Topps Industry Conference Review (Part 2: Product Launches; New Card Redemption Process); Over/Under With Ohtani Cards That Are Now 10x

You're listening to Cards to the Moon, a podcast about trading cards from both a collector and investor perspective. We hope you'll stick around for the ride as we take a deep dive into the state of the hobby, share some hot takes, hopefully some useful advice and fun stories along the way. Hey guys, welcome back to Cards to the Moon. This is episode 362, my name is Clark from 5cardguys.com. You can also find me at 5cardguys on Instagram, YouTube, Facebook and on TikTok. Co-hosting with me today is John, who is at TradeUatRecess on Instagram. Kyung's away for April, but not to worry, we've been lucky to have all the other co-hosts step up this month. So John, off the top today, I want to actually get your thoughts on something that Will, Roy and I, we talked about in last week's podcast episode, and that's the American Express credit card in partnership with Fanatix. We talked about some of the perks, including a 5% Fanatix cashback on eligible purchases, early access to Topps products in the future, that was the one I was most excited about, and Fanatix Fest perks, that festival is coming up pretty soon. Will says he's all for it, because I think he buys a lot of cards anyways, so this is an added bonus for him. Roy says he doesn't, so he's not really interested. So John, you're going to be the tiebreaker. What do you think about this brand new credit card? The more I thought about it as we were doing our notes, I think I'm fine with it, I think it's good. At first, there's some, and I guess we can talk about this later as well, but I'm not a fan of this whole sort of, how the culture of our collecting space right now, the industry is kind of going towards breaking and this sort of gambling aspect. If we go on this gambling trajectory, what's the market for gambling? There's gazillions of dollars. So as we go to that, could we 10X the sports card market if it gets more into the gambling aspect? 100%. So I think that's, in terms of money to be made, it's clear that the direction that they're taking and something like a credit card, I think the skeptic or the, if I want to be a critic, it just feeds into that machine so much more. So in that way, I'm not a fan of it. But if we're looking at it just from a benefits perspective, I think it's good. Overall, I think it makes sense. For myself, for example, if I got the card, not that I would use it that often, but even like you were saying, for the fact that you'll get early access, there's some perks to it where you don't necessarily have to be spending money. I think that's good. And if you're a hardcore collector and you're spending $200, $300, $400, maybe a thousand bucks a month, why not? Why not get some money back that's going to help you purchase a little bit more? I don't know. Yeah. I think it's okay. Yeah. I was a little bit on Roy's side at first, but the more I thought about it, I'm like, you know what? I think it's good. If you're looking for collectors, why not? Why not have a card that can help you and help your cause? See, this is why I wanted John to have his input on this particular issue because everyone knows all our loyal listeners on the pod, John is our moral conscience of the podcast. He's always saying, hey, hold up, guys. This breaking thing can lead to disastrous personal things and the whole gambling aspect. So without you at the podcast last week, we're kind of off the rails. We're like, yeah, why not? Let's just spend it like crazy and just encourage this gambling behavior. But Will did kind of very briefly address it. His counterpoint is that if that's an issue, which is a serious issue, I'm not making light of that, but this credit card, there's other credit cards where you will have that same issue. If it's an American Express in partnership with Fanatics Fest, you're going to have this kind of spending problem, whether it's this credit card or some other credit card. But certainly, this doesn't make it any easier, but I get it both ways. So yeah, I think that's a good point and if you're responsible and kind of like what you're saying at the end, if you're spending a certain amount on the hobby, this is just an added perk. Why not? And oh, I forgot to mention, if you spend a thousand bucks a month for a year, you get a free jersey. And then the joke is, oh, essentially you're paying $12,000 for a free jersey, but it's added perk. Okay? Don't do it just for the free jersey, guys. Okay? So that's all I'm saying. But yeah, I appreciate your input on that. All right, let's move on to hobby headlines. So again, last week we talked about some of the announcements from the Topps Industry Conference, more high level, more of the headlines that came out of the conference, like the credit card we just talked about. But there was a lot more that was talked about, including a lot of upcoming products. So I thought for today's episode, we'll do a part two of the Topps Industry Conference episode, recap episode, and yeah, we'll just cover the rest of what I think are really interesting announcements and let's get our thoughts on them. So first, John, you were actually mentioning how there were a lot of nice inserts or sets that Topps will be releasing soon. And the first one I saw was the 2026 Bowman baseball set will have gold ink autographs numbered to 15. Your thoughts on gold ink autographs? I mean, who doesn't like gold ink or silver ink? Yeah, it's