The Chat Explodes + Bruce Wants His Say + A Live Confrontation Looms

Hello there. I'm Davin Hiskey, and on my podcast, the Brain Food show, our team, including the great Simon Whistler, our own devices Gilles Messier and fact fiend's Carl Smallwood, serve up fascinating facts and stories that'll blow your mind. From ancient mysteries to scientific curiosities to deep dive history, we deliver knowledge that will help you become the star of Water Cooler Talk the world over. Listen to the Brain Food show wherever you get your podcasts. Sports Cards Live. Yeah. Hobby talk. Sports Cards Live, here we come. This show bout to go. Jeremy Lee, get it done. This hobby is a lifestyle, bro. This hobby is a lifestyle, bro. Let's go. Best guests in the industry. You going to see it tonight. We going to keep up with this energy of Sports Cars Live. Y' all know it's a lifestyle, y' all know that we live now. Welcome to another episode of Sports Cars Live with your host, Jeremy Lee. The problem with goat again, we're overusing it. Problem with Mount Rushmore, it's limited to four, you know, now we're. Now you're talking apples and oranges. Different eras. It's almost impossible, you know, in all that way. And before we have. David, one sec before we go to you. I'm coming, I promise. I want to go to one quick comment here. Foul ball says Jay Lee, who is on the real Mount Rushmore. Well, I remember George Washington and Lincoln being there, but I couldn't remember the other two. So I looked it up and foul ball. The other two are Thomas Jefferson and Theodore Roosevelt. And once I saw that, it's like, oh, yeah, of course. But Washington and Lincoln were easy for me to remember. It's just I was literally there 45 years ago. So, yeah, fun question though. We're talking about the Mount Rushmore. We may as well pay some respects to the actual founding fathers there. I don't. Is that what we call them? Or is that. Is that the guys that signed the Declaration of Independence who are the founding father? Is that. Am I crossing my things here? Crossing them. Okay, that's okay. I don't claim to be an expert in American history. So, David, what did you want to jump in with before? So when you started talking about this, I nerd out on these kind of things all the time. And I love kind of going through these kinds of things in my mind. And I was kind of in my mind thinking, let's think about vintage baseball, or not even vintage baseball, just baseball in general. And let's look at the players versus the hobby and kind of what Joe was saying we did kind of mention versions of this in that Midlife Card Chase podcast. But for me, the playing days baseball player goats would be Ruth Ohtani with that a man now, unfortunately, Bonds and then it's probably like a tie between Aaron Mays and Cobb. Okay, that, that's my, my opinion, right? We're all doing opinions. I'm a know it all. But those are my opinions of the players. Now for hobby, let's separate it. I actually still think right now, Ohtani, he's on a Mount Rushmore right now. Ruth still keeping him up there. But let's add two other players that are not part of the conversation. I think it's Mantle and Jackie would be the other two on the Mount Rushmore. So the real thing is on this, huh? Interesting. The playing days versus hobby. Two of those are. Are the same in for my opinion, but Jackie and Mantle versus Bonds and let's call it Aaron. Okay. Bonds and Aaron versus Jackie and Mantle. Interesting, right? That those are kind of the hobby goats. Mantle, the blonde blue eyes superstar of the 50s who was, you know, the poster boy of the baby boomer generation, and Jackie, who has now come on strong because of diversity and because of what he went through, which we put him as a goat. Now I just think it's very interesting how it doesn't correlate to the same thing. And it is kind of a fun thing to think about. Do goats. Do goats almost then like transcend sport and hobby? You know, you talked about the cultural significance of Jackie, the Hollywood appeal of Mickey Mantle. You know, these guys you even think about, like Joe DiMaggio who dated Marilyn Monroe. I mean, things like that. Mark Messier, who captained the New York Rangers, their first Stanley cup in however many decades, dated Madonna. You know, like there's, there's some, there are some athletes that truly transcend their sport. Jordan did it, Tiger woods does it. You know, Messi Ronaldo do it. Muhammad Ali. These people become cultural icons, not just sport icons. And. But it doesn't mean that. It means. It doesn't necessarily mean that they were goats of their sport. It means that they had. That they were very good at their sport, among the best. But they also had some charisma. They also had the ability to. And maybe some good looks as well. Like me, right? Maybe I had some good looks as well. So. Okay, who's laughing? I got a smile from Steve. I got smiles across the top and 2 no reactions on the bottom. They're just busy reading comments. It's okay. It's okay. But I think that's the thing about, about you know, goats versus the mountain. I mean Mount Rushmore's anyway, there's so many different ways to look at it. But I, I like, I like your comments. David, Joe or Steve, any comments on this topic? Anything further? No, I just think I, I mean because this is a sports card show, I think I'm, I'm more interested in where we gravitate towards in our collecting as opposed to just like you know, some statistical measure and, or, you know, because I, I think in some ways the goat to me probably is going to equate to the statistically greatest. Maybe not entirely