What's Working and What's Not Working In The Hobby (Dissecting The Athletic Article); High Profile Soccer Players Coming To MLS Good For Soccer Card Market?

You're listening to Cards to the Moon, a podcast about trading cards from both a collector and investor perspective. We hope you'll stick around for the ride as we take a deep dive into the state of the hobby, share some hot takes, hopefully some useful advice and fun stories along the way. Hey guys, welcome back to Cards to the Moon. This is episode 310 and my name is Clark from 5cardguys.com and you can find me on Instagram, YouTube and on Facebook at 5cardguys, it's all one word and the number 5 is spelled out. I know a lot of people make that mistake. Co-hosting with me, as usual, is Hyung, who is at ChoHyung on Instagram and on YouTube as well. And John, he's off for this month, he's super busy, but we're looking forward to having him back on the pod in September. Okay, off the top today, Hyung, remember when we had our Son Heung-min National Landmarks cards? Oh yeah. We both ended up selling and I think Roy still has his, but anyway, Sonny, we know, just got transferred to the Los Angeles Football Club in the MLS League. Now I'm going to ask the same question when Lionel Messi went from playing in Europe to enter Miami FC and that question is, you think soccer cards will become generally more popular as more higher profile soccer players come to play in North America? And a follow up question to that is, are you backing on Sonny cards? I don't think I never left. I think it's always going to be a collectible for me or someone who I would collect just based off just him being Korean, I'm Korean, so it's a cultural thing for me. So I don't think I would never leave that space, but I also, realistically, I don't really think it's going to do anything, it's not going to move the needle, but I like where your head's at in terms of as bigger profile names come to the western part of the world, I do think it will help with soccer cards in general because I think a lot of the collectors in the western part of the world, they're still not, they're not in on soccer cards or there's no reason to, so at least it will give a reason to kind of get into that space and you're seeing it everywhere in all sports. So you see it in Europe, obviously football is their main sport and then now it's getting more popular in the western part of the world and vice versa. Baseball is dominated for the last 100 years or so in baseball, now it's becoming a global sport where there's a lot more countries that are participating in baseball at a really high level, so you're kind of seeing a globalization in sports in general. I think there's not that bias, so I think if anything, to point that in the direction, I think those are great fundamentals for a sustainable market like soccer cards. So I don't think the move with Sonny in particular, even though I'm biased, you know, I'm happy with that move, but I don't think from a hobby perspective it's going to necessarily move the needle, but move the needle in a very small way each player at a time, yes. I generally agree with your assessment. I think the globalization of sports like you're talking about, but also the globalization of trading cards, it's just becoming more accessible around the world. So I think those two things working together, I'm optimistic about the soccer card market, I'm optimistic about the wrestling card market, all these niche trading card sectors, there's an interesting place to be had, and you know, with Will and Roy, we talk about like wrestling cards can be, I don't want to say the next Pokemon, but there is room for growth is what the main point was, right? For sure, and I think that's what, I think the lesson with this, if you look at it from an unbiased macro lens, is that as long as the culture is there, the collectability will be there. It's up to the people in charge of the narrative, which is, at this point, fanatics really, to be able to tell that narrative of that, right, is really kind of expose the culture and why it works in baseball, for instance. Why does the card community work in baseball? What's good? What can we extract from that? What do you see in the Pokemon cards? What can we extract from that collectability and kind of like that experience, and everybody will say, well, we love the hobby. And what that is ultimately saying is, it's the culture, right? It's the culture that you're in, the way everything's working. And like I said, it's not perfect. There's a lot of things that obviously need to be addressed, but that's the evolution of this, what we're talking about. That's why it's tough, because if you always... We're talking about this every week, and that's almost like looking at the micro lens, but in the bigger picture, you look at the last five years or so, there's a huge evolvement around the hobby, and it's something that we have no say or control over, so it's kind of like accepting that so that I guess you could enjoy it more. Sure. And you know what? That's kind of a good tease to what we're going to be talking in Hobby Headlines, because they asked some industry leaders what's working in the hobby and what's not working after being in it for a number of years. So I think that'll be an interesting segment coming up. But just to put a bow on this whole soccer card thing and kind of like what we're talking about in terms of the growth of the hobby, I had Wolf Hearts cards on the pod just last week for one of our recent Friday episodes, and he's a soccer card collector. He's based in the US, and he was sharing how the soccer card expo went in Chicago at the same time as a national, and there's a growing number of vendors, and then he was also talking about Messi's, you know, when he came to Inter-Miami FC and how that created the frenzy, like good luck trying to get a game in Miami because of Messi, you know? And so now, you know, I'm not saying Sonny equals Messi, but just more of these European high-profile players coming to MLS can only grow the game of soccer or, you know, soccer fandom, and I think soccer cards will be a natural extension of that, and you know, I've heard Mike Mahan, Fnatic's CEO, or Fnatic's Collect CEO say the same thing, that, you know, trading cards in general is one of the best expressions of your sports fandom, like whatever team you root for or whatever player you like, it's just, you know, a no-brainer sometimes just to make that little leap into the world of trading cards. So you know, I think