The Rise of the Soft Slab? + Is PSA's Pause Creating a New Market? + Hobby Innovation

Hey, it's comedian Adam Ray, and I'm inviting you to listen to my podcast about Last Night. Every Monday, I'm sitting down with some of the biggest names in the game. We've had on guests like Sandra Bullock, Melissa McCarthy, Bill Burr, Joel McHale, Jason Derulo, Adam Devine, Tiffany Haddish, Neil Patrick Harris, Tom Segura, Whitney Cummings, Scary Payton, Sean Kemp, Dana Carvey, the head and the heart, and more. So grab a burrito, put your kids in the garage, call up your stepdad, and enjoy the About Last Night podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Michael Jordan Sports cards is a lifestyle Sports cards and we live now Jeremy Lee in the building and every guess that you ever needed Sports cards after hours Keep the hobby heated updates, homie Talk like you never seen it Sports cards live and I could ever beat it Sports cards is a lifestyle Sports cards and we live now. Welcome to another episode of Sports Cards Live with your host, Jeremy Lee. And then I think of someone like Chris here, who, Chris Hoage, who is, you know, Chris, with the way you're collecting nowadays, counterfeits are kind of a non, a non issue. It's a, maybe somewhat of a moot point when, if you're only collecting the rarest of the rare, how do you, are, are you concerned about that, Chris, in terms of the unknown counterfeit potential? Very concerned. And you know, we have ways of establishing provenance and there's lots of like, institutionalized practices the collectors and marketplaces and authenticators use to try and authenticate and lend credibility to an item. But it's a huge concern. I take it extremely seriously. But it's also not an area of my expertise. I'm, I don't have a great eye for a condition or for spotting counterfeits. And so I do rely on the expertise of others and I rely on the knowledge of the community. So, but, but to your main question, Jeremy, it's a huge, huge concern and I, I hope and expect that, you know, as, as a, as a community, we'll continue to take it very seriously. We'll police offenders harshly, strictly, severely, and, and, and just draw really strong boundaries around the importance of authenticity. And the one thing I'll say sort of in defense of my confidence in our ability to determine authenticity is because in almost all situations, the actual materials used to manufacture cars, whether it's the ink, the paper stock, the machines that they were printed on, a lot of these things are now defunct, no longer used, and, or the ability to get access to those actual pieces of machinery is extremely limited. I remember even during the pandemic, one of the bottlenecks in card manufacturing was quite literally it was difficult to get access to the printing machinery that was record required. So I do think that there should be ways to use detection effectively to suss out counterfeits and forgeries and phonies. But to me it's, it's actually paramount. It's one of the most important things going right now that, that the, that the conscientious members of our community who have expertise and knowledge in this, in this domain, that they speak up, that they speak out, that they document, that they keep a very careful eye on it. I just think that what those folks do is invaluable. And, and we need that, we need to, we need to con, we need to be very vigilant about that. Yeah, like I, I, I rely on, on them when it comes to buying cards and slabs. I am relying on that grading company to protect me. And that's why, that's why I'm okay, I'm okay buying cards and PSA slabs that other people have paid the gar, have paid the up charges or just even the fees for because that gets me that insurance. So I love, I love buying my cards in. I love, I love when I get, when the card I want happens to be in a PSA slab because I feel safe. And I've said, I've said a dozen times, I've used the PSA guarantee. It has applied to one of my cards where I did buy a PSA slabbed counterfeit and they paid me out. And I couldn't have been happier because they paid me out. That was a very good feeling. So when I, when I kind of say I, you know, upcharges to the moon, I, I mean it because it's, it's worked for me. So I trust them to, number one, identify and reject counterfeits. And if they don't, I'm grateful that they have the guarantee in place 100% and absolutely. Okay. Chad, how's your time? I know we're already like almost 30 minutes past when we were going to have you, but I have a couple more topics I want to get into with you and, and with Chris as well. And are you good still? Yeah, yeah. This is fun. I've got plenty of time. That's great. Okay, so I wanted to talk. Okay. This is, this has to do with what you're doing at gcc. And I was kind of thinking, and this, this is, I I am putting out this out there and I welcome all the criticism because I have not thought this through yet. But I was just kind of thinking, when I was thinking about Chad's, you know, with gcc, what he's doing there, what his experience is and all that and where we're at in the hobby right now, guys, we are still like very new into this current period of PSA temporarily pausing the value