world. And there's already 30 cut on a lot of the modern cards. So I think you're already, there's some anticipation already happening. So I, in terms of sports cards, I guess it depends which cards are getting commonly submitted. So I feel like ultimately, even if it was more balanced in terms of 50, 50, and I'm pretty sure it's more like 8020 in terms of TCG sports cards, that's in the backlog. But if it's 50 50, I think it's really a lesson that a lot of people are going to learn that it's not the smartest move and if you're looking to flip it to try to get more common cards submitted. So I think we're going to learn to be more selective, generally speaking, in the hobby on what cards should we submit. And I think because of this boom, there is a lot of cars that probably, I don't know, unless you want it for your PC and you want it authenticated, you want to slap. There's probably a lot that probably shouldn't have been submitted to any grader. So I think there's going to be a learning process, learning curve there. And yes, maybe for the short term there will be a, when the, when the cards come back, there will be some cards that will drastically reduce in price because of the supply is all of a sudden high. The second question was the value of grading or the value of cards going up because of the cost of grading. I see the logic in that, but then I see how many PSA 9 cards are out there that are just going way below. Like, I can't sell my PSA 9 cards for the cost of grading. Like, people are not willing to buy PSA 9 mint cards for the cost of grading. And they're, you know, I'm sure you discussed it before. Raw cards cost more than PSA 9 cards right now. So I don't know if that will ever flip, but that tells me that there will be some cards that you're going to pay a premium for the PSA 10s, of course, because it'll be hard to get in a slab. But for everything else, I, I don't, I don't think that's going to be the case. I don't think PSA nines or eights, especially when the pop counts are at least a thousand or more. I think if you have those cards as a seller, you're probably going to lose money more than you know. I, I would like to see if you try to increase the price. I have a feeling that's going to stay in your case for a while. So you're talking about eights, nines and tens and nines not selling for the price of grading. Just so everyone does understand you were talking specifically about modern. Ultra Modern cards are obviously that, that's obvious but I feel we need to state it just in case and Yu-Gi-Oh So as far as the like, as far as the hobby people in the modern hobby not willing to pay the, the price of grading for a PSA 9. Like you said, it's a mint condition card guys release you it should be. And the other piece of it is the difference between a PSA 9 and a PSA 10. And ultra modern is often undetectable to, to the consumer. Is it detect, is it even Sometimes it's often undetectable to the grading company. They're just 9 10, 9 10, 9 10, 9 ten. It's just what really, I mean, Yu-Gi-Oh it's, it's. We're in an interesting place right now and there's a, there's a couple of comments that did come in here that I think are, are interesting. What one of them here I wanted to, I wanted to look actually I'm going to do, I'm going to go through a couple of comments here Clark. Now if I may, I'm going to start at the bottom with a comment that Neo just put in. He said supply has not changed. 2 to 3 million cards per month are still coming out of PSA every month. So I think, I think what, what, what Neo is letting us know is happening is that they have, they have slowed down the intake. They're still pumping up the same amount of cars they've always pumped out and they probably always will until they're caught up. So what I said earlier about this dump of cards maybe is not the hobby will not feel it any differently. However, it wasn't that long ago that PSA was doing, you know, a million cards a month, 1.1 million, 1.2 million and now they're doing 2.5 million. So that is a, that is a new rate of, of shipment of shipping into the hobby that they're doing that has slowly kind of ramped up, but still slowly over a year is, it might take a while for the hobby to feel it and maybe now listen there's all sorts of ways these cards are being distributed, whether it's in like the repacks and on the live selling platforms and how much of it is TCG such that the sports community isn't even feeling it. These are all things that need to come into the discussion that I'm just not an expert in. I'm sure Neo can educate you guys way more on that than I'm able to. And by the way, Clark, as I'm going through some comments now, just, just let me know if you want to jump in with anything. POJ here said. What I've discovered is that many people who submit cards don't know what to look for on a card prior to submitting it. Learning what to look for and how to look for issues is the key. Comes back to what you said, your idea and then when you had your idea about a like a scan, a $10 scan, a pre grading scan. There are, there are grading services out there, like ancillary grading services out there that will do that for you, that will let you know if. But you know, it's not, it's done by humans still. I. By. I believe it's still done by humans, not by computer assisted technology. So I think Steve Lane says pursuant to Pops and Comps, the end, he quotes the essential function of grading companies is to authenticate cards so that collectors can do business with confidence. That's not happening now. Stephen Lane not only is it, not only is it not happening, there's so many things wrong with, with what the essential function of grading companies is. And that's part of the purpose of me writing the book Pops and Comps was to show just how much grading has lost its way. Because if you think about it, what, what. And listen, I'm not going to flip to this exact sentence in the