because there could be, you know, maybe Shohei came into the majors and do we count his, you know, maybe Satchel Page would have racked up 400 runs if he, you know, his wins in, you know, pre Major League Baseball, Negro league wins were to be counted. So there are, there are asterisks to that. But I'm, I'm just more curious like there was some content that came out about the price discrepancy between SGA, you know, who's one now back to back in VPs and Luka Doncic who, you know, hasn't won a ring yet and although he has some, all NBA teams has not won an mvp and there, and there's a significant price discrepancy. And so somebody was upset about that or at least pointing out that that's incorrect. But is it incorrect? It may just be the case that LUCA is more collectible for whatever reason. And then we can analyze what those reasons might be. It could be market, it could be, you know, the, the ways, the way they play, you know, are they enchanting to the viewers? It could be their lore, it could be kind of their origin story, could be a lot of things. So that's, that's kind of where I'm more interested in this topic. And I think it relates to what David mentioned. When you, when you elevate a Mickey Mantle, you know, didn't he date Marilyn Monroe? I mean that's pretty cool. And then, or that was that DiMaggio. I can't keep track of those, those Yankee players, but I think Mickey Mantle did everyone else though, so. Everyone else. Okay, but he was like the original five tool player, right? Like he, but like I remember my dad talking about just how fast Mantle was before that knee injury in 58 or whatever it was. So he clearly represented something like a prototype of a five tool player. Although, you know, then the knees went and he was just an awesome switch hitter. And then, you know, you, you mentioned Jackie, like, we, we would not have to search real hard to understand why Jackie Robinson might be more significant than his career statistic statistics. So anyway, a lot, a lot of factors to consider, and that's, that's why I love sports cards, is because it's not just about the numbers. You know, you mentioned stats, you mentioned MVPs, all these things that, that, this, that the, the quantitative approaches kind of take at people who take quantitative approaches. MVPs. I don't know about all sports, but MVPs are subjective assessments or almost like a grading company. Like, one day it can be a Monday, the car could be a 10. The next day it could be a 9. Depends who's on the, the committee. A vote to vote. I know in hockey, the heart trophy goes, is the MVP trophy. It's voted on by the, by the media. Then there's the, the Lindsay trophy. It's also an MVP trophy voted on by the players. I mean, I don't know, but I think the players know more about who the better player is than the, than the media. Especially when, you know, maybe 10% of the media actually played the sport. I don't know if that how it works in other, even, even the Finals mvp. I mean, this thing is announced right after the game. It's based on decisions of other humans. They have bias. They can't help but have bias. So while MVPs are noteworthy, they are just, they are, they are subjective assessments, and they're voted on by many people. The votes are the voting. The votes are tabulated. Who's to say that one person's vote didn't come from a more informed position than somebody else's? Who's to say they didn't see all these players play as much as the other guy? So MVPs, to me, are flawed. They're not, but they're something. They're something, but they are certainly flawed. Hold that thought. The other thing. Just hold the thought, please, David. The other thing is, is that one year in MVP could be much more impressive than another year. It depends who your competition is. I know that like, you've, we've had eras in all sports where there's just not a lot of generational players coming along. Even the term generational is way overused nowadays. You know, there are, there are, there have been people winning MVPs where the next guy was so far beneath them. That, to me, is a better indicator. Like Wayne Gretzky was so far and away ahead of everybody else. But looking at MVPs alone, without looking at how the voting came out, like if Michael. I won't even use. Let's. I don't know, think of it. I'm just trying to think of an example here. I'll use hockey this year. Nikita Kucherov of the Tampa Bay Lightning. They just announced it. Won the heart trophy. He won the mvp. Most people listening haven't even heard of Kucherov. He just won the MVP in hockey. He beat out Connor McDavid, who everyone's heard of. At least 95 of the audience has heard of Connor McDavid. How close was that? I mean, it was like less than a percent apart. I forget the total. You know, there's five points for a first place vote, three for a second, and whatever. However it works out. It was like 323 to 318. So is that re. Did Connor McDavid really, like. Yes, he did not win the MVP, but does that take anything away from his game? Is Kucherov really the mvp when if one person changed their vote, it could have gone the other way? So I think MVPs should be taken with a major grain of salt, but so should some statistics, especially in the team sports. If you're the best goalie in the world, but you have a horrible defense, you're going to let in goals. It's just the way the sport goes, right? If you are the. If you are the. Oh, there's. There's a. There's a good example of this. I think it's in, in hockey. But if you are scoring in basketball, if your team is, is. Can score 130 points a game, but your defense