Why PSA Expansion News Is Huge For The Hobby; Will WWE Cards Be The Next Big Thing For Collectors Or Die Down Like F1 Cards?; Pick 1 (Wemby Kaboom vs MJ Beam Team)

You're listening to Cards to the Moon, a podcast about trading cards from both a collector and investor perspective. We hope you'll stick around for the ride as we take a deep dive into the state of the hobby, share some hot takes, hopefully some useful advice and fun stories along the way. Hey guys, welcome back to Cards to the Moon. This is episode 264 and my name is Clark from 5cardguys.com and 5cardguys on Instagram and on YouTube. With me co-hosting as usual is Hyung of Integrity Sports Cards and John who is TradeUatRecess. All our links to our social media pages are in the show notes below. Alright, off the top guys, I admit right off the bat that I don't know much about wrestling cards. I actually did one interview in season 3 of the pod if you guys remember with Shane Norton who was a wrestling card collector so you can go back and listen to it from our website. I learned a lot from him but since then, since that interview, I feel like wrestling and the hobby has only grown and has grown a lot. I don't know if Hyung if you remember but when we went to Fanatics Fest, the autograph sessions, the ones that sold out immediately were all the wrestling stars. That kind of surprised me a bit but now that I know how diehard the fans are, it doesn't surprise me as much. More recently, Topps just announced a new long-term partnership with WWE which means there's going to be on-card autograph cards of some of the top wrestlers right now like Rhea Ripley, Cody Rhodes, and even Dwayne The Rock Johnson has cards coming back I believe in 2025, the Topps Chrome set. We really need Will on this show because he's a wrestling fan, the wrestling card collector and I'll try to arrange a time with him for a special Friday pod to talk about his wrestling fandom but for now, general thoughts on this partnership and what's your gut saying about WWE cards? Is this going to be a huge thing? The reason why I ask this question is, is there a possibility that this becomes like F1 where there's this initial hype and we think that it's going to take off because there's international fans for F1, we've talked about this in the pod, but then what ends up happening is that within the hobby, it just kind of fizzles out a little bit or dies down. So what do you think? I think it's going to be a little different than F1. At least I was bullish on F1 and I don't think it's a total flop at the end of the day because we don't know where F1 is going to be in the future and if there's going to be a huge surge. But the biggest difference I see is what WWE is doing in terms of the business side of things that kind of gives it, I guess, a bullish perspective because for me, it's what has WWE done in the last even 20, 30 years to combat MMA, UFC, and now they've actually partnered up with UFC in terms of the business side of things. But three days ago, I think there was a big announcement, obviously at the beginning of the year, that Netflix signed a 10-year deal with them worth like $5 billion. On the business side of things, WWE has increased in revenue year after year and they're in the billions too. So it's a nine-figure business at the end of the day and they've done a really good job. It's like if you were running WWE in the last 20 years, how would you compete with MMA? How would you get out of especially the whole cycle where their main revenue was TV? So how do you keep it relevant? And I think that's what they've done a really good job from a business standpoint is to pivot out of kind of like the old platform where we grew up to becoming relevant still and still having a massive, massive following and it's increasing year after year. So when I see stuff like even the Netflix deal, how many more millions of people are going to have eyes on WWE? And then you go back to the whole Topps thing with their overall macro lens goal of just collectibles in general. And Panini dropped the ball, obviously they've, for whatever reason, breached their contract that allowed WWE to get out of the contract a year early and sign with Topps. So I think the right marriage is there, to be honest, and I probably truthfully will never rip or collect WWE cards, I have zero interest in it. But I do believe that people love it. It's kind of similar to any other brand such as, you know, Pokemon, F1, you know, whether it's, you know, lifestyle, I think there's a lot of bullish things that allow people to get excited for this. And I don't think it's going to be a flop because, like I said, I think I believe Topps had the contract for many years before this. So Panini, it was the last two, three years that Panini had the contract. And now that Topps has it back, I think there's a lot of bullish signs for WWE. I think the only similarity to F1 will be the first couple of years, it'll be, you know, you have that giant spike in the hype. But WWE, to me, is different because WWE can touch on so many different age segments because of nostalgia, right? Similar to Marvel, like Marvel is immensely popular because of the nostalgia. Same with Disney, right? Like we all watched Hulk Hogan, Ultimate Warrior, Macho Man as kids. And then in the sort of Stone Cold, The Rock era, I don't think there was not one male under 40 that did not watch WWE. Like at that point, you know, right now WDB is back to being a little bit more on the niche side of things. But WWE back then, like in the Stone Cold era, like everybody watched that. So if you're, you know, like there have been Hulk Hogan autos, and I think there was a Steve Austin auto, but you know, this year, The Rock auto is going to come out, like that's going to attract, like the three of us may or may not buy packs, like it's possible we could. We went from I'm not touching WWE to like, hey, I mean, might not, I might be open to like ripping a hobby box to try and chase The Rock. So it's going to capture so many different age segments. So I think WWE, and even moving forward, because it's with Tops, and Tops has now the capability of memorabilia, and you know, like, the whole debut patch idea. It's not just with baseball there. You saw it in MLS soccer, you could see it in WWE, you could see like patch autos of The Rock and it could be... You get like the underwear? Yeah. Game used... Authentic. Game used spandex underwear. Yeah. Authentic sweat mark from his sack. Hey, there's going to be someone that wants it. But um, you know, there's tons of possibilities now, right? Like before, I think the concern with F1 was, you know, like, you know, like, you know, there's tons of possibilities now, right? Like before, I think the concern with F1 was like, okay, after... There's not many rookies that come in year in, year out. It's kind of the same faces every year. And Panini didn't really do much to innovate. Whereas on this side with WWE, they can continually capture, especially on the chase side. I think Tops is now quickly learning what they can do every year to re-up the chase, right? I mean, regardless, characters are the same, same with Marvel. There is something that they can touch on to, you know, get collectors excited about chasing, right? So I think... For sure. I think it'll be different. I think, especially with Tops at the helm again, and you know, WWE is still super strong, like Hyung was saying, like the business and how much money it makes, it's monstrous. So why wouldn't Tops want to really spend some of their R&D and, you know, all of that stuff and marketing into this? So I think WWE is going to be a little bit different. Yeah, I think it's a no brainer for Tops. And I have three main points to highlight why I think it's different than F1. First, you already said it, John, nostalgia, huge factor that I don't think F1 had much of versus wrestling and all the other major sports. Two, North American collectors versus international. We talked about international collectors possibly supporting F1, but we find out that's harder to do, right? And we're going to talk about it in the next segment actually, being an international buyer and seller. It's different from being an American buyer and seller where things are right in your face, easier access and all that. But I think WWE caters more to a North American audience, which I think is a huge benefit. And two, Fanatics slash Tops being involved. Even at Fanatics Fest, they got the wrestlers coming and interacting with the crowd. You don't see that with F1 drivers. We didn't see that at all. And I think Fanatics is going to double down on that. And like I just said earlier in this podcast, the autograph sessions, they're all fully booked before the show even started. Whereas other big time athletes, you could have got their autograph leading up to the first day of Fanatics Fest. And