The WNBA Card Podcast: Why Team Collecting Makes the Hobby Better | Griff's (@rockyscardboard) New York Liberty Collection

Foreign. What's going on everybody? Welcome back to the WNBA Card Podcast here on the Stacking Slabs Network. Hosted by my good friend Caitlin at Cold Lunch Cards and presented by our good friends at Card Ladder, the official data provider of the WNBA Card podcast and the broader Stacking Slabs network. Today we continue to move forward on the team collecting combination and we have to hit Caitlin's least favorite team, yes, the dreaded New York Liberty. And she has an incredible collector on to talk about his passion for the liberty and collecting. Today Caitlin is joined by by Griff at Rocky's Cardboard on the Instagram machine. They get into a awesome conversation about the Liberty cards collecting and the rich history. You will enjoy this episode, I know it. Make sure you're following us at the WNBA Card Pod on the Instagram machine. If you want to show your support for the broader Stacking Slabs Network, hit the follow button, tell a damn friend. Run on over the Patreon Group. It's Griff Rocky's Cardboard. Let's get into it. Welcome back loyal listeners of the Stacking Slabs Podcast to season five, episode six of the WNBA Card Podcast. My name is Caitlin. I go by old lunchcards, mostly on the Instagram machine, but also on Twitter, x Discord, a couple other places. And today I'm super excited about today's team Collector episode. This one has been a long time in the making. Not only have I known this guest now for a while through social media and it's kind of our first time talking, but this is about my least favorite team in the wnba and that would be the New York Liberty. And I'm excited to talk to somebody who loves the Liberty, loves the players on Liberty and has an awesome collection of New York Liberty cards. So today we have the one, the only Griff. He goes by RockiesCardboard on Instagram and elsewhere. He is known for running amazing stack sales, a really good Sabrina collection, some great mellow cards, and for his adorable dog of which his namesake of his collection account is named Rocky's Cardboard. So Griff, welcome to the pod. In honor of you, I did wear my one piece of Liberty gear. Gear. I love that. For folks who can't say it, it says death, taxes and one legged marine because you know you're guaranteed that in life. So I guess why don't we start with you, Griff. How are you doing? How are you feeling about being on the pod today? Well, thank you for having me, Caitlin. I've been super, super excited to be on here since you asked me. I like you said I'm Griff, I'm at Rocky's Cardboard on X, on Instagram, on Discord. I think I'm something else, honestly. But in the actual Discord Room on Rocky's Cardboard. And I'm just so excited. I'm even more excited because I forgot that you hated the Liberty so much, but at least you show appreciation for Maureen Johannes as it's due. But thank you for having me. Yeah, absolutely. I'm really excited to kind of get into your fandom, get into your collecting style, and get into something that I think kind of sets you apart from a lot of the guests that we've had on so far, which is that you wear multiple hats. Not only do you collect, but you resell. And I think that's kind of how we got to know each other. So I think it's going to add a nice little angle to today's conversation. But before we kind of get into your personal fandom and identity as a Liberty collector, I want to let in the audience a little bit behind the curtain with the fact that when I reached out to Griff, I asked him if he wanted to do the LA Sparks episode, to which I was met with no, but I would love to do the Liberty. And I kind of want to give you the stage, Griff, to talk about why. Why not the Sparks? Why. Why did I ask you about the Sparks and what's up with the Liberty right now? So, as much as I would have loved to oblige to the Sparks podcast, so I'm a Sparks season ticket holder. I live in Southern California. I guess I should have said I live in Southern California. Last two seasons, I went to almost every single home game. But there's a problem with the team this year, and that is they traded Rikia Jackson, and that was one of a multitude of moves they made in like the last year and a half that I'm just kind of over them right now. I've gone to a few games. Love Kelsey Plum. She actually went to Arrival High School when I was attending. So I. I've always loved Kelsey and they've got a fun team, but it's also. I won't get into it. I think they're about where I expected them to be, but the Liberty are the team that really got me into wnba. Love Sabrina, love Stewie, love Jonquill, and them all being on that same team. That's kind of when I started really following. I've always kind of followed the W from a distance, if you will, but I actually went to a Sparks game my Gosh, it must have been four years ago, five years ago now, before I had season tickets and it was against the Liberty and saw Marine Johannes play who I'm like, okay, she's electric. Have to look more into her. And. And that kind of really started my fandom. I used to be a. What's the right word for it? I guess at. At the point, super fan of the New York Knicks. About 15 years ago when Carmelo Anthony played for the Knicks, I watched every single New York Knicks game that Carmelo wore in excersey. Carmelo Anthony is my favorite athlete of all time. And so it just kind of felt right. I used to watch all these Knicks games. I'm like, I'll root for the Liberty. This will be my team. I love it. They look like they're going to be good. I grew up in San Diego. The Padres have been terrible my whole life and never won anything. Like, let me root for a good team for once. So. So that's kind of how I came into it. And I think what is unique, especially since this is, you know, W but also cards related podcast. I got into the collecting aspect because I kind of hit a wall with my Carmelo Anthony collection and I was just like, let me just dive head first in the WNBA rip boxes and I'll learn all the. By ripping and collecting the W. And so I just started going crazy back in like 2022, 2021, 2022. It was a lot of fun. I. I always do that with cards too. It's like if I want to learn a sport, I just start collecting that sport. So that's kind of how I, I got into it. Gotcha. I think it's a great intersection too for the WN cards. It's. It's a. It's a great place to collect in, I think in the hobby. All right, I completely agree. I think a lot of what you talked about there is a story that a lot of folks can resonate, whether it's hitting and kind of feeling stale in the hobby. So redefining or entering a new lane. I think that's something really that maybe a lot of people are scared to admit that happens and that you have to deal with as a collector and to find a place like the WNBA card collecting space that's so welcoming and that has a lot of room for you to kind of breathe and figure out what you like can be really powerful to your PC. So that's a pretty cool story. And I want to talk to you about Rekia. I want to talk to you about your ideas on the sparse. Today's episode is about the Liberty, so we'll stick with that. And I just want to kind of hone in. I know you kind of talk about your origin story, but what. At what point did the cards turn into? I'm going to be a Liberty collector. Not necessarily. Like, I know you got your Rakia PC, which has some massive pieces, but, like, at what point did you decide, you know, there's this whole pool of players you can choose from. Why the Liberty cards, did they stick out? Was it because you were becoming a fan of the team? Was it an investment decision, a combination? And kind of just walk me through your thoughts on that. Yeah, I think it was kind of both. I also think the whole 2020 prism Sabrina craziness and the hype of that, that kind of brought a lot of people into the W collecting too. Whether whether that was for the W or for money making purposes back then, that was a crazy time in the hobby. But I thought the Prism cards that year were awesome. I loved collecting great players. So having Stewie, John Quell Sabrina, it was just like it just made sense to start collecting those cards. And honestly, back then, I was buying every single cool WNBA card I could find. Like, I'd go to shows and I would just look for WNBA cards. I didn't really even care who it was. It's like, cool. A color match of Tina Charles. I'm picking it up. Like, I was just buying everything. And so then it got to a point, I was like, okay, let me. Let me start focusing a little bit more. And then eventually got it to, you know, Liberty forward and then rekia forward. That was kind of where I was going with it. So, yeah, I'll leave it at that. No, I like that. I like the use of forward as well. I think I'm going to adopt that, that kind of language. But you kind of touched on what I was about to talk about, which is this idea of players and runs and the fact that maybe you're a newer Liberty fan. You know, Liberty have been around since the inception of the league. They're one of the eight original teams. They've had a lot of success that hasn't necessarily resulted in rings and championships until recently. But you know, some big players, we're talking Teaspoon, Becky Hammond, Tina Charles. You mentioned the current ones of Jonquil, Stewie, Sabrina. Do you think that you feel more connected to the New York Liberty franchise and its history? Maybe the New York culture, maybe, you know, that kind of aspect or do you feel tied to the players that define the franchise, or do you kind of see them as synonymous? I'd say synonymous. And the reason I