great. I think whatever you're about to present, I'm going to be all for it. I've mentioned it before. As long as it's not parallels like donut circle refractors and just the previous years of laziness of trying to increase the chase. The good thing about Fanatics in conjunction with Topps, they're really making an effort obviously to grow the hobby and create a lot of excitement. They've got a lot of money to back it up as well and a lot of resources to back it up. So this is where their powers really come in, gold ink autos, getting the players, whatever. Once we start moving to relic jerseys that have specific games where they were, Topps now clearly already kind of started with that. But I think this is the direction that's going and I'm 100% for it. As long as it's not lazy parallels, as long as it's fresh and new and creates that excitement and the chase is like a legitimate collector chase. We legitimately want this. We don't want red donut circles and Nova Wave parallel out of 10. No, we don't want that manufactured stuff. I think this is the step in the right direction. So any of these upcoming, I was pretty excited. I didn't get to see the entire list, but from what I saw in some of the Instagram posts, I was all for it. It looked amazing. Nice. I'm curious if you would consider this next one kind of a lazy play or a smart play, right? So I'll explain what I mean by that. 2025 Topps Chrome football was just released. They got the license. So that was a big deal. Everyone's excited about it. I actually tried to get in the EQL line to get a hobby box for $350, which is crazy. It's kind of expensive. It didn't matter because I didn't get access to it. It's just sold out right away. So that's another issue. That's another issue. But the Topps Chrome football kind of following the playbook of baseball. So this is why I'm curious whether you think it's a lazy play or just smart because it works for baseball. The Sapphire Chrome is going to be coming out. That's going to be coming out. They're also having MVP buybacks in baseball. If you win an MVP and you have their base or parallel or Chrome, you could get store credit at a local card shop that's participating in MVP buybacks. So this year Topps Chrome football, the MVP buyback is for Matthew Stafford. And then also from the baseball playbook is their premier patches, which is equivalent of the MLB debut patch. Any of those three things you like or you think it's like, ah, rinse and repeat, but it's a smart thing to do. What's your take on that set? The Sapphire is going to be a separate product, right? It's not like an insert. I think so. Yes. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. I mean, I'm all for it. These are, um, these are things that have been working in the past and the reason why they work is because collectors and people like it, right. And if things like MVP buybacks, of course we'd want that. Of course we'd want our base cards that are essentially not worth anything to be worth 20 bucks or whatever in store credit. Like the more that collectors and people who are opening packs, like the more we have the opportunity to get, you know, for hardcore collector, I don't want to call it just return on investment, but that's the way you look at it. Right. Like as you open a box, you want to know how much did I, did I get out of this box? Right. Not just like the pure collector collection standpoint. So it gives back to the collector, which is great. Um, and in terms of like the Sapphire product, I mean, that, that is at this point, it's an iconic, it's an iconic set. I think it should come with any of the sports. It's a given. And then things like premier patches and stuff as, as they add more to the chase, 100% for it. Because right now I think everyone can kind of agree the ROI, the return on investment because they're printing so much. It's just, it's pretty brutal and the cost of the boxes and, and we, you know, you, you kind of mentioned how you missed out on top scrum football and I don't want to open up a can of worms, but you know, this is, this is my biggest gripe on the breaking culture is that the breaking culture is kind of determining the economics of hobby boxes and cards, right? The collectors are sort of left only with mega boxes from Walmart or Target like that. You can't really, the hobby boxes get, just get swallowed up by breakers. So yeah, that, that's, that's the tough part right now, but yeah, overall I think that as they add more, yeah, it'd be great for, for us collectors. Yeah. I mean, it's a difficult problem to solve. We actually touched upon it a bit in our just a thought segment last week and Will was mentioning, you know, why don't collectors or non breakers, non stores get first access, let the collectors get what they want and then it goes to breakers, but you know, there's other things you need to address with that as well. So it's a complex problem, but yeah, something we need to think about. I want to go back to the premier patches for a second. I don't know if you'd like it or not. Premier, if you saw it is the I in premier is actually a number one. Do you like it or? I don't mind. I don't mind. You know, the premier with the one inserted, it's, it makes sense. I don't care. I could care less. I just care that it's game used. Hmm. Yes. It's gotta be game used. That's the more important part. Don't, don't, yeah. Don't come with this new premier patches and try to sell us on it and it's one of these, you know, uh, was it like not from any specific