and bulk services. This is still very new. The effects of that have not yet rippled through the way they will a week from now, a month from now, six months from now, a year from now, and even longer. These ripple effects are just starting. Like you throw, you throw the stone into the, into the, into the lake and you were seeing one, one of those rings. There are going to be multiples of those coming out in the long run. So with that context, understanding that we're, we're still not seeing the whole impact, the long term impact of this pause, I thought to myself, okay, we've got, you know, Beckett has done raw slabbing. Mike Baker does. Well, that doesn't count because he's slobbing. He's doing it on slabbed cards. Gcc. So sorry, sorry, not gcc. CGC does raw card authentication. On behalf of fanatics, collect. Anyway, my point is now we have GCC doing this kind of like, similar to like a RAW grade. They're not hard slabbing, but they are giving your card a condition assessment in a semi rigid holder. So my thought is, is this the beginning of the rise of the soft slab? And a lot of people are going to say, what are you talking about, Jeremy? We already told you, we don't like what Chad's doing at gcc. Some of you guys are open to it. I think, you know, a lot of people probably really like what Chad's doing and also realize that he's been in the grading authentication industry and collectibles for two decades. So thanks. There is a level of, of, of I think experience there and worthiness. In my opinion, without personally knowing Chad, I'd want to see some of his work before I could completely vouch for what he's doing. You understand that, Chad? But you know, based on your resume, I think, I think that it says a lot. But my question is like, could this be the beginning of this, the rise of the soft slab when getting a hard slab, especially for cards not worth 80 bucks to get graded, is this the rise of the soft slab in the hobby? And you could just come out and say, no, no. What do you, what are you talking about, Jeremy? It's ridiculous. May again, maybe it is ridiculous and I'm okay if it is like I haven't thought this through, but I did have the. I did. I was thinking that way is that could the hobby be moving away from the hard slab? Because again, the grading companies cannot keep up.15 million card backlog at PSA. TAG has also had to, had to turn off certain submission levels. I don't know if Beckett has or SGC or CGC to this point. If they've had to turn any off and if they haven't, well, great for them, good on them because the hobby needs some of that. But again, what do you actually. Well, I'll start with Chris on this one. Chad. Chris, do you like this? This, this. Okay, let me. And just a couple of comment card. Fuchsia says the rise of the soft slab. What an episode title. I like that a lot. What do you think, Chris? Is there even Mickey Minto says the professionalism of the hobby is in its infancy. So what do you think, Chris? Could this be the beginning of the rise of the soft slab? Could be. I think this is a great topic. I like the way you phrased it too. The hard slab has already risen. Maybe the soft one can as well. Jeremy. And that's why I was so interested in Chad's business plan. Because I'm thinking about how increasingly, as there are more people and there are more and more types of cards and more cards in general and the values of cards gets more and more stratified. There's more opportunities to serve more targeted, specific niches. And so the idea that there can be sort of an intermediate service that somewhere between a raw card and, and somewhere a little more formal than having a few buddies assess it, but something less formal than getting it fully encapsulated and backed by a guarantee and so forth, that there, that there is definitely a pocket there, there is a lane there. And I wonder how large that lane turns out to be. And I wonder, I wonder, you know, how much, how much Runway it has. And obviously right now with grading just absolutely slammed and, and having something that maybe some of us never thought would happen again, which is a pause at some of the largest service levels in grading that, that, that this is maybe one of the most fertile times to test, test this business concept and see and, and see what type of legs it can have. Yeah. Appreciate the thoughts, Chris. I, you know, you don't know what's coming. And before you speak, Chad, there are a couple comments that did respond that some, some good ones here that I just want to. I just want to first of all, please don't eat me much says but seriously, thanks for being here Chad. I hope you become successful because CCG is attached to a blood sucking entity called Blackstone who I hate. I am repeating the words of please don't eat me queso in the chat here. And then Patriot Jeff says I think the soft slab will be more relevant for new products in this time until things open up more again. And then Ziggy no says got baseball cards is offering a raw grade. I think there's a market for the soft slab now. I funny enough and thanks Ziggy for reminding me that because I listen Joe Got Baseball is on is on my my podcast rotation. I listened to that episode