that goes to show you how diehard the fans are as well. It's crazy. Like people are totally dressed up as their favorite wrestler and yeah, you know what I mean? Like it's insane just having experienced that myself at Fanfest. So I think for those main three reasons, wrestling cards are just going to continue to grow. And I'm excited to see what happens with it. Because on the surface, the reason why I phrased it that way, and I knew that you guys would feel the same way, but on the surface, it looks similar, right? You got the Netflix special, you got this niche kind of sport. How will it translate into the hobby? And so that's an interesting discussion to be had, but I guess we'll see. But I'm pretty confident that wrestling will be a lot different than F1. And I think Fanatics, what they're just recognizing is kind of like culture. Everything is selling culture at the end of the day and how well they could get the culture to buy into collectibles. So maybe F1, they didn't do a good job with that. Whereas, you know, you look at Marvel, you look at Pokemon, you look at all these, I know it's different, but why are these brands successful at the end of the day? You're selling culture at the end of the day. And I think that's the most important thing. And that's what we're seeing in baseball too, and all these other sports is, at the end of the day, who are the collectors? It's the people that are diehard fans at the end of the day. So if you could merge that gap of collectors, and I know we're talking in this next segment about international, I think that is going to change too, the scope of landscape. So right now, yes, over the last 20 years, it's been dominated by the western part of the world. But like I said, where our world is going right now and how fast and rapidly technology is changing, I think those things where, oh, I have shipping issues from Japan to Toronto, I think those things are going to change. So if those infrastructure things change, how does the whole scope of the landscape look? So it'll be interesting, I think, because we've entered a new era where technology is rampantly increasing, and we don't know what's in play yet. So for me, it's an open canvas, and I think it'll be very interesting to see where fanatics can take this new partnership. Yeah, 100%. And I think that's a perfect segue for our next segment, hobby headlines. So like Kyung was saying, big news for, especially for all of us international collectors, i.e. non-Americans, but PSA, the leading grading company, announced that for 2025, there are definitive plans to expand outside of the US with an expanded operation in Canada, moving their base from Halifax, which is the east coast here, to Toronto, biggest city in Canada, in Europe, including a submission center in Germany, and a larger facility in Tokyo. So in an interview in The Athletic with PSA president Ryan Hogue, he didn't give any firm timelines, but he did mention the Tokyo expansion would happen within the first three months of 2025. So to me, that sounds like a play to gain more of the TCG collectors to grade with PSA abroad. But before I get your thoughts, Kyung and John, if you're a listener from the States, which is the majority of you, according to our data, before you tune out, why I think this is significant for the hobby overall is that with less barriers to grading internationally, I would think that would entice more collectors slash investors to the hobby, and more people in the hobby means more people you can buy, sell, and trade from. So bottom line, everyone, I think, should be excited about this new development. What about you guys? Initial thoughts? And I'll go over some of the key points in the article that we can have more of a discussion on. Yeah, no, I think it's inevitable. We did have a PSA Canada, Brad Hartland ran that out in Halifax. So it was a matter of time before the market was big enough, the demand was there where you need a physical location, and eventually, hopefully, operations, because I still do believe that the cards will still be shipped to California. So I would like to see PSA Canada be individual in terms of operations so that it follows the same standards as California, but it doesn't have to be shipped. I think these are the little things that, from a business standpoint, how can you... service the customers better and I think it's inevitable that and it to me it's it's such a good bullish sign of just the sports card market like to me opening up in Tokyo massive like again culture if you could connect that Japanese culture with now PSA as a brand and PSA becomes a huge popular brand in in the East Coast even in Korea like I think all that's gonna change as well where it is gonna be a global you know industry now and that's their intention is they've they've had the proof of concept here in the West Coast right in West Coast I mean North America so you have the model to replicate so it's all about you know expansion and vertical growth right so to me they're doing exactly what should have been done earlier but I'm just glad that they're doing it because it seems like they have a good idea of how now they could do it efficiently with a solid background of the business that's already established so for me as a collector I would love to go in and drop my cards off and not worry about anything else like instead of me submitting myself me having to track it worry about it and then it's all on me especially if I'm submitting for like friends and stuff right like then you do a hundred card submission that's worth like 20 30 grand and you're like kind of like did PSA receive it or not you know you hear all these horror stories that hopefully it doesn't happen to you but those are the things that I think it gives peace of mind to people that there is something local so to me great news especially in Canada it's in Toronto I believe it's gonna be the hub which which makes total sense there's a massive collectors you know in Toronto so it makes sense from a business standpoint but even from a consumer standpoint it's something that I look forward to because it will make my process a lot easier yeah for sure I think we're a little biased because the Toronto news it's in our wheelhouse so it certainly benefits us living in Toronto and for folks who are living in Germany or Tokyo like it's gonna benefit them by far the most so so we can be a little biased but I mean it's a great sign of you know your thoughts on the hobby and expansion and going forward well how's the hobby look I mean if PSA is like investing into you know locations physical locations in many different cities that's a great sign of where the hobby is heading and I mean I think everyone can organically sense where the hobby is going like it's it's you know every card show local big card shows that you attend I would guess for most people would probably say man that show was it was popping like there's so many people there and it seems to be the sentiment throughout all of America so I think it's it's a great sign and for those that live in these particular series cities I mean especially for big collectors there's no better assurance you know that I'm gonna submit a $20,000 card now I can go direct like that's you know I could even I don't know if this is true but yeah I could even see you know in the past people flying out to Jersey or wherever the submission center was just to submit it hand submit like a big card rather than send it through pure later or whatever right so spending that you know a thousand bucks on a on a flight would be worth it for them so yeah this is this is this great news for sure for sure no and to that last point I don't know if you anyone heard the our first season 5 premiere episode where I have my two of my friends from the original five card guys and they said in that interview they consider flying me out to golden to drop off the one soda because they're really nervous and you know you know but then we ended up just doing FedEx overnight and thankfully it got there safely but you know that these are things that as international sellers were worried about I think you know other collectors in the States don't really have to think about as much and I think Ryan Hogue speaks to that in this quote I'll just read right now in the athletic he says it's going to be a bigger operation that's going to actually allow customers to submit cards directly there in Canada we're going to have the technology behind it too so they'll have a tailored mobile and a web experience with a unique shipping address so the customers don't have to navigate customs and deal with taxes and all of that amazing and huge right huge huge and then you could you could see where this is going to because if if PSA is investing in vault services and you know selling direct you know with the marketplace and stuff like that it solidifies that