game or event or event worn or player worn? I don't want none of that. Like at this point going forward, if you're going to market, um, some of these like, you know, supposedly great inserts, it's, it's, it's gotta be great. It's gotta be game use 100%. Otherwise I don't, it means absolutely nothing. You know, I want to make a clarification because just looking at the announcement, um, from the TOPS industry conference and I was, I was wondering cause premier patches have been out since 2023 so it's not new, but I guess what, what is new is 2025 TOPS Chrome football. They're introducing NFL premier patch autos. So I don't know if the autograph part is new. Maybe we can get clarification on that, but I believe it will be a one of one, these premier patch autos. So that's going to be a big chase. Speaking of debut patches there, I think the UFC 2026 TOPS Chrome UFC will have debut patches and I believe that's what they're calling it. So I guess there's no standard for the naming of these patches, but any thoughts on UFC? You think it's a fad or you think it's still popular? You know, I feel, I feel like it's kind of similar to F1 me personally, where it had its peak and it didn't completely die off, but you know, it's certainly regressed. What are your thoughts? I think UFC overall, you know, um, there's a period of, I don't know, 10 years ago or so where every, I think every male on the planet was into UFC. Similar to back in the rock and stone cold, like every male was into WWE at one point and they kind of go through waves. F1 obviously had its, I mean, F1 is still doing pretty good, but UFC has, uh, you know, it's simmered down and I think clearly if they're still making boxes, like a standalone product, it's definitely from a money standpoint, it's still strong enough. And obviously they're doing sales. So yeah, I'm okay with it. I don't think you and I would probably chase or collect anything, but from every TOPS Chrome that comes out, whatever sport it is. the fact that they're doing the debut patches, I think that is awesome. Right, at this point, I think the debut patches from the popularity of baseball, it's gonna be probably one of the biggest grail hunts you could find. And you can get the grail from a standard Tops Chrome box. I think I'm such a fan of that. It's not, you know, the NBA logos are awesome. I could only dream of owning one, but you can't even, the standard collector can't even chase it because it comes from a $10,000 flawless box, right? Like the debut patch is, you know, the odds of getting it is 0.001%, but, you know, like Jim Carrey said in Dumb and Dumber, you're telling me there's a chance, like you can hit it. So I'm a big fan of the debut patch. Yeah, me too, as long as they keep the Tops Chrome, which is, you know, kind of what you're alluding to, the Tops Chrome set in general, the name, the brand is iconic, as long as they keep that at a certain price level, right? And, you know, to do that, they might have to print a lot more Tops Chrome products or boxes, but, you know, there is a chance to hit one of these grail cards, like you were saying. All right, one more kind of set that was introduced at this industry conference, and I should have asked Will about it, I totally forgot. Tops Royalty WWE boxes, I guess there's six autographs per box, and there are also ring-worn relics, whatever that means. So ring-worn relics on these WWE wrestlers. It was funny, when we talked about it last week, year over year, the last 365 days, all the card ladder index for every category, sports and non-sports, is in the green, which we kind of, you know, might have guessed, because the hobby's been on fire lately, except for one category, which happens to be wrestling. So we're like, Will, are you worried? And he seems to be fine, and he's like, maybe I'm delusional, but he's going all in on something that's going the other way, trending downwards. But he thinks it's because there hasn't been a lot of product launches recently, in the last several months. So with such few launches, you might see that trend, like no one's buying, because it's all kind of old. Now you got this Tops Royalty WWE set, so maybe next year we'll see the trend go the opposite way, with newer, you know, sets and boxes of WWE products coming up. So I just wanted to kind of throw that out there. I don't know if you have any thoughts on WWE cards. Yeah, I mean, I think WWE is in its niche place, similar to UFC, I'm perfectly fine with it. I think it's pretty awesome that they finally came back out with like Stone Cold Autos, and most especially The Rock. I don't know how much those go for, but I think Will mentioned at least like two grand for like a base, which makes sense. Like, I'm pretty sure the wider collecting audience, like you and I would be interested in The Rock. This is not specific to WWE loyal fans. Yeah. In terms of the product itself, Royalty, I don't know what that is, you know, but it seems high end. If you're getting six autos per box, I'd imagine this is a pretty expensive box, so probably more on the high end for WWE products. That sounds pretty awesome to me, like a hobby box coming with six autos. Hopefully it's not that expensive. And yeah, ring worn relics, again, game used, same thing. I'm for it. As long as it's not player worn, event used, not from any specific events or game or whatever, like I'm all for it. Ring worn, game used, all of that stuff, yes, 100%. Yeah, for sure, and I think Fanatics is going that way anyways, right? Making sure