is so bad that everyone's scoring 140 against you. 130 doesn't matter. Like you're not. You know, your, your players might be getting tons of points, but they're losing their games. Like stats, MVPs, there's something. But they're. They're not the end all be all. I don't think. I don't know what is, though. Then the question is, what is the end all be all? Anyone have any. David, please. You were going to jump in before. I hope you have that thought saved. Yeah, I mean, I just. When you're talking about MVPs and how some. Sometimes they're a joke. I always think about Ted Williams. I mean, the, the writers didn't love him and the two years he won the triple Crown, he didn't win mvp, which is a complete joke, including one of the times when he lost to the Joe DiMaggio, which was the Joe DiMaggio in hit streak year. But the reason why he lost is because one writer just left him off the ballot completely even though he won the Triple Crown and he lost by one vote. So that's a joke that you win the triple Crown, you're not even on the ballot of the writer. So he should have obviously won the mvp. It was one annoyed writer that ended up making him not win it. Also, during the Bill Belichick years, we were just talking about awards like that. I mean, give me a break. I think he only won like 4, 3 coach of the year awards during that crazy reign of New England. He really should have won it pretty much every single year during that dynasty or at least most years. So I agree with you completely. The writers giving these awards. I don't really love it. I don't love it either, Josh. I would say I agree about Belichick because those balls won't deflate themselves. Couple of some comments coming through here. Let's. Let's take a run through some of these. First. Jim Define says, I love the way Josh removes all BS in his no nonsense, direct responses. Yeah, Josh doesn't play around, guys. He's here. He's here. He means business, not Yelli says Mantle isn't on the baseball Rushmore, but arguably the hobby Rushmore. Great example. Rock Late deck says MLB retired Jackie's number. That's some sort of bullet point. Absolutely. But does it make him a goat? That's a cultural significant reason. I believe a lot of that is weighted for who he was, what he stood for, his experiences breaking the color barrier, all that. I think it's. I think it has maybe more to do with that than anything else. I think. I'm not an expert at that, but that's my, my perception. I'm happy to be wrong on that. Brad's vintage says. Good evening all. Well, good evening to you, Brad. Welcome to the show. Thank you. Papa Funk says Messier was a member of the golf course I worked at when he signed with Vancouver. He was always awesome with everybody. That's nice to hear. Jim Define says you must first define goat criteria prior to the discussion or it will tend to be all over the place. I have two responses to this comment from Jim. One was absolutely right and two was we're never going to agree on the definition of goat, so we may as well just keep doing it how we're doing it. Right? Random Esports says Babe Ruth once called me and told me about launch angles. Right. Launch Angles, exit velocity, all these new terms I'm. I'm hearing about recently. And the thing is, is that those are terms that make a ton of sense to me. Like, these are the finer details that you. I'm just glad it's like advanced analytics kind of thing. It's. They make sense to me. Brad Fincher says the number of top 10 MVP finishes means more than the number of MVPs. Baseball Reference includes this in their hall of Fame monitor. I think that makes a ton of sense. The number of top 10 means more than the number of MVPs, I think. Yeah, I think you'll get. Push back on that. But I like, I want to know that as well. To me, that is context. That is additional information. Jeff Will says it took Jordan eight years to win a title, and now everyone will be. Will be sour on Wemby in his third year. They will dump his cards because we live in a much more what have you done for me lately? World than we were in before. All right, what else we got, guy? I. I'm kind of out of topics on my list here. Well, we have aesthetic versus brand hype. Does Josh, Joe, or David have anything. Put up your hand if any of you guys have a. A topic, a comment, anything in your minds right now, Josh, please? Well, I have a question about that. About that question. When you say aesthetic versus what do you mean like. Like. Like the card design or like the card brand? Thank you, Josh, for selecting our next topic. Yeah, so we're gonna talk. This is. These are from. Yeah, good question, Josh, because I have on my notes here. This came from my discussion with Steve earlier in the week. I think what we were talking about was, was the affinity for cards based on do we like them because of how they look or we do. We like them because the brand they have. They come from has a ton of hobby equity, like PMGs and. And rubies or Young Guns or Downtowns or. Or Prism Black Finites or Gold Vinyls or Super Fractures. All of these cards, all these types of cards have a ton of branding and brand equity, and everybody knows about them, and they're highly chased. Are we. I think what we were. Steve and I were getting at. Are we chasing them because of that brand equity, or are we chasing them because of the aesthetic? The design, not the. Not the. Not. Not the condition. Not the eye appeal, condition wise. The design appeal, the colors, the. The graphics, the. You know, that kind of thing. Steve, did I. Is that kind of how you remember that part of our