infrastructure of kind of like hey maybe you don't have to it's it's more localized where they could do more deals more efficiently it's cheaper if they have multiple locations worldwide right so they have a network of infrastructure within the world where they could now do what they need to do like the PSA vault the marketplace and whatever they're gonna dabble into yeah for sure and you know whenever the Toronto office opens up I mean now I'll have more than two days to submit big cards so usually I just wait for the Expo because for that reason I just go to the PSA booth and I want to drop it off in person now if there's an office where you could just directly submit it that's amazing but it makes business sense kind of what you were alluding to young earlier it makes business sense for PSA to do this because a big reason why they're expanding operations in Canada is what Ryan Hogue says here quote we have seen faster growth rates 50% year-over-year growth from Canada which is higher than the business overall is growing and then the vast majority of card types that we're seeing from Canada hockey far and away is the number one category that we see from that market but there's interest in other sports and TCG's like Pokemon cards as well coming from that market end quote it's all Roy so Roy is propping up the TCG market for Canadians but I mean that goes to show the diversity of the type of card collectors we have and and obviously hockey card collectors being number one in Canada it's not a huge surprise but I feel like even at we set this at the last Expo it just seems to be growing in other sports as well and especially TCG for sure all right one conundrum if we if you read the article if you continue to read the article is that the growth in the number of cards submitted to PSA could potentially mean higher grades for big cards right particularly in vintage just because of the volume but the increase in pop counts could also decrease values of previously graded cards as supply increases any thoughts on that well I think it would that's why for for people who've gotten early I think if you tackled the rare cards to begin with in the I guess the pre-kovat era I think it gives you even more assurance because they're not printing those anymore they're not you're not seeing those cards being graded it's more the modern card so I feel like like of course pop counts are gonna go up just in general but I don't think in the right cards at least the the the cards that you consider an investment for instance where it's not too modern like design Williamson's and stuff like that it's more kind of like the Otani's the Lucas that the the guys who are the next generation of stars those pop counts aren't gonna change really because you know what you see out there is what what the population is right so for me it's definitely something to be concerned about and that's gonna obviously increase as tops and fanatics are printing more as well so there's gonna be a lot more graded cards out there but truly as we see it's like there's a lot of stuff that's not worth anything right that's out there so I think that's not gonna change if anything more is gonna appear of that and but the the cards that are worth what they're worth will always sustain based on supply and demand so I don't think the the the valued cards the right valued cards are necessarily gonna increase if anything I could see a surge in demand because the the fundamentals are there that keep that value where it is right so so you don't think there's gonna be a Gretzky OPG PSA 10 anytime soon I don't think so I don't I think we had already seen it right we would have already seen the mantles we are already seen and it by luck maybe somebody finds one in an attic that's absolutely and yeah you'll have one or two pop up because you know people run into it but in terms of production I think I don't think anybody's holding out I think people who would have had it already would have submitted it and you're seeing that more and more I see that on on the forums like hey I found this card in my attic and you know it looks really good and people are like oh it's fake it's like no but there are stories there where they're legit it's like this guy just got into sports card after finding out the massive surge in sports cards and he found an absolutely mint Jordan 86 flair that is just in his binder still so I think you you see that in general more and more so I think that's not gonna change I think if anything more and more of that will increase but I don't think PSA that is giving out tens like like they do you know on modern cards so it's it's definitely a pop pop control as well yeah I don't know if I have too many concerns about things like pop control and you know like an office opens up in Germany to all these cards out of Germany will start like pop council out of Europe coming out like crazy I don't think that's really a big concern to be honest because if young was saying like supply and demand if it's you know if it's balanced it should equal right so if there's more submissions happening as a result that also probably means there's more interest kind of growing as well so then the demand it should match right the real issue is if tops and panini start over printing like the junk junk wax era right that's a bigger issue so if they start over printing everything like crazy then you end up with a whole bunch of of junk right but in terms of how it how it stands right now I don't I don't I probably a good thing and to be honest you know like a submission submission center in Europe like that might help the f1 market because now people because that grows like the its own economy in that area right like now people can start trading slabs rather than being like man I sat on like 500 cards I never submitted it because just so expensive to submit it and you know and it just doesn't the ecosystem doesn't quite work out but now that it's there it could actually grow certain international and then you know obviously I mean I don't think Pokemon needs to grow any further than Tokyo but yeah well you guys you guys know what I'm saying yeah for sure and and actually that's a good segue because I want to talk about the European expansion and the reason why they're talking about a submission center in Germany is because they've seen tremendous growth there in volume so here's another quote from Ryan Hogue quote but again similar to Canada I think there's just a lot of friction and concerns that you're having to ship overseas maybe you're not comfortable working through a partner network you'd rather deal directly with PSA end quote so it's something we've already touched upon just right now so my next question is do you think the natural next step is to make buying and selling from international sellers and buyers and collectors safer because honestly even for me right now if I'm on eBay and I see that the buyer is from outside of North America I'm kind of hesitant to buy from you know I mean like I look for a North American seller first and I'll pay a little bit more just for peace of mind right so you know and I believe the authenticity guarantee from eBay's only applies to North America it's not or I think US US I've never even dealt with that ever which is crazy in Canada in Canada yeah I ship to the US all the time and I it bypasses the authenticity which is crazy yeah it's insane I submitted to eBay's authenticity guarantee program which is more peace of mind for me too as a as a seller but anyway the whole point is is that the next step do you think you know for international sellers where one day we do go on eBay we're like oh the guys from Germany yeah it's fine yeah no 100% because if you look at it just from a like a business perspective and you're running you're running the show and you hear and you see all these problems that like for instance if it's Germany and they have issues with you know purchasing and shipping and there's all this cost you as a leader of whatever industry and whether it's PSA whether it's fanatics you want to tackle those problems because if you solve those problems the money is at the end of the rainbow right so this is what a good leader would do is that you would address the issues of why there's there's no growth in Europe or there's little growth in Europe with huge potential and then you audit it and you say okay these are the issues of why it's not moving the way it can move right and then you do whatever you have to do with your resources to solve that issue and that's the beauty of it is if you look at it just strictly from that point of view then it's it's very transparent if you look at it in kind of like I'm in this thing and I don't like this I don't like that and this sucks and this sucks you're you'll never see kind of like that bigger picture that we always talk about so for me it it's inevitable