where he talked about launching his business which is some maybe similar to what you're doing Chad, but maybe different. I don't know. I don't remember exactly the details but another indication that this raw card review, this, this soft slab, this. You know what? The pre grading assessment might be on the rise. And there was also a comment, I think it was who said it here. There was also a comment that basically said that what are you talking about? They're in. PSA is investing $200 million. They're three months out. They'll be back on top in no time. Was, and I'm paraphrasing, I can't find the comment right now. But that, that was the comment. Now I hear that comment. If they are truly only three months out, this might just be a blip on, on in. In the hobbies evolution. However, sometimes, like sometimes in the in the history of, of life and business and industry, all a new service or niche or product needs is the ability to just come and show itself. And right now that might be. That's why I say this might be the opportunity for the Ross Lab to rise. I'm not saying it is. I just. It might be for that Ross Lab to rise because PSA has had to temporarily shut down. If they didn't, this might not be as much of a. Of an issue of a possibility again, I don't know it's a possibility or not, but maybe three months is all that's needed for a couple of companies to introduce themselves and they could catch on. Even if they catch on with a very small piece of the pie, that pie is so big now that they might catch on and they, and they might generate. They might earn some loyal customers and then grow from there organically. Like that is not outside of the That's. Remember, income tax is an example of. This guy's income tax is an example. Because of the war effort, they had trace. The income tax was temporary. In the, Whenever they, in the 20s or 30s, whenever income tax was first introduced, it was meant to be a temporary measure. But then the government realized, well, even though the war is over, let's keep, let's keep on collecting money and add more red tape and bureaucracy to the way things are done. So that's not what this is about. But the war, The World War I gave the government an opportunity to introduce something. It never went away. I know this is a crazy metaphor or analogy, whatever it is, Chris, you can tell me what that was. But this is that type. This is a, this is a potential opportunity for companies to rise up that otherwise wouldn't. And who knows, maybe they stick around. So. I know I said a lot there, but, Chad, why don't you respond to all these things? Yeah, I mean, it's, it's a huge thing. It's, you know, what, what, what they've done at it, it just puts everything in a bigger view for us. You know, what are we going to do? Where are our cards going to go? And then the price points for those cards, where they fall, that's where our solution comes in. And I think that, you know, the other companies, it's good for the other companies because you want other companies to have other values or, you know, to have value as well. You want there to be competition. Because what this shows is that PSA holds that, that crown. And so everybody's going there with their business, and before they started grading TCG and the, the growth occurred like it has, you know, they were maintaining just fine. So it's great to see we're just evolving. And like you said, it's a new. I think somebody used infancy. You know, we're in that infancy, and who knows what will come and what'll stick around. Like the income tax analogy you make, that's what we hope to be, is a solution that didn't really present itself until now. So now you can use it, and it makes a lot of sense, and then it helps the industry and helps all the other businesses, too. So, you know, the rising tide, all the boats go with it. So we're all enjoying that. It's. If we can figure out how to maintain the growth and keep everybody happy, because we're all intense. You know, everybody wants these cards graded, wants them back, and we can't figure out a way to get them back quick enough. And I think that's because you just don't have enough options in the industry. It's good to see, it's good to see this problem, but now we've got to figure out with the people who have been around and the people who can make a difference go out there and, and make a difference. So sitting in a grading chair and sitting back in a vice president role, you're, you're able to see those things, but you can't do anything if you're still sitting around doing that. So I think it's a, it's a great opportunity for people like myself to get out there and work with others like you guys to, to figure out what do we do, how do we fit, how do we make, you know, the soft slab permanent. This is a great thing that could really be worthwhile if we, you know, listen to the negative, listen to the things, the cons, but also trust the pros and let the market decide. And we've yet to really have anything present itself for the underbelly of the value, to make it liquid and facilitate well and quickly. So I'm excited about what we have ahead of us for the whole industry. Right. I mean you're not just talking about gcc, you're talking