that it's not like just player worn or anything like that. So yes, we're all for that. Kudos to Fanatics for going in that direction. All right, last couple of things, and I think this is more of an interesting discussion. Fanatics Collect Redemptions Reimagined. That's what they're calling this slide, and what they're saying is that Redemptions are moving from Tops to Fanatics Collect, and now once a Redemption is pulled, you got a Redemption card, Collectors can transact the card at any point in the fulfillment process, not just after the card ships. So there's that kind of like, I guess you could decide exactly what you wanna do with your Redemption before receiving it, and then flipping it or vaulting it or doing whatever with it. You could decide beforehand, I guess. That's what it's saying. And, or you could grade it. I guess you could, instead of coming right to you as a raw card or a encased card, you can get it graded and then when it comes to you, that's another option. And then speaking of grading for Redemptions, there is, for some cards, a possible grade guarantee on the biggest hits in select products. So I guess if it's not in good condition, then I don't know if they'll reproduce it and get the guy to sign it again, like the athlete to sign it again, but for some of these really high hit, probably like MLB debut patches or one of these debut patches, there is a great guarantee if you decide to grade it from this point, the beginning of the Redemption process. So your thoughts on this new kind of Redemption process overall? I think it's okay. I mean, the... I think the more you allow, it doesn't seem like crazy news, to be honest, but the more there is to allow flexibility in whatever in this space, right? So they're moving to, once the Redemption is pulled, collector can transact at any point in the fulfillment process. How often is that gonna happen? Maybe not often, but at least the option is there in case you kind of get stuck in transit or whatever, you redeem it and the player is just popping off and you're kind of stuck in limbo, you don't know when the card's gonna come to you. So it gives people some more flexibility. I think that's definitely good. The great guarantee, yeah, I don't know if you recall, but way back in the day, this is probably the early years of our podcast, I was always of the opinion, hey, I personally thought all one of ones, and this is a bit of a hot take, I can understand, but I thought all one of ones should be Redemptions. Like I don't really want my one of one to be in a pack, but I get it, like pulling the one of one in the pack is probably, I think it's because I've never experienced it that I'm saying this, all the other collectors that have pulled it, they're gonna be like, what are you talking about, John? Pulling it out of pack is probably the greatest feeling in the world, I 100% agree. But from the fickle collector standpoint, if you pull the one of one, it's like damage, it's like a PSA three, that would kind of suck too. Like you'd want your one of one. So I would think if you're gonna do Redemptions, the one of one should be a Redemption and it should already come graded. I think I mentioned this like three years ago. And I think this sort of great guarantee is kind of on that path. Obviously it's only with Redemption, so it's specific to a player that didn't sign in time and they probably have the card sitting in their warehouse and they're like, you know what, the guy signed it here, it never went out for mailing into the product, so we can guarantee it's gonna be a certain condition. Yeah, why not? Why not? It's not, again, not the biggest news, but another little why not, sure, we'll take it. I mean, John, you're ahead of your time. Yeah, I do vaguely recall you mentioning something like that. So they finally listened to you, John. And come on, tops, give John his proper credit for the great guarantee. And I've never pulled a one of one either, so I don't know that feeling, but we should ask Will. He's pulled multiple one of ones. So let's see if he agrees with your stance that they should all be Redemption cards or if the feeling of pulling a one of one out of a pack is something we all need to experience at least once in our life. I don't know. But all right, last one. And knowing how you feel about breaks, I don't know which way you're gonna go, but there's a break to vault, I guess, option that they're offering for fanatics. I'm assuming fanatics collect breaks. You know, they're into breaking as well. So any cards you hit in those breaks can now be routed directly to the fanatics vault or shipped home or sent straight to grading. So another kind of similar to what we just talked about, but from a breaking standpoint, if you hit a card, they're essentially cutting out the middleman. You could decide what to do right from them. Do you think that's a good idea? Or do you think fanatics is just kind of like a control play? Do you know what I mean? Like trying to control every step of the process this way. What are your thoughts? Again, it's another option. It's another convenience, added convenience for the collector. I'm 100% for it. Yeah, I think that's great. And to be clear, there's aspects of breaking that really grind my gears. And we already kind of talked about it. It's like the whole ecosystem of how the money works and it's kind of stealing from the collectors and then the whole gambling aspect. But I get it. The reason why breaking is so successful and why so many, and even local