we're on the same page here. We're really bullish on the hobby in general, but yeah, there is opportunities for like soccer cards and other more niche cards in this hobby. For sure. All right. With that, let's move on to hobby headlines. So I read another article from The Athletic, and this time it was just asking some key people in the hobby, as I've just mentioned, and I believe they asked them at the National a couple weeks ago two simple questions, right? And the first one was, what's working within the hobby? And the second, what's not working? All right. So I'll include the link in the article in the show notes below. But for today's pod, I thought I can go over some of the responses and see if we agree or disagree with them. All right. So let's start with what's working within the hobby. They asked Ken Golden this question of Golden Auctions, and this is what he said, quote, Quite frankly, the cementing of women's sports as a category. In 2012, it did not exist. Then a couple of Serena Williams cards hit, and then somebody who captured the world's imagination like Caitlin Clark comes in and we sell one of her college cards. I think it was like $90,000. And people go, oh my God. And then he continues to say, it's really creating a new industry and it created a new mindset for a lot of people. That without question is the biggest change over the past couple of years in trading cards. End quote. What do you think? Biggest change? Maybe not. Right. But I could see, okay, and I'm going to be tough. I'm going to put my tough goggles on here because I could see how, well, how can we trust that that's not manufactured? You know what I mean? What are we talking about here, Ken? Because let's call, well, that could be manipulated. That could be intentionally done artificially. Who are these people that are buying up the cards, right? So it's like we can't necessarily say that that's true in the sense that is it real growth or not? And I know they're pushing that agenda to be relevant. And like I said, it's not wrong at the same time. I'm not saying that he's wrong at the same time. Just look at it from the outside in lens too. To be fair, it's like, well, I think there's more things that grew in the hobby or more positive things than the women's side of things. But it's not false what he's claiming either. There has been a surge. So yes, there is growth in that side too. Yeah. I mean, it's an obvious conflict of interest for him too, right? That he would want it to grow. He's selling it. Like a new market to grow. Yeah. He's a salesman. He's good at it, right? So I don't fault him for that. But yeah, exactly like you said, it's not wrong either or it's not incorrect to say that this has become a category within the hobby, right? Like it is legitimate WNBA cards are gaining in popularity. And you mentioned Serena Williams too. Stuff like that definitely helps that so he's not wrong, right? Yeah. Yeah. And it's one of those classic things. Time will tell, right? To see if it just has that staying power. But it is the in thing right now. Kaitlyn Clark logo main cards are popping off, so it's staying in the headlines. But let's see in a year, let's see in two years if it still has that momentum. All right. Brian Hogue, PSA president said this, I think the level of new people coming into the hobby at different ages, men and women, that's going really well. I think it's fun and you're seeing innovative ways to buy cards. You're seeing innovative ways to collect them, to sell them, to connect with the community. 100%. 100% agree. I have no problem with that. He's not wrong. And it's not, there's no necessarily a bias behind it. And that's what I'm looking at in this lens. It's like, why is he saying this? Will it benefit him personally or is he supposed to say that based on his positioning? But it's fair. It's very unbiased. I think it's healthy in general and he's correct. That's what we've seen and that's what we preach. And you know, I 100% agree. Yeah. No one's 100% objective, but yes, that's what we've seen and that's what we talked about on the podcast. Yeah. Like all these new innovative ways within the hobby that are taking place. And I think if you go look back in our catalog of episodes, man, every year it's something new is happening and it's, you know, we have something to talk about. That's why we, we can still do this in our fifth season. 100%. If it was, yeah, if it was the same, we're like, okay, we're just rehashing what cards we like and what we don't like, but because, yeah, because you know, our podcast is issues based as well. There's no shortage of things to talk about within the hobby. So so yeah, we're completely aligned with Ryan here. Okay. Brian Lee, fellow Korean arena club, CEO and founder. He says this quote, I think the hobby is continuing to grow. As you notice walking the national here, it's the most packed I've ever seen it. You see these young kids get involved now. And he says it's at least 25% of the folks in here are under 18, right? So that means that the hobby is very healthy. It's growing, it's extending, and it's price safe for future generations or secure for future generations. And then he says, I also think it's just more awareness to I think fanatics has done an amazing job in terms of bringing more awareness to the hobby. Yeah, I mean, it's, I can't say that none of that's true. It's it's, it's fact, you know, we've had more participation in both, you know, the national and, you know, fanatics fest. So and there's a lot more card shows, there's a lot more participation in the in the youth. And that's obviously from a business lens. That's what they kind of want, because that's going to be your future, you know, demographics as well. So and to put that, you know, in perspective to, you know, we we've talked about fanatics telling the narrative. And that's exactly what someone in the industry is seeing it from as well, because he's piggybacking on that, right. So it's, it's the awareness, it's the tools that fanatics is using to market the hobby as a whole, to merge the the differences between fan and collector. I think that that is a huge thing that fanatics is doing really doing well. And how they're doing that is they're marketing their players, they're marketing things that, you know, merge that gap between, oh, he's a superstar, and I'm just a fan. And there's some gap between there. So they understand that cultural significance. So yeah, I'm, we've talked about this on many pods, you know, fanatic, it's up to fanatics in