would say that. So I was lucky enough to go to the game, the Sparks versus the Liberty, maybe three or four weeks ago, and it was the 30th anniversary game of the inaugural tip off. And it was so cool. And it was. The neat thing was at halftime, they recognized that Sparks team and all. They did. And Lisa Leslie's there, but they also had Liberty players there, Right. And I don't know, to me, the NBA wouldn't do that. They would just recognize the home team and they'd let the other team do their own thing back home. Right? And so I thought that was so cool. They had the Liberty there and just showed the history. I honestly learned a lot that game of things I didn't know a lot of it. You know, very intricate details. You'd know if you were a season ticket holder going to those games. Um, and I just respect that history because really set off what we have now. And to think from where it grew in 30 years and probably in the next 30 years, it's going to be even, you know, crazier to think about where that's going. So I would say I really enjoy having that where. I love the storied franchise, right. Of the. Of the New York Liberty. I love the storied franchise of Los Angeles Sparks. And then there's people that are coming in and they're like, I love the Portland Fire. I'm going to be the day one fan. I know nothing about the wnb. I'm coming in and I'm a Portland Fire fan. I think that's so cool in. In all walks of life where you come into the fandom. But I, I think even after Sabrina leaves, Stewie leave, I. I think I'll still just continue to root for the Liberty. It just helps that they have a lot of players that I really enjoy to watch. Having Marine helps my new favorite players on their team, which, you know, I won't mention yet, but I'll mention later on the podcast. So I just, I. I think it's one of those things where in the NBA, I followed Carmelo Anthony, wnba. I think I'm just gonna be a Liberty plus Rekia Jackson fan. Hell yeah. Maybe one day Rakia will join the Liberty and then your dreams will come true. And that would be incredible. I would be broke buying all of the cards. Right. Okay, well, we'll pray for your wallet if that happens. But yeah, that's, that's funny. I, I think, like, just the, it's kind of like the stars aligning in New York, and I think having the star power plus the team itself is something powerful and it draws in a lot of different kind of fans. I have a question for you about rooting for a fandom that's so dominant, or at least seen as like a front runner in recent years. Do you ever feel like cheering for one of those strong, dominant teams changes how people maybe perceive your fandom or your card collecting? Sometimes for me, I feel like when I'm a fan of some team that's doing really well or I really like a player and they happen to be playing really well and that means that their cards are going up in value, people kind of like, doubt my fandom. Do you ever feel like Liberty fans get that kind of slack? That's how I've seen kind of Liberty fans are treated is they kind of get thrown into that same bucket as Hoover fans. Do you agree? Do you disagree? Like, what's your opinion? I think it's unfair because they do not have the rings to back it up unless we're counting Commissioner's Cups, which they now have two as of last week. But I just don't think it's fair when they don't have the rings to back it up. It's, it's, I get it. They go after the big names, especially in recent years. I think Vegas has had them favored to win the championship preseason two or three out of the last three years. But, like, let's throw a little more hate towards the Aces. Come on. I, I, I don't get it. Because you, you can go collect, you know, Chelsea Gray, and no one's going to say anything, but as soon as you grab, you know, anything with the Liberty on, doesn't matter who it is. It could be, it could be Laney Hamilton. And so, oh, front runner, right? No. 1 championship. And they shouldn't have fired their coach, but they did, which we can get into that later. Well, I want to get into all of this and, like, I have to let the listeners know that I'm biting my tongue and I'm trying to respect your Liberty fandom so much right now, but I'm like, I'm like, oh, yeah, I, I definitely dish out the Liberty hate. So if we could pass some of it onto the Aces, I'm all for that as well. So we're about, I just think that if, if you're gonna judge someone by who they collect, it should be The Aces, which I, I really also can't talk because I collect a ton of Asia Wilson too. But it's like, I just, I don't get it with the Liberty. I get they have the big city appeal, they have big star power appeal. And also, I think last year it was very deserved. And if they would, would have won the title last year, I would have said yes. I mean, they were signing everybody. I mean, they, they signed Saw to issue. So maybe I'm overthinking it. Maybe they really do deserve more hate. Okay. And episode right there and the episode right there. We have nothing more. No, I, Just kidding. I'm just kidding. Okay, I will, I will pause that conversation there. We're going to go forward, but we'll come back to a lot of what Griff's touching on. The next question that I have is something that I've asked each of the guests this season, which is if you had to try to describe the identity of the New York Liberty or your franchise in three words or less, do you think you can do it? And if you could, what would you say? I, When I read that question, that was one that I really had to think about. It's, it's a tough one, I think. I, I think three words is difficult. And not to avoid your question, but what I, I would say I'll, I'll answer historic. Okay. Number one. Historic. I, I think that's probably the first one that comes to mind. I think other people would say front runners. I would say storied. Okay. And then I think for the last one, I would say underachieved, because I think if you're gonna have the history, you're gonna be a storied franchise. They need to win more titles. And I think they're coming, to be quite honest with you. And I think the way I would describe their identity recently is their scouting department is unreal. And they have a great relationship with a lot of the overseas teams, it seems. I mean, that's not out there publicly, but if you look at the rosters, Right. Phoenix has a great scouting department overseas. I think the Liberty have that, and I think they're close to putting it together. And I think, I think when they win another one or two championships, it's going to be like the Knicks this year, and they want it because it's just like the city wants more than the one they just got. Right? So I, I, I think that's what I would say. Yeah, I, I like that. I like the way you describe it. I think there's such a. Maybe it's because I've just been perpetrating it in my own mind, but there's such a stereotype of liberty collectors, Liberty fans. And to hear the way that you almost felt like you gave two different framings of your second word, storied versus whatever. Like, I, I think that's a good way to capture it, so I'll let it slide with three plus one words on the question. But I, I like that. I, I like that answer. Okay. Before we. Well, I was, I was just going to say to compare it to something else if I'm, if I'm sensing how much you hate them. Right. So I, I mentioned when we were talking earlier, I, I've grown up a Padres fan. I cannot stand the Dodgers. Okay, The Dodger, that, that's the rival. But the Dodgers are so good. And now I, I mean, it's just gotten to the point where it's hard to hate them because you just expect them to win everything now that they have Otani and all these. But I don't think the Liberty have got to that point yet. They have the players, but they haven't got to that point where they've won two out of three or, you know, three out of the last five. I think once they get to that point, then you can add, you know, like the word dominant or dynasty or something like that. Yeah, I think if you removed Aja Wilson from the equation, you'd be there, you know, immediately. Like, it wouldn't be even a question. But, yeah, she's kind of proven a roadblock for everybody in this league. So, yeah, that would be my, my one take on that. I think I have written down that I think the, the Liberty have been to six finals before they captured their title. That's a lot of six. That's a lot of playoffs to not win, man. That's. That's a lot. So I'm glad that they finally got there, but. Good God, at what price for me? At what price? But let's, let's move to a question that maybe unites us a little bit more. How about that before we get on? Really? Yeah. A more uniting question. A lot of this season in this podcast, what I'm trying to do is just promote women's sports, bottom line. Like, I think women's sports card collecting is an underrated niche in the hobby that needs more space, needs more people talking about it. And so I want to ask you, kind of like looking beyond just the Liberty or just beyond your Rekia Jackson PC, your Sabrina PC what is being a fan of women's sports and women's sports cards mean to you more broadly? Well, I saw that, and I thought that that was such a great question because I think as a whole, the. The tide is turning. Right. Women's sports is finally getting its due, where it's reaching the mainstream in various places. Right. And I mean, as far as the W goes, I enjoy watching the WNBA a lot more than I do the NBA now, especially regular season. But then you have so many stars across the world in women's sports. Take, for example, this week, Wimbledon. And I don't know if you follow tennis at all, but Alex Yala is the first player, not. Not