cards, like hobby card shops are making so much money from breaking is because it's popular and people like it. And we've tried it ourselves and it's actually kind of fun, right? Like it's another way of ripping into cards. So I get it. And if you're gonna be doing it anyways, to have more and more options in terms of like for your convenience, yeah, let's do it. The more they continue to add to this stuff. And they're doing their best to kind of break barrier to entry, right? I'm sure there's tons of collectors that have never, they're sitting on the sidelines that are shaking their fists at breaking, that never tried it. And they're really trying to entice them, like eliminating as many barriers as possible to get people into it. Yeah. You can criticize. And I think I'm kind of with this point. You can criticize. You're gonna send people down the wrong path in terms of like the whole gambling aspect. But yeah, it is what it is at this point. This is the nature of the hobby. Like this is a unstoppable moving force. So you got to... Yes. You just got to accept it. I mean, you know, we're not gonna ban casinos anytime soon and gambling is supposed to be a form of entertainment. So everything in moderation. Another point I would like to add to that is, you know, for some people that are not really deep into the hobby, breaking could be, like we said, kind of a form of entertainment. But if they hit something big, maybe they're not a collector. Maybe they don't need to hold the card in their hand. They would rather vault it and then see it more as an investment or an alternative asset class, you know, like the Kevin O'Leary types. They're like, you know, this is even better because I don't have to deal with it. You know, if someone shipped it to O'Leary, I bet he wouldn't know what to do with it exactly. He's like, okay, I get to hold the card. I'm gonna just give it to someone who knows what to do with it. This is kind of easier. You just click a button or you just tell the breaker, can you just send it to a secure vault and, you know, let me know how I can access it whenever I want to or whenever I can see the card, you know, just give me the simple directions and that's all I need to know. You know, or grade it first and then go to a vault. So I think, again, no brainer for this to finally happen. And I could see other breakers. If Fanatics Collect's the only one offering this right now, I could see other breakers partnering with either Fanatics Collect or eBay or other vault services to provide this service essentially. Like, hey, break with us. If you hit it, we'll ship it out to grading or we could put it into a vault for you, your personal vault with eBay, with Fanatics Collect, wherever you want to. And I think that's just lowering barriers again. So I'm all for it. I love it. And yeah, this is what we need, right? Kind of these steps forward to making things just generally easier for people in the hobby. All right. Amazing. Let's go on to, I think we covered a lot of it already for the Tops Industry Conference. Hopefully we could personally go out to one of these. It'd be kind of cool to see live in person. I think they have in Arizona every year in some kind of stadium. So it's a big deal. But anyone listening from Tops, we would appreciate an invite for the Cards to the Moon podcast people, all right? And then we'll be out there next year, hopefully. Okay. Next segment's called Over Under. All right, so the Over Under theme for this episode, again, Shohei Ohtani. His cards are going wild. And I thought, I actually read this article from Yahoo, which I'm gonna take most of the information from for this Over Under. And the title of the Yahoo article was Five Shohei Ohtani Baseball Cards That 10X'd in Just Three Years. Okay? So I'm gonna give you five cards if you have time, four for sure. Ohtani cards that they list. I'll give you what it sold for three years ago. And then I'll give you a number. You tell me if it's over or under what it sold for recently. Okay? So the first one, the 2013 BBM Genesis No. 55 PSA 10 card. So it's one of the Japanese cards before you came to the big leagues. Japanese, right. Yeah, the BBM set, 2013. BBM set, 2013. Three years ago, it sold for $486, all right, the PSA10, so under $500. Recent sale, over or under $5,000? Man, 10X Otani from three years ago is nothing. I think I saw some that are like 30X. I swear whatever you're going to present to me, it should be over on all of them. $5,000 for, I mean, I remember looking at that card for $400, $500. Yeah, I mean, that sounds crazy, by the way, because BBM is like a base paper card, right? Okay, so I think it's over, but I think you're going to try to trick me off the hop. And you're wanting me to say over, so I'm going to go under. You see, you do this to yourself all the time. It's over, $5,500, and you know while you're- I thought too deeply, I thought too deeply. While you're talking about that, I feel like the title kind of gives it away. They all 10X to a certain degree, so it's going to be around the number I give you. I don't know how fun this is, because you can't be wildly off. But you know what? I wasn't as prepared today, so let's just continue to go with it. The 2018, so his rookie year, MLB rookie year, Topps Chrome pitching blue refractor rookie card, okay? So it's him in his pitching stance, Topps Chrome blue, number 250, PSA 10. So three years ago, if anything, this will be just an eye-opener for where the Otani market is right now. Totally, yeah. Yeah, sale