terms of how they're marketing it. And I think they're winning that game for sure. Yeah. And it's funny, you say all those things, because the next quarter will be from Mike Mahan, fanatics collectibles CEO. But before we get to that, on Brian Lee's point about the youth, just getting more involved, and I was at the national, right, and I was kind of seeing what's going on and it's a hundred percent true like the youth are you know they all have their zion cases and then i was joking with someone that um they're pretty savvy too in the hobby right you know they come up to me and they look at some of my cards and and then they're trying to negotiate and for some reason i'm getting nervous talking to a 12 year old you know what i mean like it's like they're very aggressive and they very they know what they're talking about they're like no you know can you come down with this comp and but i'm like just speaking really quickly you know like what's going on here right so uh and you know some of them do have lots of cash as well yeah and something to it's crazy i add to that like the youth you got to remember this is their childhood this is the only they don't know what we experienced as kids they don't care about the issues that we see you know what i mean so it's like we shouldn't ruin it because we see it in a different lens like kids don't this is their childhood this is what they look forward to every weekend it's like why are you going to ruin that like when if we had a card show when we were kids even opening packs if you could afford a pack of cards that opening was the highlight of you know your childhood right so just just to put into perspective we we see all these issues but at the end of the day it's someone's childhood and you know seeing the youth this much youth being involved in it it's um it it's a positive sign but at the same time it's like i think it's our job to make the hobby a healthy way to you know even live life like you learn a lot of skill sets as as uh you know in terms of business and how transactions how to sell how to talk to people how to communicate those are all things that you know are positives within the hobby that you know we should instill in that youth which they're getting from this yeah and i mean like one of the big differences though between this generation and you know when we collected is technology social media right right so um it doesn't surprise me that actually as the hobby grows and and you know companies like tops and fanatics and and all the other big players that do well on social media will garner the more of the attention with the youth today because that's where they are and i think in in sense it's not as surprising as it probably should be you know um that they're getting more involved because they're getting exposed to the hobby on their phones essentially and and you know um you know people can complain that oh they're all about flipping now because they see the money involved but you know at its core it was always about the chase we didn't have that technology but we still wanted to hit the big card for sure you know um we wanted to hit that todd van poppel you know and because we thought that was going to make us rich in the future but you know they just have more data so kids these days just have more data and they have a they have more marketplaces where they could flip and sell so good for them being able to take advantage of that all right we mentioned mike mahan this is his quote and i think this is going to be a quick agree but he says it always starts with the product and i think that while not perfect i think we are making special products i think the team has made a massive amount of product innovation i think the way we're dealing with athletes and bringing them into the hobby whether it's tops rip night whether it's signing whether it's fanatics fest whether it's those participating in social media 100 and this is where i could back it it's like i know these even the younger generational kids that are in professional baseball major league baseball they're not doing it because it's like a contract like back back in the day we would say okay i got to do this because you know i have a contract with them or whatever it's it's it's part of the gig but these guys are actually wanting to participate that's the difference is it's it's an actual thing that you know uh that even athletes enjoy and like i said it's like the if you could merge the culture from that fan to uh the athlete which i think they're doing really well i think this is exactly what what uh what he's talking about too so yeah for sure because later on in the quote and i've heard him say this on other podcasts he says maybe 10 11 12 major league baseball players um were collectors like a few years ago now it's like over it's a few hundred you know i mean like it's crazy people are just getting more involved in the hobby like major league baseball players and then you're seeing just even on social media more of them just ripping in the clubhouse you know and seeing what they get right or or i hear like um you know when they go travel to a city they look for the local hobby shop because they just want to rip they just want to buy wax you know it's becoming a thing now and it's it's just a matter of time where you know like if you think about it why aren't there crazy hobby shops in every single major league baseball venue you know what i mean there should be multiple hobby shops within yes you know a baseball stadium just my opinion i think that's where it's eventually going to go too because mlb is going to see you know um the profitability on on that side because obviously fanatics is doing it and you know it makes sense because you have 50 000 people in a stadium you know and they're all baseball fans and what more emotional experience with ripping cards at a stadium you know what i mean so for sure i think there's that huge opportunity with with that as well i think it's slowly happening i mean shout out to chris costa and the team at card vault by tom brady during the national i don't know if you heard but they had the grand opening of their call vault by tom brady shop right inside wrigley field so it's happening already right yeah yeah yeah that's that's right and a bunch of the cubs players they were they were there wanting to rip cases so you know there's proof right there yeah there's proof of concept all right uh let's move on to the second question i think this is far more interesting what's not working okay and this again