just woman, first player ever in Filipino history to make it to the round of 16. And it's like, that is something that needs to be defined in a headlining story. Right. I don't need to hear about LeBron James being pitched by the 76ers. Okay. Let's. Let's put some real sports stories that are like, that's a story that's going to inspire people across the country. Right, Right. And I think that's the thing that's the coolest to me is there's a whole generation of men and women that are hearing these stories that we're not hearing them as much in the past. Right. And I just love it. I think it's awesome. I think there's so many great stories that we're hearing now. There's so many great leagues to watch. I love watching Trinity Rodman. Love watching a lot of the tennis. I watch a lot of women's tennis, and the W is awesome, and it's in a great place, and I think it's going to keep growing, and it should. So I guess I think that answers your question. I think it's really an overall thing. And to me, sports as a whole is the stories. It's the moments. It's like I'll check a box score all day, every day of any sport, and I think this kind of goes hand in hand with cards as well. This is just kind of a personal opinion. But those players that have those moments that have those stories that resonate and connect with people, that's who you want to go collect. That's the card that's gonna jump 10x. Right. There's so many things with that. Right. And. And I think it's amazing that that is starting to be, you know, shined on women's sports more. And I think it's just going to continue to keep growing. And growing. I just love it. It's awesome. More sports to watch. Keep putting more sports on my tv, please. Absolutely. Yeah, we can keep delivering that and we'll all be happy. And I kind of want to talk about. You touched on it. This concept of connecting sports and fandom to cards and why we all collect them. It's because it ties us to a moment, it ties us to a person, it ties us to a game time in history, all these different things. So I kind of want to get into your collecting philosophy and approach. You mentioned, you know, you've got kind of this liberty forward plus rekia forward philosophy. But how would you kind of define your liberty collecting today? That's a great question. Because I've really recently been thinking about thinning out my PC a bit. I've sold off a few PC pieces recently to fund other ones. And I think as far as collecting philosophy in general, that has changed. So I started collecting in 2003. That's why I collect Carmelo Anthony. His rookie year. Should have collected LeBron. I would be in a nice house right now. But I think to me, as a collector and what you're looking for in the hobby evolves as you evolve and how your life is. Maybe you're really busy in life and it's like cards are on hold. But as someone who I'd call myself an addict of collecting cards, I love collecting cards. There's always something to have to chase. And I've always been about the chase. I'm trying to find the next gem, I'm trying to find the next deal, I'm trying to find the next cool card. So to me, I think my approach really changes and I have different PCs. I don't know if you've had Jason on yet. Almost not yet. Okay. When Jason gets on, I'm sure he'll mention his deep PC that he has, where you're just like, this is deep PC and it's this random tag of something. And I've always loved that about Jason because it's like he has these random things and I'm gonna slab everything because that's just what I need. I need it slab. So I just love hearing that from people too. Like, what do you collect? Why do you collect it? And personally, lately I've been trying to do different runs of things. So one of the things I sent you. Yeah. Was Sabrina's 2020 Prism Rookie Run. I'm trying to get as many as I can in a PSA 10. That's going to change as I get lower and lower on the number numbering. But that's been a fun one. And it's one where it's not something that's just easy. You don't just see one of these out in the wild at a random local show or in a discord or on X. So it's always fun to have something like that in the back of your mind when you're going to shows. And so that's one of my big W chases right now, is looking for those. I think the psychology behind collectors that almost demand a chase or a challenge and then feel compelled to create that challenge and to make it hard. Right. Like you said, this is not something that's an easy pursuit. You can't just, you know, search on ebay and find this any day of the week with a save search. These take real attention, real monitoring to be able to find. And not only that, but you set it at a PSA 10 scale. So it just. I always find it interesting the types of collectors that almost feel the need to challenge themselves more and more. And the way that you do that is through, you know, the reward of the chase. And so as somebody who has zero patience and sucks at a chase, like, I cannot do it because I just get so frustrated. This is good to hear. And I'm so glad that you found something that kind of scratches that itch, if you will. Yeah. And I. And I think now we're entering a area, an area of collecting with the W where I think it's honestly starting to get watered down a bit because now we're starting to see the multiple products. What I always liked about the W's, you have Prism coming out and you hope that it was a really cool image that they put on Prism and you didn't get too many parallels because that's one of my big pet peeves right now with a lot of the. The product is so many parallels, but I think it's just starting to get to a point where it's going to water down quickly and you're really going to need to hone in and focus on what you want. Right. Is it the. And on card autographs? Is it. Hopefully we get game use patches at some point in the future. That would be wonderful. Or is it cool images? Right? Is it the court side? Is it the premier? Is it something along those lines, how to select you really want to collect? Is it all zebras? Is it all golds? Right. So I. I think that is always something I love hearing from other people. Like, what actually are you looking for? Is it something like me where it's like odds are I find one Sabrina a year if I'm lucky. Because it's not just time and place, but it's also like funds. Do I have the funds at the time to pick one of those up? And I, I, I love that. I, I think that is what has kept me collecting cards too and kind of how I mentioned earlier, always learning something, learning new sports, learning new players, learning new product, whatever it is and then meeting people like you. Right Caitlin and, and that's the other aspect of the hobby I think is meeting fellow collectors, sellers, flippers, whatever you want to call them and, and building those relationships and then you help each other out in various ways collecting whatever it is for sure. I just love that about the hobby. Yeah, I mean this place is awesome and I love having these conversations and you kind of pivoted me right into where I wanted to move us, which is this concept that I teased on at the beginning which is that you know, a lot of us collect and we sell, meaning that we sell to either make some money just cause or to fund our own PC. And I want to touc on kind of what it's like being somebody who is building a really serious PC and takes collecting very seriously but also has kind of a hustle on the side to support it. For you personally, how do those kind of sides of the hobby interact with each other? Do you have like, do you prefer one side or the other? Is one more fun? Does one take more time or effort? I guess. What's your opinion on the the two ends of the spectrum? One side is 100% more fun and it's buying cards. And I love buying cards. That's partially why I sell cards, because I like buying cards. I would say I started actually because I wanted to try and level up my PC if you will. It's like, okay, I'm never going to afford that exquisite Carmelo Anthony autograph. Just saving money because it's just not going to happen. I like buying cards too much. I'm going to pick up fifty twenty dollar cards of his before I saved the money to buy one because that's not as fun to me. So I was like, well let me start selling. And so I started selling and that opened up a whole new aspect. I love going through dollar bins, I love value boxing, I love learning new sets. So it, I'd say both are a joy of mine and like I just touched on the relationship aspect. I love the relationship especially on X because that's mainly where I sell, I'm in the middle of a stack sale right now. I've met so many cool people and kind of the way that I approach it, I would say the way I sell cards kind of changes around the tertiary pieces of it as time goes on and kind of adjusting to the market. But I like buying cards to an extent. They're collector's cards, right. I know I buy that I'm going to find someone that wants it because they're a collector. And it's been really cool hunting for people for certain things, right. Because on X I'll have people that reach out, hey, I'm looking for X, Y or Z. Can you find it for me? And I'll look for them, right? Yeah. So it's fun, you know, make a little money on the side, which I then buy more cards with and kind of keeps my personal finances separate from my hobby finance, which is nice. And eventually I'd like to go full time. That's the kind of the goal. I'm 100% self funded, self made in my selling journey. One day I'd like to get that to a point where I own a shop essentially. So just fun. I just, I just love it. It's a great place to be, business wise, relationship wise, friendship