conversation? Yeah, yeah, definitely. I was Actually, like for instance, the difference of what a super fracture might sell for compared to a gold vinyl with the same pattern playing days, all that kind of stuff. But it comes from Spectra, for instance. I'm sitting here with one right now because I had, I was thinking about that topic earlier, but you know, I don't really see that much of a difference in these gold vinyls than, you know, super fracture patterns. This one actually has a piece of game used football in it, you know, so it's like for me, a Tom Brady non playing day super fracture selling for $350,000 these days. And this thing, you know, is probably less than 20 in most people's eyes. But I, I, but I personally love this card, you know, so it's, I wouldn't sell it for 20 is what I'm trying to. Yeah. You know, because I've paid a couple hundred, I paid big for super fractures too. So. I'm sorry, go ahead. No, no, no, I, I, I, I'm sorry for jumping. I thought you might have been done. I typically don't like shiny cards with memorabilia, but just the other day I came across one in one of my searches and I thought to myself, will I ever like these cards more than I do now? Like, will this be some way that my personal taste evolves in the hobby where just like you showed like a card, you know, a, whatever it might be. Oh, essential credentials. There are some essential credentials from the early 2000s that have memorabilia in them. And I thought to myself, well, I'm, I'm a guy who likes essential credentials. Pretty much all the designs they've ever done I like, except the ones with memorabilia. And my, my, my, my thought process was, I wonder if down the road I will start to want some of those cards. Will I, will they grow on me for some reason I didn't answer the question. I didn't buy any of them. But your card reminds, it reminded me of that sort of phenomenon of trying to anticipate what we might, what we could buy today that we're, that we're, our eye isn't drawn to, that we might, that it might be drawn to 5, 10, 20 years down, down the road. Totally a bit of a different topic. I apologize, I'm going off on a bit of a tangent, but let's get some responses to what you were saying, Steve, on the, you know, a vinyl versus a super factor. Like, you know, in hockey we have the golden treasures. It's the same, it's the same pattern pretty much. They're very nice, but the brand, the, the, the, the brand they come from has some impact on, on the values. David. I ended up taking notes on this when I watched a program earlier this week. I was watching sports cards Investor to where I get all my knowledge and when one of the topics they were discussing was the gold logo man, right? And how crazy those prices are for these gold logo man cards, right? And it's going to be so much more than the rookie RPAs. They're going more than anything ever because of this new brand. And I get it, right. It's from the Cy Young or MVP seasons of these players. But I mean, just, I took notes on some of these values. How crazy this is, right? For sga, his most ever card before this new gold, the gold patch, the highest sale was 228,000. This new gold patch, which is a current one, went for over a million dollars. Okay. Compared to his highest sale previously was over 228,000. For Josh Allen, his previous highest sale was his rookie patch, which was 288, 288,000. His gold shield just went for 1.35 million. Okay. And then Otani's two biggest sales of his career are these gold pat. These gold patches. And I looked up these gold patches, by the way, Ohtani wears them every game of the season. Okay. He doesn't have one. And same with every football player they wear for every game. And same with every basketball player they have this patch on for every game of the season. Now, I know there's only one tops card that bought that has it right now, but you think that they're not going to show another one of those gold patches on a later set? I don't know. I just think it's crazy and it's kind of this brand awareness right now that is going for such high prices compared to like their rookies. I don't know. I think it's just a version of that conversation I thought was interesting. Yeah. Thank you for that. Yeah. Interesting stuff. David, Steve, Joe, Josh, any. Anything else on that? I, I have, I have a comment I want to get to in the chat, but anything else from any of you guys before we move on? Well, I, I think it's a great conversation, actually. I like discussing, you know, kind of the. Where collectors find interest and I, I salute people that don't necessarily just go after the. The brand equity, if you will. That said, sometimes there's overlap, right? Sometimes the equity of the brand is connected to the aesthetics of the card. And if that's the case, then I don't think there's anything wrong. Like I've been looking around at exquisites, they're hard to get into. You know, there's a lot of hype with exquisites. Jeremy, you found your way into a beautiful exquisite with I believe it was a noble name plate. And you know, I almost actually, without you knowing, bid on that card. I would have bid you up, I know wouldn't have bid you up if I knew you were bidding on it too. But we were, we were both interested in that same card. And that's I think an example where the, the luster and name value recognition of the exquisite brand also aligns with an aesthetic that is, you know, really compelling. So I would just to synthesize, I would say there are moments when I think you can absolutely get lured into the brand and, and forget about the aesthetic, but just be kind of almost, you