from ken golden he says i think licensed manufacturers need to put out a product that the consumer is happier with so that a first-time buyer doesn't feel they spent 150 a box and then they go on what whatever app they use and they see their cards are worth 14 that has to stop happening i uh first off i i'm glad that they asked this question more so than what's positive because this is personal accountability now yes right and these are leaders if they're the leaders in the industry this is what hey they see set it out in public this is what we want to see and to me that's a positive thing if they know that it's an issue or they're trying to address that issue that's exactly what we need this is a roundtable discussion of what sucks and what needs to be fixed so these guys are you know putting themselves up their self-accountability then it's like then do something about it you guys are the ones that said it so i love this that you know people are talking about it and i couldn't agree more it's like hey the experience that fanatics needs to create the ripping experience has to change because there's way more value that they can put in the boxes without even trying like they have the resources to make it a less of a painful rip right you're not going to change the secondary economics of the of the reselling so it's like you can't change the card scarcity but what you can do is make it less damaging we've all don't rip for that purpose because they're like oh man it's like most likely you're going to come out with you know less than 10 percent of the box in in value so it's like how can they when whether that's partnerships of national brands like taco bell like win a free taco or win a free dinner like who knows like just put more value where it's not costing the company money but at the same time it's providing a better experience i've always said that the experience from a sheer ripping perspective is horrific they need to improve the hat because most likely you're better off you know playing roulette seriously you're going to do better off roulette in terms of roi but there's a chance you hit and that's what people are chasing but if they could create a better experience where it's not as bad where you could get your value in some other way and the way you do that is through partnerships you have so many partnerships that can participate from a marketing standpoint there's a lot of opportunity there i'm hoping that you know they go through that fanatics actually goes through that process to make the experience better yes yeah i mean they got to be a little bit more creative and you know they're not doing nothing right so um i i want to give them a little bit of rope here but but yes it's if there's one thing that hasn't improved and it it's not a hundred percent their fault because the hobby is growing and they're trying to meet that demand but as a side consequence the ripping experience and the roi has become far worse than you know when we actually got back into the hobby you know before the covid uh even before the covid uh uh peak right so um case in point you know i went to national i bought a box of 2025 tops chrome uh hobby box and i'm gonna edit that so you can see what i got i think it was what 250 bucks somewhere around there i just sold a christian campbell aqua parallel number 299 that was nice but i sold it for a huge 15 dollars right and then i also have my auto was i got an auto as um grant mccray do you know who grant mccray is i do not okay that's there you go you just proven my point uh san francisco giants rookie it was at least it's a refractor i guess numbered 499 and uh it's an on-card auto so i can't you know these two things i think it's worth 10 bucks so there you go $25 of value what did where did you pull the acuna out of top series two oh wow that's crazy yes that so it's a risk either way and and that yeah um i was just expected to get a relic like i usually do and i did get a relic but i also caught i got an on-card relic auto of ronald acuna numbered to five yeah that's crazy that's crazy hit very lucky very lucky and i'll show that once i edit it i'll show that on the five card guys instagram account yeah it's a gamble though at the end of the day even then it's like what are you going to get for that you don't necessarily make your money back right or just break even break even like yes yes for the impossible hit that's that's what we're looking at so yes golden has a good point there all right uh ryan hogue again psa president he says this i want to make sure that the hobby doesn't lose kind of the collector focus it seems like it's heavily indexing on the hustler like the flipper that's cool that's faster you know way to make money that's fun but i think you need to have a healthy balance the hobby has always had this tension of passion and nostalgia versus profit i'm gonna i'm gonna keep mr hoag accountable here hey you guys are one of the leaders let's look at your marketing are you pushing any of that are you pushing any of that hey what's this hobby collect is it more for a collector experience that's what you want you have the power to market that that's the narrative that you guys should be using as a marketing tool right if that's what you want to see the hobby why aren't you why isn't your marketing flooded with that right same with fanatics it's like i agree with that point but hey if that's the case then you know be the example that's it just be this is where i'm talking about self-accountability this is a perfect example you're able psa is big enough if if you want that you could preach that and i think it's a very positive message and it needs to you know um be preached out there just because i think there's a lot of kids that aren't aware of all these issues so yes i agree and i'm gonna hold him do one above and hold him accountable say you guys are the ones in charge so let's see what psa does sure i mean it's ironic right that what's psa really known for for a lot of people flip it and we know that's yeah 3x 4x 10x you know the the raw charges if it gets it why is there up charges right if it's if it's not about the secondary market 100 so there you go i mean you know i don't fault psa as a company you got to make money and people are willing to pay but yeah if this is what he really means as well uh to focus on the more collector side of things then certainly they could do more yeah healthy balance healthy balance agreed all right we're going to mike mahan again this is what he says the collector experience