about for the whole industry and for, I mean for your own business interests as well. But I am too. That's one of the fun things about this hobby, this industry. It is evolving faster than ever. It's going to continue to. And you know, one Chris, one comment and then we're going to get your thoughts on that last bit. But here, Jim, define says there is no need to add more options if there is one grading entity that steps up to excellence. SGC was on that path. So there's a, something that to me Jim, sounds like you're calling for a monopoly. It sounds to me like you want monopoly. If one grading entity that steps up, I don't think that's what the hobby wants. But, but I mean some people are probably okay with that. If you, if you can trust one company and they're the only company, I mean, you know, some people are going to be okay with that. Chris, let's go to you thoughts on the last little bit. I feel like there was some stuff there that you could address, but if not, that's good too. Yeah, there was good substance there. I wanted to loop in a comment that I saw from Desert Shield that ties into what Chad was saying. He was calling out a service that I remember vividly being really exciting about 10, eight to 10 years ago. And I'm not sure entirely what happened. So I think it still exists. It was Beckett's RCR raw card review, which was, you know, maybe an earlier like 1.0 version of the soft slab. And every show I went to, I remember I would actually like mark on my calendar when Beckett's Rock Hard Review would go to this card shop in Long beach back when I lived in Southern California. And every time Rock Hard Review would be there, I'd always go because like it was so cool the idea that I could get my cards evaluated within the span of my being there during that afternoon and then also get back a grade that Beckett most likely would honor. I don't remember exactly how it worked. Like if you, if you got your raw card review and then you sent it back with them to encapsulate at that time, they guaranteed the grade. But if you took it off the premises, maybe they didn't. But there was always a good chance they would honor it as long as it hadn't been damaged while in your possession in the soft slab. But I, I wanted to call out RCR just because I remember there would be times I would go to the card shop that was offering the RCR service and people would be lined up hours before the, the event at that shop would even happen primarily because they wanted the Rock Hard Review service. And I, I remember several times not being able to, to pay for, I wanted to pay for it. I came there ready to buy the service and they, and they, they filled up the graders time schedule before I got a chance to even submit my card. So I used to love that. I thought that was such a cool service, especially like sort of the real time aspect of it. And I know they've done it at least some shows I've been at in the not so distant past the last few years. But I wanted to call that out from Desert Shield and bring that into the discussion. It's a proof of concept. I think it's proof that there is definitely a demand for this type of service. It is exactly Chris. And we had, we had that has come up tonight in, in some context already. But it is certainly what it is proof of concept. Like you said. I think it is the, the, the difference. One of the differences was was that, and I think it's still offered. But I remember being set up at the Toronto Expo in 2016 and Beckett was there doing their RCR, their raw card reviews in the, in the semi rigids and man it was, it was very easy to get a 10A Beckett 10 that weekend out of the RCR and then you could take it back and they would, they would, or send it in, they would hard slab. It was also a solution for Beckett to offer their services without having to bring the slabbing machines with them and the whole grading operation, it was sort of a, a stopgap solution to that and another revenue stream where they could do, they could basically get you twice on the same card. It was a lot cheaper. But then you could, you could submit it again for hard slab. Now on how that worked though, Chris, if you got the card back from them at the card show in an RCR holder and, and you, and it came back like a 95 or, or 10 or favorable that you wanted to hard slab it, you couldn't leave their table. You had to open it there and give it right back to them and say, okay, now please take it away and get it hard graded. But instead of paying them 50 or $100 to slab it, you pay them 20, whatever 10 or $25 to kind of figure out if that card was going to get the grade you wanted it to get first. All that said, I agree with you to a degree that it does prove that the hobby is open to this soft slab because not only that, RCRs trade on the set. There's a secondary market for that. You don't, they don't all go for hard slabbing. They change hands in that, in that format itself. So that's why that is one indicator to me that gcc, what Chad is doing, what Joe Davis in Atlanta is doing, there's legs for these sorts of services. I think there's some legs for it. Again, it's not going to be for everybody, but I think there's, it has some legs. So Chad, do