know, a bit robotic in your consumption, if you will. And then there's moments where it, it kind of aligns and, and both two things can be true. Your, your brand and your aesthetic value can, can coincide. So. Yeah, well said. Yeah. And there's some comments that kind of support what you're saying there, Joe. So I'm going to run through a few of them here. First of all, Area 51 says what attributes make a great hockey player. He goes a quarterback with a cannon arm, Wide receivers or running backs who run a 4.2 40, a pitcher with 100 mile per hour fastball or a seven foot basketball player with a 40 inch vertical. Well, none of those really. But what makes a good hockey player? Well, you can start with skating. I mean these guys are, they don't have shoes on. They are not, they don't have the luxury of being, you know, on, in, in shoes on the ground. They are literally skating on, they're on blades. So, so they have to be able to skate. There's, there's shooting accuracy, there's stick handling, there's hockey iq, which means knowing where the puck is going, knowing how the play is going to unfold. Hand eye coordination is another one. Toughness, speed, speed on speed. On skates, I think hand eye coordination might be the, the other thing about, about is that even like a pitcher and a, and a quarterback, even a basketball player, they get to hold the balls with their hands. In, in hockey it's six feet away. You're dangling this little black disc on a, on a, on a twig six feet away from you. So it's, you know, all these sports have very skilled athletes, but hockey, they're Doing it. They're doing it on ice. They don't, they don't touch the puck like every other sport touches the ball. So there's a whole bunch of different things. But a fun question nonetheless. Card fuchsia says here fanatics is going to be the shoe that drops. They keep promising too much. I mean listen, from a industry perspective I see them delivering so I, I don't. I'm sure they're not perfect but obviously they're not. But so far they're. They're delivering on. On their, their mission I think to 10x a hobby. I think they're well on their way there. Brad's vintage says brand equity drives value more than aesthetics. So this is kind of what. What you were saying, Joe. He says brand equity drives value more than aesthetics. Hundreds of playing days Griffey inserts number to 50 only those with brand equity and have significant value. Never understood how equity comes to be. It's such a good, such a good question there. We'll get to in a second then. Not Yelia says aesthetic will always trump branding or manufactured rarity scarcity. With the exception of unlicensed cards, the league license and branding is important to the aesthetic. So Brad's vintage comment here and not yell. I think they contradict each other. Brad says brand equity drives more. Not Yelia says aesthetic drives more. And then Brad even adds never understood how equity comes to be. I think it comes from like taste makers. What. And, and, and also I think it also comes from what the hob. What was important back in the day? Not everything was important. What brand did they come out of? Has. Has some act, some. Something to do with it. I can't explain. I don't have the answer for Brad on. On. You know, how did brand equity come to be? I'm sure we could come up with a pretty reasonable thesis on it if we spent the time. My brain isn't powerful enough to do that right now here. Mike good though says you could buy a true game worn jersey from the goats cheaper than you could buy some of these new cards with their patch. I'm sure you could, Micah, but who collects full. Who wants full jerseys? Like I don't know, you can't stack those with the rest of your card. So kind of a moot point to me. But your point is. Is well taken. But the other thing I'd say is that you know what, you could probably go buy a full cow from the farmer for less than you can buy a steak at a five star restaurant in Paris, London or New York. So, you know, I mean, I don't know. I. I don't eat full cows, but I will go buy a steak. I don't collect full jerseys, but I will buy a jersey. I will buy a jersey patch card. So any. David. Yeah, I mean, also to bring this kind of into the. The vintage realm, I think that my 48 leaf set that I love so much and that Josh loves and that Joe loves, and I'm trying to convert Jeremy to love it more. That set is not the most beautiful set in the world. Right. Some cards are, but the Jackie isn't. The page isn't. And I had this conversation, and I know Josh, his favorite card is not the Jackie. And you love those short prints. And a lot of those short prints, Josh, their eyes are outside of their head. All right? They look like a complete mess. Right? That's what makes it so beautiful. So this is what I was actually talking to Joe about one time when we were talking on the phone or texting or something. And what Joe brought up was, you know what? Art doesn't have to be beautiful, which I thought was a really amazing comment. Joe, Joe, talk about that a little bit for what you were saying. Well, especially in the realms of the Leaf said, it's like there's just so much going on there. Every card is unique, right? And so in that way, like, the. Those cards are more artistic than, say, you know, your standard 89 upper deck Griffey, which is a beautiful card aesthetically. But in theory, there is a way that card's supposed to look. And, you know, maybe the hologram's a little jaded, but there's just such wide variety with those. Those leaf cards, from the color to the way that the ink laid down to the, you