within the ecosystem is not great and there have been years if not decades of what i'll call collector neglect that we've inherited some of those things take time to fix and with the state of where we're at right now in the hobby focusing on both quality control improvements and getting product out on time and meeting the demands of where collectors are today and all of the on-card autographs and the relics that collectors rightfully expect that's hard end quote i mean i think that's a given i think sure you know that's just standard expectations you rely on the manufacturer and the people in charge so i think that's always been an issue so we as it grows bigger too you know even going back to the experience those are things that you know need foundational work and and the good thing about all this like thinking about this right now it's this is good because whether you like it or not how far we've come in the hobby has forced these issues to surface these issues would have been hidden had someone not taken the bull by the horn and went forward with this is the way we see the hobby and as they do that what we see is all the issues that have always been there they're just coming to light so would you rather fix the issue and know that the issue was there in the first place or would you rather be blindsided to it for those i'm just saying this in general context for those that are bitter about the hobby, let's say, right? It's like, this is this is how you fix the hobby, you have to go through it in order to see that it was an issue in the first place. And then you address the issue. So seeing all these points, I love this because of that, just given that context out there. But yeah, I agree, just standard, you know, quality issue controls from the manufacturers, redemptions, the process, all that needs to be fixed. And those are foundational things that I expect that they're going to be addressed, and it's going to be a better experience overall. Yes. Yeah, for sure. And, you know, I think a lot of us will agree that they've inherited a lot of this mess, right? Because it's been, I agree, I do agree with man, like, the collector, in general has been taken for granted for a long time. So I'm glad to see fanatics kind of step in and do what they're doing, trying to improve the processes, and things like that. But now that they've inherited it, now that they've are the main, essentially the number one player in this hobby, in terms of manufacturing of trading cards, they're going to run into issues, as well, like new issues, unforeseen issues, for sure. And I hope that they will be just as transparent with the issues they cause, you know, whether unforeseen or whether they had an idea, and they didn't execute it. Well, I hope that they will be transparent and fixing those issues moving forward as well. It's not you can't, you can only blame the past for so long. Until we're like, okay, now fanatics, you had a lot of time to fix a lot of things. But now these new issues, we want you to be accountable to those right. And I think it goes back to and this is why I am bullish on fanatics is because what you said is a business the size of fanatics, if they're able to solve these macro issues, then there's so much opportunity for them. And to me, Michael Rubin is someone that sees it from that lens. So when I see some a leader of the whole ship, that's his whole strength is to address these issues to fix it, to do what it takes to, you know, turn that issue into a solution. And to me, you know, that's why I believe in a company like fanatics is because I see them doing that I see them making those, you know, the efforts to address these issues that need to be addressed. And this is why someone and not to, you know, push blame, this is where I would like to see upper deck, you know, like I seen a few comments with the upper deck presidents, like, well, these are the opportunities, I'd like to see upper deck take as well, because they've been kind of in the shadows. And I know they're trying to protect their brand. But, you know, upper deck, are they there on delivery every, every year with their product? How how far back is SP? I don't, I don't even know if they're caught up. But if you can't release a year after like this, it's just doesn't work, right? So yeah, yeah, for sure. For sure. And, you know, as collectors, we'll definitely keep those companies accountable. Like that's what we do best, right? In terms of what we express what we like and what we don't like. So I'm sure that will continue. Speaking of upper deck, this last quote I have for the segment, Jason Mishara, who is the upper deck president says this about what's not working. Quote, I think the elephant in the room right now is the responsibility of the manufacturers to provide easier authentication services, both on the memorabilia and the trading card side of the ledger. I think whenever a market is super hot, you end up attracting a lot of bad actors. It's hard because every time you take a step forward, the bad actors catch up and sometimes go ahead. How do we as manufacturers try to stay ahead of the back actors in the industry? End quote. I think you can't change the bad actors, you know, it comes with the territory to be around, they're always going to be around. And it's it's what you do on your day to day as a manufacturer that's going to dictate whether that consumer confident is there because to me, it's like you could blame things. And to me, it's not saying that he's necessarily wrong. Like, I, yeah, I agree, because there's all these issues with authentication and stuff. And but it goes back to well, this there's always been, this is problems in the 80s, 90s been ongoing, people tried hiding them, they're all coming to the surface now, because, you know, change is happening. So yes, like, I agree with that. But yeah, I just feel like it's it's a little biased on his end. Because, you know, they've been doing a good job with with those things. But just because there's bad actors in it doesn't necessarily mean that the manufacturers aren't responsible for that as a manufacturer that's given it's like you have to make sure that that is your prime product. Those are things that I expect from upper deck. Those are things that I expect from tops chrome. Those are things that I expect from panini, you know, that they are the companies that provide the value product. Otherwise, if if they're, you know, fake authentication, it's like, why would I want to even, you know, rip a certain product, right? If