you want to respond? Do you have anything on all this now? No, it's, it's great to hear the, the conversation and just hear, you know, us talking about new things that can be solutions. I, I just love that you guys are bringing this into the public, you know, so we can all discuss it. The negative, the positive. It's great because that's how it, that's how it evolves and becomes a, a permanent fixture. So I love this and. Okay, thank you. Glad you do K here, this is, I just want to see how. Well, this is only about 8 minutes old. K said emphasis on professional pre grade. This company being. We're talking about Chad now and gcc, this company is backed by a senior grading executive, not someone trying to do this on their own. For fun or, you know, and I'll pair. I'll. I'll ad lib or for the first time or with just being, you know, Joe average collector. Average Joe collector Jeremy Lee. Starting a great A grading company, which I might do one day. We'll see. But someone who, you know, is just starting the. Starting a grading company. I think Chad does have some background here, which is, you know, some. Which is very worth considering. It's. I'm not gonna say it's the end all, be all. And I, As I said before, I'm not familiar with your work, Chad, so I'd like to see it so I could understand whether or not I would believe in what you do, but that's. That. That just hasn't happened and hopefully it will. And I'll see. Are you guys, Are you. Is GCC gonna have a presence at the national next. Next month? Yeah, next month in Chicago? Yeah, we'll be there. We'll be there. Absolutely. And what. To what extent will you be there? Walking the floor or what? Yeah, for this, this show, I want to be walking the floor. That way I can have a better presence with dealers and get to them. I've experienced in the show circuit that being behind a table and expecting dealers to get to you is. Is a lot to ask. So one thing I want to bring into this show circuit is that ability to be accessed by the dealers, and that's what I plan on doing. So we're going to be moving around the show. The show. And I'm planning on interacting a lot throughout the show on the floor. All right, good, good. Well, I'm. Listen, I mean, I wish you all the best, Chad. Innovation, trying something new. I do. I wish you the best with what you're doing. The jury is out whether or not I'm going to use GCC myself, but I'm, I'm. I'm definitely curious about what it is. Not about what it is. What it what? Well, yeah, what it. What it is, what it will be, what these stickers look like on the cards themselves. And, you know, I'm not somebody who buys cards to grade and sell. I. I don't know if I've ever really bought a raw card with the intention of. Of grading it, to flip it. And I know the guys who do that, you know, raw to grade. That's a business model that is very strong out there that people are making a lot of money on, and I could probably make them a lot of money if I were doing that, too. It's just not what I want to spend my time doing. So what. Let me ask you this then on that note. What is just again, I know we've touched on, but what is the, what are the, the top one, two or three use cases for GCC in your mind when you went to your partners, your employees, your family, whoever it is that you kind of bounce this off of when you were thinking about it, what were the top use cases again? And if you've already stated these, I apologize, I don't hear everything you say as I'm, as I'm multitasking here, but because I'm thinking like what it is. Yeah, I'll let you answer. What are the top use cases? The biggest case is people who have collections of cards and they don't know what to do with them, they don't know where to go and they don't know who to trust. So this, this filters out those cards, puts them in holders where you know where your value is and then you can take the next level, whether it's passing it down, moving and selling it, whatever it may be. So that's a big, big area that we see people needing help. And that can be a lot of levels of people not knowing what they have or even people with a lot of experience, they're just not sure how to figure out the value. And they can't take to someone they trust who's not interested in buying it to sell. Then the other case is the cost effective. I can't afford to send all my cards for encapsulation. What do I do with these cards that I can't sell raw for more than 10% of what I feel like I should be getting? And that's a big case too, we see is being able to, I humbly say this, but our reputation and ability to consistently grade those things and back it with that verification, the comfort and security gives you the confidence to then go forward with that. So it's like you mentioned, it's not three guys out of a garage or something like that. And a lot of us have experience, but do you have that ability to back it up with the guarantees and everything you need to fall in place so that at the end of the day I can just trust this and blindly trust it so that I can move with it. So we have a lot of people that want to move product and that leads to the next person who's going into the show, the national, and they've got cards and they