three years ago, just over $1,500, $1,500. So 10X would be $15,000. Do you think it's over or under the $15,000 10X mark? Exactly, yeah. So it's around there, but yeah. Yeah, it's around there. I mean, there are some cards that are not as crazy popular. I remember looking at the pitching refractors, and they were generally not as volatile and super popular. So I'm going to, I mean, you're just, like you said, I think you're putting the number right around that number. So I mean, it's believable. It's there, I'll say it's under. It sold for $20,100 in March, so it's over. All right. That's crazy. Yeah, that's crazy. I don't know if you're going to have this card on the list, but I remember looking at the 2018 paper SSP, Ohtani. I don't know if you remember, I was always listing. I'm like, I think I want to go for this card. It's about $1,500. I feel like that's as low as it's going to get. Yeah. I think I saw somebody list one recently. It was like $20,000. I was like, oh my God. Yeah, that's sickening. Anything, yeah, anything Ohtani, if you're not in on it right now, and you had Ohtani's back in the day, it's painful. I'm going to do a video on this on my YouTube and Instagram channel. But remember that the Topps Chrome base rookie auto that I had for 500 bucks? Yeah. Yeah, I bought it on eBay for 500. I just checked. I shouldn't have checked, but I just checked the price that sold for recently. $30,000. No way. I'm looking to buy a card. That could have covered a big chunk of that car that I need. Oh, man. This is like. Holy cow. It's the Ohtani Marcus. Yeah, the Sapphire I had, I think last year just sold for like $13,000 or something. And I bought it for $350. I mean, I sold it for $4,500. It wasn't bad, but man, $13,000. We all have, if you owned an Ohtani two, three years ago, we all have the same story right now because we probably sold it way too early. All right. Actually, I'll do a couple more. All right. This is more for Will because it's non-licensed. The 2022 Panini Absolute Kaboom card, PSA 10. Three years ago, it sold for $16,037. All right. So 10X would be $16,000. Did it go over or under that number? $16,000. What do you think? For the Panini Kaboom. I think that's a big one. I think that one's over. Oh, okay. Wow. I thought you were going to go under for sure. You're right. $22,800, recent sale for a non-licensed. I should just be picking over every time. All right. Last one. Oh, this is a fun one because I don't know if you've seen, I've seen a lot of IG posts on this recently. The Ohtani 2023 Tops All Aces PSA 10 card. So that looks like the ace in the deck of cards, but Ohtani is pitching on it. And it's been making the news because the 2023 All Aces, the print run was a bit higher. You know, it was not as difficult to find those inserts in those tops products back then. But since then, the 2024 and 2025 All Aces sets, they drastically reduced the print run to like under a thousand. So now for some reason, the 2023 one, which is over a thousand, at least a thousand print run, probably 2000. They're still selling for a bunch because there's this optic that, oh, even the 2023 one print runs are lower. Anyway, the whole thing is like, why are people paying this much for the 2023 one? But three years ago, you could have bought it for 90 bucks. Great. When it first came out, you're like, oh, everyone's getting these All Aces inserts. Recent sale. So 10X would be 900 over under that. That's wild. 900 for like a base insert. I'm going to say, I think it sounds like it's a card that's over a thousand dollars, like similar to the tops. What's like the fake patch auto? The fake patch auto. What's that called again? You know, the, the, the, oh my gosh. Oh, that's the commemorative. It's like commemorative. Yeah. Yeah. That's selling for like four grand or something. I think it's, I think it's kind of in that category. So I'm going to say it's, it sounds like it's probably going to be a thousand, $1,500 card. So you're going over it. The correct answer is over with, yeah, just $1,212 recently. So, I mean, you're right. You should just say over for everything. At this point, it's over. Whatever number you think it is, it's over that. Okay. So yeah, yeah. I misunderstood your, the original question. I didn't realize you were going to just like literally math 10X the last sale. I thought it was, this was like the top 10 list, but I realized after the fact that the top 10 lists that you were talking about was just in reference to the theme. Yes. Now you got it. All right. That was a fun over under Otani prices. We'll, we'll keep an eye out. It's got to regress at some point or does it? I don't know anymore. Nothing surprises me with the Otani card market. All right. Let's finish off this episode with our regular weekly segment. We call pick one. All right, John, you want to start things off for us? Yeah, let's do it. So mine is going to look like we all know the popularity of cases, right? We've seen the kabooms. We've seen yada, yada, yada. And, you know, fanatics is getting a lot more creative in their cases. They're making, they're realizing. I think they're also making them a lot more limited, right? Like I think the last iteration of, you know, a couple of years ago, the kabooms were just, it was getting too crazy. They're supposed to be SSP. You could get them like one out of five blaster boxes. Like it was getting a little bit too wild. And I think they're realizing, okay, let's make some really cool inserts. Let's make them super rare. So