that's what they stand for. So those are things that I think you can't change. But as a brand, you have to do whatever it takes to make sure that consumer confidence is there. And you know what, it's not all bad. It's like, I'm glad that's being addressed. Because I think a lot of the stuff, the history of even, you know, cards of trimming, like all these negative things that were in a hobby, those were just hidden there, they always existed. But like, we got to make the hobby better. And the way we do that is by letting these issues come to light. And now holding people accountable, the leaders in this industry to now put those in place to make sure those can happen. That's it. Right? Yeah, yeah, I think we're generally thinking the same thing, they just need to be a little more proactive, right, rather than responding to whatever new thing that bad actors are, you know, doing, right. And like you said, there's always bad actors around, there's certainly bad actors around when there's money involved, if there's money to be made, you got to expect it, right, you got to expect it. So how do I be proactive about, you know, protecting the consumer, right, you know, in a way that it doesn't get really bad, and then you're just kind of reacting to the situation. And I think that's the best way to always look at business or always look at an industry and especially in an industry where our economy is upside down, yet we have a growing emerging industry, right? That tells me a lot, it's like, it's not the same way that it used to be. That's why everything that used to be is going to crap. And the innovators see the opportunity here. And they're being proactive to make sure that you they solidify it through real value. Because real value will be the only thing that sustains a crashing economy, right? Why else would it stand, you can't manufacture something against a river that's just pushing through and you're, you're swimming upstream, thinking that you're going to change things like you have to go to your guns and why, you know, people value something in the first place. So to me, what do you think fanatics has been doing? It's like, that's what you I want to see from Beckett. That's what I want to see from Upper Deck. That's what I want to see from all these big players in the game that have the opportunity right now in, in a huge emerging market. We've said this, you know, it's been emerging. It's not, oh, will it emerge? It's like, No, man, we've seen it. And the crash wasn't as bad as you thought it was a severe correction. But a lot of these cards are sustaining value because people are seeing value differently as a collector. So to me, it goes back on accountability. I like this because this is where, okay, we'll see. Now that you guys said it as a whole industry. It's like, can you guys now make it better? And that's your job too, right? Yes, sir. And, you know, there's more quotes from this article, like, and like I said, I'll include include the link in the show notes. But like Armand Wilson, he's the whatnot vice president of categories. And he says something similar about building a trusted platform, right? So like, whatnot's fairly new, and I know they get a ton of criticism. And rightly so, because it is a new platform. And, and there's it's growing pains there. But, but yeah, we want to see as a hobby grows. This is what you got to deal with, especially if you're a manufacturer, especially if you're building a platform. That's part of the territory. Alright, great article. I thought it was insightful. And yeah, you should give it a full read if you get a chance. Okay, let's move on to over under. All right, we've been doing this a few times lately, and I think it's been fun. And I think the last time I did it, I chose a big money amount. So I'm going to bring it back down to 1000 bucks. Okay, that's the number today. So you tell me if these lists of cards last sold, I think I chose cards that sold within the past couple weeks for more or for over or under 1000 bucks. All right, first one, just maybe a guest to you because we're not huge football card collectors. But the 2024 panini prism silver prism, Jaden Daniels rookie card PSA 10. What? What? What? What is it? The Jaden Daniels silver prism rookie cards over PSA 10. PSA 10. Once the once gold standard silver prism 2024 pop count 455. So it wasn't like the COVID. Yeah, not too bad. But I think that did expand a lot more. And pricing did fall. So I'm going to say under 1200. Oh, so Daniels is hot. Yeah, so so maybe maybe I would say that the pop count is holding it that high. So that's going to be the kicker. I think whether it falls below 1000 is the more it pops up. And you know that there's more than there's more than 455 out there. You know, maybe there's pop control. We can't prove it. But you know, there are some certain cards PSA likes to control the population. True. My opinion only my opinion. Okay. Alright, let's go to 2024 Bowman. There's the 1955 Bowman anime I'm subset gold refractor number 250 of Julio Rodriguez PSA 10. I really like Jera I think people are crapping on Jera like I'm telling you this guy's a superstar he's a great he's a great buy in my opinion just in general I just if you're long term like Jera watch he hasn't even hit his stride when he hits his stride he's a 4040 guy so like I'm gonna say it's under because Jera market is super soft yeah I chose Jera for a reason you know who else would agree with you Brent Ware a friend of the pod deep value investor he's he's starting to collect a lot of Jera because he thinks he's undervalued right now just as you do and I chose him because yes the gold refractor this I know it's a subset but it is a gold refractor number 250 I like it 500 bucks there you go it's he's uh it's a good buy for Jera in general yes I think I agree yeah all right here we'll go a little bit older now uh Bo Jackson 1987 tops Tiffany future stars it's kind of cool to see the actual future stars yes I remember that I remember that card too do you it's yeah it's uh nostalgia uh whenever I think about this card PSA 10 is 575 you know what I I feel like I feel like the junk wax era is still there's still a market there with you know because it's super low pop in general because I think PSA 10s are hard so I'm going to include this in the mix that it wasn't ever $1,000 card I don't even think so so I think it's a new record that it's over a thousand you know you should have gone with your first assessment I don't think it was ever a thousand dollar card it's 750 so