think they're worth money and they are worth money. But the dealers, they're trying to talk to don't have the time of day because they're moving and they're making sales, most likely with slabs. So we want to help those collections not have to spend an arm and a leg to identify those value targets so that they can then enter the market to dealers who are. Their pain point is I don't have time. How can I identify cards for anyone who even comes in my shop? I can't, I don't have time to go through all of it. So I need a service to go through that. And we've experienced a lot of dealers who don't, even though they've had a service and they've charged for it, they don't want to do that because their time is better spent in other places. So those pain points of being able to get through inventories, whether you're a collector and it's your collectible collective inventory or your dealer inventory and getting through those to figure out what the best option is. And that's why I separate that from, you know, we wouldn't tell you not to encapsulate, but if you're a collector, what, what do I have in here that's valuable? So those are, those are the, I would say our three biggest use areas. Okay, well, appreciate that. Chris. Chris Hoge. Chris, it's almost like you're, you are Chris Hoge, also known as Chris McGill. Kind of backwards there. Chris Any and, and Chad, I want to thank you for coming on and share, you know, sharing your thoughts on the industry, the hobby and you know, taking some of the hot, the more difficult questions. You are, you know, as you probably know, you are starting up a new company in a very, in a very passionate industry with a, with a group of very passionate collectors who take, who all kind of feel like we have ownership of this, of this landscape and environment and, and not, not everyone is going to be kind. I think, you know, that not everyone, A lot of people, you know, there, there's just not a, not everyone's going to be kind out there. So I, I, I, I give you kudos for, you know, stepping into that arena, taking a chance at something that you love. I think that that's great. And you know, I wish you the best, man. I, I honestly, I truly and honestly wish you the best, just like Chris said earlier. And you know, I, I hope to see you five years from now thriving and, and, and, but not because you chatter thriving. I hope, if you are thriving, I hope that you've offered something that the hobby really appreciates and values for the price that they are paying for the service. That's really what it comes down to. Can we get price for this? Can we get value for the service? And so I think that's, I think it's great, man. And like, like our buddy upstate says pursuit of happiness is everything. You know, if you're chasing a dream like I'm doing, like many people are doing, Chris, like, we all, we work in this industry. We work in the hobby. And I can honestly say I am 100, living the dream. Like there's nothing, there's nothing like it. I could not, I cannot, I can't imagine a better life. Maybe my name was Michael Jordan. I don't know if I, if I even want to go there. But, you know, so I, I hope that you are too and that this and that it works out and that you're bringing value to the hobby that it didn't even know it needed. Needed. And maybe that's a good way to put it. So thanks for coming on to you. And if there's. Is there anything else that you want to talk about, Chad? Any other topics? I feel like I'm, I'm saying goodbye to you, but I don't. I want to give you the opportunity to, if there's anything else that you wanted to talk about or mention or Chris, if you have any more topics or questions for, for Chad. So back to you, Chad, and maybe we will wrap up your segment here. No, no, I just. Thank you so much. I feel absolutely blessed to be here with you guys. And I, I, you know, call it, call it unkind, whatever. Everybody's being honest and that's where these types of things starts, like I mentioned earlier. So I really, really appreciate it and look forward to, to more conversations like this. And I, I think we're, we believe in it and we're seeing a good response and like you said, we're new and we're seeing such a great response. So that, that tells me we're doing, doing some good things and we're going to keep on doing that, but we're also going to listen. So this was a great platform to do that and I can't thank you enough for giving, you know, me the chance to sit down with you and, and just introduce myself to you guys. So we're not new anymore and we just build from here. So thank you so much, Jeremy and Chris and everybody else. We really appreciate you. Yeah, for sure, Chad. Upstate David says Chad is a great guy. Thank you, Chad. So you are not an unknown entity out there, that's for sure. So. Okay. Well, Chad, thank you for coming on. I appreciate it. K says this was valuable. Yeah. Listen, thanks guys, for. For. Well, thank you, Chad, for joining us. Thank you. Thank you. Have a great night, guys. You too. Thanks for tuning in and being a part of the sports cards live community. Don't forget to, like, subscribe. And most of all, hit. Keep collecting more great content to come. Sports cars is a lifestyle.