wise. Going to card shows, that's the most fun thing you can do in my opinion. I mean, how you can't have more fun than going to a card show, especially if you go with a couple friends. Right? So all of the above. But at the end of the day, I would say buying is more fun. I love buying cards. There's something about it, man. It's got to be like some sort of primal, like. Yeah, energy release in the brain. Because I completely understand what you're saying. But I think selling and collecting creates a lot of tension. It creates a lot of decisions. It, it's almost just like how many choices could you possibly make at all? Like it's just a series of choices. And I kind of want to dive into a choice that I personally find myself at a crossroads with a lot as somebody who both buys, sells and collects cards, which is that maybe I'll buy a card that I bought thinking, oh, somebody else might like this, therefore I'm buying it. And then they kind of sit in this what I like to call purgatory. Maybe you'd sell it, maybe you'd keep it, maybe you'd PC it, maybe you think it's going to go up. It's kind of in this place that it's not stuck in your case, like, this is a forever card. I need this. I've been looking for this. But it's just one of those cards that doesn't necessarily leave immediately either. When you hit one of those cards, those Purgatory cards, how do you decide if it stays in the PC or if it's something you add to your stack? So when you figure out the answer to that, let me know because I 100% feel that I, I actually have some of those right now. So I have some low numbered Asia Wilson autographs that are PSA 10s. And it's like when I bought them, I'm like, oh, this is great. Asia Wilson's the best. She's the goat, in my opinion. I can't go wrong holding these. But then at the same time it's like, okay, but I'm sure these are going to go up. She won MVP last year. They won the championship. You know, whatever, right? And I will post them. But it's also the point where it's like, I hope nobody offers on this because, like, I kind of just want to keep it. Right. And I would say my WNBA stuff, I'm a lot more protective of. I'm trying to not be, but I'm a lot more protective of it. NBA, mlb, NFL, any of that kind of stuff, whatever. Unless it's like a key key card. Right. And I can find another one. But I'd say, I guess to answer your question, if it's something you know you'll never see again, odds are you'll never see it again. Or if you do, it's going to be years from now. And who knows the value of it. Those are the ones I tend to, if I do post them for sale, price them higher or be ones that I'm. This is in my PC and one of the other cards is. I don't know this is even the right time to bring it up. I know you have another time to talk about Grail card, but I, I sent you a picture of Sabrina Portside 2024. And that card, I think hits this conversation perfectly. I've posted that card for sale. You may have even asked me about it at one point a couple years ago. Yeah. And I was very high on it. And I'm like, well, if someone buys it, that's fine. I think the estimated print runs of the courtside zebras probably like less than 10. I haven't seen many that have popped up. And so I would post it every now and then, like, okay, if I sell it, this is going to Fund another one of the 2020 prism Sabrinas and I'll just tuck that money aside. But that is a car. I have 100 officially, 100% officially said that's PC. I'm never posting that card again. It's in there and I just think it's the eye appeal. I think it's the scarcity of it. The three point champion trophy doing the night night. It, it just hits everything for me on, on a card that goes into the PC. So that's something I, I think that's a perfect example. That's one that was in purgatory for a while and now it's like, no, this one's PC. Oh, I love that. I kind of want to hit on this card while we have it up, if you don't mind. I kind of want to hear it. I want to hear the story of how you got this card, maybe how you discovered it. And to your point, there's been this proliferation of parallels in modern WNBA collecting alongside all other lines of collecting. And so a zebra parallel is something different. It's new. We don't have zebra parallels going back to 1997, but there's something special about them. Maybe. Could you talk about what set the zebra parallel apart for you? Maybe compared to, say, getting any other parallel that's available? I think that I love the unknown of how many there actually are and if Panini actually prints less of the court side. Because we don't know. I mean, Panini doesn't release an odd sheet like Tops or Fanatic products do. And so I would, literally when I, when I got this card, I would just track it. Okay, how many are on ebay? How many are confirmed sold? And I think it took a few months before like one or two were sold. And I just think the eye appeal of it really pops compared to other cards. And for some reason, the zebra on this card just looks really cool. I don't, I don't know why. Maybe it's just my opinion. But I just love the scarcity, the eye appeal and I, I think it is a worthy parallel to have. Obviously it's been in the NBA cards now for a lot longer and I think now it's kind of being a bit overdone the way they're doing the animal prints because they're also starting to print more of them. Yeah, you can tell they're not as case hy if you will, but I, I just think they're a welcome addition to the WNBA line if they keep them as scarce as they have been. Especially the first year select, I thought they're very scarce, very hard to hit cards. Absolutely. This, this card, when you talk about eye appeal, I think eye appeal is a concept that is not talked about enough, period, in ultra modern collecting. It's something that is almost exclusively talked about in vintage collecting. And I. I just don't think we should keep it that way. I think the eye appeal, like you said of this card, the design elements, the shine, the photo, the all the aspects of it contributes to a larger picture of saying, I think this card looks really fucking good. So, yeah, I like that you call that out. Yes, I agree with you. I think eye appeal is not something many modern collectors or people that are talking about modern cards talk about. But I can just say this. From my experience, selling stuff I appeal always sells so much better than perceived rarity or rarity. So that's why I like this card, because it's I appeal plus perceived rarity. Right. I mean, you can, you can have a. I think I owned a Sabrina Monopoly. I think they called it like the Brown Parallels. Like brown out of 124 or something, or 124 copies I had in a PSA 10. Nobody wanted that card. But you'd go on and you'd see the Monopoly gold, which are out of 500, weirdly enough, in that set, the. One of the golds, I think the millionaire gold or something, those would sell all day and they're like double what the pound is selling for. So whoever says I appeal doesn't matter. It 100% matters and should be a conversation. I love this. I love talking about cards that look nice. I think, like, me and you share that common ground. I think how we kind of like, got talking was that I just like the type of cards that you picked out to put up for sale. So it makes sense that you'd focus on good eye appeal. So I'm glad that we got to talk about that kind of, like, grail that you have in your collection. Thanks for sharing that, Griff. Yeah. Yeah. Thanks for not buying it from me. Yeah, yeah. Maybe, maybe, maybe I'll find my own. But I think when I was asking you about that card just to defend myself, because I know that I've said a lot of things about Sabrina in the past. I think there's a certain kind of respect that goes to somebody that, you know, takes a piece of my. My fandom heart. She. She had the dagger. I was in person when she hit the three in the finals, and. Amazing. And there's just something about Showing my respect to somebody who just, you know, they shut me right up. Like, she shut me up, and I got to pay my respect in some way. So at the time, that card did speak to me because, like you said, the eye appeal. So that's why I reached out. It was not because I am a Sabrina collector or a Liberty. That was not the reason. I thought you might have a secret PC. Yeah. Can you imagine this whole time I've been, like, accumulating Liberty cards. That would be a great time to break that news right now. So, yeah, we will not be breaking that news today. I think I'd have to be on something else to talk about that kind of thing happening. Okay, let's move on. Let's talk about one of the segments that we have each week, which is around the emotional side of collecting. I mentioned that what's interesting about the New York Liberty is that they've been successful. They've spent nearly three decades chasing a championship, and they finally got it. I mentioned they had six finals appearances before breaking through a couple years ago. I want to ask you, as a Liberty fan, when your team is almost expected to compete for a championship every year, you mentioned Vegas odds. What kind of creates your emotional attachment to the team? What kind of gets you excited besides that? The. The notion of winning, or is it all about winning? To me, it's not. To me, it's more, what are the new things and fun stuff coming out? Right. So I'm pretty sure Sabrina hasn't signed now in two years maybe, but the addition of. I know someone you will show appreciation for as you already have on your shirt. Marine Johannes. And a lot more product. Yeah. Super appealing. I love Marine Johannes. I think she is underappreciated in so many facets. I'm so glad this year she's been