it's still under yes but it's trending up I believe so I will have to double check yeah I would I would think that was like a hundred bucks like right at one point yeah I think so too all right uh two more 2018 tops update this paper of one solo gold number two 2018 PSA 10 PSA 10 272 for the PSA dang I'm saying it better be over if it's not over it's a buy I'm telling you right now it's a buy if it's not over it has to be over all right I think you got to go on ebay right after this 900 bucks it's a buy man I'm telling you it's a buy it's a buy usually I also think yeah yeah usually I I think golds on players like that anything under a thousand and this used to be true to rainbow foils as well which is you know even less desirable than the golds but I think a gold PSA 10 of Juan Soto the us 300 because think about it his only rookie image in 2018 that people know is that one image and that's the same image for tops chrome and it because it was tops chrome update he wasn't in series one or series two right so it becomes that image and it's parallel so the only parallels really is the the I guess it would be you know up to refract the x factor refractors and then you have your base the refractors are numbered and then you have no other parallels, right? Other than your pink and sepias, and then that gold becomes very valuable. That's why I'm saying, I'm justifying, hey, $900 is a buy for Sodo. I don't care what anybody says. This guy's a generational talent. He's gonna be a hundred plus war player. So if you're looking for short term, even short term I think he's a great buy. But long term, great, great buy. I like it for that price for sure. 272 pop cat. There you go. Last one. This might be a total guess for you, but I picked it for a reason. The 2023 Pokemon Van Gogh Pikachu with gray felt hat. Very popular PSA 10 pop count for this PSA 10 is closing in on 42,000. What? 42,000 pop count. The most graded Pokemon card in history. And what's so special about this card, Clark, that makes it a thousand dollar card? Just look at the art, man. We've had this conversation. So this would be consensus, that people are like, man, I've seen some, you know, Picassos, but this is like, you know, this is art. And this is why, this is everybody's on the consensus page of that the card is very eye appealing. I think the majority would agree, especially if you own one. So, but yeah. And then there's no news happened with this character or anything like that, right? Like. Nothing scandalous with Pikachu. No, but. Oh, it's a Pikachu? Or nothing. It's a Pikachu. It's a Pikachu. So you have the collectability there for sure. 42,000 is crazy. And because the market is so hot, I'm gonna say it's over because it's one of those things where, you know, everybody needs one in their collection. And this is a total guess because I have no clue, but I know the Pokemon market is on fire. And usually with that comes spending habits. So 42,000 people, including you and Roy, have it. Including. I think Roy sold his last one. So if he's selling, it's over a thousand. There you go. Correct assessment. 1240. There you go. And I do have one. Or my wife has one. I gave it to her as a gift when it was three, 400 bucks. Amazing. And look where it is now. Sell. It's like, where is it? Oh yeah, I had to sell. Sorry. Top 42,000. Get her into something a little more low pop. I'll talk to her afterwards. All right, that's our over under segment. Let's finish off this episode with our weekly segment called Pick One. All right, I think I know what you're gonna go with. You don't? I'm gonna throw a curve ball at you. Oh. So I'm gonna take a little break. I still think Aaron judges a buy. So we're gonna continue that. But I wanna highlight someone who else I think is a great buy that is not getting the credit. And we've said it a lot on this podcast throughout the years. You can never doubt someone who has an 80 hit tool. And there's only been a couple 80 hit tools coming through the prospect. And one of them is obviously Vladdy Guerrero Jr. And too many people have doubted his ability. Again, he starts slow. This time he's getting hot again. He's gonna put up ridiculous numbers. And guess what? He's actually, that play he made with Bo Bichette the other day, like insane. It's like, you gotta love where the Blue Jays are. You gotta love that they've invested heavily on Vladdy. That he's a Blue Jay lifer. 80 hit tool. He's carrying the team. He's gonna keep it through this playoff run. So I'm saying Vladdy is a buy. He's always been a buy for the last four years. He was way too high of a prospect. So now we're at a point where Vladdy prices are kind of laughable to be honest. Because his 2016 Bowman Chrome refractor auto, so numbered to 499, a PSA 9, sold for $580. Wow, too cheap. A refractor, 2016 Bowman Chrome first. Think of Otani's pricing. I know they're not the same, but they're not that different, right? Judge to Vladdy, they're not that much different. If Vladdy keeps this up, he'll be just as good as Judge when it's all said and done, right? So to me, Vladdy is crazy. The market's crazy. So 580 bucks for a PSA 9, Bowman Chrome refractor auto, numbered to 499. Okay? I'm gonna pair that up against a 2019 Topps Chrome auto. Okay, so his rookie auto. A Gold Wave, numbered to 50. SGC 10, okay, sold for 930 bucks. So a little more than the PSA 9 Bowman refractor 9. But I still think a Gold Wave refractor, SGC 10 auto 10, numbered to 50 for 930 bucks. Pretty decent pricing, not saying it's the best price. I think the better deal is the Bowman in my opinion, but I still think both have enormous legs based on the type of player Vladdy is, and how we see the marketplace react to high performers like Vladdy. Yes. Ooh, that's a good one because let's say, let's play it out, right? That Vladdy becomes this generational player and he has the stats to back it up over the next five, 10 years, right? Which card would I rather have, right? So refractor, Bowman Chrome. So versus the Topps Chrome Gold Wave, right? That's what you're saying? Right. And then the PSA 9 versus SGC, what was it again? 