you have to if you want to go to where they claim they want to go you have to tackle on the issues that aren't allowing us to be there right now which they're doing so for me it's it goes moving like fanatics to be honest like every every barrier to collecting hobby and making it smooth they've been doing it right GameStop and recently Facebook and the eBay vault you know like the the partnerships and all of that stuff and then these submission centers everything's just gonna get smoother and smoother that I think the real question becomes like why would you now at this point grade with anybody other than PSA there. They're even going to destroy their own, you know, own brand as you see, I could see that getting swallowed up, you know, back it I there's like almost no hope at this point, even if a savior, you know, I think the buyer did come in, but there's a PSA is just gonna, this is like, the reveal of their future dominance. Like, I don't think it's going to make it make it make it so easy for collectors to use PSA. There's just so much value added, why would you do it? Do it with anybody else? At this point? Yeah. And that's funny you mentioned that, because I'm going to come back to that question about competition. But one thought before I forget, with just this whole kind of integration of grading internationally, vaulting, I think that's going to be a huge thing where if you think about it, if you grade with PSA internationally, if there's a submission center closer to you, and you could do it more safely, then you could just have that card vaulted with PSA. And you know, PSA is working with eBay as well, right? So this whole thing about safety in terms of buying from international sellers, you're buying from a German seller, for example, but it's vaulted in the US, and you don't even have ever have to take it out. But you have ownership, right? And, and, you know, we joke that NFT is a dirty word, but it's kind of like that where, you know, you don't really physically have in your hand, and you could get a shipped out to you if you want to hold it. And you trust PSA to do that safely, instead of, you know, a random dealer from abroad. So it's such a no brainer in terms of making things safer. And that's how you increase the hobby in that sense, where, you know, I'm sure there's a lot of potential collectors out there that get into it, and they find out, oh, wait, I got a ship overseas. How much does it cost? Is it going to get there safely? Like all these questions, which are prohibitive to anyone to really taking that deep dive into the hobby? For sure. No, that's that's the infrastructure thing that we were talking about just earlier. It's like, if you establish that infrastructure that allows a user in Germany or Japan to do that, like, that's massive for the end consumer at the end of the day. And you're solving that issue that every collector has, even we had, right, we we struggle with that every day. And now, if we have a local PSA, it now gives us different options that allow us to do whatever we want, based on not on the problems, but based on what is available now. So for me, it's a it's a win win situation from a branding side of business growth in the hobby, and as well as a consumer perspective of us wanting to be more involved, but we can't because of logistical hurdles. Yeah, no, for sure. And it's great news for us Canadians that aren't regular hockey card collectors, because then we have a larger base to buy sell from, especially if you're a baseball card or basketball card collector. I know you mentioned this, John, about, you know, with this international hub or submission center, F1 potentially getting a little bump, because, you know, it's it's more of an international audience. But I don't know if that's going to happen. But I'm more much more bullish on the soccer card market now. Right. So do you think there's a play there? Where, you know, especially, you know, we do have soccer fans here in North America, but definitely not as many abroad. So do you think there's a play for soccer cards in the near future? Yeah. Yeah, 100%. I think the the big the big point or the turning point was Messi to MLS. Right. It totally reminds me of Gretzky going to the LA Kings back in the day and just igniting hockey in the States. Right. So that alone put eyes on like, I mean, soccer, people are into soccer regardless. But I think Messi is bringing soccer to the masses and interest in a little bit of a different way. Like MLS is pretty, pretty popular. I mean, it's a it's not one of the big leagues in the world, but in North America, it's starting to be pretty popular. So I think, yeah, absolutely. If PSA, if sports card collecting in Europe starts to really take off, like it did in North America, I mean, the sky's the limit for soccer, soccer, you know, like that could become easily the biggest. Yeah. Of the big, big sports. There's no question. Yeah, it's truly global. Yeah, soccer is truly global. And that's what I mean. Like if PSA makes it easier for more soccer collectors to get into the hobby, we have more potential buyers and sellers for for soccer cards in general, right, even if you're here in North America. And I think it's it goes back to fanatics, because I think they're the marketing pushers as opposed to PSA, where PSA is the solution to be able to, you know, execute logistically. So from from a standpoint, like think what they did, when we talked about this, because we are in the back in the front seat of, you know, how fanatics was marketing baseball here, right, and how that ties into sports cards. So they haven't done any of that with the European market in soccer. So if they have, like Ronaldo, or they have these big time names, where now they're doing marketing fanatics is doing marketing and exclusive deals. But the infrastructure is not there to capitalize, they wouldn't do it. But if the infrastructure was there to capitalize, and now they take the blueprint of what they're doing from a marketing standpoint in baseball, and basketball and other sports, and implement it in the European markets. That's, that's going to be the driving force is the marketing and then PSA allows them to actually logistically do whatever is the monetization from that whole process, right. So for me, it's it's fanatics, it's going to be up to them to be able to market because they're the marketing geniuses. I don't think PSA is the marketing genius. PSA is more the logistical operations that allow them to monetize and capitalize. But it's on fanatics at this point. I agree. I agree. Just wondering if we should have held on to our sunny national landmarks card now. I know, you know, it's, you know, it's funny. I mentioned you guys sold those. I even I sold mine. I sold mine to super clay. I did well on it. So like, yeah, nice. You know, what's funny, especially with john's reaction, I was talking to Roy, because another story I'll share at another time, but I sold my Mike trout as well. But then Roy helped me ship it out. And I said, Yeah, it's kind of like the sunny that I saw, I actually sold mine as well. After young sold, and Roy's like, Wait, am I the only one with a sunny card between the between our group? And then he checked the prices. I think it's gone down. But yeah, anyway, I probably helped your comp, man, because I went way above comp, almost double comp on a buy it now. Really? So that was how to do that? Well, no, no, no. But that's what I'm saying. It was like, the comps are so low, they're like 1300 or something. And then I, I didn't want to put it on bids or anything, because people would go off off the last comp. So I listed for like 2200 or something by now, and somebody just bought bought it just straight up. And then that's helped me. That's the that was the comp that you use probably because you're yours was probably next. Yeah, I was I bought it for 17. I think I broke even when I didn't lose. Yeah, perfect. Yeah, yeah. There you go. Sorry, Roy. So he's like, you guys. Anyway, um, all right, one more quote. And this is an analysis from the writer of the article. So it's not from Ryan Hogue, but from the reporter, he writes, quote, a more robust global network could also present the ability to facilitate easier buying and selling between PSA customers in different parts of the world. This is an industry that requires the frequent exchange of physical goods between a large number of people. The logistics of that can be an inhibitor to growth, especially globally, the potential to reduce that friction is meaningful. So that's everything we've been saying, just in the segment alone. So my question is, and this is what I was talking about, john, returning to what you're saying about competition, what do you think this actually means for other grading companies? Like what can they do to compete with PSA other than opening globally as well, which