book. But, but the essential function of grading companies is to authenticate cards. Yes, I think that goes without saying. But they don't. They have an error rate. They are not foolproof and I don't know that we expect them to be. But I would, I would venture to say that the error rate is higher than we want it to be, the hobby would want it to be. And so collectors, they do do business with confidence, but it's almost a false confidence a lot of the time because, because the grading companies, not only do they not always identify counterfeit cards, but what, what does authenticate mean? Authenticate the, the, the originality of the card itself. I. I. E. Non counterfeit. Or are they also authenticating the fact that the card was or was not altered or trimmed, recolored, all these things. We know they can't do that. We know the PSA cannot spot trimmed cards. I mean, no, they can, but not enough. They can't do it enough. I mean, just go to Blowout and read some, read some threads there. You can just see how often they miss the mark. So, Yu-Gi-Oh Steve Lane's final sentence here. That's not happening now. Absolutely. It is not. Agree. Yu-Gi-Oh it's big hit. Degen said that's why a lot of people love NFTs. There's no grading. I just can't get behind that big hit. I mean, I don't think, I don't, I don't know what percentage of hobbyists are moving from sports cards over to NFTs because of grading. I, I think it's close, as close to zero as you can get without it being like on the. But I'm probably wrong on that. I don't know. It's. Moloko said people grade too many cards that do not need to be graded. It was only a matter of time. And I think, listen, I'm an, I'm a big proponent of you can grade whatever you want if you have a, if you want to grade your three dollar, you know, to 1991.92 Upper Deck Nicholas Lidstrom rookie card, go ahead and do it. Go ahead and do it. You have as much right to send your card as anybody else does if you want to pay the fee. But I understand the sentiment still. And because that, I think that that's where upping the price helps to push those cards out of the, out of the queue in most cases. So, Yu-Gi-Oh over. Back to the Celebrini card just for a moment here, guys. Anita Mandalay here said that the guy that pulled it was on a segment of the Hockey Cards Gong show last week. Could not have went to a luckier fella. Great story. Happy to hear that I missed that segment. So thank you, Anita, but it's nice to hear. And then Eric from those back pages says, I think the new PSA subfloor will be $40. They want the bargain folks to use their other two brands. Yu-Gi-Oh Eric May you say they do, Eric, but did they tell you that? Or is that, is that your, your, your theory, which is fair. I'm just curious if it, if it's your theory. I don't know. I don't know yes or no if that's the case. But, but I wonder. Clark, back to your suggestions to solve ground grading I wonder if there's an opportunity for literally a bulk company to come out or for PSA to say, okay, I don't know how they would do it because they're already a capacity. But like, is there an opportunity? The hobby one-of-one accept it. The hobby is the hobby just one-of-one accept it. So I don't think what I was about to say would, would happen, but what I was going to say was some like, white label company to come out and, and just grade millions of car, let's face it. Yu-Gi-Oh A large percentage of hobbyists don't care if the grade reflects the card inside. They just don't care. They just want 10. We know that people just want tens. They don't care if the card is actually a 10. So maybe some grading company should come out and just give everybody tens and charge them 10 bucks a card. You know, their cost is 850. They can make a buck and a half a card. But if they're, no one's going to use it as the problem. So I kind of said, you know, but, but you know what, Jeremy? I love those kind of ideas. That's, that'll be perfect for my pot. Or just, you know, there's a, if there's a little bit of truth in there, you just got to work with it. But Yu-Gi-Oh it's, it's about, or, you know, trying to be realistic with wide scale adoption of that grading company, which would be hard to see. Hard to see. And then this is the comment I was looking for before from Chris C. He said, I'd rather buy more cards than pay for an often incorrect grade. Grading number. Exactly. That's me, 100. But that's where I, I say this almost every week, guys. The problems with grading can be opportunities for a savvy collector, a savvy investor. That's what I think. I'm savvy. I do. Call me. You can say which one. I think I'm savvy because I'm buying what I think are undergraded cards or cards that, that are just really nice for the grade. And so I think it's an incorrect grading number. I think the card's worthy of a higher grade. So I buy that card and it's like I feel like I'm winning the hobby when I'm doing that. So I'm with Chris C. I'd rather, instead of sending cards in to be great and especially vintage. I mean, it's just too much risk in grading for me. Clark, have you done a lot of grading Yourself over the years. Yu-Gi-Oh certainly during the COVID times, you know, like a lot of people were sending it in and, and just because the profit is there for a lot of the cards. Cards. But Yu-Gi-Oh now where we are definitely more selective and I was going to add, you already mentioned it right at the end there, like the finding cards that are undergraded. That's kind of the appeal for me. Looking for vintage cards in particular. That's, that's, that's fun to do. More competition coming out of Clark here for those of us who are playing that game because, you know, but, but Clark, I think it's so smart. I think it's so smart if you, hey, it's what I do. So I guess I think it's smart. But there's nothing like going to the national or any card show and coming across a beautiful vintage card in a PSA one, two, three, three and