10, SGC 10 Gold Wave versus PSA 9 Bowman refractor out of 499. And then just to throw you a little curve ball, think of it as, would you rather have the Bowman Chrome Mike Trout in a refractor, or would you rather have his rookie year, like a rookie auto, I know a lot of them don't exist, right, but in a Trout year, like a Topps update, like a black parallel, something like that. Right, but this is a Topps Chrome, right? This is Topps Chrome Gold Auto, Gold Wave Auto numbered to 50. So there is not the true gold, but it's a Gold Wave Auto and it's SGC 10. So for me, it's Bowman versus Topps. So Bowman wins out every time, right? But then it's the parallel 499 to 50, and then it's the true parallels, right? So the Gold Wave, there's like another, you know, minus point, half a minus point. Right. But I think in this case, I would rather have the rarity. I'm on this rarity kick, man. Like, you know, rather than being a rare collector. You're such a devoted Bowman Chrome, is the Grail, nothing else. I still, I mean, I still love it. And there's a few exceptions, like Mike Trout, actually. I just, Bowman Chrome, that's iconic for me. And I would take that over Topps. What do you think Brent would pick in this situation? The Vladdy, PSA 9, right? Yes. That's a good question. I don't know if the Gold Wave would throw him off. I don't know, because he would ask like, what's at the end of the most desirable card for most people, right? Or what's, you know, the best card for that player. And I don't know if he would dock enough marks because of the Gold Wave parallel that it doesn't become iconic for him. Yeah, right, right. And I think that's just a trend. I think docking points, like, do you know how we as a hobby, we dock points for a Gold Wave? What are we? Think it's out of 50. No, like when it's all said and done, you think somebody cares about whether a Mickey Mantle, if there was a parallel, was numbered to 50. That's the only thing that matters at that point. So I think it's a trend that the true gold, like obviously true gold always gonna, in my heart, is always gonna be the better value, but it's not that different. I agree. The only thing I would argue about it is with modern cards, there are just a lot of different golds too. Ray Wave, Disco, whatever, you know what I mean? Yes. But for 2019, there was a limited amount of gold. I think it's just Gold Wave and true gold, right? There's no Gold Disco or like bubbles or whatever. There's a hundred golds out there, if you wanna include every, you know? Yeah. Like Gold Wave 50, Gold, true gold 50. Yeah. So I'm going with the, yeah, I'm going with the Gold Wave. Wow. In this case. And in an SGC. That's wild. Ah, just crack that out. Crack that out and go to GTS or PSA. I still think Brent would, based on the pricing, Brent would still go with the Refractor 499. But I'm gonna go Gold Wave too. Because I think if I decide to keep it, I think it would be a card with massive, massive eye appeal and that I would like enjoy, just especially Vladdy being, you know, committed to Toronto now and, you know, them doing what they're doing, team becoming what they're becoming, right? So like that, I think I would enjoy the card more. And for that reason, I would choose the Gold. But I don't know if it's gonna be a better payout than the PSA 9 Refractor. So having that balance of, hey, if I decide to keep it, I know I'll do well. If I decide to sell it, I know that Samori would pay an inflated price if I decide to sell it. And I don't think I have that with the Bowman Chrome. I think it's gonna be market price. It's a PSA 9, so it's not gonna be the PSA 10 inflated value. So for that, I would go Gold Wave. All right, we're aligned with that. Yeah, with the PSA 9, yeah, you could crack it out, maybe get a BGS 95. That would be my play, probably. All right, we'll end off with my pick one. This guy has been on the news lately because he's been struggling, but I think we've taken him for granted for so long in the hobby. So this might be a good buy opportunity. His name is Mookie Betts. I think he's batting 240. He's been trying to correct a swing, trying to correct things. Pricing has gone down a little bit. It's actually pretty stable, but I'm gonna put up his 2014 Bowman Chrome Rookie Card Auto or Prospect Auto, numbered to 500, right? PSA 10, went for about 4K, or the blue refractor, numbered to 150, BGS 95. Sorry, say that again? The PSA 10 refractor, numbered to 500. No, of which card? His 2014 Bowman Chrome. His 2014 Bowman, okay. Yeah, yeah, or the blue refractor, numbered to 150, BGS 9.5. This one's an easy one for me. I'm always buy the card first. So we're talking same price? Yep. Yeah, I got it. If we're apples to apples on price, then I'm gonna go with the blue. I thought that would be easy. I just think the PSA 10 value, it might be good, maybe better short term, but I don't think the true value is there, if I'm extracting true value. And I think Mookie Betts is a buy, just in general, because this is baseball. Like, look at Bo Bichette's last year, you know? And look at him this year. And Mookie Betts been doing this, and this is his first, I would say, first or second kind of really down year. But other than that, he's had a flawless 12-year career, and he has Hall of Fame numbers. And this guy's gonna be 100 plus war, probably when it's all said and done. And there's only a few people, few position players that we mentioned that are gonna be able to hit 100 war. So yeah, Mookie Betts is definitely a buy, long term. And I picked the blue. Yeah, I mean, shout out to Brent. We've been talking about him a lot in this episode. But if you asked him what he would choose, I know I could be fully confident that he would choose the blue BGS 9-5 as well. And that's what we're going with. So I just chose that to make that point. And also what you already said, I think Mookie buy, if you're always looking to add him to your collection, this might be the year to do it. Because I think, you know, very, I'm expecting a nice rebound year for him in 2026. That's what I'm expecting. And the buy might be, you know, even better in October, but then October, November, but you run the risk if LA does a crazy playoff run and he becomes something special, then, you know, you might lose out on that opportunity. So it would be monitored from now until November and see how pricing is. Absolutely, put him on your watch list. That's our advice for you guys. All right, thanks for tuning in. Another great episode. And yeah, we'll have a brand new episode for you next week. Talk to you then, bye. Hey, thanks for listening to Cards to the Moon. We'd really appreciate you subscribing to our podcast, wherever you listen to your podcasts. And you can also connect with each of us on Instagram at fivecardguys, or you can follow Hyung at integrity sports cards or John at trade you at recess. You can also check us out at fivecardguys.com. Thanks again and hope to connect soon. Yeah.