you know, might not be possible for, you know, BGS, because they don't have the cash flow. Do you know what I mean? Like, is there anything else they can do? Or are we saying PSA? Yep, they just won. You know, I don't think so. I think there's so much brand value in Beckett still. And I'm glad that somebody did take the initiative step to, you know, purchase it because I think there's massive opportunity because if you're looking at it as like an opportunity perspective, if PSA and fanatics and all these brands are growing the market, why would you not want to buy something already established with an amazing brand? And if the industry is growing, that's just more opportunity for for Beckett, right? So to me, it's like Coke could never be Coke without Pepsi. And it's still the battle of, you know, the push and there's really nobody that's challenging PSA at this level. So I think Beckett would be the next kind of like a brand because SGC is in house to with PSA. So for me, it's a great opportunity for Beckett, you want to be Beckett at this time, because now you could have a blank canvas, because things are going to change. Like, like I said, you don't want to invest in an infrastructure that was outdated, like 10 years ago, and try to implement it. And I feel like that's what Beckett was doing is they didn't have the infrastructure to grow. But if you have a fast forward mind of thinking of the possibilities, and I bring this up, because it's more transparent, actually, to me, we don't know where this market's gonna go. Because of technology. We don't know how grading is going to look because of technology. We don't know how global transactions are going to look because of technology. We don't know how crypto and NFTs are going to influence the collectibles space because it fully hasn't developed. Right. So these are things that yeah, people might say, oh, NFTs are a thing of, you know, four years ago. No, it's like, we're talking technology that has not been put into play. And we don't know how that's going to look, especially now in the times we're at, we're, we've totally shifted paradigm, we've totally shifted, like, the way the world operates, and we haven't seen it come to play in yet. We're starting to see that right now, because AI is growing, we don't know how that's going to be implemented. So it's so tough to say that it's this way, I guarantee you PSA scratching their head in terms of, well, in three years, we don't even know where we're going to be. Because as technology increases, we don't know how that's going to be implemented in our future in terms of the global marketplace. Right. So for me, it's it's a blank canvas that people are starting to draw on. Beckett's in a really, really good spot right now. If you that's why I always told you, it's like, we should have bought Beckett if we could have fundraised the money, because there's so much opportunity in terms of one, you don't have to restart, you wouldn't be able to restart a grading company from scratch. Like we seen it, it's like, you're not going to move the needle, you would have to take a broken ship that has the fundamentals, like brand value, history, nostalgia, all these things that are, you know, I would say intangible assets. And now use those intangible assets now to grow based on kind of like the fundamentals and economics and technology of kind of like what society is presenting at the time, right? So yeah, that's well said. Yeah, man, young songs too nice. For me, I don't. I don't know if there's any truth, but I don't know if there's anything like, I think we all agree back, it has brand value. There's no question, right? The name Beckett. They're still looked upon, if you look at a Beckett slab, you're still trusting the grade, right? That's why when people buy, you know, true gem nine fives, they're really excited to try and cross it over to PSA. The reason why, because Beckett's still really good at grading and they trust them as graders and they still have that brand value. Now, how are they going to stay afloat? And they did get bought out, right? They got better. Yeah. Yes. I don't know who, like, I don't know anything about the company that bought them out, but whoever that company is, it can't be just somebody's Joe Schmo. Like at this point, Beckett's going to need a real like influx of monies to like write the ship, right? Because you can't just, like Xiong is talking about, like there's an angle of maybe AI technology and all that stuff that can overtake and maybe beat PSA. Yes, I agree with that. I think there is, but you're going to need some real capital on that. You need capital. And I think Beckett Beckett is the brand that can fundraise. Like it's an easy sell for any investor that has like that kind of money to say, okay, where does the marketplace look like? Cause right now the sports card marketplace is at about a 13 million, $13 billion cap by 2030. So even like five to seven years, they're projecting it to double. So from an S somebody who has the money, they see everything that Beckett has, and then they see the potential of the marketplace itself. And this is where the capital starts being no different than what Michael Rubin did, right? He's seen the sports card market, the opportunity, and what is he doing? He's trying to monopolize, not monopolize, but it's monopolizing it. But that's what the second person like a brand like Beckett would do is now it's their job to fundraise, see the potential. Now go head to head with PSA, whatever that looks like. So if they have to raise, you know, $500 million now, I think it's doable for them based on what $500 million investment can be in the near future. Right. So, yeah, I think one last year, I think Beckett saving grace right now is TCG. Like if I were them, I would be moving it all in on TCG over sports cards because I think what keeps them alive is the prospect of getting black label and black label generally in sports cards is incredibly difficult. But from what I've seen, it's a lot more likely in like something like Pokemon. Like I've seen I've seen videos of guys exhibiting thousands of cards attempting to get black labels because the odds of getting the black label is a lot better in TCG and also the return on it on the investment is huge. It's still. like a, I don't know what it is. Like Roy can answer it by 5X, 10X multiplier. So I would think it's still alive and well. Like if you look at the Beckett submission numbers, I would think a lot of that is TCG over sports cards, I'm guessing. So anyway, this is just a thought. No, it's funny you mentioned that because one of my other hobby resolutions which I shared on the last part of the year was to get on a black label and you know, Will and Daryl were joking that, like, oh, that's not that hard. But I don't want any, just any black label. You don't want a Kevin Maitan. Daryl, I'm not gonna buy it off you, okay? I'm saying it on the part. I'm not gonna buy it off you. But to your point, John, like the one I was actually looking at is like this Pokemon, Roy will appreciate it, this Pikachu stamp box. And I looked at the black label, it's like 1,000 bucks, 1,100. And the pop count's about 300. So like to your point, I'm like, whoa, 300 for a black label, that's high, right? But I mean, if you compare that to sports cards, it's definitely high. But I guess, yeah, like we were saying, for Pokemon, it's easier to get. So I guess that makes it in a way more affordable too. So I wouldn't mind. I hate to pay for the grade of a card, but I do like the look of the black label. And again, to your point, black label is, yeah, probably Beckett's one saving grace. And yeah, what you were saying, Hyung too, makes sense to me in terms of the technology. And I think that's why, although PSA just definitely has a super strong hold right now in the grading space, anything can change over time and rather quickly because of technology. And I think for smaller competitors like Beckett and even CDC to an extent, their major benefit is their agility. With a bigger company, you're slower to move. And if you can move fast and go to where the next trend is and you can capitalize on that, that's how you start to grow almost exponentially if you can execute. So I think, yes, you need capital, but I think you also need the right leadership in place too. So I think both of those go hand in hand to being a bonafide competitor with giants like PSA right now. And then if you look back and maybe this was strategic, but right before Beckett was purchased, the highest Otani auto to date, I believe, is the black label orange auto for 533, right? So to me, whether that was Beckett bought it and then someone from- Just give it a black. Just give it a black label. Well, think about it. It's like that sold, it gave relevance to, wow, this is the highest Otani card sold, not accusing anybody of anything and