getting more minutes. Unfortunately, it's because Sabrina was hurt, but she's balling out. I mean, she's awesome, and she's so fun to watch. I. I think the emotional side of it is more looking forward to what could come out. Who's gonna sign? Who's gonna be a player? Are. Are they gonna do any kind of team cards? Right? And I'm very excited. I'll just say this now. My new favorite player is Pauline Astier. She is insane. Watching her in person play the Sparks, I'm like, she's. She's insane. It's my new favorite player. Love her. And I cannot wait to start picking up tons of her cards next year when next year's sets come out. So that kind of stuff is what really fuels me. Yeah. Because it's like, okay, take, take someone like Paige. Right. Paige is awesome in the MVP race, you know, up there, top five player in the league, top 10 player in league, whatever. You, wherever you want to fall in that argument. Right. But I, I don't feel any attachment to collecting page cards. She's not on the Liberty. She's not someone that I watched in college, unfortunately, mainly because of Yukon and all that. That's. That's a different. That's a different story. But, but someone like that, it's like, I don't necessarily get the excitement. It would be kind of like you with the Sabrina card. Just like if I find a really cool page card, then I would love to, you know, chase it and pick it up and put it in my collection. But someone like Pauline, I'm just emotionally attached to. I need the next thing on the Liberty. I think she's someone that I'm going to just PC and collect a ton of her cards, but also hope she takes that next step and becomes a great player in the league. She's got the Liberty on, on her jersey. That's going to make her cards go up. Right. All that kind of stuff. So I'd say that's kind of the emotional side to me, it's not really the winning. Oh, perfect. So we'll take that. We'll take that. The winning helps, but that's never something, especially from a PC side of things. The winning is, isn't something that is a factor in my collecting. I mean, collecting Carmelo Anthony for 20 years will do that to you. Yeah. So it's never been something that side of it, emotionally, is never been a part. I think from a business side, when I go to buy cards to sell to other people, I think winning is huge. Right. I think when I, I don't watch much baseball, I used to back in the day, but I would, I, I would buy all these different players and, oh, this will go up. They're going to be a great player now. I just, it's like Yankees, Red Sox, Cubs, Dodgers. You buy those winning teams because odds are there's fans and the fans are going to collect and want something cool in their collection. So that, that's kind of for me. No, but I know for a ton of people, that's got to be a huge factor, 100%. And once again, you've segued me perfectly to where I wanted to bring you, which is speaking of fans and fandom, the Liberty have always had this very passionate fan base. When I see a Liberty fan, I know you're a serious WNBA fan. Over the past few years though, it feels like that franchise has completely exploded because of what we discussed with stardom, with the championship Barclays center and just the growth of the WNBA in general. What has kind of the Liberty card collecting community felt like over these past couple years to you? Has it changed? Does it feel different post championship? What are the vibes? You know, I, I don't think that I can really speak to that and mainly because I feel like I collect in such a bubble as far as WNBA cards go. And it's actually something that I'd love to ask you more about and what you've experienced in going to card shows. But out here, lucky to find a card that's not Caitlin or Paige. I mean, it's, it's very difficult to find out here. There's, there's some people I've met locally, you probably know them too, that are big W collectors. But it's more the shared love of the wnba. It's not necessarily, hey, I collect the Liberty. I think it's more people I've met that know ipc, Sabrina or no, I would buy a cool Liberty card that I've met and that's what I really appreciate community wise, like Jason. Okay, so you're going to have Jason on. I bought both of Jason's Sabrina inscribed jerseys off of him. I was like, Jason, I need those. And he ran them on whatnot for me when he used to do whatnot streams and I did and I won them. And it's like that's the kind of thing that I find cool about the WNBA community. A lot of times people are more than willing to, to help you get grail pieces or collection pieces. I think I, I helped you get the one card I had. It was a teaspoon, the T shirt. Teaspoon. Yeah, Gold for your, your PC. Because you're like, I think the one you had wasn't in a Lynx uniform or something. Yeah. And I was like, yeah, of course. Let's. Let's figure it out. So that's the aspect that I love as a whole. So I know it's not Liberty fandom, if you will, but more just the W collecting aspect. I think it's awesome. It's a great community. So I think it's interesting. I like to ask each guest like about the geographical component to collecting. I think a lot of collecting is so tangible. It's about what you can hold in your hand. You Talk about how the experience of a card show is unmatched. It's just something different. And so you mentioned that you're on the opposite coast of where your fandom lives. New York city is not SoCal. So when you're not local to say your. Your team's locality has. Following the team from afar almost created collecting. Make it more powerful, I suppose, is what I'm trying to ask. Does. Does distance make the heart grow fonder when it comes to cards? Or is it. Do you see it as more of a negative that you're not in New York so you can't get all the New York cards at every show? I would say from a fandom perspective, it's made my heart very fond because none of the games are blacked out and I can watch every single Liberty game on League pass versus. If I lived in New York, I couldn't. But, yeah, I. I think like I was telling you, when I first started collecting, it was like, yeah, every show I'm finding a Liberty card, I'm buying it. I'm putting in my PC nowadays, it's so rare. And I think if I was in New York, I would definitely find a lot more cool stuff. There's one card I regret not buying it. Was it the west coast card show? Last year, a guy had a Origins patch autograph, which. That's one of my kind of niche PCs. I collect the gold out of 10 patch autos from Origins. Either year doesn't matter. They have the best patches. Usually he had a Stewie gold patch auto, and the patch window was the torch from the Liberty logo. But the number he wanted on it was just, like, insane. I'm like, I. I will gladly pay you, like, double of the last comp, but I'm not paying that. And it just. It didn't happen. So I think if I was in New York, I'd be finding a lot more stuff like that. But then at that point, it's like, okay, you pay the local tax on it. Yeah. So I think it makes it fonder, to answer your question, because I think it makes me appreciate it more when I do stumble upon something for sure. It really feels like grif. So much of your collecting philosophy, your North Star, whatever you want to call it, whatever's, you know, making you collect is so much of the chase, and I love that. I find that to be like, it's just a through line to everything you're talking about, even in the team that you're rooting for is like, you gotta follow them. You gotta Chase and I. I think there's something special to that that only us collectors understand. It's. If you try to explain this to somebody that doesn't collect cards, they're not gonna get it. But, like, that Chase, there's something about it, and I think the way you're kind of bringing it through this conversation is. Is making me think about just, like, the Chase, the concept, the. The way that it moves us and the way that. That you kind of respond to that need is so interesting. So, yeah, that's. That's pretty neat. Yeah, I. I would say that's definitely a number one driver for collecting in a lot of things. I also like to do multitudes of things and just learn them. I produce music. I used to do, like, craft plants back in the. Like, I just would. Like, when I find something that I think is cool, I'm just like. I just dive in. I'm like, okay, I'm going 100% in. But I think it can all be tied back to that feeling of, like, okay, I want to learn. I want to chase something and just experience it. I mean, you meet so many people when you just dive headfirst into various things. You're like, I have no idea what I'm doing. Let me just dive in and meet people. And most of the time, people in hobbies like this are just, like, willing to help you make new friends you never would have made otherwise. And in the Chase thing, it's like, for example, the new 2025 Platinum Anniversary Baseball set just came out, and everybody is loving it. I'm like, okay, let me look into this. Oh, they do variations of the players, but you have to know the code on the back, which Topps does a lot of. So, like, the code on the back of the card is different. So I'm like, okay, next card should I go to? I'm finding one in a dollar box, right? And I. And it took me, like, two or three shows, found one, got a really good deal, and it was just like, I was just so happy. Like, I found that chase, right? So just silly stuff like that. But to me, it's like, I learned a new set, I learned a new card. I got good trade value. Somebody else made some money off it, right? So stuff like that's just so fun. And to me, it's. It's the chase, the relationships, learning new things, all the above. It's just. And I think the hobby of card collecting, card selling in general, is. Is a great way where all of those things intersect. 