people are liking it. Like the new mangas, you know, you got the Mahomes manga wearing kind of like the Jon Snow jackets. You've got the Joker and the Steph Curry's, you know, the all aces, the all Kings making those super rare. It's got like all of these answers have really excellent eye appeal. So my, all that being said, my one V one is going to be from investment collector investment standpoint. Would you rather the inserts long-term for whatever iconic player or their equivalent money valued rookie card? So if you're going for like the Joker manga, for example, I don't know how much that costs right now. 20,000. What's the equivalent Joker rookie card? Like a, you know, blue light blue prism out of one 50. I don't know what it is, but line up the values equal, which would you rather have long-term? And I feel like I've, I may have posed this question to you before and I feel like you're on the rookie card side. So I built this to try to convince you to get away from the rookie card. Yes. Because I I'm going to, I'm going to get, give my answer right away. I'm for the insert. Oh, wow. And I think, I think, I think the new age of collector and a lot of the younger kids. And I mean, you and I are getting convinced of this as well. Like when I look at the Mahomes manga, when I look at the Joker manga, I prefer that over the rookie card. I think the eye appeal looks sick. I think it's, it's rare enough. Yeah. I'd want that for my personal collection. So when you look back, you know, in rookie card space, I think a great example is the Jordan Fleer. Like everyone's like, Oh, the Jordan, that's like the go-to. You got to get the rookie card, but you know what? What's more expensive? The PMG, the PMG blows it out of the water. It like long-term it, it, it crushed the Fleer 86. Yeah. So long-term, what are we looking at here? And I think the game to be played here also is making sure out of all of these cases, you choose the right one. At some point, one of these is going to be the next PMG. We don't know yet. Which one is it? Is it the All Kings? Is it the manga? We don't know. So that's another game to play within this. But the question is, would you rather one of these cases to the equivalent rookie card? Rookie card or case it? Excellent. One V one. I love this. And your, your Michael Jordan comparison was really good, but then you kind of answered all of my counterpoints already. Like you got to make sure the case, you get the right case set, you know, obviously the home field advantage is the winner out of all these, right? You know, that's because I'm a collector, but no, like, I mean, there are, yeah, for every, you know, case hit that has tremendous value there, I would argue five, six, seven, that just won't hold value over the longterm. So for me, and then, you know, with the MJ too, right? If you got a PSA, 10 FLIR, that's going to just have good value, really good value for a long time. So great condition, rookie card. I think for me, that's the fundamental of baseball card or sports card collecting. Rookie high-grade rookie cards. And I think it's a safe bet. Whereas case hits are short. Like I still, honestly, I still see it as short-term flips for me. I can agree with you that some of these cards look sick, especially the mangas, but I don't know, like if it's a fad or if it's really hyped up now. And that's why the value is there. And I don't know which one will be that next PMG. There's just too many variables to know which one will be the winner. Whereas the rookie card, you know, you have your top two or three, tops chrome, bowman chrome for baseball, you know, the ones to get. And if the player himself or herself turns out, then that's who you're banking on, the player itself, not the, you know, the card set or anything like that. So I think I'm going to still, I probably said this the last time you presented this, I'm sticking with the rookie card because I think that's the fundamentals. And, and if I get a case hit, I'm overjoyed, but I'm listing it on eBay. Right. You know, I'll also add one last point and maybe I can turn, I don't think I can turn you, but at least for the listeners with the case hits, you know, especially the really popular ones, right? You're going to get the mangas. You're going to get the all kings. You're going to get the kabooms. There is also an element of when we talk about safety and you talk about set collecting, the clientele that's going after it, sometimes it's not, and the thing I like about the case hits, it's not necessarily about the player. Sometimes the high end collectors looking to complete the set, similar to how a lot of these vintage sets have like Joe Schmo PSA tens going for like tens of thousands of dollars because there's people hardcore collecting the entire set. There's a different reason to go for that card. And, and another side example of the reason why I bring it up is my Rory PMG McElroy, right? When you look at the spectrum of what his best card is or his rookie card, like the reason why the Pete Rory PMG, which is a upper deck employee, exclusive numbered out of, I think it's one 25, why it does so well. It actually value. I said much outperforms as rookie patch autos. It's because it appeals, not just to golf collectors. Like it's appealing to everyone that's collecting that upper deck year PMG, like exclusive set, which includes Hulk Hogan, includes Mike Tyson, et cetera, et cetera. Right. It's not just about Rory. So I think there's that also added aspect of the collecting the