then Beckett was purchased. So was that a intentional move saying, you know, like Beckett is still relevant because now the highest Otani auto card was a black label, right? So, but there's that. Are you saying that BGI should start marketing to high-end dealers? So hey, great with us, you'll be really happy. Well, an Otani auto is sold for $533,000 and that was like four times more than kind of like a PSA 10 version. So it is a massive sale for them, which like is interesting because the timing of everything was very interesting. And then Beckett was bought shortly after. So I don't know if it was a marketing stunt or, you know, but that's huge. It's huge to have a black label Otani auto sell for that much. There you go. I think we can all agree on that. All right, yeah. If you want to read the article, I'll put the link in our show notes below. It's in the athletic, a great read. And yeah, just makes us international sellers and buyers and collectors really excited for what's in store, especially for this coming year. All right, let's move on to our next segment. We call it quiz show. All right, we haven't done this in a while cause we've been having so much fun with blind rankings, but this is just a straight up quiz show where I ask you guys four or five questions and then you answer them the best you can. All right. So the first two questions, actually, yeah, the first two or three questions are based from the article. So the first one, as of January 5th this year, how many hockey cards have been graded by PSA all time? And I'll give you some multiple choice answers. About 500,000 A, B over 1 million, C over 2 million, D over 3 million. Wow. I don't know, John, you want to take a stab at this? I have no idea. 20 million cards graded. What were the answers? 500 million. I'm looking at the notes, 20 million cards graded in 2024. I would say two thirds of that is probably PSA, right? So they graded, I don't know. What's the actual number? Like 15 million or something like that? Okay. Yeah, I mean, I'm talking about PSA all time. All time, yeah. So even in like one year. All time hockey. I don't know. But what percentage is hockey in that mix, right? Is it a 1%? Is it 5%? Is it 10%? Probably closer to like 1% to 5%, I would assume because baseball, basketball becomes. Most of the millions have grown in the last little while. Hockey base is not as popular. Like young guns aren't printed as much as like a prison base. But it's gotta be in the millions. I'll say, I don't know though. Clark likes to be tricky. It's gonna be either 500 or 3 million or something like that. Like one and two, I was thinking about saying one and two. I feel like Clark, those are just thrown in there for the sake of throwing in there. Let's go with three. Over three. Over 3 million, D? Over three. Okay. I'm gonna go with, what was B? Over 1 million. I'm gonna say over 1 million. I think, yeah, I don't see it, not yet. But I think the potential's there. Yeah, for sure. I love it. I love how you guys talk to yourself and, you know, rethink. Mind through dust. Yeah, everything. The correct answer is C, over 2 million, actually. So we're right between, it was good. Me and John, we talked it out. John should have gone with his gut, but then he talked himself out of it, you know? You gotta go with your gut. There are more than 2.67 million hockey cards graded by PSA all time as of January 5th this year. A number, they say, that could rapidly grow by leaps and bounds as a result of the expansion of PSA into Canada, right? So, okay, number two. Topps has their European operations in what country? A, Germany, B, the UK, C, France, or D, Andorra? This is a trick question. That is a trick question. But I'm gonna say UK. I'm gonna say UK. I see a lot of, like, Topps release with UK, so I'm gonna say UK. Not, yeah. What was it, Germany, UK, France? France, UK. Germany, UK, France, Andorra. Andorra. Andorra, that's so random. What is that the answer? Let me see the taxes here. Maybe it's like a tax shelter or something. You don't have to search it up. It's the lowest tax rate in Europe. There you go. Now I wanna say Andorra. Final answer. Final answer, Andorra. You're changing to Andorra? Okay, wow. Yeah, I'm gonna go with France. No reason, I'm just like completely guessing. All right, the correct answer is it's in Frankfurt, Germany. Oh, interesting. That was tough. Oh, man. I knew someone was gonna do the research on Andorra. I did. I'll get you that way. I didn't know where Andorra was. You took the bait. Hyung took the bait. I did take the bait. And how'd you know it was the least taxed? I just Googled it, I just Googled it. That's a journalist right there. On the spot, Google. All right, question number three. Actually, three you already answered, so we could skip three, but I was gonna ask you, out of the 20 million cards graded across the four major graders in 2024, PSA, SGC, CGC, and BGS, how many of the 20 million were graded by PSA? And I think, John, you mentioned it's 50 million cards, so that's, you would've got at least one right if that question was asked. So we'll go to the next one. Which sport accounted for the most cards graded last year out of the 20 million? Wow. Which sport accounted for the most cards graded last year? Do we get multiple choice or no? Baseball, basketball, football, hockey. I gotta say baseball still. Really? Well, Tony, oh yeah, well, Tony. Basketball. But then Wemby, Wemby, Wemby had a lot. Wemby and Kaitlyn Clark, that's pretty big too, right? It's either basketball or baseball. I'm gonna go back, oh, football's got a lot too though. Last year, we're just talking 2024? Yeah. Then I'm gonna say basketball. It's the Wemby effect. Yeah, I'll go with basketball too. Correct answer is baseball, 4.21. Trust your gut, man, trust your gut. Trust your gut, this is how you play the game. Trust your gut. That's what this segment should be called. Trust your gut. Right. All right, last question. Of the 20 million, once again, graded last year in 2024, how many of those cards were TCG cards? Two million, four million, six million, eight million. Two million out of 20. Yeah. Two, so that's 10%. And then what was the other one? 2468. 2468. 10%, 20%, 30%, 40%. TCG. This is 20 million cards graded over the four major graders, not just PSA. Right, right, right. But PSA still owns, I would say, the majority, right? Yeah, 50. Eight is almost half of the 20. I feel like TCG is not, they've grown, but not that high. But they're up there, so I'm... I'm gonna go four. My gut, sorry? I'm going with my gut, it's gonna be six. Four and six. The correct answer is eight million. Wow, that's a lot. That's a lot of TCG, man. The TCG category accounted for eight million of the 20 million total, while the top sport, baseball, accounted for 4.2 million. Wow. There's no way to win. It's a bad quiz show for you guys. Bad start of the year, but that's okay. We got the rest of 2025 to improve. Go with your gut next time. It's all about the gut. And then you'll do fine. All right, let's end off this show on a much brighter note with our regular weekly segment we call Pick One. All right, Hyung, you usually start things off. You wanna do it for us today? Sure, so just for the Blue Jays fans, they have to be happy with the off-season moves that the Blue Jays are making. So I'm, and then unfortunately, and I've said this, Vladdy was give him a contract early, lock him in, but we didn't do that. And now, Vladdy wants the world, which makes sense. Just give him the 450 million. Yeah, you could've got him for way cheaper earlier, but I think Vladdy is so underrated still. I think he had such a big bump earlier on. And two of the guys that I think are kind of like the future of baseball with Juan Soto is Bobby Witt Jr. and Vladdy. So I wanna compare the two because I think there's still room to grow for both just based on the output in their first, Bobby Witt's three seasons averaging a five war. He had a 9.4 war last season, which is insane. And I expect Bobby Witt Jr. to be that type of player. High war guy, a lot of home runs, a lot of stolen bases, a lot of runs, hit for average. So true five tool player, which you don't see. He's gonna play a pretty good defense that allows that war to be always in that upper tier. And I'm looking forward to Bobby Witt Jr. potentially winning MVP before Juan Soto, which is crazy. But I think Bobby Witt has potential. I think Vlad has potential. So I'm gonna pair the two. Two cards sold for $2,500 or just near that marker. Where would you spend your $2,500? Would you go with a 2020 Bowman Chrome, Bobby Witt Jr. Speckle Fractor? So out of 299, a PSA 10 sold recently for 2,500 just late December. Auto or non-auto? It's auto. These are both autos. So Bowman first Chromes. And I know you guys don't like speckles. So I paired that up with another parallel. You don't like a green. Vladdy Guerrero Jr. A BGS nine five, which is a min gem auto 10. 