100. And I think they all feed each. It's not even just like an intersection, it's almost like a cycle or a web. Right. What I mean by that is you, you talk about kind of this, this process driven where you, you're like, okay, I'm going to discover something new that maybe I think commands some sort of demand in the market for some reason. Now I'm going to go apply that knowledge in the value bins. I'm going to go make a decision. I'm going to make a series of choices, spend my money and come back. And once you, if you can find one of those and you find yourself saying, wow, I think I got a pretty good deal, I think I can make a buck off this. It puts you in this, in group, the sense of community, the sense of being like, you know, I do know this about the cards and I understand what it's worth and therefore I'm part of this group that gets, gets it. I think there's something about that that's so human and so fun and I find great joy in it. And I don't think necessarily finding that card, discovering that card needs to be something that then you put away for 20 years and call your PC. It can be something you move the next day. I think there is some merit to that and some real fun that can be had. So when you talk about the chase, the knowledge, the relationships, like you said, it's an intersection, but it's also this cycle that where if you keep feeding it and nurturing it, it's going to keep repaying you. So you're speaking my language and I'm just excited to, to hear you talking about it. So that's pretty cool. There's, there's a group of people in the hobby that still love that and do that. Right. It's not, hey, buying at X percentage, selling X percentage cases, which, hey, some people love doing that and there's a thrill in that too. Right? But then there's, there's people that love value binning or learning things about sets from 10 years ago. Nobody else knows. And, and to me, a lot of times it's just fun to learn it. In general, if I don't see one of those cards, I don't see one. But it just, it keeps things fresh, it keeps your mind active. Yeah. And it's great. I, I really want to come out there to one of your local card shows and see how it is because I feel like the Minnesota stuff has to be crazy. Right. And I know this isn't a, this isn't a links podcast or a timberwolves podcast. I, I'm very connected to Minnesota due to my partner, so I want to go to a show out there and go with you and just be like, okay, show me the local scene. Right? Because it's just so different everywhere. And I, I love that. I went to Denver last year and met a couple people from X. It was like, the scene was so different, but it's so live. Meet new people and new vendors, and it's just, it's. That is where I think a lot of my passion comes in in Mojave is that kind of stuff. I hear you on that. I hear you on that. I'm gonna, I'm gonna switch us to another passion that you've talked about throughout this podcast episode, which is about Sabrina. I think that's the elephant in the room or the zebra in the, in the room, maybe. But you've collected Sabrina heavily over the years. What kind of made you gravitate towards her? Was it intentional? You thought maybe she was going to go up in price? You saw the demand. Was it the first timing with Panini's first entrance of Prism? Was it something else? I just, I just want to know why Sabrina. I would say probably a little bit of all of those aspects. To a certain extent, I love watching Sabrina play. She's one of the players I'd watch prior to, like, really diving in. She's exciting player to watch. I, I, when I play basketball, I love shooting three. So anybody that just likes launching threes, me too. I get it. Instant fan. So that drove a lot of it. But then the whole first year of Prism, this is the first time WNBA's had Prism, all that kind of stuff that drove a certain aspect of it because for a time I was just buying any 2020 prism I could, I could find of, you know, Sabrina. So to like anybody, it didn't matter, Stewie, whoever it was, just because I, I thought that that was going to be iconic. I, I, to a certain extent, I think that could still happen one day, but I don't think to the extent. I used to actually think the written house cards are a way better play right now. But, yeah, I think it was. It was all of those, plus the fact that I just liked watching replay and, and then going and seeing the liberty in person that, you know, fateful day four years ago, I was just like, I'm sold. So. And I've always been someone where I'm a player collector. Like, I'm going all in on that player. Another One you, you know is Michaela Blakes. Like, I'm all in on Michaela Blakes. She. She'll probably be someone else wherever she goes. I'm gonna have, like, a secondary fandom of wherever she gets drafted because I think she's a very exciting player. So all of that, it's like, I need a player to collect. Okay, Sabrina, here's all these reasons. Love watching her play. Liberty fan. Boom, boom, boom. Okay, that's what I'm gonna go after. And back in the day, it was a lot of Stewie too. I was buying a lot of Stewie, but I always felt like Sabrina was more fun to chase. I don't know why Stewie's cards seem to show up. And it's like, okay, I have 30 Stewie autos, but Sabrinas don't show up as much. So back to the chase, I guess. Always back to the chase is always the. The common denominator here. One of the questions that I had written down that I kind of want to pick your brain on and see if you get where I'm going with it is this concept around Sabrina kind of changing the tune of WNBA card collecting. I think we have these players in these moments in our hobby that kind of shift the narrative. I think clearly the biggest one is Caitlin Clark. We know that she changed the game. She changed the money in the game for the most. Like, that's the big thing that she changed. I think Sabrina was one of those moments too. And maybe she just came a little bit earlier. But do you think that Sabrina maybe changed the way that WNBA card collecting was perceived or behavior in WNBA card collecting? Or am I talking out of my ass here? I think the best way that I would put it and see if this makes any sense to you. Sabrina, to the card collecting world versus Caitlyn. Sabrina was the MySpace. Caitlin was Facebook. She's the one that took everything over, right? And it really popped off and boomed. But there was that boom with Sabrina, and there was that for. For a little bit, right? And it was also kind of due to Covid. Whole crazy bubble, if you will. It was there. And I remember going to shows back then, and I was like, you would only see Sabrina cards. You wouldn't see any of the other WNBA cards. It'd be GSA 10 base of Sabrina. It's 2020 prism. And it. I don't know what it was back then. Probably like 3 or 400 something stupid back then. But I mean that. I think that's. That's the way I'd Describe it. It's like it was the first bump up and then Caitlin obviously was the floodgates just opening. I mean, how many cards in your collection do you feel like? Just 10x? Yeah. Overnight, when Caitlyn kind of blew, blew through the wnba, right. And got drafted. I mean, Sophie Cunningham's market is the most ridiculous, one of the most ridiculous things I've ever seen in cards, any sport. It doesn't matter which sport it is. That needs to be like a data analysis PhD, like paper on what the hell is going on there in terms of money. Because it's inexplicable to me. Like, I get it. I understand that it's the radius to Caitlin that creates this sort of cult following. And I get it. I get that that's appealing. But just the money, the, the factors that we're talking about here, when we think about comparing to somebody like say Stewie even, we're talking factors of Stewie's crisis. So, yeah, that's another tangent that I could, I could go on and on about. But I think to your point about what Sabrina kind of was, especially kind of the, the comparison or the, the idea of compared to Caitlin is so interesting. I think you could use the fire analogy of Sabrina kind of being the kindling and then Caitlin was just the gas right there on the fire. So, like, I think Sabrina kind of set the stage for what we saw later. And I think that her, she was the player, at least from my personal perspective, she was the player that started occupying physical space in cases at shows. And I think that is very, very important. We talk about availability, accessibility, all these different words we want to hit on. Sabrina was the one that kind of entered that space and was able to penetrate it. And I think that we don't talk about Sabrina's impact enough, but I do think it's something very real. And I think for that reason she has a SP in WNBA card collecting history, at least in my opinion. I, I agree. And I think to me maybe this sounds crazy. I'll ask you. So the other thing to me is the accessibility of WNBA collecting in cards, right. Like I mentioned, the written house sets, 500 cards per, I think per. Per each release in 2017 and 18, I think it was 500 cards. And then you get the one year of the optic set, right. With really low print runs. And the accessibility is so low. Right. If you find one of those in a case in 2021, 2020 back then odds are you just hit a gold mine or it's like some random player that someone has priced exor like through the roof just because. Oh well, because of Sabrina. Right. I know who Sabrina is. So this card is a gold of whoever let me price it 10x of what it should be worth. So yeah, to me it was the accessibility for people to collect more, which is awesome in my opinion. And