a half slab that looks like a five or better. No matter what that original technical grade is. To me that is like the best feeling because I just feel like I'm getting a card that, you know, you could put that same card in a PSA 7 holder hobby wouldn't blink an Yu-Gi-Oh You know, some people might say it's over graded, but they're not going to say it's a three. They'll say, oh, it's, this isn't a seven, this should be a six. Well, guess what, it's probably actually a three. So you know, you can get some great cards that way. It's so much fun doing that. And I'm excited to hear your stories as time goes by, as you discover more, more cards like that. And then a couple more comments here. Back to the vintage talk. Stephen Lane here said vintage cards have a historical provenance. A 1956 mantle has to survive a more arduous journey than a card produced in 2026. Good point. Yu-Gi-Oh Steve, you're, you're saying words right out of my mouth. I could not agree more with that, with that outlook on things. They really do. They have, they've, they've lived a different life. Definitely. Mark James here said vintage to me is like 25 plus years old. Modern is what, 10 years and younger? Ultra modern is five years. Yu-Gi-Oh I mean 25 years plus vintage. So that I don't know that you're going to get much agreement on that. That vintage is from 2000, 2001. But to me ultra modern is like 2020 forward at this point. But that's got to change at some point in time. And Then when we're talking about the, the sale of the celebrini at 1.281 million silver raccoon said, you know, to be fair, look at a dollar's value over time. A million now is, isn't what it was and he doesn't finish that. But even a couple years ago, a million today isn't what it was a couple of years ago. And we have a lot. We. We've had 85 new comments, guys, since I've looked at them, so I don't know how I'm gonna get through them. I hope it's just you guys talking to each other, but because I'm not gonna be able to, to get through all of them. So. Yu-Gi-Oh I'm gonna just, I'm gonna scan because I, I did mention Neo's comment. So I saw. He responded once. I want to see what he said. Mid Atlantic here said the reason people want tens has very little if anything to do with the difference in appearance vis a vis nines. Yu-Gi-Oh it doesn't have anything to do with it. I don't think as well. Laura says the Boston Card Hunter has shown some interesting correspondence with the PSA Insider. All right, something to check out if people are interested in that. And then I wanted to go. Sorry, one sec here, Clark, Thor in here said the greatest thing PSA did for themselves in terms of growth was creating the set registry. Oh, absolutely. That was incredible. Neo here said that PSA will probably be able to grade 4 million cards a month by next year. Right. They are going to need to fill that capacity. Right. You get through the backlog, you've, you've scaled up, you need to continue. So they're gonna have to bring the cost down. And he goes on to say, well, we will see. Cheaper grading will just take time. Yu-Gi-Oh I agree. I agree with this comment here from Neo that, that they will catch up eventually. You think they will? You think they will. Time will tell. So. Yu-Gi-Oh Yu-Gi-Oh incredible. So Clark, are you. What's the next card show you're going to be at and set up? Well at or set up at or both. So the next big one will probably be the Sport Card Expo in November. So that's a few months away. But closer to home. There's one in Markham where I currently live. It's Asian Roots Collective Arc World Homecoming event. Jeremy Lynn's gonna be there. Sima Lou is going to be there. So it's kind of definitely more local. But. And they, they don't cater just to collectibles or cards specifically. It's more of the Asian culture. But the fact that they reached out to me because they just see how the hobby is growing. They wanted to include something like that in their show. So it's, it's. I'm gonna do my best to represent the hobby at the show. So that's my next one coming up. That's September 12th on Saturday. Nice. Very cool. All right, so we have Chris Hojes in the back. Now, Clark, I know we scheduled you for about an hour. You came on a little bit late. You're welcome to stick around and join the conversation as we bring Chris on. Do you want to stick around or is it getting late for you? I can stick around for 10 minutes. Yu-Gi-Oh Yu-Gi-Oh stick around. There's. There's a couple of comments before we bring Ho John. I want to, I just want to do. Ryan McClanahan's comment says, I can understand that someone just wants a certain card or player and they're comfortable with a purchase. Congrats that. That's old. I thought that was to do with something else. But Ryan, if you're still here, thank you for the comment. And I want to say hello to Timepiece. Esquire says took a long break from the hobby to take care of some family business and came back to discover all my cards have quadrupled and I'm a trading card millionaire and I'm taking questions. Congratulations, Timepiece. Yu-Gi-Oh the last several months have definitely had some changes, especially the last year. And then the question that I want to raise when we're going to bring on Chris and Josh now, I'm going to. I'm going to save that comment for these guys. So, Clark, you stick around. Thanks for tuning in and being a part of the sports cards live community. Don't forget to, like, subscribe. And most of all, keep collecting more great content to come. Sports cars is a lifestyle. Are you looking for a new favorite podcast? Are you looking for a podcast about movies? Are you looking for a podcast that strictly covers 80s 90s, 2000s movies? Are you looking for a podcast that's going to be doing movies like so I Married an Axe Murderer, Hot Tub, Time Machine, Grandma's Boy, and Ghost? Well, then you just found it. Tune in to the Confused Breakfast wherever you get your podcasts.