know, the different sort of shadow and bleed. So, I mean, you all know more about that than I do, but I think it's just, you know, art. Art is unique, and so that's mostly where I was going with that. And, Josh, talk about your. Your version of these short prints that. That their eyes are never in their head, like, why they're beautiful to you. It's beautiful because the set was made in such a rush to sell as much gum as they could from the Leaf company. They were just printing this stuff out, and the short prints had one printing. They are zero quality control. Right after the war to sell gum in the northwest side of Chicago. Just the perfect set. And by the way, the Dobie is a beautiful card. I think it's fantastic. The new house is the best card in this set, I don't care what anyone says. Thanks, guys. I, I was just thinking about the brand equity discussion and I was thinking, you know, I talked about it in pops and comps. So I was looking around, do I have an issue near me so I can, I can find it? And I, I just opened up my like original manuscript and I have A chapter, chapter 51 is actually titled Brand Equity. And I'm not going to sit here and read it dictated or read it to you, to you guys. But there's a couple pages that, that I do talk about brand equity and I'd have to read it again myself right now to fully reinform myself. But there's. It's something that develops over time and it's, I think it's also something that comes with a, a bit of a lineage. You know, you there, we have sets that are one and done on a regular basis. You're not going to get brand equity from that. You, you might get other type of equity, but it's not going to be brat. It might be unique, a unique equity uniqueness that can get, can endure over time or at least can pop up down the road and be like, hey, we have for everyone forgot about this sort of, this of sort, this sort of card. But I think the brand equity discussion ties into lineage in a major way. Young guns in hockey are a great example of that, where everybody knows about young guns. I mean, maybe not everybody who doesn't follow hockey cards at all, but if you know hockey cards, you know about young guns, if you've ever talked about Sydney Crosby or Connor McDavid or Connor Bard or now Macklin Celebrini, you know about the, you know about, about the young guns, you know about Tops Flagship, you know about Prism Silver. And then you start to know about things like PMGs and rubies and Essential Credentials and kabooms and downtowns and all these other things that build equity because they come out year after year, which at the end can hurt or help them. It just depends on how many times the same players are repeated over and over again. Which then brings you back to a recent Hoage cast episode. Which one of the segments was the logic of the first, which I don't know who has. I listened to his, his, his podcast just a couple nights ago on, on my Walk. And I know I'm going in all sorts of directions here, guys, but I have to. This is the thought I had last night when I, it was last night, the night before I was listening to Hoage on the Hoage cast, which I recommend you guys all go listen to. And it's all. He talks a whole segment about the logic of the first. And you know, he basically says it, you know, the. For anything to come, for the second to come and the third to come, there had to be a first. If there was no first, then the second would be the first. And it talks about dependence and what, what there needs to be to be a first and why a first is important because if it's a one and only, it's not as important. But then I was thinking about this too, because he says correctly, I think I agree with it, that it's, you know, it's a. Anything that comes after is dependent on the first. That's why, that's one of the reasons why the first is so important. But then I thought to myself a bit of a contrarian view into the logic of the first. Hoj, if you're listening, really want your thoughts that we can talk about this next week, maybe. But the first is important. Yes, but without a second, there is no first. There's just an. Only the second legitimizes the first. The third legit legitimizes the first and the second. Nothing the second or third are any better or more desirable than the first. But you're only a first if something followed. But why would something follow? Because the first was so good. Maybe the first was so good that it, that, hey, we got to do this again. We need a second. But just like the second depends on the first, I think the first depends on the second. Because you're only a first. If you're not also the last, then you're. Then you're simply the only. I don't know, just some semantics and just some thoughts. My brain was going up some directions. I was thinking about the other day. I see a lot of sort. I see. Josh, I've never seen you look so either uninterested or confused. I'm not sure. Joe, I can tell you're thinking David's howling and he's along right here. I've got a quick something I toss into this and I heard it, I think, from Greg the other day and, and it was kind of in relation to. It could be applied to, to brand equity, I think because he was talking about value. And why is this card valuable, this card not valuable? How do we understand value? And he said something that kind of struck me because I think we sometimes overlook it, even though it's probably the most fundamental principle of economics and that's supply and demand, right? Like to some degree the value of something is directly correlated to how much is it available and who's willing to sell it at what