set portion that'll supersede the player itself, which, which adds to the safety of the, the investment point. Well taken. And I'm still sticking with rookie, but you might've convinced other people of it, but you know, I'm glad you brought Rory. Are you selling that car? Are you keeping like, this is a great time, isn't it? to consider your options? It's a big moment, it's a big moment. Yeah, I'm highly, highly considerate. The problem is that I was planning to go to the expo but I don't think I can make it anymore. So I'm going to have to rely on Will to help me wheel and deal a little bit. All right, well, we have booths. Will, Roy and I all have booths. So yeah, we'll try to help you out there. I'm going to need your assistance. Anytime, anytime. All right, we'll finish off with my pick one really quick. We kind of mentioned it, the All Aces, Shohei Ohtani, PSA 10. I think the pop count, let me actually double check. The pop count is for PSA 10. Oh, is this just under 3,000? Is this a common year or the latest? 2023, sorry, the first All Aces year where the pop count was higher. Right, this is the common year. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes, that's right, yeah, common year, yeah. So 2,864 PSA 10s. All right, so definitely higher than 2024 and 2025. Right, still fairly low. I mean, it's like low in Pokemon standards. Yeah, everything's relative. So the All Aces, PSA 10 going for about 1,200 right now. Or would you want the... And I'm choosing like Ohtani cards that are around the $1,000 marks because there are some that are out there, but this is what you're stuck with. Not stuck with, but this is what's available. The All Aces, PSA 10, or the 2024 Tops 5050 set, which has a lot of different refractors. There's an orange one, and it's home run number 23. So it's not number one or number 50, which is the more desired, more valued ones. But there is a 2024 Tops 5050, Shouei Ohtani, orange refractor, chrome refractor, PSA 10 as well, number 25, of course, for 1,300. So let's say $1,200, $1,300, that's your budget. Which one would you rather buy? Hang on, remind me again, the Tops 5050, was that like special collector's edition set, right? Exactly, with each card of 50 home runs and 50 steals having a different picture. And most of them are base cards, paper, but then there were some insert, short print, chrome cards like this one that I just talked about. It's just a home run number 23. So it's nothing, not a special home run, but still an orange refractor, chrome card. Right. Orange refractor is numbered at a 25. Mm-hmm. It's a lot more rare. So I think, man, it is appealing because it's a lot more rare. It's way more niche. Mm-hmm. There is a set collecting component. I don't know where the All-Kings stands because I don't know if it's like a balloon price right now. All Aces. All Aces, right, sorry, the pitching version. But it's a case hit, right? I don't know where it... After you're talking about, I think it's a case hit. I don't think the original All Aces was a case hit. I think it was literally, it was just like an insert. Insert, yes. Yeah. So I don't know if this is like, that price is just people really going crazy because the new All Aces, it's a real SSP. Mm-hmm. And they're just kind of falling for it. The one thing I do like about the All Aces, it obviously would be pretty liquid. Not that you need anything more liquid than Otani cards. Yeah. And it's also the eye appeal. I'm not sure what the 50-50 looks, but I would assume, I think most people would prefer the All Aces. I'm going to take the risk and I'm going to take the All Aces, the liquidity of the All Aces, the popularity. Yeah. It's still going to grow. I'm just a little hesitant on whether that price will hold. Yeah. If it's kind of like a hype price. But I like the way it looks. I think even if you're just a straight collector, and I think that's probably a big reason why the price is what it is. I think a lot of people want it for their collection because of the eye appeal. So I'm going to go All Aces. Yeah. Nice. I'm going to make it quick. I agree with you 100%. And I think the orange refractor, because it is in a set of 50 home runs and 50 stolen bases, each of those cards have refractors, right? I believe. So it's not just the number 25. That home run specifically is number 25, and that's a parallel of that card. But home run number 24, I think, also has an orange refractor, and home run 25 has a… So there's a lot of refractor parallels in that limited set as well. And I like the fact with the All Aces, 2023, I believe, was the first year they issued that. So it's like the… It's equivalent for me why my 2022 Home Field Advantage set was the first year they kind of reintroduced that subset into the cards. And now, every year subsequent from that, it's being offered each year. So like 2023 All Aces was when it was launched, so to speak. And so I like that aspect of it too. And visually, I agree with you. I think the All Aces looks great. So easy one, easy sweep for the All Aces. Although I do think it's overpriced. But at the same time, is anything Otani overpriced now? In a week, we're like, oh, what a deal, what a steal. So I feel like that's what we're saying a lot these days. All right. Thanks again for all our listeners who tune in week after week. We appreciate you guys and we'll have a brand new episode for you. I believe Friday for this week. Talk to you then. Bye. You can also check us out at 5cardguys.com. Thanks again and hope to connect soon.