2016 Bowman Chrome, Vlad Jr. auto out of 99, a green refractor. Sold for 2,400, just under 24. So we're talking just say $2,500 budget. I wanna invest this year, not long-term, this year of who I believe card has a better potential value. Is it the Vladdy green out of 99 or is it the Speckle Bobby Witt Jr. out of 299? I could go first. Maybe this is a hometown bias. Probably is a hometown bias. But I'm gonna go with Vladdy. A, it's not Speckle. B, it's a number to 99, right? Because it's a green. And C, I just think the news, if you were talking about short-term, he's gonna get that huge contract from some team. I don't know if it's a J's. I hope it's a J's, but things don't look good right now. But I think that news will bump up his value, especially if he repeats what he did this past year, which we're all hoping for. So those three reasons I'm going with Vladdy. Nice, what about you, John? Yeah, I think conventional wisdom, I gotta go with Vladdy because you've got like a, impressed value in Vladi even though he had a great season and I think there's just opportunity for especially I mean it's well documented what happens when you're in sort of like that contract building year that people all of a sudden magically play their best their best sports so or their best baseball or best hockey or whatever you're talking about so I think it just makes all the world in terms of sense one year upside it makes sense now obviously the other side man Bobby Witt had a huge year I think it's a bit of a high for him and I to be honest if he continues that war war path you know it's going to be great and I think that's where the value is going to lie for him but it'll be tough to repeat so I think I like Bobby Witt long term because I like this trajectory of him kind of you know morphing into like the next Mookie Betts like that type of player so I like him long term but if you're just talking one year upside I think there's a play on body nice I'm going to go the opposite way actually I'm going to go with Bobby Witt I I believe that he he has yet to I mean last year was was a glimpse of his potential I think first two years you give you give him kind of like that so it's like that's the standard he's at he's in the standard of Acuna Soto and I think Vlad can get there but he's going to have to really hit he's going to have to hit do what he did in 2021 or I forgot what year was the year he he was runner-up for MVP and I I'm bullish on Vlad I think Toronto should assign him like you're not going to get you know that kind of bat from anyone like we expect everybody to be like Soto Vlad it's like these guys are generational talent so for me it's like Vlad he's a generational talent in terms of an 80 type hitter in the big leagues like you don't get same with Bobby Witt you don't get these type of players every year but we expect them because we prospect them right so for me Bobby Witt Jr. is kind of like if you said who's the next Mike Trout it might be Bobby Witt Jr. like obviously the power is not as as big but you know in terms of production in terms of longevity and you know that at least the next you know four or five years but and you got to remember Bobby Witt Jr. did this on a team last year where he was 23 years old that Casey wasn't supposed to be as good as they were yeah and now they're adding the the layers that they need to to support Bobby Witt Jr. in that team I really like the marriage where where Bobby Witt is and I don't think the team will like how we always say oh Colorado or the Sacramento Kings like that makes like Kansas City not demanding I think that stuff is gone now where if you become a superstar and we've seen it with Otani at the end of the day teams are going to pay they're willing to pay massive massive amounts of money on these contracts so it goes hand in hand so I'm I'm very bullish on Bobby Witt Jr. I think he's overpriced though right now still I think Vladdy is the better buy in terms of that but I think Bobby Witt Jr. justifies that inflated price so I'm going to go Bobby Witt Jr. because it's a PSA 10 I think if if he does what he's capable of he does it last year I think that card's increasing you know pretty decently so I'm going to go Bobby Witt makes sense come on yeah I love Bobby Witt long term as well all right John all right boys we got 2023 crown royale Kaboom Wemby famous for having really bad quality issues so a PSA 8 which is if if anybody collects that year's Kaboom is considered a great grade no PSA 10s right I don't believe so I don't even know maybe a PSA 9 couple PSA 9s maybe yeah so the last one sold for 7,700 USD I'm gonna pair that and really I'm just trying to pair it up with I'm gonna pair it up with Michael like a 90s insert Michael Jordan and I it could be any but I chose one that was similar price so that it's a 92 stadium club beam team PSA 10 that sold for 8k but really the the the crux of this question is the best of 90s insert which is Jordan versus the best of modern insert which is probably at this point is the right so that's the real meat and potatoes of the question but for the sake of visualization we're going to make it the Kaboom PSA 8 Wemby about the same price versus the MJ beam team PSA 10 do you know what the pop count is on the dream team I do not oh man you know I'm like I added I don't know if you saw my Instagram story but I added two things to my hobby resolutions in 2025 one of them was trying to get an Otani auto the other one was trying to get a Wemby auto like I am just all in on Wemby you know it's like well you remember when we initially talked about him a couple years ago we're like he's an injury risk because of his body stature and right and I think I saw one of his stats where like his numbers career numbers even right now is just ridiculous you know what he's been able to do yeah in like less than two full seasons right I'm like wow this guy's incredible so I'm just I'm all in on Wemby so I look at that card I'm like yeah I kind of want it I'm not even a big Kaboom guy but I kind of want this Wemby card but but I don't know if I could turn down the beam team beam team I grew up with again it's probably nostalgia right it's a Jordan card you know I don't have any Jordan cards and um PSA 10 so I think that gives us a slight edge over the Wemby because I feel like eventually there will be a few more higher graded PSA 8s and I think that'll depress the value of the Wemby card so I'm going with MJ that's a logical answer we know which we know where I yeah like I for me for me or that that that actually might be the emotional answer like in terms of nostalgia the logical answer might be Wemby in terms of market logic right so for me yeah before I get flamed because this it's always the case when we when we when we go to like for instance that Jackie Robinson one we did people are like are you insane like why would you not pick the Jackie but I see the other side too I see why modern cards are so valuable and it goes hand in hand with what we believe pushes any marketplace which is relevancy and and marketing so to me Wemby is in the spotlight and I know we laughed when I said you know the Spurs are going to be a playoff team I still think that they can be you know sneak in you know by the season's end you know to make to make a playoff spot and it's a testament to kind of like Wemby at the end of the day so for me having the spotlight and him doing what he's doing on a daily basis like it's insane like and he's still young so he's going to be breaking records I'm telling you he's going to be breaking a lot of records so for me that Kaboom card becomes kind of like where's this going to go how stupid are people are going to be to pay so much money for Wemby cards I'm the one who's going to be selling it so for me it's it's Wemby it's seriously it's uh it's I don't think especially the Kaboom brand I think over the past years we've seen kind of like the liquidity and the demand for Kabooms downtowns all those you know inserts that we could say from a hobby logic perspective it's like they're stupid right overprinted or over demanded but the market doesn't care at the end of the day so for me if I'm looking at it that perspective which I have been because I always say I want this for my pc and then I end up selling it I realize I want something else for my pc so and I don't think that trend is going to go in terms of when you find a card that you really want for your collection you're going to pull the trigger that Jordan isn't one of them so for me it's it becomes back to the hobby logic strategy of wherever the marketplace is is I'm going to go with the Wemby I'm it's a short term when when the time's right I would I would take my profits and go elsewhere so Wemby it is all right tiebreaker yeah this one's hard because I think the answer can flip-flop