cost and other people wanting that. And so to some degree that's a simplistic answer to what creates equity. Brand equity. Right. Like you mentioned, tastemakers. It's like, well, why are people wanting that? And that gets more into the psychology and HOJ dissects that at various moments. You, Jeremy, all of us kind of probably have our own reflections on what leads to that, but on a very, you know, a simple lever of what creates brand equity. It's people want it, you know, and, and that supply dwindles the more people want it. And so it's, it's harder to access, it's harder to acquire. Yeah, you know, you, I love it, Joe, you tell me, you know, Greg and I, I heard the discussion that Greg had, whether it was on Midlife Car Chase or one of his other shows. Hard to keep track. Hard to keep track. Yeah. I don't remember. But, but supply and demand, obviously a force that cannot be, that cannot be stopped in our hobby. So when we think about what brand equity and you know, you're saying, well it comes it loosely come, it comes down to supply and demand. But that's almost an easy way out. I think to, to, to further the discussion I would, I would just ask the question what supply, supply, whatever in this, for this purpose of this discussion, what's driving the demand? What is driving the demand to one brand over another one insert over another one player over another player over another is easy. People like players they like. It's where you live, it's who you resonate with. But what is driving the demand for a certain card over another is I think more interesting in this discussion than simply saying supply and demand. But it does come down to, to both of those things for sure. And getting back real quick, David, I, I'll let, I'll let you go, but I just wanted to connect Steve's original point to this, which I believe was sort of the X factor in relation to the gold vinyl. And I'm, I, I have been suspicious of the exorbitant prices that the latest, you know, Topps Chrome X factors that have just, and, but, but I think there's, there's a buzz around it because of the reintroduction to the hobby. But the, the magnitude, the proportion of disconnect between a gold vinyl and a brand new X fractor, you know, coming out seems a little far fetched from my estimation and I do appreciate I, I appreciate them both. Aesthetically, you could argue this issue, that issue, maybe a little more of this, a little more that. But the magnitude of price, price differential seems way off to me. So we'll see how the hobby sorts that out. These cards are just coming out of the pack, so there's probably a newness factor. Yeah, absolutely. David, did you want to go? Yeah, yeah. I was just bringing this back to the beginning of the show. Jeremy. I mean, what are we talking about with those patch, how much that card went for? Because of how beautiful that patch was compared to the other patch that you showed. Right. That went for 8,000 compared to 160,000. Right? Yeah, yeah. Both had patches. They both had pretty autographs. Right? Yeah, there were some, some fundamental differences, but, but the, the core essence of the cards were the same, but the aesthetics were completely different. And, and the, the170,000 card came out before there was the, the cup or exquisite. You know, the version that came out the year before actually the cup came out. So it was the last year before we had that brand in the hobby. Steve, I just want to. Are you. If you need to drop off, go. I don't want to keep you here longer than you need to be. I. We're already. I think we've kept you over here 90 minutes than we intended, so. But if you don't feel like you can't leave if you have to, you're welcome to stick around. I just want to make sure you're aware of that. I appreciate it. I am getting a little tired. I might, I might. Yeah. All right. All right, well, that's cool. Well, before you then, thank you for joining. Thank you for sharing your story with us as well. Yeah. I just want to say I don't want you to drop and I don't get to say thank you for coming, sharing your story and just being a part of the conversation and coming on the show. So thank you so much. But you stick around, drop off whenever you want. I appreciate it. I guess I, I'd like to touch on the, the last topic real quick with the, the. The super fractures. I will say on the, the other side of it, I know from personal experience that there is no playing days, Tom Brady, super fracture, stuff like that. So if that's the next option that's available for a collector now, I'm not paying that kind of money for a non playing days, but you know, I guess it kind of goes back to the supply and demand thing. There's no playing day. Super. So I guess Everybody else has to pick and choose from the stuff that's coming out of the packs now. Yeah, that's the other thing. Sometimes what we really like the looks of, like, violates other rules to our collecting or policies we have. Right. Yeah. The guru policy. Right. That's where you kind of have to, you know, consider. I'm not saying you have to be. You have. You may want to consider kind of stepping outside your comfort zone, entering a new lane, being okay with permissing yourself to go down a new lane. If you have the resources, the time, the desire. I wonder how many times people. And we can all look in, look inward on this and say, that's a great card. I'd like to buy it, but here's why I'm not going to buy it. Fill in the blank, you know, like. And not price. Not price, but, you know, and not player. I mean, it's a player I like. It's a price I can afford, but I'm not gonna buy