now it's led to more sets because they've shown there's money in the W space. Right. And again, that does go back to Caitlyn. Sure. But I think it really started with Sabrina that first year Prism and then just kind of opening it from there. And it was honestly quite smart that they went to Prism being a premium set. Right. So a sought after set and that and open the door. So I agree with what you said and the accessibility factor I think is one that isn't really discussed. But go, go try to find a WNBA card in 2018 and get back to me. Right. It's like you're not going to do it. Right. Maybe, maybe Asia or maybe a plum somewhere in Vegas or Texas, whatever. But I, I think that that is another factor that's not discussed when you talk about Sabrina's impact on card collecting. I agree. My, my last point on Sabrina before we kind of keep moving is I think there's certain sets, particularly Prism, that have been co opted by players. And what I mean by that is when I think of 2017 prism, I think of Patrick Mahomes. When I think of 2018 prism, I think a Luka Doncic. And when I think of 2020 prism, I think of Sabrina. And it's just, it's just what I think of. That's what I, when I close my eyes and I think about the base design, that's the card that comes up. And I think that, that, that speaks for itself. So that's kind of my last point on Sabrina. I don't want to talk any more about Sabrina. I. This, this has probably been painful for you, honestly. No, no, it's. It's therapeutic really. My therapist would be very proud of me for enduring this right now. No. Okay, let's pivot though. I've got a couple hard hitting fast questions for you. The first one is around this concept that I claim to have coined. I don't know if I did, but it's called the Disrespect Index. It's this concept that a player is performing really well on the court, but their market is not meeting that same performance. If you had to pick a Liberty player to put on the Disrespect Index, who would you put? Stewie? 100%. I mean, the fact Brianna Stewart's cards sell for so little is mind boggling to me. And. And I mean, kind of goes hand in hand with Asia Wilson. I think Asia Wilson and her accolades, what she does recently too. It's not like Stewie in Seattle. Right. Which I guess is an argument. But Asia, it. I mean, she's the goat and she's doing it right now. Everybody's witnessing it. If you're tuning in, her cards are absolutely disrespectful. 100 out of 10. And so I think to. To a lesser extent, Stewie's right there. I mean, the accolades that she has picked up over her career, she's still playing awesome. I thought she was starting to decline a little bit, but then it kind of came out. Last year she was injured, and that's why. And now this year, she's playing phenomenal again. So she's also another one of those players you. If you watch Brianna Stewart play, how can you not appreciate Brianna Stewart? I mean, yeah, she's a baller like, and with such a good, dedicated, but yet I think underappreciated market, like you said. I think that's a great pick because a lot of the times, a lot of people interpret disrespect index as meaning somebody that's underrated, per se. Like, there's somebody that's under the radar. Maybe they're a six woman, you know, that can't take a take like that. But Stewie is one of the greats. And yet we're still talking on episode 50, something that Stewie's undervalued. It's like, yeah, I completely agree with that pick. I'm gonna hit you with the next one, which is a really hard one. So if you had to pick a Mount Rushmore of Liberty players, do you think you could do it? So I have. When I was thinking about this, I have two ways of viewing it. Okay? I think on one hand, if you want the Mount Rushmore, that goes for the historical part of the liberty, you can easily do that. You just go, you know, like one player from each era, people are happy. Or you just put up Sabrina, Stewie, Jonquill. And another, maybe, maybe you just put up Becky Hammond as the last one. I don't know. You just put them up there because they won the title. I mean, if it. If it's all about winning, then that's who you put up there. And I think Becky Hammond is a great example of exemplifying someone in the wnba that's not just a great player. Yeah, but what a coach. I mean, how many championships does she have now? Is that four? I think with, with aces. Four, Right. Three or four. And she had an incredible career and she coached in the NBA. So it's like I think no matter what Becky Hammons on there for me and then it really just goes, okay, do you want to do like a, like teaspoon on there? Go all decade team. Right. Pick someone from the OG starting five. I think that's totally acceptable. I think I would just put championship team up there. If you can add a fifth person and just put the starting lineup up. Just put the starting lineup. Okay, I, I like that answer. Like, I think, I think I agree with you that maybe the take of needing to spread it out across decades, while a lot of people would appreciate that approach. I'm kind of in the winning camp. Okay. I'm in the winning camp when it comes to greatness. Winning is defined or greatness is defined by winning, in my, in my opinion. So I think I agree with you. As much as it hurts me to say those players names, I, I think I'm on the same, same page as you. Yeah, I think I broke another one of your rules of your questions of four people max. But I think you just put the starting lineup up. I like that. We'll make an exception this time. Okay. Okay. Okay. Let's move to kind of our final segment. I know we're running out of time here, but I just like talking about cards. Griff. But let's talk about kind of hobby market perspective. We talk about your reselling roots or your reselling, I suppose, perspective. We're talking about the Liberty's rise in, in parallel with the rise of WNBA cards in general. So I have a couple hobby market perspective questions for you. The first one is a hard hitting one and you know, I hope this one makes you think which is. Do you think that reselling has made you a better collector? That is not a hard question. I mean, absolutely, 1,000% it has. Okay. I think, I think until you evolve as someone that resells cards, you aren't fully seeing the whole spectrum of things. And maybe that's just me myself. So a little background. I. So I've like I said, collected since 2003. Obviously I was a kid back then, but back then it was me and my buddy set up a lemonade stand and see how much money we can make to go rip a hobby box for 70 bucks and hope we get something cool right Then we sell that cool thing back to the store at 70% to get the card we could have just bought in the first place. So to me, when I really started reselling and setting up and being a vendor and all that kind of stuff, you really start to see so many other people's perspectives on cards from those people that just entered the hobby and know absolutely nothing. And there's so many things that they see cards as or somebody that's, you know, in their 60s, 70s, 80s, that's been collecting a while, and how they see cards, Right? And so you just see all these perspectives from reselling. You see all these tactics that people throw at you to try to get a good deal, which, by the way, I love. I love always seeing new tactics thrown at me. Right. As long as it's not, this player sucks, you should just give me the card for X amount. I'm like, that tactics never worked. Okay, But I think it absolutely does. I think reselling will make you a better collector. But I would say only resell if it's something that you enjoy. Right. If it's something that you're gonna be like, this is a job. I don't like this. Then don't. Yeah, don't resell cards. But for me, I'd say absolutely. 100. And it's made me change my PC over the years, which is awesome. I. I'm going to echo everything you said. Like, I completely agree. This is, like, part of the conversation I wanted to get to, which is. I think it's so. I don't think anybody's saying it's bad to be a reseller, but I think there is this kind of distaste sometimes that comes with being a reseller. But I think the fact of the matter is it's fun. It can be fun. I have a. I have a really good time buying cards, keeping them, renting them for a couple weeks, a couple months, a couple years, renting a card. I like that. Yeah. You know, like, I might even lose money on it. I might even pay my rent on it. But. But I. I enjoyed it while I had it, and it was a fun experience. And not only that, but I kind of get to go into this. I don't know. I had a friend of mine, and I take this as a compliment, say, you know, when Caitlin goes to a show, she gets into a different kind of killer mindset when it comes to negotiations. You get to kind of channel some of that. That business, like, acumen, the. The fun. Like, I love negotiating with people that I really respect. I like watching deals go down there that I'm not ashamed to admit that I like. And I think that when you find people that understand that maybe reselling isn't always just about the money, it's about the process. It's about the hunt, the chase, the knowledge, the learning, all those components together can make a hobby experience so much more fulfilling and well rounded, as opposed to somebody that's just buying. When you're on both sides of the table, whether that table's physical or online, it can expose you to a lot of different perspectives that maybe you didn't see before. So, you know. Yeah. As I would say from, from somebody who both resells and collects, it's always good to have both. I think it's just the, the full experience. So I'm glad that you kind of, kind of hit on that. Yeah. And. And