depending on your strategy right so if you if you know if none of these cards are in your pc uh and it's more short term then I think a lot of people probably like liquidity wise and stuff will pick the Webby uh I'm gonna wear my like long-term hat of of the two and and obviously Wemby I think at this point like long term I think people are starting to see it right outside of like injury risk I mean if he continues this path he's he can just walk his way into like one of the all-time greats like that's how ridiculous his physical build and and height and blocking ability all of that stuff is just unprecedented so um I could see the one step so I think for me short term you got you got kind of that kaboom hype and Wemby hype kind of mixed in all together and it's just creating this like you know monstrous product I think long term you know if we're looking at the beginning of this pot talking about the the our long term out of forecast of where sports cards is heading and you know more and more eyes are on it more and more people getting into the hobby you know pop counts all that stuff and we're now getting into like MJ is I feel like he's just one of those characters that are gonna be timeless right like that he's just gonna throughout time is just gonna be popular and I think you're really starting to see the boom of like 90s inserts so there's no real answer I think you can go both ways but man look at the the tiebreaker is I got I feel like we have Cajun cardboard over our heads right now if we have to choose anything other than the beam team he's gonna just be like he's just gonna be rolling around shaking his fist so I don't know I feel like the the safe answer is the beam team even long term I just feel like it's it's such a safe card to be in and you know volatility you might think oh the beam team you know volatility is uh you know it's not as great yada yada yada but remember you Clark you even showed me the graph on some of these Jordan inserts you know selling for four grand one day and then the next month it's selling for 12 grand right so just you just never know what these with the Jordan insert market yeah you never know so I think uh I think the volatility you'd be surprised at it so beam team for me nice all right uh pop count for that beam team is 108 I just checked it up yeah it's not bad all right I'll make this last one quick to end off the show we'll do hockey we'll cover all the sports today uh Alexander Ovechkin 2005 upper deck young guns rookie card PSA 10 sold for 5,500 and on the other side the 2023-24 SP authentic future watch of Connor Bedard PSA 10 also sold for about 5,500 5,700 to be more exact so you're paying the same price five and a half thousand you're choosing the future watch Bedard PSA 10 or the Ovechkin young guns PSA 10 so sorry say that again it was is the future watch auto yes so that 9.99 I'm pretty sure that went down a lot right like uh from original from original hype I guess based on uh I guess Connor Bedard's output so for 8,600 last month it went down to 5,700 in a matter of one month one month I'd like to see that like go lower to be honest because I think it's it's still overpriced and but it's it's I don't like the fact that like I'm not a big young guns PSA 10 Ovechkin like I'd rather have the SP authentic auto of someone that has a potential rather than a base I then I'd rather have the SP authentic auto of Ovechkin for instance like that would be some card that I would want not the young guns PSA 10 because every time even I had the McDavid you know even a BGS 10 a PSA 10 it's just like uh sell right when when the time's right because you're not necessarily married to that card and I've had opportunities to buy like the Crosby future watch auto and then those are the ones you're kicking yourself in the ass that why didn't I pull the trigger but at 5,000 bucks it's still overpriced in in terms of that but because it's a future watch auto and because there was the hype surrounding Bedard it's just a matter of if Bedard is that player can he perform if he performs I think you're going to do well with that Bedard card but that's the question will Bedard perform right so that's and then you have the Ovechkin chase with with with like you know him goal scoring the goal scoring record so you could see a bump with that but five thousand dollars for a young guns is crazy but what what what was the peak of a young guns like the highest ever young guns who would who would that be like uh would it be McDavid no I don't think even McDavid reached that high I feel like Ovi I feel like he's the the highest Ovi at the peak was over 8,000 and uh just last year if you're comparing January 2024 Ovi's young guns was 3,300 so it's gone up so here here's the here's the way I see it with Ovi young guns you won't lose money but I don't know how big the gain would be with with Bedard's future watch auto you could lose a lot of money but you could also get a lot of money so for me we're at that point and I know I'm not in the base game and I'm not here to just make a small percentage I'm going to go with the future watch auto I would rather take the risk of you know Bedard being something rather than you know sell it for eight grand or seven grand you know just being safe so Bedard yeah you know like when we first started talking about Bedard you guys remember like I was like I'm not quite convinced he's like on that kind of generational path and he would he came out like killing it and I was like well maybe he is convincing me and I'm kind of back on you know and it's not not not to say like oh yeah see see I was right not not really that but I just feel like I'm a little bit more convinced that Bedard is more on the A plus superstar level. Like we're talking McKinnon, you know, Austin Matthews, or maybe, you know, some people might be against Austin Matthews, but like in that territory, right? If you're looking old school, like Eisenman, Sackick, and not so much like the Gretzky, Ovechkin, McDavid sort of stratosphere. So I really believe Bedard is gonna be more on the A plus trajectory than generational. So because of that, you really have to start comparing his future. Like his future watch auto should now be start to be compared to people like Nathan McKinnon. So where's that price at? And what is it sitting at? 1,500 or I don't know what the price is sitting at, but I think long-term Kyung's right. I think this question right now, these are two cards that are propped up by hype for their own reasons. I'm not a fan of Young Guns either, to be honest, it's a pretty boring card. It's to spend five grand plus on a Young Guns card seems kind of crazy to me. But this really is a question of now, what's my money safest in? It's no question, it's gotta be Ovechkin, because I think that the Bedard is gonna come down further. Is there a time to buy it and get into it? 100% long-term. I think there is a time to get into it. It's just not now. Like I think I could see the future watch coming down, you know, down to 35, 3000 bucks. And then a handful of years later, being even lower than that. So it's the Ove for me. And I'm not talking long-term. These two cards I would flip sometime immediately, soon. So Ove with the goal-scoring record, it's an easy one. Yeah, I get both your points. If I'm putting myself in this position for real life, I wouldn't be, and remember, I helped create the Ovechkin Young Guns for my friend. And so he's pretty happy that it's at 5,500 right now, US. But I don't, I was never a fan of Young Guns. Like the, kind of to your point, just the design and the look and it being a base card, I never really fully understood the appeal. And understanding everything you guys already mentioned about the future watch out of Bedard, that there's high volatility and risk at play. I honestly, I'd rather still have the future watch auto. And it's gone down from 8,700 to 55. So I'm like, oh, okay. At least in my mind, I could justify it. At least I didn't pay 9,000 for it. So if I might as well just, it would be easier for me to convince myself to buy the future watch auto of Bedard. So that's what I'm going for, Bedard for me. So two to one. But yeah, I thought it was an interesting one V one to start off the new year. All right, thanks guys. We appreciate you listening to our podcast. If you haven't subscribed or followed, we appreciate if you do. And if you gave us five stars, that will be, that'll be great. We'll talk to you again next week for a brand new episode. Hey, thanks for listening to Cards to the Moon. We'd really appreciate you subscribing to our podcast, wherever you listen to your podcasts. And you can also connect with each of us on Instagram at fivecardguys, or you can follow Hyung at integrity sports cards or John at trade you at recess. You can also check us out at fivecardguys.com. Thanks again and hope to connect soon.