it. Why? The brand. The brand isn't widely recognized enough. The insert isn't widely recognized enough. It's not a. It's a. It's a. It's a subset card, not a insert. It's a parallel. Not a. Not a. Not a base card. It's a base card, not an insert. Like, whatever it is, we all have these little rules I think, that we subconsciously follow. We could probably, you know, put them down, we could probably document them if we were forced to. But I think we often. And it's part of our filtering process. Right. We often eliminate cards from the possibility of entering our collection for all sorts of weird rules. And I'm sure we all have them and we. It's just part of the. Part of being collected. We're also unique in that way. It's one of the best parts. Like talked about earlier, it's nice learning how other people collect and what, what, what drives them and motivates them. And another. Steve, did you end up doing the assessment on the hobby spectrum? I did. What did you come out at? What did you. What was your result? 37. Oh, yeah. I'm 38. Precisionist. Right. Right beside me on there. Right on. Good. Did you. Did you opt in and join the directory? I did. I'm in there. Nice. Good. It's. I. I put way too many icons on there, though, so I have to. No, that. That's. You look at mine, then. Absolutely look at mine as well, so. Oh, wow. Yeah, we've got. Okay, so I don't. Yeah, I don't know, I'm just noticing a few comments here. We have a guy coming in called Bruce the card collector said, I never scammed Steve. This is messed up. Two sides to every story. Well, Bruce, if you want to send me an email and jump on a video call with me, you are invited to come tell your side of the story. Come, come, come tell your. Come tell your side of the story. Bruce, you are invited on to Sports Cards Live. I'll put my email address on the screen right now. There it is. You can see it. Sportscards, liveshow, gmail.com. if you are in fact the real Bruce and you want to come set the record straight, email me, Bruce, and we'll, we'll set up a one on one first so I can vet you and then you can come on the show and share your side of the story. Absolutely. I think we, I think that would be fine by me. Steve, what do you think of that idea? I would love it. All right, that is a legit invitation to you, Bruce, if that is in fact, Bruce, he says, check your email. All right, I'm going to do that right now. While we're all just here, you must have had my email ahead of time. So I'm just going to go check that. If we can get them. Can we, can we do this now? I, I have an email from somebody. I have an email from an email address that does have. It doesn't have Bruce in it, but it does have the name Feldman, which I think you said was his last name. And all it says is two sides to every story, my friend. Absolutely. Two sides to every story. Again, if that is you. But all that is is an email. That doesn't prove any. I, I need you to come on video with me, Bruce. Bruce, do you want to join right now? Would you like to. And Steve, if you don't want to be on for that, you can bail if he, if he accepts. But Bruce, do you want to join right now? I can email you back the link to come on the show. Let me know, Bruce, if you want to come on. I'll send you the link. Yeah, he says, how do I do it? I will, I will email you back. Do I have, can I get a show of hands? Does everybody on the screen right now think this is a go? Should we do this? Yeah. Joe, you good with it? We have to vet him, obviously. So maybe can, can you, Steve, maybe like in the private chat, ask Jeremy two things or tell him two things that that would possibly. We can make sure that we know it's him. Sure. Let's see. I'm on my phone, so go ahead. Okay. Do what you got to do, Steve. Or maybe you could ask a couple of questions to make sure. Steve. To know that it's the person, obviously. Yeah, I mean, I can also. I can also see him in the bottom here before I bring him onto the screen, but I'm. Okay, I'm gonna email him the link, and I'm gonna have to get my charger. That's okay. Right now. I love this new format of sports. If. If this. If this is a real situation, this is gonna be epic. All right, Bruce, if you are, email the. I. Okay, Bruce, I have. Bruce, I have sent you the. The link. The hobby courtroom says Fresh Prince BMW. Let me get my bw. Let me get my popcorn. This could be good, says Jim. Define. This is why you don't have that. You're thinking about Jeremy. What's that? You have some questions? Like, some. Some. No, not yet. Well, I mean, just. Just what? Yeah, we'll tell your side of the story. Where's our. Where's our. Where's our boy's money? What's up with the AI Card? Like, a lot of stuff. Okay, we have someone in. Oh, I. Okay, we have. Bruce, I do see you there. You don't look happy, but that's okay. You don't have to be happy. We'll bring you on in a moment. Steve, are you coming back? Yeah, he's just getting his charger. You should wait for a second. He's getting a charger. I'm just surprised that this guy even knows that we're talking about that. His name came up. We have a pretty good audience here, I'm sure. Maybe. Or maybe somebody contacted him. Yeah. Okay, I'm gonna. Steve, are you good for me to bring him on? Oh, you're muted. We can't hear you now, buddy. We can't hear you. Card, Fuchsia. Thanks, Steve. Card, Fuchsia. You'll have to go back in time. We're. We're not going to be able to recap right now, but. All right, Bruce, give me a thumbs up if you're ready to. Come on. He's giving me a thumbs up. All right, guys, Please welcome Bruce. 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