I think especially in the sporting world of the hobby. Right. I think I've never been perceived at least that someone said in front of me, someone could have said something behind my back. Right. At a show. But it's always a good thing. I mean, I had a guy when I, I set up two weeks ago and I had a guy tell me, he's like, I wish you would have waited like one more month before you set up. Because I can tell you set up recently because I'm not buying as much from me. He still bought like a ton of cards from me. But he's like, he told the guy next to me, he's like, if you get to this guy's table first, you're going to find $15 cards for $5, you're gonna find like gems. Right. And he's like, I always try to get those two and stuff like that makes me feel good. And, and whenever I deal with people or negotiate with people, like, I. I sold you a bunch of cards recently. Yeah. I just, I just want to make it easy. I don't want it to be painful. It's just like, what's your value? What's your number? And, and I think that there's a barrier to access if you don't fully open your mind to. Everybody perceives value differently. Yeah. Right. I, I know there's a ton of people that. It's like the card comped for $55, but they paid $10 shipping, so it's a $65 card. And I'm like, if you want to think that, then that's fine. So Your value is $65. My value is 55. Why don't we value it at 60. Right. So as long as you're open minded and know the way you value a card is the never going to be the way somebody else values a card. And then just have fun negotiating with people. Make deals easy, make deals fun, and a lot of the times those people reciprocate it back to you. Right? So I, I just, I think the whole aspect of selling is. And again, like I said earlier, if it's something you enjoy, do it. And if not, then don't go trade. I mean, trading isn't. I used to, back in the day, I used to only trade. I love trading cards. So I don't know, I. I think maybe in the TCG worlds, the reselling is looked at a little differently. And I agree, I'm not as knowledgeable about it. I like opening TCG because it's fun, but I think in the sporting world it's just so different. There's so many valleys and peaks and avenues and all the sports and all the players and all the sets. It's just, it's just such a blast. I love that. I guess one of my. We'll kind of keep going. I think I have like three questions left for you, Griffin, if you don't mind. If you had to give one piece of advice to somebody that maybe is embarking on. You know, I've been collecting for a while, but I might start reselling a couple things because I'm thinking about the concept of consolidation. It's not something I had considered before. And I think, you know, I'm going to take control of my collection, liquidate it into some. Take some equity out of my collection and, and resell it and get something else. If you could give somebody that's starting on that journey a piece of advice, what would you tell them? Them, I think I would ask them first, what is your ultimate goal with it? Is it to liquidate once and then use that money for something cool? Are you completely just done with cards and want to liquidate or is it like I'm dipping my toe in the water and want to see how reselling goes? Right. Because I think the most valuable thing in general in life is time. But in the card world, time is very valuable. I. One of my biggest pet peeves, it shows if you do not price your cards and you can't just look at them and go, I'll take them for 60 bucks. I'm not waiting 45 minutes at your table because there's 50 other tables I need to get to before somebody else finds that Stewie. Auto for 10 bucks. So I would say I would ask them that question because if you don't want to spend the time and learn to resell, there's so many great options now. You can either consign through people, you can send them, you know, to someone that'll liquidate them for you and take an easy percent. But if you really want to dive in, I think my biggest advice would be don't be afraid to make mistakes and know you're not just going to sell cards and make money every time. Be willing to take losses. That was something I learned like the first six to eight months and I think it helped me grow the most, if you will. For sure, for sure. I think that's a good piece of advice that, you know, we're still learning. I think I'm still learning that sometimes I'm like, I don't want to sell this because I'm going to lose money. And then I'm like, oh, but I can move it. And, you know, there's all these factors. I think that's a great place to start. Okay, I said I have three questions. That was the first. The second question is, what's next for you, Griff? What's next for your collection or for your reselling business? I think collecting west coast card shows coming up. I always find something for a PC when I'm at the West Coast Guard show, so I'm very excited about that. I just picked up a 2003 Carmelo Anthony Limited logos from Exquisite. Yeah, so that's kind of like why I'm not like, I'm not sure what's next because that took some prying out of my PC to get. I would like to hopefully add some more Michaela Blakes before the season starts because she's another one. I think her market's too low. Also someone where I'm like, cool. I have a bunch of her cards that have gone up in value, but I'm also absolutely not selling them right now because I know she's going to be so good. Right. I think from a resell perspective, I run stack sales or at least try to run a stack sale every other week on X. And I think the next thing is I'm focusing on finding more lanes for buying. I have certain area. I go to a lot of shows physically, I use discord, but I'm always trying to expand, finding other people to build relationships and buy from. But then also I would like to get to more shows in the next six to eight months and kind of grow that Because I think X is wonderful and that kind of organically grows just as you keep selling, if you will. So I'd like to just expand, meeting more people, more relationships, that kind of thing right now for sure. That's. I wish you good luck. I hope it goes well. Thank you. We'll go to our final question, which is a question I asked every guest on this season, which is if someone's listening today and they're saying to themselves, damn, I like this WNBA league a lot. I like collecting these cards a lot. But I haven't settled on a team to root for. Could you make your 5 second, 30 second elevator, elevator pitch for why the New York Liberty should be in their consideration? YouTube Marine Johannes Harlites, period. I love that answer. That is like the per. Because I agree, like, she makes me watch Liberty games and I think that's a powerful movement right there. Absolutely. Well, see, you get them to see that and then they go watch the team and then they're like, oh, wow, this is a good team. No, I should be rooting for the Liberty. Okay, we'll leave it there. Let's not let them go too far now. No. Griff, this has been an awesome conversation. We've been talking for a while now. I don't want to take any more of your time, but I really enjoyed kind of having this well rounded conversation about many aspects of the hobby of what we do. Buying, selling, trading, collecting, all the things. If people are looking to connect with you, maybe they want to buy something from you, maybe they want to sell something from you, maybe they want to talk to you about Rekia Jackson, maybe they just want to talk to you about Liberty cards. Where can they find you? What, what platforms and where your handles. So Rocky's Cardboard, Ro Ckys, Cardboard X and Instagram. That's mainly where I'm active for cards. I, I am in a couple of discords, but I would say just shoot me a DM if, if Elon's ex isn't connecting with me, please just mention me in a tweet. Because that's the, that's the other thing that, not to go off on a tangent at the end here, but the dms, you don't even get notified anymore. Yeah. And so I've had people trying to connect with me and I, and I feel bad. So if you really do want to connect, please do. I have boxes upon boxes of WNBA cards. Especially if you're just like a team collector. I'm always happy, like, hey, I've got a $50 budget can you just put something together for me? Always happy to do that. I have full sets of the veteran 2020 PRISM base that I always will give to people real cheap and I think if you have stuff to sell, I'm always looking. I'm a little bit pickier with W stuff right now, but just reach out to me. And if you want a bike, cool cards. Check out my X. You can just scroll my feed and see if it's something you're interested in. But thank you Caitlin. This has been so much fun. I rarely get to talk about WNBA cards or the league except with a few select people that I know locally. So this has been fun and and just talking about cards in General is always fun. 100 Griff, it was a pleasure having you on. And guys, if you don't follow Griff at Rocky's Cardboard, shoot him. A follow can vouch for them 100%. We've done thousands of deals or thousands of dollars of deals now together, so it's been a pleasure and don't be a stranger. We'll talk soon everybody. We'll see you on the next episode with some more fun WNBA Card content. Thanks everyone. Awesome conversation. I am glad Caitlin was able to manage through that, even though the subject was the Liberty. Thank you so much Griff at Rocky's Cardboard for showing up and showing out. And thank you, the loyal listener of the WNBA Card podcast. We appreciate you. Make sure you're following us at WNBA Card Pod on the Instagram machine. We are here. We are back next week. Take care. Talk to you soon. What.